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Nancy Grace

Winkler Released on Bond

Aired August 15, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Preacher`s wife Mary Winkler, accused of gunning down her husband inside the church parsonage, walks out of jail, $750,000 bond posted. She is now able to walk the streets and work at a dry cleaners. Yes, a dry cleaners. She also plans to visit her three children, who have lost their father allegedly at the hands of their own mother. Will Winkler`s confession and the murder weapon, a .12-gauge shotgun, make it into evidence? In the meantime tonight, Mary Winkler walks free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Winkler will not be released today. We were not expecting any of these difficulties. Seems like what -- we take care of one issue, another issue arises. Hopefully, tomorrow, the fifth time, will be the charm. Every day`s a new day. It`s like Groundhog Day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Winkler was released today on bond, after an arduous effort on our part.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I assure you, we know more about making bonds than Dog the bounty hunter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. A Tennessee wife accused in the shooting death of her preacher husband out on bond. Mary Winkler walks away from jail, off to a friend`s house and a job in a nearby county.

Let`s go straight out to WREC newsradio reporter Liz Daulton, who has been tracking this case from the start. Liz, give us a recap of today`s dramatic developments.

LIZ DAULTON, WREC: Fifth time was a charm. Mary Winkler is out on $750,000 bond. Her family has put up some real estate as collateral for the total amount.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, I know that, Martha Zoller, radio talk show host out of Atlanta, you have been getting a lot of feedback on this. What I have to say to you is what outrages me the most is when I saw her walking out of jail today, her head hung low, she`s holding hands with both her attorneys -- and we`re going to see this video again because it really tells the whole story -- you would have thought she`s the victim! You`d look at this woman and say, What happened to this poor woman? Who did something to her? Not, She is accused of premeditated murder against her husband, leaving him, according to prosecutors, to die on the ground, with the phone disconnected so he couldn`t call for help!

What is your analysis of this walk, this odd perp walk, if you will?

MARTHA ZOLLER, NEWSTALK 550 WDUN: Well, I got to tell you, I was disappointed to see that she was getting out because she has -- while she is innocent until proven guilty, this is a heinous crime, and in the state of Georgia, you would rarely get out on something like that on the level of a bond.

And I must tell you that it`s disappointing to me because it seems like we have a problem with women who commit these kind of crimes. We`re easier on women who commit these kind of crimes. And if she is in the mental state that people say she is, is it the best thing for her to be seeing her children? It is a very sad story. And it was cold-blooded murder. And she did plea, so she`s a flight risk.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Former federal prosecutor Aitan Goelman, do we have a double standard when it comes to women and men both committing the same alleged crimes?

AITAN GOELMAN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think we do have a double standard. I mean, I think, you know, you can look at sexual predators and the way women who sleep with high school students are treated differently than men who do the same thing. I don`t necessarily think that this case proves that, though. I mean there`s a law in Tennessee that says that unless it`s a capital crime -- and right now, it`s not a capital crime -- the court is required to, you know, find some conditions that will allow someone to stay out on bail.

You know, she`s going to be convicted in the end, and she`s going to spend a lot of time in jail. But in this country, we`re innocent until proven guilty, and so she gets to stay out until there`s a trial, if there is one.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we don`t know if she`s going to be convicted, but...

GOELMAN: Sure we do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... from your mouth to God`s ears, maybe. Well, you know, you never can say. A lot of these cases, they say it`s open and shut, and then such magic is worked by the defense.

And speaking of the defense, we invited them to be here tonight. They declined. But of course, they did hold a news conference today. Let`s listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mary Winkler was released today on bond after an arduous effort on our part. She has been incarcerated, as you all know, since approximately March 23. She will travel to the home where she`s staying in McMinnville, Tennessee. She will have a job there.

We would ask specifically of all the press -- not just the press here today, but the magazines, newspapers, national press -- to please respect her privacy, as they have respected the privacy of the Winkler family. She has some acclimating to do on being on the outside world, and she needs as little interference as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Martha Zoller, talk radio show host, what absolutely, irritates me beyond almost words is the defense attorneys seem to be scolding the media. Oh, she deserves her privacy. Leave her alone. They even refer to the paparazzi. This woman isn`t a star! Paparazzi aren`t after her. Reporters are covering the story. And I don`t know that she has a privilege of privacy. Maybe it`s in the public`s interest to see her at work at the dry cleaners because maybe that`s part of the story. Don`t you think that she lost her privacy privilege when she got involved in the crime, when her husband was left on the ground? I mean, how dare they say, We`re going to dictate to you how you do your job!

And one of the things that the defense did say to us is that they did that little parade, which they don`t describe as a parade, but they say they walked her out there in the hopes that the news media would say, OK we`ve got our picture of her and now we`re going to leave her alone, in essence dictating news coverage and saying, This is the photo we`re going to allow of Mary Winkler. This is how you`re going to cover this story. This is where you`re going to stop. And if you don`t, we`re going to demonize you.

ZOLLER: Well, I think the problem is she`s not going to have her privacy. People are going to be following up on her. And I just think it`s ironic that just a couple of weeks ago, there was a story about Mel Gibson and some things he said and how he behaved while he was drinking, and people were talking about how he should never be able to work again. But yet in this case, where -- it`s a serious thing to be charged with murder. I think that it has not been handled well.

And I think this business of making her the victim, and not the person that she is accused of murdering, is a serious problem. I know we don`t want to think that women are capable of these kinds of crimes, but look at Andrea Yates. Look at the record. We don`t like to see women in these positions.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m wondering why she got out of bail, and I`d like to go to my good friend, Chickie Levanthal, who runs Chickie`s Bail Bonds out of Los Angeles. Chickie, how are you doing tonight?

CHICKIE LEVANTHAL, FOUNDER AND OWNER, CHICKIE`S BAIL BONDS: I`m just doing very well. How are you, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this question. What is the criteria that the courts are supposed to use in deciding whether or not somebody gets out on bail?

LEVANTHAL: The only criteria is supposed to be, is this person a flight risk, and are they a danger to the community? Otherwise, an innocent person should not sit in custody. And that`s why she was released.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, hold on a minute because you just said flight risk, which I think she is. Defense attorney Ray Giudice, she fled after the shooting. She got in her minivan with her three kids and she took off. And I believe we have a route, a map of the route that she took, the approximate route. And hang with us because we`re going to get that up. But I can tell you that she went 479 miles through two states. Now, if that isn`t a flight risk, I don`t know what is. Why are we assuming that she won`t do the same thing?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the judge made a finding that they can put enough security on her by having her report to the probation department in the small town that she`s going to be living in, working regularly where they can monitor her -- she has to live at a precise address. I was a little surprised that she was released without some type of an electronic monitoring device or GPS. I think that would have given the court, if I was the judge, a little more assurance that had she decided to move or get away from the directions of the court, that they could get her quickly.

But let me say something about the alleged flight. She had $123 in her pocket. She had no luggage. She had no passport. She had her children with her, with no items for them. They were parked alongside the beach. It may not be flight. That may sound like flight, if you want to twist it that way as far as the prosecution goes, but I think a judge could say she ran from the scene. She intended to come back. And that apparently, is what her defense attorneys are spinning.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`d like to talk to Dr. Mark Hillman, who is a psychotherapist on set with me, about the fact that she is not a danger to the community. Doctor, I mean, this is a woman who put this -- let`s see if we can see it. This is the shell, OK? Look at this thing. This is big. This is the shell that went into the preacher`s body. That`s sizable. And apparently, they found 70-some pellets in his body.

Now, if a woman is capable of this, allegedly -- she hasn`t been convicted yet, but supposedly, there`s a confession, which we will get to - - wouldn`t she be capable of fleeing again? Wouldn`t she be capable of being a danger to the community or perhaps her children, who she wants to see?

MARK HILLMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think what the defense is going to do is they`re going to use a psychological defense in terms of abuse, psychological abuse. Remember, this is a woman who`s in the community, who is the preacher`s or the pastor or minister`s wife. She gets no recognition. He gets all the accolades. He has the ego affirmation. She gets nothing.

At a point in time, there`s a -- what will come out later on -- and the thing about the financial scam -- she`s desperate for money. She`s constantly being told she`s not good enough, she`s not good enough, she`s not good enough. The problem is, yes, she did -- did she act out? Did she have a psychotic episode in terms of grabbing a gun and shooting her husband? There is no question about that.

But no one taught this woman how to scream. Think about that for a minute. We have her tried and convicted, but where is her own ego? Very fragile, very broken. Who listening to this program hasn`t acted out out of rage, out of anger, out of desperation?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Didn`t she even say, I got my self-esteem and I got my ugly, or words to that effect, when talking to the investigators? What does that tell you?

HILLMAN: That tells me how fragile her ego is and how broken her spirit is. There was no way out. It`s sort of like when people commit suicide and there`s a tragedy -- and people are aware of this. But you know what? For some people, suicide is an alternative. Now, not necessarily to a rational person, but to this woman, Mary Winkler, her only way out.

It`s also interesting when she says, I`m a moron, I`m an evil woman, please don`t trash my husband in the media. It will be interesting in terms of forensic evidence if it comes out later about anything on the computer because there have been allegations about some other things down the road.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I find that so significant because here`s somebody who`s accused of killing her husband, but yet, after the fact, she`s worried about him getting trashed in the media. To me, what that says is almost a pathological obsession with appearances. And you know what they say in, for example, 12 step, You can save your face or you can save your butt. You can`t do both at the same time. So if she`s pathologically obsessed with appearances to the point where she couldn`t ask for help, she couldn`t confide in her friends about these problems she was having in her marriage, that could lead her to build up the kind of stresses that would cause her to explode.

HILLMAN: And just what she said. She snapped. She lost it. I mean, who in this world hasn`t lost it? You see it in New York, the people screaming about, you know, running red lights or cutting me off, getting out, having fist fights. You know what? To me, this woman was absolutely psychologically fragile and broken.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go to the phone lines. Gary in Virginia. Thanks for your patience. Your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes. I`m a former police officer myself, and the question I`ve got on this case, why is this case so much more special than any other murder, say the murder of a child out here? It doesn`t get all of this national attention like this minister`s wife is getting here. I mean, where`s the connection there? What is the big deal with this case versus, say, a 2-year-old child out here on the street getting murdered?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thank you, sir for that question because it does raise the important issue of sort of selective indignation. We get really upset about certain cases, and others seem to fall by the wayside and don`t get the kind of attention, even though they have grieving relatives who`ve lost a loved one, and those cases are just as valid.

Martha Zoller, a radio talk show host out of Atlanta, why has this struck such a nerve with people? Why has it really sort of pressed everybody`s buttons?

ZOLLER: Well, I think because in a society where, even in the Bible Belt, where this lady lived, a lot of people get divorced. So the idea that you can`t get out of a relationship -- and I don`t know about you, but I have picked up and I have shot a shotgun before. It takes a lot to pull the trigger of a shotgun. It is -- especially for a small woman like her. This was not something that was just a snapping. And if she could just snap and kill her husband, what will she snap and do if she is as fragile as the doctor says? And I`m not an expert in psychology, but the business that -- the idea that she couldn`t have done anything else, that she couldn`t have gotten divorced when half the people, even in the Bible Belt, get divorced...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, you raise some excellent points, and we`re going to talk about them more, especially this double standard between men and women when it comes to these murder cases.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." In North Dakota, the state`s first death penalty case in a century under way as a convicted sex offender is on trial in the death of a college student, Alfonso Rodriguez (ph), Jr., charged with kidnapping, resulting in the death of Dru Sjodin. Graphic details of the 22-year-old`s sexual assault, stabbing and asphyxiation revealed for the first time. The University of North Dakota student disappeared from a mall parking lot in 2003.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Preacher`s wife Mary Winkler walks out of jail a free woman. She was granted bond even though she is accused of gunning down her husband with a shot to the back. She is accused of shooting him in the back, and as he collapsed to the floor, leaving him, while, according to prosecutors, he was still dying, with enough presence of mind to grab some small socks for her youngest baby before heading off with the three kids in the minivan.

I want to go back to this whole issue of a double standard between men and women. Former federal prosecutor Aitan Goelman, I mean, you look at Neil Entwistle. He`s accused of killing his wife and his baby, a British citizen accused of killing his American-born wife. He is in jail in Massachusetts, awaiting trial without bond. So what`s the difference here? They both tried to flee.

GOELMAN: Yes. But he fleed farther.

(LAUGHTER)

GOELMAN: Didn`t he go to England?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But I mean, she probably wouldn`t have had any reason to go to England. He went to England because he wanted to be with his parents.

GOELMAN: Yes, I know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s where his security blanket was. And she headed toward the beach.

GOELMAN: She headed toward the beach and, yes, I think that, you know, when you`re in front of a jury as a prosecutor, you argue that that`s evidence of fleeing. Clearly, you know, she got out of the house real quickly and hit the road.

But at the same time, I mean, if you`re a judge and you`re considering whether or not she`s a risk of flight and she`s a danger to the community, you know, when she fled the first time, she -- she took her 8-year-old and her 6-year-old, and her 1-year-old baby. Presumably, she`s not going to, you know, just take off and head to Mexico without her kids. So I think that probably makes her less of a flight risk than, you know, someone like Entwistle.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to clarify something because it`s been kind of all over the map in the reporting. And maybe Ellie (ph), our whiz with the facts, can clarify this. I`ve heard that she just wanted to have a little fun before the bad times started. But I also heard that she rented a condo?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, she rented -- she was staying in a hotel room. She had actually traveled from Selmer, Tennessee. We know she spent at least one night in Jackson, Mississippi, with the girls, then continued on to Orange Beach, where apparently, they may have been there on vacation in the past, and she wanted to have one last day at the beach with the kids.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what does that tell you, Dr. Hillman, in terms of where her head was at when she took off? Did she just want a little bit of good times before the bad times started, or was she plotting an escape?

HILLMAN: Well, it depends on what it really comes back to, how long they rented the condo for, staying at the Fairfield Inn for one night with her three children. But the point that I think we`re missing here -- going back to something you said earlier about the parade with the two defense attorneys. I think it`s an absolutely brilliant strategy. How could you not have a bleeding heart for this woman, who is fragile, demure, tender, who just completely acts out? I think they`re setting up the defense, and I think it`s a brilliant psychological strategy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But isn`t it a cynical strategy? Isn`t it a manipulative strategy? And I find them to be a little bit self-righteous, where they`re lecturing the media, if they`re, in fact, simultaneously employing a very cynical strategy to manipulate the public.

HILLMAN: Well, I think it`s called misdirection because they`re there to defend her with whatever means they can. Now, what are they going to do, push water uphill in terms of saying she`s guilty? Well they have to say not guilty. Now they have to come up with a very specific and definitive strategy. So let`s pull at the strings, you know, of being -- living in the shadows of the minister`s ego.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her emotional state is fragile, but it`s a new world and a new day for her today. No one knows the events of that night except Mary Carol and us. And the events as they have been portrayed in the media (INAUDIBLE) standpoint of the prosecution, and what they say, are certainly what`s not been laid out to the public. I`m sure it would allay a lot of people`s fears if they knew the whole story. But as you know, they cannot know the whole story until we go to court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in tonight for Nancy Grace. We`ve been talking about Mary Winkler. Why was she freed on bail, even though she is accused of shooting her husband in the back and leaving him there to die with the phone disconnected while she took off with three kids?

I`d like to go to Chickie Levanthal, who is the founder and owner of Chickie`s Bail Bonds. Does the fact that she has three children enter into this whole equation? Do the courts consider that, Well, it would be good for the kids if they got a chance to see Mom outside of a jail setting? Apparently, they`ve seen them once before. They had a meeting in jail, and there was only one meeting. Is this part of the calculation?

LEVANTHAL: I seriously doubt it. It actually does pull at your heartstrings. I mean, these kids have lost their father, and I don`t think anybody wants to see them lose their mother at the same time. But go back to the same story. She`s innocent. Until the court proves her guilty, she is innocent. And there`s no reason why she should not be out on bail.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, you say the criteria is a flight risk and danger to the community, and at least I see her as both. But that`s what we`re discussing here tonight.

Let`s go to the lines.

LEVANTHAL: No, no, no.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ellen from New Jersey. Your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`d like to know, how does the minister`s family feel about Mary Winkler being on parole?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, a very good question. Let`s go to Liz Daulton, reporter on the scene. The three kids are staying with her paternal grandparents, I understand, the parents of the dead man. What are they saying, if anything? Because I understand they aren`t actually talking to the media.

DAULTON: They are speaking through a family representative, but they are standing behind Mary Winkler, and they say they have forgiven her for the crime and that they are praying for her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So they`re going to allow visitation with the kids? Because theoretically, couldn`t they go to court, a family court, and say Hey, this is the same person who disappeared with the three kids. Why should we allow visitation?

DAULTON: They`re working on a visitation agreement now. It`s not sure what`s going to come out of that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I mean, do you get the sense that they are amenable to having Mary Winkler come and visit the kids and spend time with the kids?

DAULTON: They did put the girls through some counseling to prepare for the one visit when they saw her in prison, so it could be.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, when we come back, we want to talk a little bit about a fascinating development that they actually said they had told the three children what happened, but they didn`t reveal what they said precisely. So that`s another fascinating angle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The reason this 12-gauge shotgun will be imported into evidence is because, to work it, Mary Winkler had to go through so much to kill her husband. She`s about my height, 5`2". To pull back, load, and aim, and pull, that takes quite a bit of effort.

STEVE FARESE, MARY WINKLER`S ATTORNEY: No one knows the events of that night except Mary, Carol and us. But as you know, they cannot know the whole story until we go to court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace, and we are talking about Mary Winkler, the wife of a preacher who was murdered. She is out on bail, even though she, according to authorities, confessed to killing him. She, of course, has not gone to trial; that happens October 30th. So she is presumed innocent.

We have a friend of hers that we`d like to go to now. We`re very happy to have her with us tonight. Pam Killingsworth, she is a member of the Fourth Street Church of Christ, so she was a member of the congregation where the preacher who was murdered preached. She is also a friend of Mary Winkler.

Are you there, Pam?

PAM KILLINGSWORTH, FRIEND OF MARY WINKLER: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Give us a sense, if you will, of what your community is going through, because we have been debating tonight whether or not she should have been released on bail. Is there a similar debate going on in your community? What are people saying? * KILLINGSWORTH: Well, you do have two sides, two opinions going on in the community. And we just had to trust that whatever happened would be, and I sincerely think that she is not going to be a flight risk or is not going to be harmful to anyone else.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you visited her in jail, correct?

KILLINGSWORTH: That`s correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us a little bit about what you guys talked about, what her emotional state is, because she`s been described as very fragile emotionally.

KILLINGSWORTH: Well, most every time when I went to see Mary, we always started out with -- I told her I loved her, and I was praying for her, and that if I could do anything for her, you know, I would be glad to bring her anything, but of course she couldn`t have anything.

She always was very positive with me. She`d felt like the situation she was in, that she was OK for the moment, that everybody was treating her well. She never complained to me. She never had one word of complaint other than she missed her children and she would like to see them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to ask you question that`s a little sensitive, but if you can try to open up and tell us, because we`ve been talking here with the psychotherapist and with others about the fact that they had troubles in their marriage. Now, you`re a friend of hers. Did she ever confide in you and say, "Yes, we have a troubled marriage"? Because part of the analysis of the whole thing is that perhaps she stuffed so much because she felt like she couldn`t share with anybody, that she exploded.

KILLINGSWORTH: Well, you have to understand they had only been here a year. I was not aware of anything that was going on. She never mentioned it. I never saw any signs, not through her or through the children. It was a total, total shock to me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And did she seem isolated? Because they say minister`s wives often, they can`t confide in anybody, they`re put on a pedestal. I mean, did she seem like isolated at all?

KILLINGSWORTH: No, she was very friendly at church. She did things in the community, came to the girls` ball games, was at school, spoke to people. I think she just did not get a closeness with some -- this is what I`m seeing or how I feel about it, my opinion.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So kind of surfacey, everything was sort of on the surface?

KILLINGSWORTH: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Have you learned anything from it, in terms of how to conduct your life? I know in some of these cases, friends of people who were involved say, "Boy, if I ever have a problem in my marriage, I`m going to talk to somebody"?

KILLINGSWORTH: I`ve definitely learned that. And I have certainly learned: Watch and listen to what anyone says to you. And if you think that there is a problem, please try to talk to them about it. I just wish that I could have helped in this situation and there was something that I could have said that would have brought her maybe to talk to me more about what was going on.

But I think, too, the complications of being a preacher`s wife, I think she really felt like she couldn`t talk to anybody about their problems because it would look bad for her and Matthew.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And here we are looking at a picture of this family, and they look like the perfect family.

Doctor Hillman, what is the danger of perfection as a goal?

HILLMAN: Well, you can never be 100 percent 100 percent of the time. Again, I keep going back to the psychological defense issues here. They`re going to present in terms of a schizoid personality disorder. And what that means is there are fractures. It`s stoic. There`s no emotion.

Because let`s back up. The president of this country -- nobody knew what was going on with Bill Clinton. And then all of a sudden everybody`s in shock. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

So now take this demure woman. Remember they may be pushing water uphill, but they still have to fight that fight. They`ve got to get into the ring, and they`re going to get hit.

Here`s the issue: She`s a schizoid personality type. It works good, in terms of a forensic psychologist doing the interviews and doing the testing. They`re going to say, "Well, you know, on May 7th she had a visitation scheduled with her children." But isn`t it interesting that a few days before here she is getting caught taking prescription medication from another inmate, again, self-sabotage?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right.

HILLMAN: But don`t you see the setup here...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She was no saint even in the short time that she spent in jail.

HILLMAN: And they`re going to twist that to try and use it to their advantage.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And one of the things they`re going to try to do is throw out the confession. And I`d like to get the whole roundtable on this, because this is absolutely astounding to me.

First of all, did she confess? Now, I want to read some of the things that she said in her statement, according to authorities. And she said, "He was still in bed. I don`t think I left the room. He had a shotgun he kept in the closet in a case. I don`t remember going to the closet or getting the gun. Don`t remember."

"The next thing I remember was hearing a loud boom. I remember thinking it wasn`t as loud as I thought it would be. He rolled out of the bed onto the floor, and I saw some blood on the floor and some bleeding around his mouth. I went over and wiped his mouth off with a sheet." Then she tells the investigators her husband asked, "Why?" "I told him I was sorry, and that I loved him, and I went and ran."

Ray Giudice, defense attorney, is that a confession?

GIUDICE: Well, let`s talk about whether it`s an admissible confession into evidence, and that`s really what the issue is. Whether it`s a confession or not to you and I is not relevant.

The question`s going to be about the facts and circumstances surrounding the arrest and the questioning, whether her Miranda rights were read, whether she was under stress or duress to make her incapacitated to give a voluntary, knowing, and free-willed statement.

I`m interested and I think it`s curious that, although there was an FBI agent apparently present at the questioning, there was no videotape or tape recording made. That`s pretty much standard procedure when the FBI is involved.

Secondly, we need to know how long she had been up. Was she tired? Did she have the opportunity...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, please, "Was she tired?"

GIUDICE: Those are absolutely...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course she`s going to be tired. She drove 479 miles with three kids.

GIUDICE: It`s absolutely a defense to whether or not that was a coerced or incapacitated statement. They need to find out whether she asked for an attorney, whether she was made known under her Miranda rights that she had the right to have an attorney.

So whether or not you think it`s a confession, that`s not the question and that`s not the motion that was heard by the judge the other day. And that`s going to be what this case is going to turn on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, reporter Liz Daulton, how are they trying to get this thrown out? Why was this confession, according to the defense, improperly obtained?

DAULTON: They want to know how it was obtained, meaning, when she was caught or when she was found, they had no arrest warrant for her. So they believed that a confession may be a little bit over the top.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re saying, because they had issued an Amber Alert and they originally thought, wow, maybe they find the man dead in the parsonage, maybe something happened to the wife, too, so for her own benefit they issue an Amber Alert for her and the kids and they search for her. But also they had to have had something in their head thinking maybe she`s the suspect. And they catch her and they find her. Because they were looking at her as a missing person, suddenly they can`t use her confession?

DAULTON: Well, they`re also wondering, "Was this a paraphrase?" This wasn`t an actual confession; it`s not signed by her; and it`s not videotaped.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I don`t know that -- I`m not -- it`s just kind of surprised to start with. There are a lot of people here that did know the couple. And the facts have kind of leaked out, they just have different views on what exactly is going on with the case.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jane Velez-Mitchell here filling in tonight for Nancy Grace. We`re talking about Mary Winkler and why she was released on bail and the fact that she`s given permission to have a job at a dry cleaners.

Chickie Levanthal of Chickie`s Bail Bonds, why? Do they require somebody to have a job? Because I remember Robert Blake, when he was released on bail, I don`t think he had a job. He didn`t get any acting jobs. And I don`t think Phil Spector, except maybe he`s composing something in his castle in Alhambra, I don`t think that he has had a job. So why does she have to have a job?

LEVANTHAL: I don`t think it has anything to do with any requirements at all. Obviously she`s going to need to support herself. And the fact that she has a job indicates that she`s a normal, stable human being. I think it`s a very good thing that she has a job.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t understand how she could possibly prepare for her defense, meet with her defense attorneys, see her children, and probably do psychological analysis and everything else that you do in preparation for a trial, and still work at a dry cleaners. For what? She`s going on trial October 30th. All of this buildup?

I mean, it kind of makes me suspicious. And I want to go to Martha Zoller on this, a radio talk show host. Do you think this could be a maneuver by the defense? "Hey, we`re going to give her this job at the dry cleaners. We know the media`s going to try to get a picture of her. And then, once again, we can paint her as the victim, badgered by the media as the poor thing tries to do her job at the dry cleaners."

ZOLLER: Well, it`s probably a part-time job, so she`ll have time for things. But I think they want to show her as a regular person. I mean, there`s no way, after being accused of this crime, that she can be looked at as a normal person.

What people think about is the pictures we`ve been showing all night long. But by having a job, by having to be responsible and to do things, I think that what it does is show that she`s a regular person. That`s what the defense wants to do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, essentially you`re agreeing with me, that this is a ploy to project an image for her, to portray her in a certain manner. Not that she really needs to have this job, is that...

ZOLLER: Well, and also -- let`s be honest, too. If she is in a fragile state, if she`s having problems, she`s not taking care of her children, then she needs something to do during the day, too, so this could be part of that, too.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Maybe preparing for her case might be something to do, since it`s coming up in October.

Let me ask you, Dr. Hillman, do you think that it`s wise for her to have this job? And also, what are the potential psychological dangers to the children of seeing their mom, given all the different stories they`ve been told? And remember, according to the authorities, she lied to the kids about why they went and they fled. She said there was a bad man, and Daddy was in the hospital. And this is according to the authorities who said the kids said, "Mommy had to sort of protect us and get a gun," because they did find a gun in the minivan, according to authorities.

HILLMAN: Boy, do we think differently, because I`m thinking that this woman goes and gets this job at this dry cleaning store...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK.

HILLMAN: It`s part-time. She has a breakdown because she`s badgered by the media. That`s called post-traumatic stress disorder. You and I think very differently. You`re talking facts; I`m talking psychology. They have to market this.

She breaks down. She can`t work. Mea culpa, mea culpa, all of the psychological things. Now she`s desperate to see her children -- how dramatic -- with supervised visitation. Making nice, and making nice, feel sorry for me. O.J. was guilty. He got off. What do you think is going on here? This defense has got to twist this whole thing. Misdirection. The kids tell the truth, not the truth. Bad men lie. "Look I`m not stable." Normal?

Chickie, this woman is not normal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, Chickie, this woman is not normal. And I want to note...

LEVANTHAL: Come on, this woman is...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead, Chickie.

LEVANTHAL: This woman is not normal; I will grant you that. But I don`t think we know the half of what`s going on. You have no clue as to what the defense is going to be. Everyone is saying, "It`s psychological this, it`s psychological that." Come on. Wait until you really see what the defense is and you really find out what a really rotten person the preacher was, OK?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well...

LEVANTHAL: You haven`t heard the half of it yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, he`s not here to defend himself. And I want to go to our fact maven, Ellie, about the argument the night before, what led up to this. What was going on in that house?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know, they have a pretty normal night. They eat some pizza from Pizza Hut. They watch "Chicken Little" with the girls. They put them to bed. And then she says he just started ranting about problems at the church, with the church administration. And she was just listening to him.

And then she says at some point, you know, they started watching a movie. They fell asleep, go to bed. And then, the next morning, we know what happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She gets up and...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, as she says, she goes to the closet, she doesn`t remember pulling the trigger. She hears the boom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, what do you make of the fact that she doesn`t -- she remembers so much, she remembers what they ate, what movie they watched -- but she doesn`t remember going to the closet and getting the gun?

HILLMAN: It`s a detached emotional thing. This is a whole marketing strategy. Again, you keep wanting to, like, put her down, chastise her. The defense has got to weave, and maneuver, and wiggle through, and say all the forensic psychology. Look, what`s the best that could happen to this woman? She spends a couple of years, maybe 10, 15 years, you know, in a mental hospital.

She can see her kid. She can have regular visitation. She`s put away for 35 to 50 years, but the abuse thing has never worked. You look at Nancy Seaman. You look at Susan Wright. You look at Dixie Shanahan. You look at Susan Polk. They all claimed the abuse; all four women found guilty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go to Texas and Darlene on the phone lines. Your question, ma`am?

CALLER: Are Mary Winkler`s lawyers now members of the Church of Christ or have they ever been?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t think so, but let`s go to our reporter on the scene, Liz Daulton. Did you hear the question, Liz?

DAULTON: Yes, to my understanding, Steve Farese is not a Church of Christ member.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So he is, what, a Tennessee lawyer based out of Memphis?

DAULTON: He is actually based out of Mississippi, Ashley, Mississippi (ph). Leslie Ballin is based out of Memphis.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, this team is -- you have to give them credit, because they are doing a spectacular job in presenting a very, very sympathetic picture of this woman. We are giving them a hard time because that`s our job, too.

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FARESE: She`ll have to get used to carrying a purse again. She mentioned that today. She wants to be able to visit with her children and interact with her children. She`ll have to get out in the workforce. And hopefully she won`t be bothered by the press and the paparazzi.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s Mary Winkler`s defense team holding a news conference today as she was released from jail. By the way, they are working pro bono for Mary Winkler.

And while we`re on the subject of money, let`s talk about the money aspect to this entire case. Liz Daulton, what about the Nigerian check scam? What`s the latest on that?

DAULTON: No new details. But, of course, you have the check kiting scheme that`s coming out of Nigeria. Mary Winkler was involved. She did admit to some bad bookkeeping on her parts. She had several different accounts open, and she also was bouncing checks in the amount of over $17,000.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the defense claiming that Matthew, the murdered victim, was also somehow either aware or involved in that scam?

DAULTON: What they`re saying is that no one knows whether he was involved or not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As we wrap up, Martha Zoller, what is the big picture here? Is this just a very, very tragic case, or does it point to larger problems in our society with women expressing their discontent when they`re having problems in marriage with double standards?

ZOLLER: Well, I don`t know. I don`t know too many women that aren`t comfortable just talking about their problems incessantly. I mean, that`s one thing that women are known for.

But I think that this is -- it`s a sad story, because it`s so shocking, because of the children. I think we`re drawn to this, because the idea that a woman would murder her husband with her children in the house, it`s so foreign to us and we don`t want to believe it. And even though -- I`m very hard on this case. I mean, I think that she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but it is still something we don`t want to believe.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. And I`ve got to tell you that her trial comes up on October 30th. And of course, the NANCY GRACE show will be there and be on top of this case, tracking it every step of the way.

We would like to thank all of our guests for their insights. And thanks to you at home for tracking these very important cases with us. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, have a terrific and a safe evening.

END