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CNN LIVE SUNDAY

Shootings at Apartment Complex in Texas; Security in Commercial Cargo on Airplanes; Passengers Discuss Being on Flight with John Mark Karr

Aired August 20, 2006 - 18:28   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: We are updating you every 15 minutes, so this is what's happening in the news right now.
Murder suspect John Mark Karr is somewhere between five and six hours from landing in the United States, and he could face charges of first-degree murder, child sexual assault, and kidnapping in connection with 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey.

You are looking at the mayhem today in Baghdad. Gunmen defied heavy security and opened fire on Shiite pilgrims. At least 20 people were killed and more than 300 wounded.

And the media around the world, including Al-Jazeera, airing an appeal from the family of journalist Steve Centanni. The FOX News reporter and his cameraman were kidnapped in Gaza last week.

Israel says it won't allow the presence of Lebanese troops within a mile of its border unless multinational forces are with them. It also says any peacekeepers sent to southern Lebanon must come from countries which recognize Israel as a legitimate nation.

And Iran said today it has no plans to halt its nuclear program. It says it will make an official response on Tuesday to the incentives package offered by six world powers, including the United States.

At the half-hour, John Mark Karr remains our top story. The confessed killer of JonBenet Ramsey will arrive in the United States later this evening.

Now, it's not that often that a known murder suspect flies commercial, but this is one of those days.

CNN's Stan Grant talks to other passengers booked on that flight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): What a flight to be on, Thai Airways direct Bangkok-Los Angeles, and John Mark Karr is your fellow passenger. He's on your flight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he in handcuffs?

GRANT: Indeed he is on the flight. Karr arrived at Bangkok airport flanked by police and straight into a media pack, a scene so familiar to that last week, paraded in front of cameras with this stunning statement.

JOHN MARK KARR: I loved JonBenet, and she died accidentally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you an innocent man?

KARR: No.

GRANT: This day no comment, a small man lost in the throng. He was dressed in a shirt and tie, Thai officials telling CNN Karr asked them, quote, I want to dress well. I want to dress like a teacher for the last time. 41-year-old Karr, a teacher in Bangkok, before his arrest. As he was fast-tracked through customs, his fellow passengers were only just learning Karr would be on the flight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not happy about that. You know, but I'm glad they caught him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really wouldn't care. It's a long flight. We're all uncomfortable and what's he going to do, get up? Where are you going to go? It's an airplane.

GRANT: A long flight to Los Angeles, yes it certainly is, about 15 hours from here, and awaiting John Karr, a lot of questions. Stan Grant, CNN, Bangkok.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL LIN, ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SUNDAY: On Monday, Larry King is going to have an exclusive interview with Ramsey family attorney Lin Wood and the Colorado professor who led police to Karr. That's Monday at 9:00 Eastern.

In a post-9/11 environment when you have a senior Democratic senator now running as an independent and backed by the GOP, you realize that Joe Lieberman's position on the Iraq war and the war on terror will make or break any politician's career. Now the president is jumping into the political fight. CNN's White House correspondent Elaine Quijano joins us live. Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Carol. The political countdown clock is ticking. It is the backdrop for the current debate over U.S. foreign policy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUIJANO (voice-over): After a weekend at Camp David, President Bush returned to Washington, where the political debate over Iraq and national security grew more complex. Senator Joe Lieberman on the outs with Democrats over his staunch support of the Iraq war, tried to distance himself from the president, by repeating his call for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to step down.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D) CONNECTICUT: I believe that our conduct of the war in Iraq would benefit from some fresh leadership at the Pentagon. QUIJANO: Lieberman was defeated in Connecticut's primary by anti- war candidate Ned Lamont. Now running as an independent, Lieberman is standing by his assertion that setting a deadline for U.S. troop withdrawals would a mistake.

LIEBERMAN: The terrorists, al Qaeda and the rest would use Iraq as a safe haven from which to strike other countries in the Middle East and the United States of America.

JOHN KERRY: I'm concerned that he is making a Republican case and he's uttering almost the same words as Vice President Cheney and I think it's inappropriate. The fact is Joe Lieberman is out of step with the people of Connecticut.

QUIJANO: Within the GOP, there is also dissatisfaction over foreign policy. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, a potential presidential candidate in 2008, criticized the administration's attempts to isolate countries like Iran.

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R) NEBRASKA: Iran probably has more influence in Iraq today than any other country. They are the big winners so far in the Middle East. I don't see how the Middle East is getting better, how America is safer, how the world is safer as a result of isolating or attempting to isolate countries and not deal with them.

QUIJANO: And continuing disagreements on Iraq from another potential presidential hopeful, Republican Senator John McCain.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN (R) ARIZONA: All along we have not had enough troops on the ground to control the situation. Many, many people knew that and we're paying a very heavy price for it. I want to emphasize, we cannot lose this. It will cause chaos in Iraq and in the region, and I still believe that we must prevail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUIJANO: Now Iraq continues to be the primary issue weighing down President Bush's approval rating, but by linking Iraq to the larger war on terror, Mr. Bush is trying to make the case that success in Iraq is inextricably linked to security for Americans. Carol?

LIN: Elaine, speaking of security for Americans, Iran conducting military exercises, clearly wanting the spotlight, the camera to show its military might. The president has been very specific about what Iran should do about its nuclear program. Iran responded today saying they're not going to do anything so any response from the White House?

QUIJANO: What the White House is saying is that the latest show of military force by Iran really demonstrates and is a reminder according to a White House spokeswoman of the dangers that Iran poses in terms of its nuclear ambitions. Now, at the same time you're absolutely right. The White House again today reiterating that August 31st deadline for Iran to comply with a stoppage, a suspension of its enrichment-related activities. Now, the U.S. is once again warning as it has in the past that if Iran does not comply, there will be swift action at the United Nations for sanctions but continuing with those threats, Iran, as you noted, coming back there, taking a very strident line. Carol.

LIN: Elaine, hearing the fire engines. Is there anything we should know about?

QUIJANO: I can't tell you actually. I can't see beyond the tree line but I believe it's probably not anything to be concerned about.

LIN: Pennsylvania Avenue tends to be pretty busy. Thanks, Elaine.

With the spotlight squarely on national security, big questions remain about airport cargo and your baggage. Next on CNN LIVE SUNDAY, we examine how safe and secure American airports really are.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Now in the news, murder suspect John Mark Karr is somewhere between five or six hours from landing in the United States. He could face charges of first degree murder, child sexual assault and kidnapping, in connection with six-year-old JonBenet Ramsey.

And you're looking at the mayhem today in Baghdad. Gunmen defied heavy security and opened fire on Shiite pilgrims. At least 20 people were killed and more than 300 wounded.

And media throughout the world, including al Jazeera airing an appeal from the family of journalist Steve Centanni. The Fox News reporter and his cameraman were kidnapped in Gaza last week.

Israel says it will not allow the presence of Lebanese troops within a mile of its border unless multinational forces are with them. It also says any peacekeepers sent to southern Lebanon must come from countries that recognize Israel as a legitimate nation.

Iran said today it has no plans to halt its nuclear program. It says it will make an official response today to the incentives package offered by six world powers, including the United States.

And Congo's President Joseph Kabila faces a runoff against a former warlord. A short time ago, the Congolese election commission announced Kabila was the top vote getter but failed to win a majority in the country's elections.

If you want to get on a plane, you have to take off your shoes and keep liquids out of your carry-on and go through a metal detector. What about the commercial cargo going on your flight? Drew Griffin looks into that question for Paula Zahn.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the line most passengers don't see, thousands and thousands of trucks a day, lining up to bring millions of tons of cargo on to passenger planes. And how much of that gets inspected? How much of that even gets looked at before it's placed right into the belly of the plane you fly? According to this Federal Aviation Administration inspector, on most of the flights, this inspector oversees almost none. We've been in this business awhile. Are we safer or just as vulnerable as 9/11?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In respect to the cargo, we're probably as vulnerable or maybe more vulnerable.

GRIFFIN: More vulnerable?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cargo still has a lot of loopholes, where something can get on that airplane.

GRIFFIN: Fearing employer retaliation, the inspector has asked not to be identified. As CNN crisscrossed the country over three months, at airport after airport, we saw how easy it would be for terrorists to get explosives or lethal chemicals onto an airplane, to tamper with loads on cargo trucks and how simple it was for us to drive down this road outside Chicago's O'Hare airport and walk right up to containers sitting outside a post office air cargo facility.

Anybody could come up to any of these and put anything inside them. These are unit load devices that will be loaded into the bottom of a plane. We're standing outside O'Hare airport. This is where a Federal airline official brought us, because of the concern of safety. For three weeks last year, we kept coming back to this mail facility and kept finding the same easy access. U.S. Postal Service told CNN it relies on its employees to report suspicious activity and told us the gate to the facility was left open because so many airlines need access to pick up and drop off cargo. Just this week, we returned and found the gate open again. Another veteran airline employee who did not want to be identified says he sees uninspected cargo going on to passenger planes every day. Is there any government airline, local police screening that's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None that I noticed.

GRIFFIN: What the airline industry does say is 100 percent of the cargo is screened through the air industry's known shipper program. Simply put, it is a list of freight handlers with whom the airlines work. There are 400,000 known shippers.

JAMES MAY, AIR TRANSPORT ASSOCIATION: That does not mean inspect it. It does not mean physically, we do not physically inspect 100 percent of the cargo going aboard our planes. No, we don't.

GRIFFIN: Practically speaking, our airline worker says if a known shipper shows up at an airport with a package and gives the airline a piece of paper describing what's inside, that is essentially all the screening it gets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's my understanding. I am not aware of the process prior to the freight arrival to the airport but when it gets to the airport, whatever was done to inspect that freight has been done.

GRIFFIN: Clark Kent Ervin, the former inspector general for Homeland Security, says while the Transportation Security Administration has made huge progress in screening all passengers and their luggage, air cargo on passenger planes is virtually untouched. CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: There's a glaring vulnerability when there are virtually no inspections whatsoever.

GRIFFIN: While in office, Ervin repeatedly pointed out holes in air cargo security, he says to little avail. The actual percentage of cargo inspected is kept secret by the TSA for security reasons, but CNN has been told by other officials with knowledge of air cargo security it could be as low as 2 percent.

ERVIN: I would say it's very low indeed. So it's ironic, tragically ironic that we are still leaving air cargo security up to the airlines, when we all have this post-9/11 experience now.

GRIFFIN: The Transportation Safety Administration has hired 100 new cargo inspectors, but that would put the nationwide total now at just 300 to cover thousands of flights every day. The TSA says it has sharply upgraded its security and is focusing more on detecting bombs in cargo.

KIP HAWLEY, TSA DIRECTOR: We're going to do whatever we have to do to assure the safety of the traveling public and we're comfortable that the level we are now meets the threat.

GRIFFIN: But many in the industry, many in government and even current TSA employees tell CNN, air cargo remains a huge hole in America's security net. Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Catch more of Drew's terrific reporting on "Paula Zahn Now" weeknights at 8:00 Eastern.

This breaking news just into the CNN center. There is a standoff at an apartment complex about 25 miles southwest of Dallas and three police officers and a state trooper have been shot at that standoff. This is going on right now over the last couple of hours. The conditions of the four are not immediately available, but we're going to be following this story and bring you any developments as soon as they happen.

In the meantime, we want to get back to our top, the story that you just saw by Drew Griffin on airport safety and cargo safety. Helping to us answer some of these questions is the former Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary Admiral David Stone. He joins us live from Washington. Admiral Stone, good to have you.

DAVID STONE, FMR DHS ASST: SECRETARY: Thank you Carol. Great to be here today.

LIN: You were essentially in charge of the TSA up until about sometime last year. Taking a look at Drew Griffin's report, is this a gaping loophole in the system? How dangerous is the situation?

STONE: Well I wouldn't call it a gaping hole. I'd say we live with risk associated with air cargo and that there are about half a dozen layers of security that have been put in to mitigate or reduce that risk. As you know, our primary emphasis here is on intelligence gathering because we know full well that we need to go after the terrorist archer before those 20 terrorist arrows are launched. And so intelligence gathering and work at the national counterterrorism centers in association with the Department of Homeland Security is a key piece of this. But those layers I mentioned as you talked about 100 percent of all air cargo has to be shipped by a known shipper before it gets on a commercial aircraft. Hundreds of TSA cargo inspectors have been hired to go out to those cargo facilities and ensure that they're in compliance with that requirement.

LIN: How do you explain those cargo holds that were behind gates that were wide open as they were ready to be loaded on airplanes and nothing but a piece of paper warranted that they were indeed safe?

STONE: Right now if you come to an airport and you want to ship from counter to counter, over 250 of those airports nationwide are using TSA screeners and X-ray machines.

LIN: But there are no screeners at the gates where Drew was standing which showed that anybody, including himself could walk on there, slip something in those cargo boxes and then they would be loaded onto an airplane.

STONE: Those facilities, I was just, one of my last weeks at LAX taking the mayor of Los Angeles to look at those facilities because it's the responsibility of the Federal security director to work in partnership with the airport to make sure that the security plants keep those gates closed at the appropriate hours, but also open when you need the flow of people in and out of those facilities and so we have, I think, a very good plan to mitigate that risk and when you see...

LIN: What is that plan? Because it sounds like, I don't want this to sound like finger pointing. Mr. Mayor, it's your responsibility or really the Feds need to come in. Who is responsible? What's being done to make sure that somebody doesn't walk into an unlocked, unsecured area, put something in a cargo box that's going to be loaded and when only 98 percent of those holds are actually checked.

STONE: It's a public/private partnership, as you would expect it to be. TSA is the lead agency at our nation's airports to make sure that those cargo inspectors, the canines, a program is developed to ensure that there is risk assessments done and that we're not living with any more vulnerability that we need to until technology is available to us to screen 100 percent of that air cargo. We've tripled last year the amount of air cargo on passenger ships, aircraft that are being inspected and also we come up with a proof of concept demonstration recently completed that allows us to take a look at the algorithms associated with those shippers and identify...

LIN: I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means. You're trying to figure out which planes would be most likely targeted?

STONE: No. I think if you look at the maritime situation with containers today where the customs and border protection uses an algorithm to determine high risk containers and inspects those. Recently TSA just completed a proof and concept (ph) demonstration that allows them to take a look at the feasibility of that. And I think that should be something that moves forward to give us an additional layer.

LIN: Ultimate risk assessment but at this point, perhaps just a guessing job as long as there's not a body at that gate or that box goes through, you know, some kind of screening process. I know they're working on it, but you know, a little uneasy for a lot of us who travel.

STONE: I think that's the physical security aspect you mentioned. But I think advanced technology also needs to be put in play in here for screening.

LIN: All right, David Stone, appreciate (INAUDIBLE).

In the meantime, we are working on this developing story, this breaking news out of Texas. It's about 25 miles southwest of Dallas and you're looking at the first pictures of this neighborhood, Midlothian, Texas, where a shootout occurred about a couple of hours ago and three police officers and a state trooper were wounded. We don't have any word yet on the severity of their injuries but this is what we do know. According to the Associated Press, quoting a spokesperson in Austin, Texas, she named the troopers names, said that he was shot when he responded to the report of three officers being wounded. So rounds of gunfire could be heard at around 5:30 p.m. Central time there in Texas. We're on top of the story, obviously a lot of security on the scene, this developing and unfolding as we speak. We're going to bring you more details as soon as we can. In the meantime, we're going to take a quick break

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Welcome back to CNN LIVE SUNDAY. You are looking at the scene of a shootout and a standoff right now. Three police officers and a state trooper shot, about 25 miles southwest of Dallas in Midlothian, Texas. The conditions of the four we don't know yet. There is a gunman inside an apartment complex. Reporters are heading to the scene. This is an aerial shot of the location. You can see one of the main streets to the right of your screen as police cars have filled that area and I'm sure cordoned off the neighborhood. This has unfolded over the last couple of hours and rounds of gunfire could be heard out there at about 5:30 p.m. local time. We are getting these pictures from our affiliate KBFW and as soon as we have -- a-ha, we got the reporter on the scene. Rebecca Aguilar on the scene right now. Rebecca what can you tell us about what happened?

REBECCA AGUILAR, KBFW: We do not want to give out any tactical movements out here but again a major shootout. Everyone was shooting into that apartment complex. Apparently someone is in that apartment, not this building right here in front of me where you see this blue police S.W.A.T. van. It is the two-story building right behind, someone is in there. According to neighbors, this is a rough, rough apartment complex. A lot of drug dealing goes on inside. We have no idea right now what kind of call the Midlothian police were responding to.

We do know that three officers or four officers were shot. We do not know their conditions at this time. Again, we are waiting for police or any law enforcement officer to tell us what is going on right now, how many suspects they believe are inside, and as you can see, look there. All those police officers, Cedar Hill, Waksahatchie (ph), Ellis County sheriff's department, everyone is out here helping out. A very volatile, chaotic situation and we will keep you updated, get back to you as soon as we find out the latest. Back to you, Richard.

LIN: All right. That was reporter Rebecca Aguilar on tape there on the scene. We're going to be following this through the next hour of CNN LIVE SUNDAY.

Also much more ahead in other ways, we are going to be coming up at 7:00 Eastern, fake photos. We are in a digital world now so how can you tell what is real and what is not? At 8:00, "CNN Presents. Terror 2.0." The next generation of terrorists could be right next door to you and they might just look like you. "CNN PRESENTS" shows you how to spot this new breed.

And at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, "LARRY KING WEEKEND," tonight a look back at Larry's interview with Patsy Ramsey before she died. And then I'm back at 10:00 p.m. with "Snakes on a Plane," blog buzz. Stay right where you are.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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