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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
JonBenet: True Confession?; Home to Justice; DNA Profiling; Ramsey Murder Case; Fateful Encounter; Deadly Leftovers; Mideast Ceasefire; Pro-Polygamy Rally; Polygamy Comes Out; Sister Wives
Aired August 21, 2006 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Karr says he was with JonBenet 10 years ago in her house when she died. He also says he loved her and that he is not innocent. Time and evidence will tell if he is right.
We begin with the latest on the case. Here's CNN's Susan Candiotti.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When murder suspect John Karr arrives in Boulder, this will be his home. But where exactly he'll be put inside the Boulder County Jail has yet to be decided.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mental health would have to evaluate him and medical would have to evaluate him.
CANDIOTTI: One thing is own, he'll be issued a standard orange jump suit worn by all inmates. Thai authorities say Karr requested a shirt and tie to wear so he'd look like a teacher when he headed to the States, apparently a man keenly aware of his image, an image he may have wanted to change.
Karr was undergoing treatment at a clinic in Thailand to remove facial hair. The "DenverPost" quotes his doctor as saying, "The reason he wanted to do hair removal was because he wanted to do a sex change." CNN has not yet confirmed Karr's intent at the clinic.
Did Karr question his sexuality? Colorado Journalism Professor Michael Tracy claims Karr once told him his mother tended to raise him as a girl, according to one newspaper account. And e-mails between the two men published in the "Rocky Mountain News," Karr responded "I will not discuss my sexuality as if it is a psychological disorder. If you would like to learn something about my sexuality on an intellectual, nonjudgmental way, I would love to share." Tracy refused to discuss the e-mails in an appearance Monday night on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MARK KARR, SUSPECT IN JONBENET RAMSEY MURDER: I love JonBenet and she died accidentally.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: Before Karr stunned the world with his claim, he was with JonBenet Ramsey when she died, he was hop scotching the world as a teacher of young children, not only in Thailand, but in a remote, poor rural area of Honduras.
In 2004, one school found him on the Internet, and took him on as a volunteer. He lasted only three weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): He was very difficult, she says. He didn't like the school rules. He was a problem, and that's why we decided to fire him.
CANDIOTTI: From there, Karr found work teaching second graders for eight months. A loaner on his own time, but the school's director called him strict and said he helped the children a great deal.
Why Karr left Honduras is unclear. His resume boasts of teaching and caring for children in Costa Rica and Germany. At the time he was on the run from the law, skipping out a court appearance on a misdemeanor child pornography case in 2001.
What he never ran away from, say those who knew him was his unexplained obsession with JonBenet Ramsey's murder.
But what do police know that led to his arrest? Was it in part what a U.S. law enforcement official told CNN, that he knew specific details about the little girl's body, known only to the medical examiner and investigators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope they've got evidence. I hope they've got something more than this guy who's obviously a wing nut, sitting, you know, in a Thai press conference saying I was with her when she died.
CANDIOTTI: What evidence the Boulder D.A. has remains for now a closely guarded secret.
CANDIOTTI (on camera): And it's possible at that first court appearance that the arrest warrant might be unsealed. However, that would be good, because it would give us information about what led to his arrest in Thailand.
Nevertheless, the district attorney here might decide to keep that under wraps. That wouldn't surprise court watchers here.
Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Susan, thanks.
John and Patsy Ramsey lived for years under a cloud of suspicion from the authorities and the media. Lin Wood is the lawyer who's represented the Ramseys since 1999. He is still the family attorney. And earlier tonight he spoke to CNN's Larry King in his first televised interview since Karr's arrest. Here's Lin Wood in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIN WOOD, RAMSEY FAMILY ATTORNEY: John Ramsey wants what Mary Lacy, the district attorney in Boulder wants, what I think many millions of Americans want. He wants the person who brutally murdered his daughter to be brought to justice. He does not know whether Mr. Karr is guilty of that crime. He does not know the evidence upon which the district attorney is relying on making the arrest of Mr. Karr.
I think his reaction can be summed up as being one of hope. John wants the public to be patient, not to rush to judgment and not to engage in the type of speculation and rumor and gossip and hearsay against this man that, unfortunately, people engaged in with respect to him and his wife and tragically, even at times his son.
John Ramsey and I both have said that we give this man the presumption of innocence. He's entitled to it. Sadly for too many years it wasn't given to my clients, it wasn't given to John Ramsey.
But what I saw on the cameras with respect to Mr. Karr certainly would have been a tragedy of justice, had it occurred in the United States of America. We don't parade people in front of cameras. And I think it's sad about what happened to this man, even though, even though he is in some fashion apparently linked through some information to the JonBenet Ramsey case. It still should not be done even to him.
The goal here has got to be to remain focused on finding the killer of this child. We know it was not John or Patsy Ramsey or their son, Burke. We know that it was an intruder. If not Mr. Karr, it doesn't mean it was the Ramseys. It simply means that the investigation in the search for this brutal child killer must continue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, John Karr himself has said a lot already, but this case will not simply rest on his words. DNA evidence is going to play a major role in determining whether Karr is, in fact the killer of JonBenet.
CNN's Randi Kaye takes a look.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A spot of blood found on JonBenet Ramsey's underwear and evidence from under her fingernails. They are the makings of a DNA profile that for 10 years has been labeled John Doe. But investigators hope to learn soon whether John Doe will be renamed John Karr.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, PH.D., JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: The case is closed. The game is over. KAYE: Professor Lawrence Kobilinsky is a forensic scientist at John Jay College. He says DNA is so reliable that if Karr's profile matches, there is only a one in greater than 1 trillion chance that someone other than Karr committed the crime.
(On camera): Think of DNA as your own personal bar code. Every cell in our body contains a copy of our own DNA. Only identical twins have the same genetic code.
(Voice-over): To determine a match, scientists first look for a sample of DNA on fabric. This demonstration shows how ultraviolet light highlights it.
KOBILINSKY: This may very well be semen. Semen is known to fluoresce when it's in the dried state.
KAYE: That DNA is then cut from the fabric so the extraction can begin.
KOBILINSKY: We would add the specimen of interest to a tube, containing this kelex (ph) resin.
KAYE: The resin extracts and isolates the DNA. When the sample is heated up in this shaking water bath, Professor Kobilinsky gets a printout of how many nanograms of DNA he has.
KOBILINSKY: A nanogram is a billionth of a gram of DNA. It's a very tiny amount of DNA. You really can't see it with the naked eye.
KAYE (on camera): Tiny but key.
KOBILINSKY: Tiny but key
KAYE (voice-over): Next, something called a thermal cycler is able to multiply the sample.
KOBILINSKY: Literally making billions of copies by running 30 cycles of temperature changes.
KAYE: And then finally answers from this genetic analyzer.
KOBILINSKY: There is a very thin capillary here and the samples are obtained from vials in this box. They're sucked into this needle, travel through the capillary, are detected with a special camera, a laser beam hits the specimens and the software does the rest.
KAYE (on camera): And then you get a snapshot basically of the profile.
KAYE: Sends it to the computer.
KAYE: And then you can see what the profile actually looks like. And if they match, case is over.
KOBILINSKY: Then case is closed.
KAYE (voice-over): This is what a profile looks like on paper. If the profiles are identical, the DNA is a match.
Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
COOPER: Well, the federal government maintains a DNA database that can be a critical tool in solving crimes. It's also massive. Here's the raw data on it.
As of June, the database contained the DNA profiles of 3.3 million convicted criminals. It also held more than 140,000 profiles of DNA collected at crime scenes. Apparently the DNA taken back in -- retested in 2003 was put against that database, at which time was much smaller, and no matches came up.
Trip Demuth knows this case inside and out. He was a deputy district attorney for Boulder during the Ramsey investigation. He also ran against Mary Lacy for the Boulder County D.A. in 2000. Trip Demuth joins me now from Boulder.
Trip, thanks for being on the program.
LAURENCE "TRIP" DEMUTH III, FORMER DEPUTY D.A., BOULDER COUNTY: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Is DNA going to make or break this case? I mean, essentially, the DNA that was found on JonBenet's underwear?
DEMUTH: You know, I think the DNA is crucial in this case. And in addition to the question as to whether or not it can be matched to the suspect, I think there's another bigger question as to whether or not it will exclude him, because if it does, the prosecutors have a real problem here.
COOPER: What about the palm print, how big is it? How crucial is it?
DEMUTH: You know, obviously if they've compared the palm print to him and it's a match, then it places him not only in Boulder County at the time of the murder, but it places him inside of that house in close proximity to where the girl was found on the day of the murder, and that's very compelling evidence.
COOPER: If the DNA is not a match to John Karr, is it the case over involving him or is it possible there were other people involved, but he was somehow there?
DEMUTH: Well, you know, I think the question is, if it's not a match is it inconclusive? And if it's not inconclusive, does it exclude him? If it excludes him as the person who contributed that DNA, then you know, they've got a serious problem. COOPER: What do you make of how the district attorney is so far handling this case? I mean, there was this press conference on Friday, really didn't say much. Do you think all they have is his testimony or his comments at this point?
DEMUTH: Well, you know, the only thing that I -- so far the information I know is that the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has not been contacted to do DNA analysis. They've not been contacted to do handwriting comparison or footprint comparison. So the only thing that I haven't heard about that they possibly have is the palm print. And the fact of the matter is, I hope they've got that.
You know, when I was prosecuting cases, these are serious cases, potentially the death penalty involved here and you have to take them seriously, which means you should have all your ducks in a row before you arrest somebody.
COOPER: Is it possible, I mean there's some who say, well, look, they felt he was a flight risk or they felt he was a risk to children, and so that's why they moved. Couldn't they have also brought him back on the charges that he faced and jumped bail on in California?
DEMUTH: Boy, I sure would have looked into it if I was on the case. I would have tried to bring him back to this country with the case out of California. You could do that under the radar screen, and keep it quiet, and continue your investigation without all of the world knowing you're looking at him as a suspect in the Ramsey case.
You know, even if you don't bring him back, there's lots of ways to get DNA samples surreptitiously or just ask for a cheek swab. We've done that before with suspects.
COOPER: When you say surreptitiously, you mean follow him in Bangkok, get him drinking a Coke and get the bottle of Coke?
DEMUTH: It's been done before, it's been successful before. It's certainly something I think they should have done before moving in this case.
COOPER: What happens to him now? Assuming he doesn't fight extradition to Colorado, once he arrives in Colorado, what happens to him?
DEMUTH: Well, he'll show up here and within 48 hours, he has to have a first appearance, which is a bond hearing. And then within a couple days after that, he should have a return date or an advisement date when they will file charges on him, unless the district attorney and the defense attorney that's representing him at that time agree to extend that filing of charges date, which they could very easily do.
COOPER: I think a couple days ago you were quoted saying that you were cautiously optimistic about this. Does that still hold true?
DEMUTH: You know, initially I was cautiously optimistic. As I have heard more and more, and I've heard that they haven't done any of the DNA testing through the Colorado Bureau of Investigation or the footprint or for the handwriting comparisons, we hear the alibi information, we also hear that there hasn't been any investigation in gathering up his previous handwriting samples, I become more and more concerned that they didn't do a thorough investigation before jumping the gun on this case.
But at the same time, if they have a palm print comparison to this guy, then my blood pressure goes down and I feel a lot better about the case.
COOPER: Do you think we're going to learn that this coming week? I mean, there's a chance, you know, that the evidence is not going to come out in this court proceeding.
DEMUTH: Well, it's not going to come out in this original court proceeding. I'm very hopeful that they will release the arrest affidavit as soon as he's back in Boulder County, Colorado.
If they don't do that, then I'm hopeful at least at the preliminary hearing, which should be about a month away, we will hear what evidence they've relied on to bring him back to this country.
COOPER: All right. Trip Demuth, appreciate you joining us for your expertise, thanks.
DEMUTH: You bet.
Straight ahead, the French connection that ended with John Karr under arrest. A few years back, Karr was in Paris and so was a sports writer. He spoke to Karr. He never forgot what the suspect told him about JonBenet. My interview with that man coming up.
And it may be the first of its kind, a demonstration for polygamists by the children of polygamists who say there's nothing wrong with having many mothers and just one dad.
That and the latest from the Middle East, when 360 continues.
COOPER: Well we may never have heard of John Karr if it weren't for my next guest. Michael Sandrock is a journalist from Colorado who was in Paris a few years ago, and as fate would have it, struck up a conversation with a man obsessed with JonBenet Ramsey. That man was John Karr. I spoke to Michael Sandrock earlier.
COOPER: So, Michael, you met Karr in Paris in 2002. What was your impression of him?
MICHAEL SANDROCK, "DAILY CAMERA" COLUMNIST: My first impression, Anderson, was that he was just a normal guy, he was just like one of these backpackers traveling through Europe, just like me and just like hundreds and thousands of other Americans.
COOPER: Does he look like he does now? Because, I mean, you see these pictures of him now, and maybe it's just sort of the knowledge of what he's accused of, but in pictures, you know, he sort of comes off looking, you know, a lot of people said creepy or odd. He didn't seem that way to you back then?
SANDROCK: No, not at all. It was just the opposite, in fact. He was very normal, in fact of the group of young people hanging around in front of this bookstore he was probably the most normal of them all. It wasn't until we got into the Ramsey case that things took a different turn.
COOPER: And how did that come up?
SANDROCK: Well, we just were sitting around in front of the bookstore, right along (UNINTELLIGIBLE) across from Notre Dame at the Shakespeare & Company bookstore. He just asked, hey, where are you from, where you from, what do you do? And I said I'm from Boulder and I'm a journalist in Boulder. And he said, oh, do you work for the "Daily Camera?" And I was a little bit surprised. I said, yes, I work for the "Daily Camera." I'm a sports writer there. And the conversation continued. And I said I'm a runner and I was going over to Switzerland to run some races. And I said I run in Boulder. And he said, oh, do you run in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), yes I run in Chitaukwa (ph) Park. I was surprised he knew where that was. And then he said later on that oh, that's over by the Ramseys' house.
So that's why I had the impression that he had been in Boulder.
COOPER: And in fact you're the one who then got him in contact with Professor Tracy. How did that happen?
SANDROCK: Well, we started talking, and when we were a bunch of people talking together, it was just regular conversations and it was when we were alone that the conversation, he would hone in on the Ramsey case. And at first it was just kind of on the surface, talking about generals, generalities of the case.
Then when he started to get about the specifics of the murder, how the girl died and how she suffered, I got real uncomfortable. And then he asked me a specific question about the, one of Tracy's documentaries. I said that I hadn't seen it, but that I had had a beer with him the Friday before. He got excited. He wanted to know if I thought that Professor Tracy would correspond with him. I said, hey, I don't know.
The conversation continued. He got into some specifics and I could tell he had this really kind of dark side to him, Anderson. There's kind of a dark secret. And I really had the feeling that he needed to unload because when we talked, he sort of led me along on a path. He would ask me questions about the case and I would answer him. And he said, well what about this, and he was drawing me to a certain conclusion. And it got to be a point where it was just really uncomfortable. And then after that, I still saw him a few times, and I kept the conversations more on the surface.
When I got back to Boulder, I had an e-mail (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a couple e-mails. In one of them he said, do you think Professor Tracy would correspond with me. I saw Professor Tracy the following Friday at a local pub where he hangs out every Friday. I told him about Mr. Karr. I didn't know his name, of course. I only knew his first name. And I said, hey, the guy's really pretty fanatic, pretty obsessive. Do you want to correspond with him? Professor Tracy said sure. Forwarded John's e-mail to Tracy and that's the last I heard from him.
COOPER: And that was a crucial link apparently. Hey, Michael, it's a fascinating story and just a strange encounter and we appreciate you talking about it. Thank you.
SANDROCK: OK, thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Still to come tonight, a deadly legacy of the war in Lebanon. Hundreds of unexploded bombs waiting for unlucky people, children to stumble across them. The latest also on the cease-fire and how it's holding up.
And later, no longer just hiding in plain sight. A massive rally for polygamy, ahead on 360.
COOPER: New challenges today to the shaky cease-fire in Lebanon. France now backing away from sending much more than a token peacekeeping force, in part out of concern that the cease-fire resolution, a resolution that France helped negotiate, is vague on the mission.
Israelis are balking at having countries on the force that don't have diplomatic relations with Israel. And in the meantime, on the ground, people, many of them children are still dying, being killed and maimed by the parts and pieces of modern warfare. Deadly long after the fighting ends.
Here's CNN's Jim Clancy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I want my mother.
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 12-year-old Signa Mary (ph) is the face of pain, a victim of an unexploded cluster bomblet.
Her cousin, 10-year-old Hassan, lies in a bed next to her. As a monitor tracks his heartbeat, Hassan remembers the gruesome details of almost being killed.
HASSAN THAHIYE, BOMBING VICTIM (through translator): It was her and my cousin and Signa (ph) picked up the bomb. It was shaped like a ball. There was an explosion. My insides fell out. I held them and I started running and screaming.
CLANCY: For a time doctors weren't sure they would survive, but both have stabilized. They're the lucky ones. Outside the hospital room, a nurse tells us, this is the new phase of the war.
(On camera): Inside the homes and gardens across south Lebanon, there are troops on the front lines in this phase of the war. They are the unexploded ordinance teams who search out and destroy the bomblets that are scattered in their tens of thousands across this country.
(Voice-over): This is the only way to get rid of those bomblets. Before the blasts, some were taped to secure the triggers, but others had already armed themselves and couldn't be touched.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to check everywhere. OK. One is here.
CLANCY: Frederick Grah (ph) is with the Mine Advisory Group. They're working with the U.N. and the Lebanese. Time and time again, Frederick will check to see if a cluster bomblet has armed or not.
JIHAD SAMHAT, MINE ADVISORY GROUP: OK, we have the second one to do. It spread everywhere. On the roofs, we have to check the roof to see if there is something up. OK, it is good for here.
CLANCY: Anxious villagers south of Tyre have reported hundreds of sightings. They're welcoming Frederick and his team with Arabic coffee, but there isn't time. Cluster bombs have smashed through windows and now lie inside homes. Some of their deadly cargo may be underneath or anywhere up to a kilometer away.
We keep warning the children, says an exacerbated mother. We keep telling them. Her children have been gathering up metal to sell. Including the shell of this cluster bomb.
Cluster bomblets are meant to explode when they hit the ground, but there's always about a 10 percent failure rate. Because these are so old, they may have a failure rate of around 40 percent.
But those are cold, hard numbers, and this is real pain. Hassan and Signa (ph) will be weeks in the hospital. For others, there will be no going home at all.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Tyre, Lebanon.
COOPER: Well, as for what is happening right now with the cease- fire, it's a lesson of history. Bad cease-fires have a way of leading to new wars. So the question is, is this a bad cease-fire and if so, what should be done to fix it?
Joining us in Washington is Lee Feinstein of the Council on Foreign Relations.
Lee, thanks for being with us. I read this blog that you wrote on TPMCafe, which is a political Web site. And you said in part, "It is as if France and the United States are deliberately trying to undermine any chance of success for the peacekeeping deal they brokered on southern Lebanon."
Pretty strong words. What do you mean by it?
LEE FEINSTEIN, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: The perils of the blogosphere. I guess what I mean by it is that some of the problems that we are seeing now were foreseeable both by France and the United States, which took the lead in negotiating the security council resolution. And yet there was not adequate preparation for the time, for implementation after the security council resolution was approved.
This resolution was approved 10 days ago. And it was under negotiation for several weeks. And the United States and France should have been ling up troops to go into Lebanon as soon as possible after the resolution was passed.
COOPER: Because it is shocking. You know the resolution is calling for 15,000 troops. There was talk of that number. France is now only offering up 200 troops. That doesn't even seem realistic.
FEINSTEIN: Yes, what happened is, you know, Jacques Chirac, the president of France, was personally involved in the negotiations on this resolution, and he made a number of decisions in the negotiations, that actually weakened the resolution. And the United States, unfortunately, did not correct them. And so he operated on the assumption, which everybody else bought, that France would be the backbone of this new force, and when he got home and talked to his ministry of defense, they said forget it.
COOPER: Frankly, it surprised me that France was willing to do that, given -- I mean, we all focus of course on the more than 200 U.S. service members who were killed when the barracks blew up, the Marine barracks and also, of course, the bombing of the embassy. France also lost a number of troops in that. It had surprised me initially that they would be willing to send troops back in. I guess now to some extent they're not.
What needs to happen now, though, I mean to make this thing anything but a failure?
FEINSTEIN: Well, what needs to happen, I guess, first of all, there needs to be clarity about the rules of engagement. The peacekeepers who are going into the area need to have the authority to shoot to protect themselves.
And there needs to be clarity about what the mission is. President Bush today stepped back from the idea of disarming Hezbollah, except as a long-term proposition. We need clarity about this.
Also, you know, a force in this kind of a setting can only be successful if it's led by a militarily capable nation, like Italy, or France. The resolution requires that this be led by the United Nations, which isn't really good at these kinds of things. And there needs to be some way to figure that out.
COOPER: A long way to go, no doubt. Lee, appreciate you joining us again. Lee Feinstein, thanks very much.
FEINSTEIN: Sure, my pleasure.
COOPER: Coming up, a strange demonstration to say the least in Utah. Children defending polygamy, the children of polygamist families going public in Utah to show you what prompted them to do it and what will the consequences may be.
Also tonight, meet the newlyweds, a rare up close look at the so- called sister wives and what they really think about having to share a husband, coming up next on 360.
COOPER: An extraordinary public display by people who normally stay out of the lime light because what they believe is against the law. The members of polygamist families, and they took to the streets this weekend to defend their beliefs.
Here's CNN's Gary Tuchman.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (VOICE-OVER): In Salt Lake City, where the 12.3 million-member Mormon church is based, a first of its kind demonstration takes place.
UNIDENTIFIED RALLIERS: We want freedom, we want choice.
TUCHMAN: The Mormon church disavowed polygamy generations ago, but these children who call themselves fundamentalist Mormons marched on the Utah streets, defending their polygamist parents and speaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, my name is Mary. I'm the 14th child in a large family and I have several moms.
TUCHMAN: Polygamy is a felony in Utah and because arrests have happened in the past, polygamist families generally stay very low profile and certainly don't hold rallies with children.
But with much publicity about polygamy lately, they are now.
Amanda is 14.
AMANDA, CHILD FROM POLYGAMIST FAMILY: I've been made fun of. My religion has been made fun of. And I've been excluded because of your prejudice. If you don't like to be judged, why is it so easy to judge me?
TUCHMAN: Jessica is 17.
JESSICA, CHILD OF POLYGAMIST FAMILY: We're not brainwashed, mistreated, neglected, malnourished, illiterate, defective or dysfunctional.
TUCHMAN: About 250 children and parents showed up outside a Salt Lake City governmental building.
(On camera): When you get married, are there any of you who don't want to be in plural marriage families?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all want to.
TUCHMAN: You want to? You all want to be with a number of wives and one husband?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, if we have the opportunity to, of course.
TUCHMAN: I mean, don't you want a husband to yourself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I mean, who wants the husband to cook for every night by yourself? I mean, there's laundry all the time, iron his clothing all the time. Let somebody else do it for us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, have some help.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): At the same time as this rally, right down the street at the world's largest Mormon temple, this new husband and wife had just committed themselves to a monogamous marriage in life. The church telling CNN the rally is a matter for the state of Utah to respond to, but also saying, referring "To these groups as Mormons or Mormon sects is misleading and confusing to the vast majority of audiences who rightfully associate the term 'Mormon' with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."
This man brought his two wives and three of his six children to support the rally.
(On camera): Did you worry about coming here today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think everybody has a certain amount of worry. We know that it's illegal in this state. But we also feel that that's an unconstitutional law because we should be allowed our freedom of religion.
UNIDENTIFIED RALLIERS: We want freedom!
TUCHMAN (voice-over): There were no arrests. As a matter of fact, there were no police to be seen.
Although authorities are anxious to apprehend polygamists accused of crimes involving children, like FBI Fugitive Warren Jeffs, they say for now they will leave ordinary polygamists alone.
None of these protesters are believed to be supporters of Jeffs.
(On camera): The Mormon church renounced polygamy 116 years ago, but the people here pledge to continue denouncing the renouncing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I chose this lifestyle and no amount of money, promises or chocolates will change my mind. Thank you for your time.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Gary Tuchman, CNN, Salt Lake City.
COOPER: Never quite seen a rally like that. The question is really how significant is it? We're going to take a look at the potential impact in just a moment.
Also, polygamists in their own words, what do the women really think about their so-called sister wives? And how is the hunt for Warren Jeffs going? All that ahead on 360.
COOPER: The creepy song stylings of Polygamist Warren Jeffs, one of the FBI's most wanted.
Mike Watkiss, a reporter with CNN affiliate KTVK in Phoenix joins me now with more on the manhunt.
Michael, good to see you. How is it going?
MICHAEL WATKISS, KTVK REPORTER: Well, I think the search for Warren Jeffs continues all over the United States, Anderson. And certainly they are looking for him in Texas, where he has built that big compound. But he's really had a four-year jump on law officers. He's seen this day coming.
When one of his polygamist cronies, a polygamist cop named Rod Holm was thrown in jail about four years ago, that really set everything that we're now seeing in motion. And Warren Jeffs has seen that law officers are going to be coming after him and he's been preparing for this day.
COOPER: One other member of his family, though, has now been put -- is now wanted by the FBI. Is that correct?
WATKISS: Well, several of his brothers have been -- there's a big grand jury. One of the big developments is a grand jury that's operating, of course, in secret here and has been operating for a number of months, and they've hauled a lot of his followers in to testify and when they won't testify they've thrown them in jail. And I know that at least one of his brothers, perhaps two are now incarcerated for basically refusing to answer the questions of this grand jury.
COOPER: What do you make about this demonstration that occurred, I mean all these kids from polygamist families, not necessarily followers of Warren Jeffs, but other polygamist families?
WATKISS: Critical point. Yes, critical point. I think it's wonderful. I think it's really cool that these young people have felt empowered enough to come forward. They are the bottom line part of the American landscape, part of the landscape in Utah and Arizona. They shouldn't be living in the shadows and some communication or dialogue with the outside world is very healthy.
COOPER: How common is it, though? I mean, you know, it's interesting. When I went to the areas around Salt Lake, I mean, in some communities, it's quite easy to see polygamist compounds, which I got to be honest, surprised me.
WATKISS: I grew up in Utah. I have polygamist ancestors. They're everywhere, honeycombed throughout the American southwest. They are everywhere and America, a couple of months ago when Warren Jeffs ended up on the "Ten Most Wanted," woke up to this realization there are polygamists in our midst. Now we're understanding that there are gradations of polygamists.
The kids in that rally, you know, in their Gap jeans and on their cell phones, they're not the problem. The problems are in the dark of night, in the secrecy of the communities like Colorado City, where polygamy has basically been able to metastasize into the cancer that it is.
These are well-documented cases. I have been focusing on polygamists for 30 years, about 10 years on Warren Jeffs and his group. The jury is no longer out for me. I know they abuse women and children. I know that the boys are thrown out. They abuse the welfare system. There's tax fraud. This is what the grand jury is looking at here. Warren Jeffs deserves to be on "America's Most Wanted."
The kids in that package, the kids in that story, they're not the problem. Their families are not the problem. Warren Jeffs and his group are the problem.
COOPER: And he is still out there. By all accounts in the compound in Texas probably.
WATKISS: Best guess, yes he's safest there, it's private land. You and I can drive into Colorado City, as remote as it is. It's a public place, but on that big landlocked island in Texas, he's got all of the security he needs. He's built that sort of ominous apocalyptic-like temple down there. He's set for a siege down there.
And again, he's four years ahead of law officers because he's seen this day coming. Law officers have now caught up to the fact, they're looking for him, but he's braced. He's got compounds in South Dakota, in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) moving to Nevada, so they're scattering to the wind.
COOPER: Michael Watkiss, appreciate you keeping us updated. Thanks, Michael.
We're going to have more on the polygamy movement coming up.
First though, Randi Kaye joins with us a "360 Business Bulletin" -- Randi.
KAYE: Hi there, Anderson. The rally is over on Wall Street. Stocks closed down today for the first time in more than a week as investors worried about rising oil prices in Iran's nuclear program. A weak outlook from home improvement chain Lowe's didn't help either. The Dow fell 36 points to close at 11345, the NASDAQ lost 16 points and the S&P closed down 4.
Now, about that report from Lowe's, second quarter profits at the nation's number two home improvement chain did not meet expectations. Lowe's has also posted a full-year earnings outlook that's short of previous estimates. Lowe's stock fell about 4 percent today.
Technology Company Sandis saw its stock go up after it introduced a new digital music player to go up against Apple's popular iPod Nano. The new version of the Sansa device stores twice as many songs as the Nano, but price its price tag would be just about the same. Sandis is also lowering the prices on its other Sansa models just in time for, that's right, the holiday shopping season.
Oh, it won't be long, Anderson.
COOPER: The holiday shopping season?
KAYE: Can you believe we're talking about that?
COOPER: No, I really can't. I refuse to talk about it. It's too far away.
KAYE: Better get that list ready.
COOPER: No. Randi, thanks.
It is a happy family, just not your typical one perhaps. One husband, two wives, the possibility of a third. What makes polygamists choose to live this way? A rare inside look at a polygamist family. That's coming up.
And we're getting a lot of e-mail about JonBenet Ramsey and her suspected killer. We'll take a look at some of your e-mails to our blog, ahead on 360.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARREN JEFFS, POLYGAMIST: Dear wives, realizing happiness is only being a part and a strength to your husband, get close to him, confide in him, don't let your former family be your total confidence, it should be your new husband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, as Mike Watkiss said, polygamists have flown under the radar for many years. That is changing lately now that Warren Jeffs is on the FBI's most wanted list.
Before the break, we reported on a rally where the children of polygamist relationships defended their right to live the way they want. Here again, CNN's Gary Tuchman visiting a family that also makes no excuses for its unorthodox lifestyle.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He is a married man, but not just any married man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm married twice actually to this beautiful young lady here and to this beautiful young lady here.
TUCHMAN (on camera): And I'm wondering if these beautiful young ladies at any time object to being with another beautiful young lady you consider a wife?
What about you Lisa?
LISA, POLYGAMIST WIFE: Not at all.
TUCHMAN: Never bothers you?
TUCHMAN: What about you, Helen? Never bothers you?
HELEN, POLYGAMIST WIFE: No.
TUCHMAN: There's never a time when I say, I want to you myself?
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Helen was 20 when she married 21-year-old Ariel (ph) 11 years old. Lisa was 18 when she married him two years ago.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Were you happy when Lisa came into the house as a sister wife?
HELEN: Absolutely. Yes.
TUCHMAN: No question about that?
HELEN: Yes. I was on cloud 11 for a long time.
TUCHMAN: That's higher than cloud nine.
TUCHMAN: Would you like to see him take another wife?
TUCHMAN: And another one after that?
ARIEL (ph), POLYGAMIST: Dear God, our eternal father in heaven, we bow or heads before you this evening.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Ariel and his wives call themselves fundamentalist Mormons. He works as a math and science teacher. They have a total of nine children.
Helen has given birth to seven of them. She works as an accountant.
Lisa, who stays at home has given birth to two, including newborn Ruben (ph), who was born prematurely and is just home from the hospital. The oldest of the nine children is only 9 years old.
ARIEL: We are grateful for the Lord, Jesus Christ, and for the Prophet Joseph Smith and the...
TUCHMAN: Husband and wives believe the Mormon church, which was founded by Joseph Smith in 1830 should not have abandoned polygamy.
(On camera): Do you think Joseph Smith would consider you and people who believe like you the true followers?
ARIEL (ph): I think so.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): They are very conservative. With the mercury over 100 degrees here in northern Arizona, everyone is covering their arms and legs. But conservative or not, our discussions got a bit free-wheeling.
(On camera): You would you never be with more than one wife at the same time?
ARIEL (ph): Oh, you mean in the bedroom?
ARIEL (ph): No.
TUCHMAN: I'm just trying not to be so blunt about it.
ARIEL (ph): I wanted to be explicit.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Ariel (ph) and his wives live in the town of Centennial Park. That's less than five minutes from Colorado City, Arizona, where thousands of supporters of FBI Fugitive Warrant Jeffs live.
The people of Centennial Park do not support or follow Jeffs, but they do support the polygamist lifestyle. And because of that, there is great fear here of government prosecution.
(On camera): How worried are you that someday your family could be split up? It's happened in the past. It's been part of your history. How worried are you that authorities will come in here and say, you're a polygamist, you're under arrest?
ARIEL (ph): It's definitely a concern. It's a constant concern. TUCHMAN (voice-over): When they leave their community as a married threesome, they act low profile.
ARIEL (ph): I've tried putting my arm around both of them when I walked into a restaurant recently and they felt uncomfortable so I stopped doing that.
TUCHMAN: The children regard both women as their mothers, no matter which one gave birth to them.
(On camera): So the new baby that Lisa just gave birth to you is your baby, too?
TUCHMAN: And, Lisa, when I say that, is there a twinge in your heart saying, that's my baby. She came out of me.
LISA: No, no, no. No, actually -- no. When I had my first baby, seeing how much Helen loved her just made me love Helen more. It was incredible.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Indeed, the wives love each other, too. And admit they would be delighted with even more love in the home.
HELEN: I would have been happy if he'd married another wife the day I got married. That is what I was hoping for.
TUCHMAN: Ariel (ph), who comes from a family of 16 mothers and about 100 siblings, says he's open to his wives' requests for what they call sister wives.
ARIEL (ph): When they put pressure on me to get another wife, what they really mean is pray about it. So, that's what I'll do. That's what I do when they get too overbearing, I just get down on my knees and ask God to take this away from me.
TUCHMAN: He's open to the concept.
ARIEL (ph): We pray that you'll bless us with your spirit.
TUCHMAN: But Ariel (ph) says God has to give the final OK.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, Centennial Park, Arizona.
COOPER: Well, on the radar tonight, about maybe a ton or so responses on the blog to the arrest and return of John Karr in the JonBenet Ramsey.
Mauro in Olathe, Kansas, writes, "I do not believe this man is the killer. I think he's looking for his 15 minute spotlight."
From Walt in Washington, D.C., "If the DNA matches, he's guilty. If not," he writes, "he's just a nut case." And from Terry in Dumfries, Virginia, "Let's let the system work. Plus, I'm sure there is a lot more to come out that we will be surprised by."
Terry, I think you're right on both accounts.
On the blog, in the headlines and on the radar tonight.
We'll have more of 360 in a moment. Stay with us.
COOPER: Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," how to stop shocking abuse against those who are least able to protect themselves. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she'd come down, she'd get mad and she'd slap me. You know, I'm sick of this, she said. Why don't you just die. Get it over with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Tomorrow we'll hear from an elderly woman who says she suffered so horribly at the hands of her own daughter, she actually wanted to kill herself. A disturbing story that can serve as a lesson to others.
That's tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," with Soledad O'Brien and Miles O'Brien, 6:00 a.m., to 10:00 a.m., right here on CNN.
And "LARRY KING" is coming up next. Two exclusives, John and Patsy Ramsey's attorney, Lin Wood; and the University of Colorado Professor Michael Tracy, who's been e-mailing John Karr for the past four years.
Thanks for watching, and I'll see you again tomorrow.
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