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Mary Winkler Getting Bond; Three Men Arrested in Connection with Prince Charles` Investigation on Spying
Aired August 9, 2006 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. A highly popular Tennessee preacher gunned down inside the church parsonage, alleged shooter, the preacher`s wife. And tonight, she is set to walk out of jail free. You heard me right. The defense in court today, fighting to get her confession and the murder weapon, a 12-gauge shotgun, thrown out of evidence, so far out of evidence this jury will never hear about it. And tonight, major security breach, the royal family wiretapped in Great Britain. Why? For a tabloid payoff.
But first, to Tennessee, a preacher`s wife charged with murder, set to walk free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve heard her actually say that she`s sorry for what did happen, but she never, ever said that she was sorry that she done it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Right now, straight to Tennessee. Standing by, WREC reporter Liz Daulton. What are the conditions of bond, Liz?
LIZ DAULTON, WREC: There are several conditions for Mary Winkler`s bond. One is that she must live in McMinville (ph), Tennessee. It`s a relatively small town. She has to work at a local dry cleaner. And she is going to be under the observation of local authorities there.
GRACE: And tell me, how did the defense convince the judge that this woman should make bond?
DAULTON: Well, the defense convinced that she`s not a -- it`s not a capital case, so there is a reason that she can be let out on bond. She`s never committed crime like this before, so the judge issued the bond.
GRACE: Correct me if I`m wrong, Michael Mazzariello, veteran defense attorney, former prosecutor, but aren`t their several criteria the judge looks at to determine bond, including flight risk? This woman just got dragged back from Alabama, where she had taken her kids on a beach vacation after leaving her husband, the preacher, lying alive but dying on the floor of the parsonage.
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, the judge has to weigh a couple of factors -- strong community ties, family in the courtroom, did she have a prior history, did she warrant before? None of that seems to be an issue here. They have to track her daily, so they`re going to keep her in a certain location. And she`s not a flight risk. It`s not a capital murder case.
GRACE: Why are you saying she`s not a flight risk?
GRACE: She`s already fled once.
MAZZARIELLO: For the judge to determine that bond is applicable, Nancy, then he has determined that she`s not a flight risk. I kind of agree with you that she fled once, she might flee again, but maybe...
GRACE: Did you just say you don`t agree with me?
MAZZARIELLO: I kind of agree with you, but...
GRACE: OK, you know what?
MAZZARIELLO: Since she fled once, Nancy, doesn`t mean...
GRACE: This is not the time to be on the fence. You`ve got a dead preacher laying in the parsonage...
GRACE: ... and you`ve got the mom in the family mini-van on the way to Florida or Alabama beachside for a vacation? I mean, the husband was alive on the floor, the phone ripped out of the wall when she took off with the kids. Now, tell again, why is she not a flight risk?
MAZZARIELLO: Well, because the judge has taken into account the variables in the equation needed to release her. The judge has determined that...
GRACE: OK, that`s still not answering.
MAZZARIELLO: Well, Nancy, maybe she fled because she`s scared. Now she`s calm. She`s at home. She`s with her family. She realizes what she did was wrong and has convinced the court and a bondsman that she won`t flee.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Whoa! She`s scared then, when she`s got the gun in her hand, and now she`s not scared, although she may be facing the Tennessee death penalty.
Lauren Howard, you want to shrink that?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Miraculously, this woman, who absolutely became unglued -- and you know, what is the motive? It`s money. The money -- oh, who knows what the motive is. We think that this is -- this woman is, like, of sound mind and body? Absolutely not!~ If she`s not a flight risk, she`s a risk of dangerment of herself or others. This is crazy! This is crazy!
GRACE: OK, let`s just break it down for a moment. Back to Liz Daulton with WREC. Liz, also today, in addition from the judge agreeing to let this woman walk, tell me something, was there any suggestion this woman was ever beaten in her marriage?
DAULTON: Something interesting happened in court today. One of the officers that was testifying mentioned that Mary Winkler had said something about mental abuse in the past. She said that the abuse may have stemmed back as late as six years before, and that there was a recent life- threatening experience that she went through.
GRACE: So they`re willing to say the preacher, Matthew Winkler, verbally abused her. Repeat -- was there any discussion that he had ever beaten her in the past?
DAULTON: There was no discussion as far as physical abuse that`s on record.
GRACE: OK. And isn`t it true, Liz -- Liz is with WREC, she`s been on the case from the very beginning -- that today we heard nothing about physical abuse? In fact, we heard about her, what, messing up the bookkeeping, falling for some Nigerian check scam, where she spent a lot of money based on a false check?
DAULTON: No physical abuse, just more talk about that financial scam.
GRACE: And let`s talk very quickly, Richard Herman, veteran defense attorney -- here on set with me, along with psychotherapist Lauren Howard is Sanford Sage. Sanford is a former sniper team unit leader with the Somerset County SWAT team. He is a friend of the show, and he`s kind enough -- this thing is not loaded, correct?
SANFORD SAGE, FORMER SNIPER TEAM UNIT LEADER: Correct.
GRACE: That`s a good thing. Let`s get a look at this. What she had to do in order to kill her husband was -- I`ll even do it left-handed -- push down on this bullet retention here -- there we go, thank you -- drop it in, step one, pump it, aim and shoot. And this is a process that is not done immediately, such as with a handgun. Again, you have to open up, pump action -- thanks, dear -- drop it in, pump back and pull the trigger.
Now, to you, Richard Herman. This was not done with a .38 or an automatic or even a semi-automatic. This was done with a long gun. That`s not that easy. She`s my height, 5-2. That took time do. Translation, legalese, premeditation.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, first of all, put that gun down when we`re talking.
GRACE: Yes, you`re right.
GRACE: Don`t let me loose in your studio.
HERMAN: No, please. Now, listen, I think we`re going to be hearing about some sort of diminished capacity defense very soon in this case. But I am surprised -- I`ll tell you, I am very surprised the judges let her out on bail. Like you looked at the factors before -- is she a danger to the community, is she a risk flight, does she have community contacts, does she have financial resources to flee -- she just posted a $750,000 bail -- the nature of the charges against her. I`ll tell you, if something happens while she`s out, this judge is going to be under major scrutiny.
GRACE: Very quickly, let`s go out to Debbie in North Carolina. Hi, Debbie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can this person -- anybody in the state that commits murder, never, ever gets bond for murder. This woman is so cold- hearted, she cut the phone lines and left him to die. How can she get bond? And diminished capacity, to know enough to cut the phone lines? How is it possible?
GRACE: And not just that, after the shooting, with her husband still lying there on the floor, Debbie, she had the wherewithal to get fresh socks for the infant child, load the kids in the car, lock the house up and take off for the Alabama shore. Now, the prosecution`s going to have a field day with that.
To Sanford Sage. Again, show me buckshot used for this. It`s a six, correct?
SAGE: Well, this is the birdshot here, Nancy. We can get a close-up. I believe from...
GRACE: Can you get that, Dusty (ph)?
SAGE: This is number six birdshot, and this what is the autopsy report indicated was fired into the victim.
GRACE: They`re, like, a lot of little pellets. About how many would have gone into the victim?
SAGE: I believe the autopsy report listed 71 or 72, but there would have been...
GRACE: Whoa -- 71 or 72 of these tiny pellets into his body -- I wish I could show you better than that -- into his body. And I carefully read the autopsy report, Sanford, where it went through the center of his back, from right to left, up to down, which in my mind means he was lying down...
SAGE: On the bed.
GRACE: ... on the bed because she`s only 5-2, he`s 6-1, 240 pounds, shot him while he was in bed. That`s where you get the downward angle. And this went through all of his lungs. It just -- what happens when you shoot one of these things?
SAGE: Probably the best way I can describe it is devastating, devastating damage. The autopsy report would indicate that she shot her husband at point-blank range, which very simply means walked right up to him and very nearly placed the muzzle of the weapon on his back, or in the general proximity of his back, and fired that way.
GRACE: You know what I noticed, Sanford? I noticed that in the autopsy report, it said there was not any soot...
SAGE: Powder residue?
GRACE: ... on his skin, but he was wearing a pajama top and bottom type outfit. So I didn`t see how that was examined, but I guarantee you there`s going to be some gunshot residue on his pajamas, just as you said.
So back to you, Liz Daulton. Now that we hear it laid out for us by Sanford Sage -- Liz is with us, she`s been on the scene from the get-go, WREC reporter. Liz, I`m stunned that the judge would give bond. Now, I understand at first he announced bond, then he said, Let me think about it, and then he said, OK, bond. So what convinced him to let this woman walk free, other than the fact that she`s a preacher wife?
DAULTON: Part of the reason was that the prosecution hasn`t filed any kind of aggressor in the case. They have 30 days -- or before 30 days before the trial to do so, which would make it a capital case, and they haven`t done that.
GRACE: You mean like aggravating circumstances?
GRACE: I want to go to Brian Reich, detective with the computer crimes unit. Brian, a lot has been made of her being under pressure because she got the family into this Nigerian check scheme. I think I`ve received those e-mails, too. A lot of people have. But I just deleted it. What was it?
BRIAN REICH, DETECTIVE, COMP. CRIMES UNIT: Well, you know, all across the world, people are getting bombarded with these Nigerian scams. And people want to win so desperately, they want something for free, and it`s too good to be true. You can`t get involved in it. They`re sending e- mails out, telling her that she won a sweepstakes, she won a lottery that there`s going to be fees associated with. They send her a check that appears to be a legitimate check, but it`s really a phony check. She deposits it in her bank. You think everything`s good. You send them off money for the so-called fees. And a few days later, the bank pulls the funding, telling you that the check is bogus and you`re out the money. And it looks like that`s what devastated her. I think it was over $17,000.
GRACE: Let`s go out to a friend, a very dear friend of Mary Winkler`s, who visits Mary very often in the jail. She is a member of the 4th Street Church of Christ. Pam Killingsworth, thank you for being with us.
PAM KILLINGSWORTH, FRIEND OF MARY WINKLER`S: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Do you know where Ms. Winkler is going to stay?
KILLINGSWORTH: She will be with her friend in McMinville, Ms. Kathy Thompson (ph).
GRACE: And how far that is that, Pam, from Selmer?
KILLINGSWORTH: Probably an hour-and-a-half to a couple of hours.
GRACE: And Pam, it`s my understanding that she`ll be working at a local dry cleaner`s?
KILLINGSWORTH: Yes, ma`am. That`s correct.
GRACE: So she`s not even on house arrest with a foot anklet or anything?
KILLINGSWORTH: She will have -- my understanding, she will be monitored with an ankle bracelet.
GRACE: What state of mind is she in, now that she`s made bond?
KILLINGSWORTH: I have not seen her. I did see her Sunday. She was in a very good state of mind Sunday, very upbeat. Really -- she seemed in a really good spirit.
GRACE: I don`t understand how she can be in such a good spirit with her husband just barely cold in the grave. I mean, to what do you attribute the good spirit to, the high spirits?
KILLINGSWORTH: I think probably the bail and knowing that maybe she was going to get out of there this week.
GRACE: Will she get to see her kids, her girls?
KILLINGSWORTH: I don`t know, but I know she`s hoping she does.
GRACE: Pam, were you aware at any time -- you`ve been very close with Mary -- of any type of mental defect or emotional problem she had before the shooting?
KILLINGSWORTH: No. She was just a normal mom and parent. She seemed -- you know, I didn`t see any of this. And she seemed...
GRACE: Ms. Killingsworth, I notice that she went back to work as a substitute teacher the day of the shooting. I believe it was the day of the shooting.
KILLINGSWORTH: No, it wasn`t -- it was the day before.
GRACE: Ah. Thank you. Do you think that added some additional stress to her?
KILLINGSWORTH: Well, that was just her first day. I don`t think it did, but that`s just my opinion.
GRACE: Yes. Why did she go back?
KILLINGSWORTH: She was just -- I mean, she was just doing this on the side because she was going to school to be a teacher.
GRACE: How long had she not been working outside the home?
KILLINGSWORTH: Since they have been here, she had not worked outside the home. I know when she was in McMinville, she worked at a post office, I believe.
GRACE: And how long had she been there that she did not work outside the home?
KILLINGSWORTH: It was approximately a year.
GRACE: Well, Michael Mazzariello, there it is right there. She gets caught up in one of these kooky Nigerian scams. They sent her a check for $17,000, $18,000. She cashes it, then starts spending money. It`s no good. She has to go back to work, and her husband`s raising Cain about the whole thing, and she shoots them. That`s not a mental defect. What are you talking about?
MAZZARIELLO: Well, I don`t know about mental defect, but something happened, Nancy. A good woman doesn`t go bad. Temporary insanity, I don`t know about diminished capacity...
GRACE: Temporary insanity?
MAZZARIELLO: Nancy -- Nancy...
GRACE: What fairy tale did you read that in?
MAZZARIELLO: I didn`t -- Nancy, we`re talking about a woman...
GRACE: Temporary insanity!
MAZZARIELLO: ... who`s never been in trouble with the law before. And she shoots and...
GRACE: Neither was Scott Peterson.
MAZZARIELLO: Right. And she and kills her husband. So now I have to get a team of doctors together. I have to have her evaluated and find out what happened and then delve into the possibility of the mental abuse.
GRACE: Listen, Richard Herman, mental abuse is not going to cut in it a court of law when you shoot an unarmed, sleeping man and leave him still alive on the floor of the church parsonage.
GRACE: Not going to work, Richard.
HERMAN: Nancy, there`s no way this case is going to trial. Absolutely 100 percent, there`s going to be a plea bargain in this case. It is not going trial. I do not believe this is a defensible case. I do not think she has any hope of winning this, getting acquitted or getting some sort of diminished capacity or insanity defense. Her attorneys are going to have to go and make a deal.
GRACE: Breaking news tonight. The so-called preacher`s wife, Mary Winkler, set to walk free from jail as we speak. A judge is granting her bond. Not only that, her defense team in court today to get the murder weapon, a 12-gauge shotgun, thrown out of evidence so a jury will never hear about it, as well as her alleged confession, which we`re going to tell you about when we come back.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." a guilty plea and a sweetheart deal in the death of Virginia Commonwealth University freshman Taylor Behl. Thirty-nine-year-old photographer Ben Fawley pleads guilty to much lesser charge of murder two and a much lighter sentence of maximum of 30 years behind bars. Fawley also got dismissal of child pornography charges. Man, what a bargain for Fawley! Seventeen-year-old college freshman Taylor Behl went missing last September.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
BEN FAWLEY, ACCUSED OF TAYLOR BEHL MURDER: Guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s really sad, miserable. I can tell that she`s very miserable because she can`t cope with inside, as far as being around those type of people that do God knows what. You know, she just can`t cope with it because I`m guessing she`s supposed to be this Christian lady, but you know -- you know, I guess consequences, you do the crime, you do the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: One gun kills just as easily as another. The reason this 12- gauge shotgun will be important to evidence is because to work it, Mary Winkler had to go through so much to kill her husband. She`s about my height, 5-2. To pull it back, load and aim and pull -- that takes quite a bit of effort with a long gun. Why is that going to be so important, Michael Mazzariello, as this case winds to trial?
MAZZARIELLO: Well, Nancy, I would like to ask Sanford, is that a six- shot pump, Sanford?
SAGE: Yes, it is.
MAZZARIELLO: So then she could have loaded with it the six shots and had it somewhere...
GRACE: Oh, so even more premeditation
GRACE: That helps a lot, Michael!
GRACE: Michael, clue -- you`re the defense, I`m representing the state. So to say she loaded it and hid it somewhere in the house, that`s really not helping.
MAZZARIELLO: Well, Nancy, you got to accumulate the facts and the documents. And I agree with Rich Herman, you got to present facts, documents, medical testimony, to plea it out and get the best possible deal because you`re going to go to trial and get slaughtered here.
GRACE: Back to Liz Daulton, WREC reporter. Liz, let`s talk about the alleged confession. When did it go down, and what was in it?
DAULTON: It went down in Orange Beach, Alabama. And what happened was an Alabama Bureau of Investigations corporal interrogated her, and that`s when all of the confession happened.
GRACE: And what do we believe she said, based on what came out in court?
DAULTON: There are several things that have been said, and basically, a lot of it comes down to the fact that she didn`t mean to kill him, she doesn`t remember getting the gun, she doesn`t remember having the gun, she doesn`t remember hearing the boom as loud as she thought it was going to be. It`s all things like that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KILLINGSWORTH: She was just a normal, everyday mother and wife, seemed very happy in her marriage. The girls seemed content. They were very well-behaved, loved school. You know, nobody saw any of this coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everyone paints a rosy picture. It`s not so rosy any more. Preacher`s wife Mary Winkler, believe it or not, is actually making bail. She`s set to walk free from a local jail after allegedly confessing to police she shot her husband in the back as he lay sleeping, a highly popular and beloved preacher there at a local Church of Christ church there on 4th Street in Selmer, Tennessee. "4th Street Messenger" -- this is their bulletin. They are having prayer session right now as we speak. I wonder what they think about Mary Winkler walking free.
Out to Clark Goldband, our producer. Tell me about the facility where Winkler is housed, even if it is for just a few more hours.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, that`s right, Nancy. She`s at the county jail there in Selmer, Tennessee. And you know what? Not exactly the Ritz, but they do have some amenities, albeit they can`t watch us on Headline Prime right now. She does receive some TV channels, and they are (INAUDIBLE) only broadcast TV channels. She can make phone calls. She can do some research at the legal library, so to speak, with some textbooks. There are prayer sessions, as we do know. There`s a common area where she can make new friends. And if she gets sick, well, they have an infirmary.
Also, Nancy, there is an exercise slab outside. I don`t know if we can see it on this shot right here, but word on the street is she`s not in the exercising mood and has not gone outside that much.
GRACE: Back to Liz Daulton with WREC. What is the normal bond, and is this any different?
DAULTON: This is set kind of high for that area. People who have been in the area and talked to me about it have said that they thought that it was going to be a little bit lower.
GRACE: Joining us from WREC, Liz Daulton. What`s thee community reaction, if any so far, to her release?
DAULTON: There`s great strength behind this community. The church is definitely standing behind her and the Winkler family. They`ve been praying for them every week. In their church bulletin, they make sure that everyone knows that, that the community seems to be standing behind her strong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll always remember Matthew as a very loving, caring, enthusiastic young man who was dedicated to Christ, and he lived that life every day and practiced it in his real life.
STEVE FARESE, MARY WINKLER`S ATTORNEY: We got together with a bondsman and was able to negotiate with him something that the family could do. And Leslie talked to some people that he knew in California, along with the bondsman, to help make sure they could underwrite this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s right. Don`t adjust your TV. You heard right. Preacher`s wife Mary Winkler, Selmer, Tennessee, accused of gunning down her husband in the church parsonage, leaving him alive, and taking off to a beach vacation as he lay dying, is getting bond. Here in the studio, Sanford Sage, former sniper team unit leader.
Why are you so convinced the preacher`s wound to the back was close range?
SAGE: Nancy, the autopsy...
GRACE: Got it right here.
SAGE: The autopsy report describes a petal-shaped wound.
GRACE: Petal, as in a flower, petal?
SAGE: Petal, as in a flower, that was caused by the wadding or the wad in the shotgun shell. And real quick, this is a loaded or a full, ready-to-go shotgun shell. This is an empty one. The wad sits down in the shell like this. The pellets go in the wad.
When the gun was fired, in this case, the wad traveled down the barrel with the pellets and, as the pellets struck the victim, the wad hit hard enough, indicating that the distance between the gun and the victim was very small.
GRACE: So close.
SAGE: Or nothing whatsoever.
GRACE: The pellets had not diffused?
SAGE: Right, the pellets did not spread out at all.
GRACE: And that`s the petal?
SAGE: And this is the petal-shaped wad.
GRACE: It hit him so hard it left an imprint on his back?
SAGE: Right. What happens when you fire a shotgun, the wad immediately or almost immediately upon leaving the barrel falls back, because of its light weight, and the pellets keep going.
GRACE: To Ellie, Ellie, is Steve Farese, defense attorney, in the sound you heard from Farese is from today about Mary Winkler making bond, are they changing their defense to accident?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, he made a suggestion of that. He gave an interview to the "Jackson Sun" in Jackson, Tennessee. And he suggested that this could have been an accident, it could have been unintentional. He raised that question.
GRACE: OK. Hold on just a moment.
Liz Daulton, didn`t this happen while Preacher Matthew Winkler was still lying in bed in his night attire.
DAULTON: That is where he was found.
GRACE: And if Sanford Sage is correct, it was close-range shooting, which means I guess she had to fall onto the bed with the long gun and shoot him at the same time. That`s the only way it could be an accident.
DAULTON: Farese has floated several different kind of theories about what happened with this shooting.
GRACE: Oh, really? I did not know that. What are the different theories, Liz?
DAULTON: We have accidental. We have it was several different things leading up to this point.
GRACE: Whoa. Have they gone out on the limb to say somebody else did it yet?
GRACE: Or the alleged confession -- you were just telling me about that before went to break. You were saying that -- just give me a recap, regarding the alleged confession. This is when they pulled her over in Alabama, right?
DAULTON: Yes, this is what the Alabama Bureau of Investigation recapped for her. It ranges from everything of, "He was criticizing to me," to, "They were having financial problems," and now just recently, in the hearing today, it had something along -- she didn`t intend to kill him and that there was mental abuse dating back to six years ago.
GRACE: Did anybody explain the phone cord ripped out of the wall?
DAULTON: No one has gotten into that yet.
GRACE: Back to Sanford, Sanford, with a gunshot like this -- you and I have seen a lot of homicides -- how long did the preacher lay there as his lungs filled with blood until he died, a couple of minutes?
SAGE: I would venture to say it wouldn`t be any more than that.
GRACE: And, Liz Daulton, what about the part where she allegedly -- he said to her, "Why?" And she said, "I`m sorry. I love you"?
DAULTON: And then she went and ran. That`s what`s in her statement.
GRACE: OK. Lauren Howard, "I`m sorry, love ya, bye."
HOWARD: Love ya, miss ya, mean it.
GRACE: Love ya, miss ya, mean it.
HOWARD: Well, you know, Nancy, I feel sorry for her. I do.
GRACE: Well, what about him?
HOWARD: I mean, this is -- I feel very sorry for him, too. And you know what? I`m not saying that verbal abuse is not horrific; I`m not saying that the sort of psychological toll it takes is not very invasive and destructive to a person`s sense of self, and their self-esteem, and their comfort zone psychologically...
GRACE: You do you hear yourself, right?
HOWARD: Nancy, come on. I mean, I believe verbal abuse is horrific.
GRACE: Well, I believe verbal abuse it`s bad, also.
HOWARD: But I believe shooting somebody at close range with a long gun is in a whole different league. And this is a woman who is not stable and certainly did not have good intent. And the fact that she says, "I love you," is really -- it means nothing. It means nothing.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Patsy in Mississippi. Hi, Patsy.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. First of all, thank you for always keeping focus on the victim.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: I`d like to know what kind of contact she will be allowed with her children out on bail.
GRACE: Excellent question.
CALLER: And will she be able to run with them again?
GRACE: You mean, with her children and anything else, Patsy?
GRACE: Liz Daulton, what about it? Any contact with the children?
DAULTON: She`s been writing them letters every day. The only time she has seen them was their one visit to the prison in June. And she has received one letter from them. It would be up to the paternal grandparents.
GRACE: So in the time that she`s been behind bars -- it`s been about six months -- they visited the jail once. Now, that could be construed that the paternal grandparents don`t want the kids at jail or that they don`t want them to see the mom. I mean, what`s from stopping her from taking off with the kids again?
Charles in Wisconsin, hi, Charles.
CALLER: My question is, is there is double standard here? Had this been a man shooting his wife under the exact same circumstances, would he be getting out of jail? And what if it was somebody who wasn`t a churchgoer?
GRACE: Charles, if a man had picked this thing up or something like it, and held it to his wife`s back, and shot her as she lay sleeping in bed, and said, "I`m sorry, I love ya, bye-bye," oh, yes, he would be seeking -- he would be facing the death penalty, Charles. And yes, there`s a double standard.
I mean, think about it. Every time a woman kills, including killing her children, her husband, we immediately go, "Oh, why? She must have been tortured. She must have been a battered woman. Maybe he was even molesting the children. There`s got to be a reason." I agree with Charles.
Who`s the caller, Rosie? Judy in Massachusetts. Hi, Judy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Yes, I love your program, and I`d like to know why the children are staying with the paternal grandparents and not her parents.
GRACE: Good question. What about it, Liz Daulton?
DAULTON: That was the request of the family`s attorneys and of Mrs. Winkler, I believe.
GRACE: And I believe, also, that the maternal grandparents live a little further away, is that right?
GRACE: And they had had more contact with Matthew`s family. I think it was just an easier transition for them. I`m still wondering what kind of access -- will she have an anklet, Liz Daulton?
DAULTON: Yes, it is one of the conditional releases, to my knowledge.
GRACE: And, Brian Reich, detective with the computer crimes unit, about how many people get sucked into these Nigerian scams?
REICH: Oh, tremendous, Nancy. I mean, it is really of epidemic proportions in this country. And, you know, we do the best we can to investigate them, but our hands are tied. When we find out it`s overseas, it`s a very, very difficult process for us, not only to get their money back, but to go out and make apprehensions and put a stop to it.
GRACE: And now to "Headline Prime`s" Glenn Beck. Hi, Glenn.
GLENN BECK, HOST: Tonight, I want to put out an APB for those Egyptian students who failed to show up for their English class out in Montana. Sound sort of familiar, kind of like 9/11 familiar? FBI already has caught a couple of them, but why won`t they let us help? Give us the pictures. We`ll show you these students.
Let me tell you, if those were students from Sweden, we`d have the pictures plastered all over the place. What`s wrong with this country? We`ll try to figure it out, next.
GRACE: Yes, Glenn, I`m waiting to see the "students," as well, that went missing here in New York City the moment they put their toe on the earth. Back to our next story, let`s go straight out to Rob Chilton, feature director with "OK" magazine.
You know, if it can happen to the royals, it can happen to us.
ROB CHILTON, FEATURES DIRECTOR, "OK" MAGAZINE: Yes, our phones could be tapped. Who knows? Right now my voicemail might be tapped by people. Who knows?
GRACE: What exactly happened?
CHILTON: Well, back in December, three members of Prince Charles` staff in London were suspicious that their mobile phone messages may be being tapped, so they approached the British police who launched an investigation, which has been going on for about seven or eight months now. And three men have been arrested in connection with that investigation.
GRACE: And I want to go to Dickie Arbiter who is joining us from London. Dickie is a former royal press officer. What does this mean that the phones have been hacked into?
DICKIE ARBITER, FORMER ROYAL PRESS OFFICER: Well, what it actually means is that one man is being released on bail and two have been charged. They`ve been charged with conspiring to intercept communications, voice mail, on eight occasions between January and August.
And what it appears to happen -- and these are allegations, because they appear in court next Wednesday to face these charges, though we`re talking something that is subjudicy (ph) at the moment. But what had happened is that they allegedly managed to get into conversations or voice mails that only two or three people knew about. And they were published in the "News of the World."
Now, the "News of the World" is the largest circulation newspaper in the United Kingdom out of ten newspapers. It`s published every Sunday. At one stage, the circulation was near four million. It`s been dropping rapidly. It`s now under three million.
And what it means is that you get a sensational story, you sell newspapers. You sell newspapers, you get advertising. You get advertising, you keep the shareholder happy. So it`s all about circulation.
But what is now being suggested is, was this done with the agreement of the editor, Andy Coulson, or this is a rogue newspaper reporter? Now, Clive Goodman has been on the newspaper for a long time, over 20 years, so he is a fixture there. So what is being asked is, was there a conspiracy within the organization that the editor knew about it or not?
GRACE: To Rob Chilton with "OK" magazine, how are Prince William and Harry involved in this?
CHILTON: Well, there`s nothing actually linking them specifically to this investigation yet.
GRACE: But was it their phone conversations that were heard?
CHILTON: Well, yes, that`s -- nothing has come out about that yet. It`s more about Prince Charles at the moment. But there are great fears that Harry and William may also have been affected by this leak.
There was a TV reporter who met -- had a private meeting with William, very hush-hush, and the meeting actually got leaked somehow, that the time and the place -- it got leaked into the "News of the World." So people were then asking, well, how did that happen? So the conclusion was, from Prince William and this TV reporter, that their mobile phones must have been tapped.
GRACE: So to Brian Reich, what happened is not so much a tapping of phone conversation, but hacking into the phone messaging system? Is that how it worked?
REICH: Well, depending on the type of phone that they have -- a lot of people have these Bluetooth, everybody is walking around with the Bluetooth earpiece in your ear. And, Nancy, I`ve got to tell you, it is more prevalent than you think.
It`s not very difficult at all to hack into somebody`s Bluetooth device. Every Bluetooth device, especially the ear pieces, if you know the make and the model, the type the Bluetooth device they have, and if you knew the PIN number of that, which is just a code to get you access into it, you can hack right into that and talk to that person. You could listen to their phone conversation.
Not only could you listen to their phone conversation when they`re on the phone, but even if their Bluetooth device phone is not activated, you can hear them talking or a conversation, even if they have it on a table. The fortunate thing with Bluetooth, that it`s only good for about 10 years. So when you`re in a crowded area and you`re using that Bluetooth device in your phone, you really need to be careful about what you`re talking about, because there may be someone that`s tapping in listening to you.
GRACE: Were the royals hacked into, their phone conversations, for monetary gain to the tabs, the tabloids? Here is the editor of "The Guardian."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anecdotally this sort of things has been going on for a long time. It`s very widespread. Tabloid newspaper journalists engage in all sorts of activity to get the story, because it is ultimately about selling newspapers. And there`s a lot of pressure on tabloid journalists and their editors to get the best stories.
Tabloid journalists have worked and have got many tactics of getting their stories, some aboveboard and a lot of them rather below the belt. And I think that, in many cases, the pressure to get good stories is so great and the competition amongst tabloid newspapers for sales is so intense that there is a great deal of pressure to get stories by whatever means.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: ... therapist Lauren Howard, it`s hard to understand, with a nation that loves the royals so very much -- I mean, the world loves the royals -- that someone would want to destroy them and tear them down, get into their phone conversations, and print it?
HOWARD: You know, it`s a cottage industry. We are obsessed with celebrity, with fame, with fortune. This is a big -- this is a big, money- making, obsessive, rubber-necking -- people are obsessed with famous people. I mean, that`s -- we have magazines, television shows, gossip columns. We love gossip; that`s what this is. I don`t think it`s so much to tear them down as much as it is to sort of catch a little of their glamour.
GRACE: To Leslie in Ohio. Hi, Leslie.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I wanted to just tell you, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: And my question is, I`m just wondering, with all of the financial resources that the royal family has, I`m just wondering how it is that they always seem to be having these problems with people, you know, getting access to tapping their phones and why their security is not better?
GRACE: You know, you`re right. You`re right.
To Dickie Arbiter, former royal press officer, why is that? They`ve got all of the money in the world. The queen is sitting on a nest egg of millions and millions of dollars. And they can`t protect their voicemail?
ARBITER: It`s not a question of money. You can have all of the money in the world. But if somebody wants to hack into your telephone system, they can do so. As we heard from your expert just now, it`s very easy.
You can go one better. You can pick up a phone in your office, and if you know the access code from the particular network, and you take a guess at the PIN number, what is the most common pin number? Well, you`re usually given a 0000. Then you say, "Well, what`s the PIN number, 1234, your birth date year?" Most people go for the easy option. And you just take a gamble and you punch in those numbers, and you can hear voicemail messages. All of the money in the world is not going to stop that.
GRACE: Take a look at the times that security has been breached with them before, with Princess Diana, James Gilbey, Michael Jackson, Mark Geragos, Michael Jackson, Marc Schaffel, Amber Frey, Scott Peterson. This is not the first time that the royals` security has been breached.
Back to Dickie Arbiter, remember when queen woke up and there was a guy sitting at the foot of her bed?
ARBITER: Yes, well, that is a different kind of security lapse. That is a lapse, a physical lapse of the police not being observant and not being vigilant, and somebody getting into the building. But you`re quite right. You mentioned Diana. You mentioned Charles.
Now, in 1992, there was the Squidgygate tape, conversations between Diana and James Gilbey. We had analog telephones and not digital in this days. In 1993, there was an intimate conversation between Prince Charles and then Camilla Parker-Bowles. It was a very embarrassing conversation. It was very intimate, but it was published. Now, how did they get that? Well, it was a radio ham who was surfing...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRINCESS DIANA, LATE PRINCESS OF WALES: You`re just the nicest person in the whole wide world, just the nicest person in the whole wide world.
JAMES GILBEY, FORMER LOVE OF PRINCESS DIANA: Well, darling, you are to me, too, sometimes.
DIANA: What do you mean, "sometimes"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a pretty underhand case, but I do think that it`s indicative of a wider problem. I mean, there`s lots of anecdotal evidence that this kind of action by tabloid journalists is pretty widespread. And we know from this investigation that it`s not just now involving people at Clarence House. It`s much more widespread than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To rob Chilton with "OK" magazine, it wasn`t just back in the 1908s when a man popped up in the queen`s bedroom, just kind of staring at her from the foot of the bed. 2000, a reporter for the "Mirror" tabloid posed as a footman, got into Buckingham Palace and just hung out for a while. 2004, protesters dressed as Batman and Robin, climbed onto the palace balcony.
What the hay is going on?
CHILTON: Well, yes, the guy you mentioned from the "Daily Mirror," Ryan Parry, who`s actually a friend of mine, funny enough, he just applied for a job as a footman at Buckingham Palace and he spent four days there, you know, serving the queen her breakfast and watching the queen, watching her favorite TV shows. He took pictures. And, you know, there were no security checks that were run on Ryan when he applied for the job.
He gave a real reference and a fake reference, and he didn`t put journalist on his C.V. when he applied for the job, obviously, and he just got -- you know, zoomed straight through. And there he is in the same room as the queen. It`s pretty scary, really.
And like Dickie said before, it`s not about how much money you have. If you don`t have the basic security strategies in place, then you`re in trouble.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s pause for one moment, as the royals are concerned about people hacking into their voicemail, to remember Marine Lance Corporal Robert Posivio III, just 22, Sherber, Minnesota, (ph) on his third tour of duty. Joined the military straight out of high school, leaving behind parents, a sister, and a teenaged brother, also a fallen hero. Robert Posivio III, American hero.
Thank you for being with us, inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Good night, friend.