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Karr offered details in Ramsey murder only investigators and medical examiner knew;

Aired August 18, 2006 - 21:00   ET


JOHN MARK KARR: Her death was an accident.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN GUEST HOST: Tonight, after all the questions raised about the JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect's story, now word he's allegedly provided gruesome details about the condition of her body, details never made public known only to law enforcement and the medical examiner.

What next? When will the suspect be brought back to the U.S.? And, what about his ex-wife's claim the suspect was with her that Christmas when JonBenet was murdered? We'll talk to her lawyer.

And, from Bangkok to Boulder, Colorado, we'll be looking for answers next on LARRY KING LIVE.


ROWLANDS: And, good evening everybody. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in tonight for Larry King in Boulder, Colorado.

Larry will be back on Monday with an exclusive interview with Lin Wood, the Ramsey family attorney, the first interview from Wood since the arrest in this case; also, on Monday, Michael Tracy (ph), the professor that led authorities to John Karr, the suspect in the case that coming up on Monday when Larry is back on LARRY KING LIVE.

Tonight, we want to start with the latest in this case. There has been some news today. We're going to talk with first in Miami Susan Candiotti, CNN National Correspondent. She broke the news today that John Karr may have some details, intimate details that nobody else knows and may have led to his arrest at least in part.

In Hamilton, Alabama, David Mattingly, CNN Correspondent, with more information about Karr's part.

And, in Bangkok, Thailand, Drew Griffin, CNN Investigative Reporter with the latest on what is going on in Thailand and when we can expect John Karr to come back.

We want to start with you, Susan, in Miami. Tell us what you know about what this suspect may have known that not too many people do know and may have led to his arrest.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ted, we have been hearing that Karr had been talking about parts of the crime that no one had heard about that possibly only the killer had known.

Now, a few more details, according to a U.S. law enforcement official he tells CNN that John Mark Karr offered some graphic, gruesome details about the physical condition of JonBenet Ramsey's body, information that has been kept secret all these ten years, information known only by the medical examiner and the lead investigators on this case, again information that had not been made public.

It is unclear how Karr would have had access to this information. Is it something that only the killer had known or something that might have been told by the killer to someone else? Again, this is something that investigators are looking at. It's obviously why they're very interested in him.

ROWLANDS: Did you get the feeling talking to your sources that this was a major piece of the puzzle that led to his arrest and led to the decision that pulled the trigger here in Boulder and bring him back?

CANDIOTTI: Well, undoubtedly authorities, you know, are looking at this man from every different angle. There are a lot of strange aspects about him to be sure. But this is a piece of information that clearly gives one pause. So, the investigation, you know, is fresh. It is ongoing.

Obviously they're talking to him and more information we hope will come out once he is moved from Thailand to the United States. Perhaps we will learn more information when he makes that first court appearance in Colorado when that arrest warrant is offered up in court.

Of course, we don't know that for sure. They might be holding some information back but certainly it's not uncommon for investigators in any homicide investigation to keep some information private and under wraps just in case they do catch a suspect they believe to be the killer to make sure that all the information isn't out there so they can cross check that against someone they suspect might possibly be the real killer.

ROWLANDS: We're getting more information about John Karr today, some of the e-mails that he was sending with a professor here in Boulder were published in a newspaper and some of it is very bizarre.

David Mattingly, you've been looking into his past in Alabama specifically. What have you been able to determine talking to people there about his life in the past living in Alabama and elsewhere?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: People who knew him when he was going to school here back in the high schools days say that he didn't seem to have a really settled life.

He would come here and live for a while with his grandparents, then go back to Atlanta to live with his father, where his father and brother live today. And then he came back here very briefly only at the beginning of senior year before leaving again. When he was younger one teacher told me they actually had a going away party for him. His classmates liked him a lot. They threw a little going away party for him, had some presents for him, because he thought he was going to be moving back to Georgia to be with his father. But that didn't happen for some reason. That trip never took place and he stayed her for a while even after he had that going away party.

And he was always having a way of getting attention, calling attention to himself we were told and some odd things. When he was younger he nicknamed himself "Jew Boy" and he's not Jewish and no one could ever explain why he was calling himself that.

One thing that no one can really explain is his senior year he was driving to school, driving a bright, red DeLorean. Nobody knows where he got it. Nobody really asked and nobody really cared because he was quite a spectacle and something to be talked about here.

ROWLANDS: Drew Griffin, in Bangkok, Thailand, when can we expect the extradition process to take and when do we expect Karr back here in Colorado?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: I think Thailand has made it clear they want to get rid of this guy. They'd like to get rid of him as soon as possible. Right now I think it's just logistics.

Ann Hurst (ph), who is the homeland security person from the U.S., visited here in the Central Immigration Detention Center, Ted. Earlier today she came out and told CNN that it's merely taking a little bit more time and a matter of logistics. I think that is really what it is. They're trying to find flights for him and how they're going to transfer him out.

So, literally we're just kind of waiting outside this facility, this detention center, to see when and how he is going to be going back but I don't think there's any legal hold on him here at all. It's just a matter of getting him a ticket and getting him on a plane.

ROWLANDS: What have you learned about his life in Thailand?

GRIFFIN: We've tracked him back as far as December when he moved into a pseudo boarding house type of facility, just kind of a low rent, $185 a month room that a lot of people just like him live in, people who are here to work a little bit, perhaps teach, long-term travelers who are here, very outgoing people, very gregarious people, very adventurous people which those who knew him, Ted, say he was not.

They call him awkward. One person described him as mentally unstable, certainly loner comes across. He didn't talk to anybody, didn't have any friends, no visitors, so he really kind of lived in isolation here in Bangkok. The only thing he did do was apply and try to work at various schools, making it clear at at least two of them that he wanted to work in classrooms with small girls.

ROWLANDS: And, you have some news about an e-mail that he sent to one of these prospective employers?

GRIFFIN: Yes, he was applying. One of the prospective employers gave us his job application which he filled out and he said, "I want to work alone. I don't want to have an attendant in class with me" and was quite eager about getting involved with young children.

And, apparently there was some e-mail exchanges after the application was made, and according to the school administrator, some of those e-mails had attached pornography and some kind of sexually explicit language on them that he's e-mailing back and forth to the school.

We don't know because we haven't been able to question him whether or not that was accidental or not but certainly the school, the would-be employer, perked up and said "No way are we going to let this guy in our school." But apparently he's very loose with the e- mails even here in Bangkok.

ROWLANDS: Amazing, all right, thank you Drew Griffin, David Mattingly, and Susan Candiotti.

We're going to take a break now. When we come back we'll talk about the case building against this young man or this man, 41-year- old John Karr with some legal analysts. Stay with us. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.


JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET: I felt like I had been kicked by a horse, the most horrible feeling. If you ever had that pang of missing your child in a shopping center just for a moment that pain hit me squarely between the eyes and it never left. It was a horrible feeling.

PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET: You don't know what to do first, don't know what to do. You're just panicking.




KARR: I love JonBenet and she died accidentally.


ROWLANDS: And, welcome back everybody to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry tonight.

Joining us now from New York, Lisa Bloom, Court TV anchor and commentator and in Denver, Larry Posner, career criminal defense attorney, past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys.

Lisa, let's start with you. Today CNN is reporting that Karr may have provided or has come up with specific information that nobody else supposedly knew outside of a very, very tight circle.


ROWLANDS: What do you make of that? And, do you think that would be enough for the district attorney here to pull the trigger and make the arrest?

BLOOM: Well, I think that the district attorney had enough to pull the trigger. She only needed to have probable cause. She had that from his confession, from his obsession with the case. She did the right thing yanking this guy out of a classroom full of second graders and protecting all of us and going forward with the investigation. I don't have a problem with that.

But the question is how on earth is there any aspect of this case that's unknown to someone who is obsessed with it, who researches it compulsively online, who reads books about it, who reaches out to a professor who did a documentary on it?

Now to believe that we have to believe that the Boulder Police, which bungled the case from the beginning, they admit that, they've apologized for it, that they managed to do a hold back. That's what it's called in law enforcement when they hold back a piece of evidence so that later on if they catch someone and the person knows that information they know they've got the right guy.

We have to believe that they managed to hold back something and all these years that have gone by with new forensic people being brought in to analyze it, who then went and wrote books about it that everybody has managed to keep this one deep, dark secret about the condition of JonBenet's body.

You know the autopsy is nine pages long. I've read it repeatedly. It's online on the It's been online for years. Anybody can read it. So, it's possible but I think it's very unlikely.

ROWLANDS: All right, Larry, given that then what do you think the district attorney has her in terms of specific evidence that would lead them to make this arrest and bring him back by arresting him for the murder of JonBenet rather than bringing him back on the outstanding warrant in California?

LARRY POSNER, PAST PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYERS: It sure would have been easier to take him to California and quietly investigate the case and then tell us if they have an arrest or not.

But interestingly in most cases when the guy confesses they can tell us about the crime and things nobody knows. But, as Lisa points out, this is the most leaked case in modern times. It's got books. It's got magazines. Everybody has told their story.

What he should know if he's the murderer is how did he meet JonBenet? How did he get to Colorado? Is there any proof he was ever in Boulder? What is his tie to this family? That's the mystery. And so, we know that he's sick enough. We know he has the right characteristics to do this kind of crime but where is any proof that he was following her and obsessed with her before the crime?

ROWLANDS: Lisa, do you think there's any way if the DNA doesn't match that they could get a conviction here?


ROWLANDS: And do you think that it's OK if the DNA doesn't match it's OK to let him go? I mean like you pointed out they pulled him out of a classroom. They arrested him. A lot of people are arrested that are never convicted or never even go to trial.

BLOOM: That's right. Well, imagine if the D.A. had not arrested him, if the D.A. had said "I know there's a guy who claims he killed JonBenet Ramsey who knows every fact about the case backwards and forwards for whom there are five outstanding child porn warrants. I know he's teaching a classroom full of 7-year-olds. But, you know what, I'm just going to trust him not to harm any children. I'm just going to allow him to live overseas on another continent."

I mean that would be a terrible thing. So she did the right thing. Now, even if he's innocent and, of course, he'd have to be released at that point, he'd be sent to California on those misdemeanor charges even if she's innocent -- even if he's innocent she did the right thing.

There is one report today though, Ted, that you may be familiar with from some of the local papers in Colorado that there was a stuffed animal and that there's a photo of this guy Karr with a stuffed animal, a Santa Claus teddy bear that he had as a child and that stuffed animal was found in JonBenet's bedroom the day after she was killed.

Now, if that's so and that's a memento of the crime that can be traced to him that may be just as strong as DNA. Certainly the DNA is going to be a slam dunk for the prosecution. The absence of DNA is going to be very strong for the defense.

But there still could be other evidence, hair, fibers, the High Tech hiking boot. That's the brand name High Tech hiking boot that left an imprint in that basement that's never been traced to anyone. There is other physical evidence that still could link this guy.


ROWLANDS: Larry, what's your gut -- go ahead.

POSNER: Ted, the bizarre thing about this case in most cases the defendant comes in and says, "I didn't do this and you can't prove I did it because I didn't do it." In this case, they ought to be able to prove it. This guy is trying to take responsibility. He should know 1,000 facts that nobody else knows.

BLOOM: Right. POSNER: If that's his teddy bear, he saved it up all of his life and took it to Boulder, maybe.

BLOOM: Yes, as a memento.

POSNER: It would be very compelling. But why would his ex-wife, who divorced him and clearly doesn't like him, look up and say, you know, I know who's at the family table at Christmas and he's there every year.

BLOOM: Right, now apparently she's saying today that that was a general statement. She's going to go back and look at the photos to confirm that. So, we'll have to wait and see on that. But, you know, there are a lot of questions swirling around this case.

He would have had to not only leave his home in Alabama with his wife and three young children during the Christmas season when everybody would have noticed it, go to Colorado and not just go, commit the crime, and come right back.

He would have to go and learn about John Ramsey's Christmas bonus that he got $118,000 exactly after taxes, either by dumpster diving, by investigating this guy, lurking around. So, he would have had to have been there for some time. It does seem far-fetched.

ROWLANDS: What about this? He comes back. This seems judging from his behavior thus far he seems like the guy that could come back here, if they charge him, he could plead guilty.

There would be no trial and just a sentence. What would prevent, if he wasn't actually guilty and he just wanted to be found guilty, what is in place? I mean a judge obviously has to say OK and don't prosecutors too have an obligation to make sure that this is the man and not just accept a guilty plea?

BLOOM: Yes, Ted, if he pleads guilty there is something called an allocution in most states where he doesn't just say "I'm guilty" and we throw the book at him. He has to go through some of the facts and plead guilty and explain what the underlying facts were in support of the crime.

So, unlike with the reporters where he just says "I don't want to answer any questions about the facts. I did it but I'm not going to tell you how I knew the Ramseys, how I got in the basement," et cetera...


BLOOM: ...he's going to have to explain that to the judge and it's going to have to match up because crazy people confess to crimes every day, especially high profile crimes. And so the system is geared to make sure that we got the right guy.

POSNER: Well, yes, but it's the police that we have to count on. They have to investigate to see if this confession is true. And, let's remember it is after all the Boulder Police. What have they done right so far?

ROWLANDS: All right, well I got to comment on that.

BLOOM: Yes, thankfully they only had one murder that year in Boulder so they really weren't as good as they could have been in a homicide investigation.

ROWLANDS: All right, Larry Posner and Lisa Bloom, thank you very much.

When we come back, we're going to talk to the attorney of the suspect's ex-wife, the one that first came out and said that he was home the night of JonBenet's murder, at home at Christmas. We'll get the very latest on what she thinks about that, plus much more.

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.


MARY LACY, BOULDER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: John Karr is presumed innocent. We are rightfully constrained by the code of professional conduct and the presumption of innocence from answering those questions that you want answered this morning.




LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Is the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation turning into a media circus?

DANIEL GLICK, NEWSWEEK: In that same brief by the deputy district attorney where he said an intruder may have done that, in the very same paragraph he said that John and Patricia Ramsey have not been excluded.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: I think the victim was killed accidentally. I really do. I don't think this was intentional.

KING: We recently passed the one year anniversary of the murder of child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey.

J. RAMSEY: I think JonBenet would be proud of us. I know she's proud of us. I know she's watching us right now and we're trying to make good come out of that horrible tragedy.


ROWLANDS: Almost ten years since JonBenet Ramsey died. And over the years on this program obviously a lot of coverage and a lot of mystery.

On Monday, Larry King will be back with an exclusive interview with Lin Wood, the attorney of the Ramsey family and also Professor Michael Tracy, the professor that exchanged e-mails with the suspect in this case.

For more on the suspect in this case, we're going to talk to a couple people that knew him, first one in Nashville, Dale Jenkins. He was a minister at the Church of Christ in Hamilton, Alabama, once attended by John Mark Karr and his family. He presided over funeral services for the Karr's twin children who died at birth.

And in San Francisco, Sylvia Ross, a former neighbor of John Karr.

Dale, I want to start with you. How well do you remember John Karr and what were your impressions of him, what do you remember about him at the time that he attended your church?

DALE JENKINS, SUSPECTS, FORMER MINISTER: Well, Ted, it was the late '80s, perhaps early '90s when John and his young wife, very young wife, Laura, showed up and you can imagine, you know, a young family moves into a community and starts worshipping at a church and people kind of accept them. They had three very beautiful children, three young boys, and Laura was pregnant not long after that and then lost the babies.

John was a real enigma. To some people he seemed very gregarious and outgoing. To other folks he was, you know, rather reserved and almost like a loner, very distant in dealing with people. But, you know, they were an interesting family.

ROWLANDS: When you heard that he was arrested in connection with the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, were you surprised? Did it make sense to some extent? What was your impression and what was your immediate reaction?

JENKINS: Well, obviously I was immediately very shocked at the news but John was kind of a very unusual fellow. He kind of ran by himself a whole lot but then he sometimes liked to be around people. You know, it's difficult to know, you know, if what he was telling you was up and up, if it was 100 percent truth.

He would -- he would talk at length sometimes. He was real fascinating as I mentioned earlier, had that red DeLorean, you know, the DeLorean he painted red and so that kind of made him a fascinating person to people.

He was not real involved in the church, so not a lot of folks got to know him. In a very large church you'd think there would be a lot of folks who would have gotten to know him. People tried to kind of embrace this young family especially after the death of the twins but they were very distant from that.

ROWLANDS: Sylvia Ross, what were your impressions of him as a neighbor?

SYLVIA ROSS, FORMER NEIGHBOR OF JOHN KARR: He was very gregarious and talkative person, well groomed, fairly direct. ROWLANDS: What do you mean direct?

ROSS: He -- he asked a lot of questions. We got on some common ground when he talked about his substitute teaching and so I rather think he was comfortable talking with me about his teaching experience.

ROWLANDS: Now do you think he is capable of something like this or were you completely shocked? Is this a different person that you knew as your neighbor?

ROSS: Yesterday when I first heard I was shocked. Today as I think of the whole thing in retrospect I think he could be capable.

ROWLANDS: Dale Jenkins, you mentioned that you weren't quite sure if he was always telling you the truth in conversations when you were the pastor. Do you think he's capable of concocting an elaborate story and may be claiming that he was there that night but is actually lying?

JENKINS: Well, that's real difficult to say. I'm not an attorney or a judge. But, you know, you kind of get the impression that, you know, we all want to see the Ramseys exonerated from this. And, you know, it kind of goes along and it's possible he got so engulfed in it that maybe he even convinced himself, you know. He believed a lie. He convinced himself that he did this. That's possible I suppose.

ROWLANDS: How did he treat his children?

JENKINS: He was a pretty stern disciplinarian it seemed like with them. His wife always stayed very close to him. She was extremely quiet, very rarely said much of anything, and the kids he expected them, you know, a lot of young dads are that way but he expected them to be extremely well behaved and they were very energetic young guys but they were -- they were real cute kids.

ROWLANDS: All right, Dale Jenkins, Sylvia Ross, thanks for your insight. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 and nobody I'm sure could have predicted that he would be in this situation that he is now. Thanks very much for joining us.

We're going to take a break. When we come back we're going to talk to Bob Grant, the former district attorney in this region. He was part of a task force in the early years during the investigation. He knows about the evidence. We'll ask him his impressions of the case.

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.


P. RAMSEY: Here are a couple of her paintings. This is a picture of the -- the fairgrounds in northern Michigan. She always liked to ride the carousel and the Ferris wheel, so she painted a picture of it. I think that was pretty good for a 6-year-old. This is one she did around Halloween. Here's her pumpkin and I don't know if you can see it or not but she painted a little spider web up here in the tree.




PATSY RAMSEY, DECEASED MOTHER ON JONBENET RAMSEY: Could you ever conceive of doing something to this child?

KING: In Boulder, Colorado today, district attorney Alex Hunter seems to be marshaling all his forces in the JonBenet Ramsey case.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEY: No, there's no way this case will ever be brought to a successful resolution, unless there is a third party and he comes forward.

KING: Tonight it's the six-month anniversary of JonBenet Ramsey's murder. Are we any closer to discovering her killer?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've had the entire world descend upon us and descend upon this case. Nobody knows a damn thing.

PAM PAUGH, SISTER OF PATSY RAMSEY: She was fun, spiritual. Just a love and a joy to be around.

JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: This was an evil, evil person who did this. Do we know them? I can't imagine that we would.


ROWLANDS: And welcome back, everybody, to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry in Boulder, Colorado. Joining us now in Boulder is Bob Grant the former district attorney for Adams County, Colorado. He was part of a task force advising the district attorney in the Ramsey case in 1997 through 1999. Now a law professor at Denver University.

Bob, your impressions on this arrest, knowing what you do about this case? Does it make sense that this individual could be responsible for JonBenet's murder?

BOB GRANT, FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Tim (sic), the operative word in that sentence you used was could. Yes, it makes sense. Obviously he fits a profile of a sexual predator. Obviously he has made statements that would seem to indicate that he had something to do with it. But just as obviously nothing's going to be solved here until we find out how his DNA matches up with the unknown DNA samples in this case.

ROWLANDS: Is that what it's going to come down to, unless there's a match, they're probably not going to get a conviction here? GRANT: You know, I think knowing what I know about the case, it's going to be very, very difficult. Without that, or a match to the palm print that was found at the crime scene. Mary Lacey, the D.A. out here, obviously knows a lot more than we do about what he has said so far, and knows a lot more about how what he has said matches up with the evidence in this case.

But I find it hard to believe that this is a case where you can say, hey, there's a killer that knows something that nobody else knows. There's just so much that's been put out in the public domain about this investigation.

ROWLANDS: Referring obviously to the reports today that part of the reason that Karr may have been brought in is because he knew intimate details about the condition on JonBenet Ramsey's body after the murder. You're saying that there just isn't, from that you know, anything that hasn't already been out in the public domain? You don't give that much credence?

GRANT: Well, I know there were things that when I was involved in the investigation, we tried to keep from the public domain. I can't find in my memory banks, and this is going back 10 years, anything that I know that you guys don't know, if you want to go looking. I suspect there may be some of those things. And like I say, I have faith in Mary Lacey, and I suspect she's matched some of the statements he's made that we don't know about against some of the evidence that perhaps we don't know about.

ROWLANDS: If indeed at some point, maybe the DNA doesn't match or the prosecution decides not to go forward for whatever reason, how will that affect this case, moving forward and how will it affect the D.A.'s office here? There's a lot at stake, is there not?

GRANT: Sure. I have to say this. I've known Mary for a long time. I think she's a very cautious individual. She's a tough prosecutor, good trial lawyer. The tone of that press conference yesterday was not a tone I have seen her take often. I think she was put in a position by circumstances to issue, or request issuance of that arrest warrant before she was really ready to do it.

The fact of the matter is, there's a public safety concern here. This guy, as I say, fits the profile of every sexual predator I've known. And they find him -- when think finally find him, he's working in an elementary school. And he's a clear flight risk living in a flea bag motel.

So I think she issued that warrant a little bit before she really wanted to, but she did it for all the right reasons, for the public safety reasons, making sure he didn't flee reasons. And now she's got tough work to do to get the DNA match in order to make this case.

ROWLANDS: And if the DNA doesn't match, do you suspect that they will just not file charges against him, or what do you expect they'll do at that point?

GRANT: You know, unless she knows a lot more than I know, which is entirely possible, I'd find it hard as a D.A. to say, I believe I can convict this guy beyond a reasonable doubt without that DNA match. She may have it, but it will be a tough, tough road.

ROWLANDS: All right, Bob Grant, thanks very much for your insight. Bob Grant, former district attorney, one of the advisers in this case in the early days. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for your insight. We're going to take a break. Coming up, Michael Rains, he is the attorney for the suspect's ex-wife. The ex-wife says he was home during the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. He wasn't even in the state of Colorado. We'll talk to Michael Rains coming up. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us.


ROWLANDS: And welcome back, everybody, to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry tonight. One of the people that came out right away after this arrest and put some doubt into the prosecution's case is the ex-wife of John Karr, saying that she thought that John Karr was with her on December 26th, 1996, and could not have been in the state of Colorado and could not, therefore, have committed the murder. Michael Rains is the attorney for Karr's ex- wife. Michael, I know you told her to go back, look for photos, look for information to refresh her memory. What did she find?

MICHAEL RAINS, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN KARR'S EX-WIFE: Well, she's in the process of doing that right now and we don't have a definitive answer. Her best recollection still is that during the years they were married, that John was with the family every Christmas during that period of time.

ROWLANDS: Where were they in 1996?

RAINS: They were living in Alabama. And I might add that they were, you know, dirt poor. They did not have a lot of income. Lara literally can not recall any time when John would have gotten on any kind of a plane, would have taken an extended trip to be away from the family. And that's what certainly stands out in her mind right now.

ROWLANDS: For him to have committed this murder, obviously living in Alabama, he's going to need a day to drive there, and a day to come back. We're talking not just about a few hours away from the family, but a significant amount of time around a holiday. What's your gut feeling on this, given what your client says about his whereabouts?

RAINS: Well, you know, she is an incredible woman. She's got a very good memory. She's very smart. She's given a lot of thought to this subject. And I might add that, you know, really, she has no reason to support her ex-husband. She really has nothing good to say about him. She does not support him. She would, I think, agonize to think for the moment that she could supply information that would be an alibi for this man. And yet, if she is truthful, and of course, that's exactly what she's going to be, she may well supply that alibi.

ROWLANDS: Does she think he's capable of this? RAINS: You know, I asked her if during their time together, he was ever physically threatening, menacing and violent, and the answer was no, he was not physical. But there were so many other things about his unusual, odd, mean, controlling, demented behavior, that I suspect, as an attorney, and a former police officer, he's probably capable of doing this. I think she is ambivalent at this point as to whether he could have done it.

ROWLANDS: Reports today that John Karr was obsessed with the Polly Klaas case, also taking place in Petaluma, where they eventually lived. Does your client have any knowledge of him being involved, or interested in that case, and does it make sense to her that he may have been actually corresponding with Richard Allen Davis, the man who was convicted in that case?

RAINS: She did not know that he ever corresponded with Richard Allen Davis. What she did know is she would see him on the Internet, on the computer, and she has indicated that he seemed to be unusually interested in the Klaas case, as well as the Ramsey case and was on the computer a great deal of the time, you know, dealing with that, listening or making reports, listening to reports, looking at documents. So she was aware of that. However, when they moved to California from Alabama, both of them had already secure job offers. He had a job offer in San Francisco to do some teaching. She had a job offer up in Santa Rosa, up in that area, and so they didn't just show up here looking for work. Both of them had already landed jobs when they moved.

ROWLANDS: All right, Michael Rains, your client could be a key part of this case, as she goes back to try to figure out if indeed she was with the accused suspect when this murder took place. Thanks for joining us Michael. Right now we want to head out to New York and check in with Rick Sanchez, who is filling in tonight for Anderson Cooper. Rick, what have you got coming up?

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Ted. Coming up at the top of the hour on "360," new details that you haven't heard yet on the John Ramsey, John Karr mystery, including how the arrest in Thailand actually went down, the surveillance and the sting as well.

Also what Hezbollah is doing to keep the momentum on their side. Here's a hint. It involves cold hard American dollars. That, and a whole lot more, right here at the top of the hour. Ted, back over to you.

ROWLANDS: All right, thank you, Rick. We're going to take a break. When we come back, we'll talk Cyril Wecht, Henry Lee, Dr. Michael Welner and Bob Grant will be back. We'll talk about the case. Cyril Wecht has some very strong opinions about it. He thinks they have the wrong man. Stay with us. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.


PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JENBENET: I go down the spiral staircase, and there on one of the runs of the stair is the three-page ransom note. LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: And no one has entered the house, the door isn't open, you read the note?

P. RAMSEY: I don't know that.

KING: What did you do?

P. RAMSEY: Well, I hardly read it and, you know, it didn't take long to understand what was happening. And I ran back upstairs and pushed open her bedroom door and she was gone.


ROWLANDS: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Ted Rowlands, filling in for Larry tonight. Joining us now again, Bob Grant in Boulder Colorado, former Adams County district attorney. He was part of a panel that advised prosecutors in the early investigation in the JonBenet Ramsey case. Dr. Henry Lee is in New York tonight. He is the chief emerst (ph) of Connecticut state police forensics laboratory, professor of forensic science at the University of New Haven, and author of "Blood Crimes."

In Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Cyril Wecht, acclaimed forensic pathologist and former Allegheny County coroner and author of the book "Who Killed JonBenet." And in New York, Dr. Michael Welner, a leading forensic psychiatrist.

We're going to start with a couple of quotes that were published in the "Rocky Mountain News" today. These e-mails purportedly from Karr to Professor Michael Tracey. I want to read just a couple of these and get your opinion. The first one says, "JonBenet, my love, my life. I love you and shall forever love you. I pray that you can hear my voice calling out to you from my darkness, this darkness that now separates us." Another one said, "I will tell you that I can understand people like Michael Jackson and feel sympathy when he suffers as he has." Dr. Wellner, your impressions of these e-mails and your impressions of the suspect from what you know?

DR. MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: With a caution of not having examined him, I think a few points have emerged that really touched my attention, based on my experience as a forensic psychiatrist. There is something about his manner and about his comportment that's really quite peculiar. Just seeing him on tape, how he carries himself, almost effeat (ph). I think it's notable that one of his teaching colleagues in Thailand pointed out that he experienced him as not playing with a full deck. Your viewers should recognize that lots of people look at child pornography. If somebody comes across as not playing with a full deck, it has nothing to do with whether he has pedophilia, or is a consumer of child pornography.

So that kind of writing doesn't make sense. There's something peculiar about it. And it certainly makes one wonder. In conjunction with him having cut off contact with his family, disappeared to the end that they actually wondered whether he was dead, as to whether in recent years he has stumbled into a very serious psychiatric condition and taking with it an obsession about JonBenet Ramsey into something more than obsessional and a bit more irrational.

ROWLANDS: Dr. Lee, many people think that this is going to come down to DNA. It's been almost 10 years. Would the DNA sample have broken down? Is it still usable, in your opinion, most likely?

LEE: Well, the DNA, they found some foreign DNA. One source of DNA is found on her underpants, with some small amount of bloodstain. The second one is from fingernail scrapings. Those DNA are already analyzed by Boulder, Colorado, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation Forensic Laboratory. So those DNA are really in digital form. So the time aging is no longer an issue. The DNA are already exact. The profile is already made. So right now, basically the collection is no DNA and transfer that to digital form and compare it with the question DNA found on Jon Benet Ramsey's underpants and fingernails.

ROWLANDS: Understood, so it really doesn't matter because they have taken the imprint and they have the analysis already done. Cyril Wecht, you have heard undoubtedly today some more information coming out specifically that he may have known specifics, the suspect, about JonBenet's body after the murder. Are you still convinced that they have the wrong man here?

WECHT: Well, I've heard from a lot of people who have been deeply involved in this case, and everybody seems to be quite perplexed and puzzled as to what this special information is. And I've been wondering about what it is.

No, I haven't changed my opinion. I am fascinated by my friend and respected colleague, Dr. Michael Welner's comments. As a forensic psychiatrist, I have been pushing forensic psychiatry on this from two days ago, badly needed in this case.

This man, he is in the realm of a psychosis. There's no question in my mind. Michael, you'll forgive me for intruding into your realm of expertise. The business about Christmas, we discussed this before, maybe he flew on that same magic carpet from Alabama to Colorado and back again in just a couple of hours that he used to enter the home and exit without leaving any trace or evidence of himself.

You know, this is Christmastime. And I think if something like about 1,500 miles from Alabama to Colorado. He has referred to as a drive, day and a drive back. Well maybe it could be done. In whose car? Who paid for the gas?

I mean, let's get serious here. Do you think if this was a terrorist that the FBI was investigating, that they could not ascertain where somebody was 10 years ago around a Christmas holiday? You know, it takes money to live. It takes credit card transactions to buy gas and to pay for food and so on.

Let us get into this and see where this man was. And if he wasn't in Boulder, that's the end of it. If he's in Boulder, let's move from there. The DNA, why wasn't the DNA tested before they went into all of this? As Dr. Lee pointed out, that DNA is in place from JonBenet Ramsey. They could have picked up a specimen from John Karr. Same thing with writing exemplars for the questioned documents, for the forensic linguistics people to look at the language, the grammar, the punctuation, the phraseology of that letter. There are things that can and should be done.

WELNER: Yes, there are psychiatric reasons.

ROWLANDS: OK, we're going to -- we've got to take a quick break and then we will continue this discussion. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away, we'll be right back.


LOU SMIT, FORMER COLORADO HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: I see a brutal, first-degree murder. I see a very violent death of JonBenet. I see someone fashioning the rope and putting it around her neck. I see someone tightening that to control her. I see someone taking that handle and pulling it very violently tight and killing her.



ROWLANDS: Bob Grant, the questions that we are asking now seem like pretty basic questions. Wouldn't the district attorney's office ask these when he first was on the radar screen? And are you confident that they do have significant evidence here, or they wouldn't have made the arrest?

GRANT: Ted, I'm sure that the D.A.'s office looked at all of these things. I am just as sure that what they know about his statements, that we don't know, made it appropriate for them to at least file this probable cause warrant. Bottom line, if the DNA is his, he's a killer. If it's not his, they've got a tough road to hoe.

ROWLANDS: OK, we don't have a lot of time. Dr. Lee, what's your gut feeling on this? Do you think that they have the right man here?

LEE: Well, maybe. As Bob Grant said, we have to look at the evidence, let the evidence speak for itself. The crime scene still has a lot of unknown factors which, if he can provide information, inside information about the ligature and the rest of it can be a true individual.

ROWLANDS: And Dr. Welner, do you think indeed he has the capability, from what you know, to commit something like this, or not?

WELNER: All I know is that a home invasion child homicide is a crime of acquaintance. And as a forensic psychiatrist, I would want to know how they were acquainted. Was there any contact beforehand? Was there casing? Was there access? And how did he prepare to get into that home? Those are the things that I'm curious about. It relates to obsessional attachment and it relates to pedophilia. Those are the forensic psychiatric issues of this case.

ROWLANDS: All right. Dr. Wecht, we know where you stand. Thanks to all of you. Bob Grant, Dr. Henry Lee, Dr. Cyril Wecht and Dr. Michael Welner. That will do it for us on LARRY KING LIVE. Thank you very much for joining us.

Larry will be back on Monday night with an exclusive interview with Lin Wood, the Ramsey family attorney, his first interview since -- the first extended interview since the arrest was made. Also Michael Tracey will join him, the professor who led the authorities to the suspect in this case. I'm Ted Rowlands filling in for Larry, thanks for joining us tonight. Let's head it out to Rick Sanchez, who is in New York City filling in tonight for Anderson Cooper. Rick?


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