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Nancy Grace
John Mark Karr, suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case, is flown back to the U.S. from Thailand.
Aired August 21, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr back on U.S. soil, Karr now in LA. It was all caviar dreams and champagne wishes on a luxury flight from Thailand -- giant prawns, roast duck, French Evian water and a gourmet bittersweet chocolate cake to top it off, plus Karr treated to a feature film in his cushioned seat. But now, Mr. Karr, it`s down to business! Extradition procedures set for JonBenet`s confessed killer and part-time school teacher. If Karr is not the killer, question: Has the Denver DA forever ruined any chance for a future prosecution? Is this a trial blunder of gigantic scale? Tonight, exclusively -- Karr signed her high school yearbook years ago, unwittingly providing a handwriting sample, now so crucial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Straight out to Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Right now, Karr in LA. Why? And what comes next, Ed Miller?
ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, he`s the guest of the Los Angeles County sheriff`s office, and he is in jail. He`s in a six-by-nine jail cell with a toilet and bars, no window. And that`s where he will remain tonight after that luxury flight that you talked about, those business class tickets. By the way, we priced that out for you because I know you`d want to know. Those one-way tickets are about $3,000 each.
GRACE: Wait! I just choked on that!
MILLER: I knew you would like that, Nancy.
GRACE: Three thousand dollars?
MILLER: Three thousand dollars each. We also...
GRACE: Who paid for that, dare I ask?
MILLER: I`m glad you did ask. The Boulder district attorney`s office decided to pay for Mr. Karr`s ticket. It was their decision to fly him business class. That`s his $3,000 ticket, the investigator`s $3,000 ticket, and then the other three people were forced to also buy business class tickets. That`s another $3,000 each. We`re up to about $15,000 of taxpayer dollar money that was spent to bring him back into this country.
GRACE: Well, Ed Miller, if this is the killer of JonBenet Ramsey, it was worth every penny. But hold on. A couple of quick cross-examination questions, Ed. Giant prawns, shrimp? Yes, no?
MILLER: Yes. Yes. There was some confusion...
GRACE: Uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh! Yes, no?
MILLER: Yes, he did have that.
GRACE: Champagne?
MILLER: Yes. He had...
GRACE: Chocolate cake?
MILLER: ... a glass of champagne before take-off.
GRACE: Chocolate cake?
MILLER: Yes, ma`am. Business class...
GRACE: Pate? Pate?
MILLER: Yes, ma`am. And one beer.
GRACE: All right. You know what? This is way, way off the map! And another thing. No handcuffs?
MILLER: No handcuffs. We have to understand -- this whole thing is so weird. This was not a formal extradition. He was basically brought back as a guest of our government. The way they did this is that they convinced the Thailand government to basically boot him out. And therefore, we brought him back as our guest. He was not arrested on the plane. Therefore, again, he`s our guest, in essence. No handcuffs until...
GRACE: Ed Miller, wait a second!
MILLER: ... he`s on U.S. soil.
GRACE: Stop! Stop! He is nobody`s guest! He`s being brought back on multiple child pornography charges that he had against him in California, and now he`s facing murder one charges in Colorado. He`s nobody`s guest~!
MILLER: Not until he was on U.S. soil, though. That`s why he had no handcuffs. That`s my information.
GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will be housed. He`ll be in a single cell in isolation, and he will have a -- whenever he moves, there will be deputies with him. He will be separated out from the general population. He will be safe and secure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What strikes me still today is the two theories -- the intruder theory and the inside theory. There`s evidence in this case to support both. And whoever gets charged in this case is going to have to -- their attorneys are going to try and say it`s the other one. You know, if it`s an intruder, they`re going to put the blame on the Ramseys. If it`s the Ramseys, they`re going to put the blame on the intruder. So it`s always been a very, very difficult case in that respect because the evidence is so inconclusive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And right now, all we have to suggest that Karr is guilty in the murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey is his own word. Why should we believe him?
Now, you`ve all heard of handwriting analysis. Joining us tonight is a veteran handwriting comparison expert. His name, Don Lehew. And he believes Karr did, in fact, write the ransom note. Mr. Lehew, thank you for being with us.
DON LEHEW, HANDWRITING EXPERT: Glad to be here.
GRACE: Sir, you have taken a look at not only the ransom note -- how many pages was that thing? I`ve got it right here. Let`s see -- one, two, three. And then there was the practice ransom note. That should give the police pretty good fodder to make a handwriting comparison. You`ve looked at that and his current known handwriting. What do you think?
LEHEW: I looked at that. I looked at a little of his known handwriting, and I also looked at handwriting from back when he was -- in his high school yearbook.
GRACE: And what did you see?
LEHEW: I found significant comparison documents that were adequate to convince me that he is the one that wrote the ransom note.
GRACE: Well, what really got me -- and Elizabeth, when you can, pull this up for the viewers. At first, I thought it was all bogus, there`s no way this guy was even remotely involved except in his own dreams. But if you take a look at his "d" specifically, the "a" specifically, with the umbrella over it, I -- there you go. Thanks, Liz. Take a look at that. To find the umbrella over the "a" is not -- you don`t often find that. And the "d" -- I don`t know if we have the "d," but the "d" is like an upside- down candy cane. It`s a very unusual marking, Don.
LEHEW: That`s true.
GRACE: And what do you make of it?
LEHEW: Well, that`s part of what we look at to make the comparison to make the match on the handwriting. The lower case "l`s" are a little bit strange, to say the least. They`re not the typical lower case "l." And certainly, the "a" and the "d" are out of character from what we learned in school, typically. The "w" is a good match. And the lower case "t" has got a tail that comes off of the -- off and to the right in both the known and the questioned document.
GRACE: Don, when you make a handwriting comparison, how many similarities do you look for?
LEHEW: Well, in this case as many as I could find.
GRACE: OK, let me rephrase it. I`m a JD, not a DDS. When you say it`s a match, how many matches do you have? How many points of match do you have?
LEHEW: OK. You`ve actually asked two questions, Nancy. In this case, I had 13 letters that matched significantly. Typically, in a forgery, you`re looking for differences, whereas in this case, I was looking for similarities.
GRACE: How many similarities does it take before you will deem it a match?
LEHEW: I don`t have a specific number. It`s kind of like fingerprints. They don`t have a specific number, and neither do we. But I like to get at least 10 or better. And once I`ve got 10 or better, I`m pretty convinced.
GRACE: Let`s go out to CNN correspondent Dan Simon. He is standing by right now in LA, at the jail. Welcome, Dan. Thank you for being with us.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You bet. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Tell me about the jail and what`s in store for Mr. Karr tomorrow morning.
SIMON: Well, Nancy, that`s the Twin Towers facility behind me. That`s where Mr. Karr has been taken. As you know, this whole downtown complex, this jail complex, has been a place that has been home to a lot of celebrities here in Los Angeles, including Robert Blake and O.J. Simpson. Mr. Karr is in a small cell, a six-by-nine cell. You know, he`s getting the standard jail fare, like everybody else. Today it was bologna sandwiches. He was given his blue uniform. His cell consists, basically, of a sink and a toilet.
Now, in terms of what`s going to happen tomorrow, there`s going to be an extradition hearing. And Nancy, you know about this much better than I do, but we`re told this is going to be very routine. We`re told that he`s actually expected to waive extradition, so this should only take a couple of minutes. It`s going to be televised. They`re allowing cameras in the courtroom. If, in fact, he waives extradition, he could be on his way to Boulder as early as tomorrow afternoon, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, it`s "Trial 101." It is called extradition. And what that means is simply an agreement between two governors of two different states that they will extradite one suspected felon to another state, when needed.
Joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Ash Joshi. Explain the extradition process. It`s very brief. It`s very simple. That`s why it`s normally waived, Ash.
ASH JOSHI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Correct. The only issue for extradition, Nancy, is whether he is, in fact, the person who they`re looking for and whether these are legitimate charges. The extradition does not take into account whether, in fact, he`s guilty of this or not, just that he`s the person that they`re interested in. And obviously, he is. And thankfully, he`s not contesting it, and we can save a few weeks or a few months in that process.
GRACE: Well, actually, Ash, very often, there are only two or three, maximum four questions asked at an extradition hearing. You bring the defendant in from the jail. You ask them -- you show the judge the governor`s petition from the other state. In this case, it would be from Colorado to Schwarzenegger. It`s signed by the governor, probably rubber- stamped, but it`s still signed by the governor. And you ask the defendant this -- Are you, John Mark Karr? Are you the John Mark Karr wanted on these charges? And do you waive extradition? It`s an issue of identity. They`re not going to try the case there in California.
JOSHI: That`s absolutely correct. That`s all it is. Is he the person that everybody`s been talking about? And again, he`s saving everybody some time by at least admitting, Yes, I`m the person, let`s go ahead with this.
GRACE: Take a listen to what your typical guy on the street thinks about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little bit of a shock. I`ve been following it in the Bangkok press. So you know, it`s a little bit of the celebrity factor. But you know, part of me`s a little bit disgusted, and another part of me`s a little bit, you know, kind of wanting to presume innocence, like, you know, the American way. And part of me is a little bit -- I don`t know, a little bit wanting to shy away from the whole thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t -- I don`t feel anything. I mean, obviously, he`s just as human as we all are. We all (INAUDIBLE) mistakes. But I do feel that being that it is the United States of America and this - - I wouldn`t blame the United States of America, but I do blame Thai Airways for allowing it to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We`re going out to a security analyst with impeccable credentials. Mike Brooks is joining us tonight. Mike, thank you for being with us. Mike, what do you make of the mode of transportation? I`m very concerned about no handcuffs. You know, I`m not even going to bother talking about the champagne, the beer, the French Evian water, the pate, the prawns, and the Martha Stewart bittersweet chocolate cake, all right? Not going to touch it. Don`t care. Sickening, yes. A crime, no. I want to talk about the way he was transported.
MIKE BROOKS, SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Nancy, I would be concerned if he had some alcohol on board. You know, they said, no, he`s not under arrest. But was he free to leave? Absolutely not. Now, he was...
GRACE: And that is the legal definition of "in custody."
BROOKS: Thank you.
GRACE: If you`re even in the back of a squad car or if you`re being held in a detention room or in a conference room with police there and you can`t leave, you are technically in custody, under arrest. How do you know that this guy is not going to wreak havoc at 35,000 feet above the earth?
BROOKS: Absolutely. I was with Delta Airlines at the start-up of their "air rage" program, and most of the incidents started because of alcohol. The other thing, Nancy -- he had a tie on. You know, if he`s -- why let him have a tie on? He didn`t have any cuffs. Now, the cuffs apparently were -- they weren`t going to allow them to use cuffs because the Thai airline said, in case of an emergency, in case of an evacuation, they didn`t want him to have cuffs on. There some airlines do say that, but if I -- you know, I would have cuffs on...
GRACE: Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. JonBenet is six feet under, and we`re worried that something might happen to him in the event of a freak accident?
BROOKS: Well, that was the rules the Thai airlines made up.
GRACE: Right.
BROOKS: I don`t necessarily agree with them, but that`s the rules that they said. Now, the other thing -- no tie. Now, every time he went to the bathroom, he wasn`t -- you know, if he was free to go, why did the immigration and customs enforcement agent put a foot in the door so he couldn`t close the door and pull the curtain? So again, you know, my point was exactly what you made, Nancy. This guy was not free to go. He`s in custody. It`s a custodial arrest.
GRACE: Custodial arrest. Same thing. No handcuffs. And the significance of the tie, Mike -- you keep saying that you`ve got a problem with the tie. I know where you`re headed. Explain to the viewers why that is so significant.
BROOKS: Well, number one, it can be used as -- against the immigration and customs enforcement agents. He could take it off and burst through there. Yes, he`s little, the other guys are pretty big, but I`ve seen little guys put up really strong fights. The other thing is, he goes in, there`s a possibility he could attempt suicide. I have heard of suicides happening on board aircraft, even in the lavatory. Now, the other thing...
GRACE: Why did they do it, Mike? Why did they give him silk stocking treatment? Why?
BROOKS: Well, you know, the meals and those kind of things, Nancy, I don`t have a problem with because...
GRACE: Well, I`ve got a problem with it!
BROOKS: What are you going to do, give him Meals Ready to Eat? No. Just let him eat what`s there.
GRACE: But what about this bogus theory that it was all to try to get him to talk? If that were the case, why don`t we get other suspects drunk while they`re in custody and see what they`ll say?
BROOKS: If that was the case, why not put him on a Gulfstream or a Learjet, bring him back on a private jet, like the government does when they have suspected terrorists? But the other thing, they gave him a real metal knife. I don`t agree with that, either. You know, we don`t see that now. But you know, why give him any kind of weapons at all? Yes, you had a customs and immigration enforcement agent there with him. You had an investigator from the DA`s office. But they should not have allowed him to have any alcohol whatsoever.
GRACE: I`ve got another problem. To Dr. Holly Phillips, internist, joining us. Could you put up that graph from the autopsy report? What concerns me is something this guy said, all right? He stated that he drugged and raped this little girl. Now, anybody that wants to look can see what this says about her hymen. "The hymen is represented by a rim of tissue extending clockwise between the 2:00 and 10:00 o`clock position."
Now, Dr. Phillips, she still had a hymen. If this guy had raped her, how could that be?
HOLLY PHILLIPS, M.D., INTERNIST: Well, you know, it`s a difficult question, Nancy. I think, though, we have to remember that sexual assault is not necessarily traditional intercourse, as we think of it. He could have certainly molested her in other ways without disrupting the body in the way we`re thinking of.
GRACE: But he said rape. He said rape! And if you put that autopsy back up again, we also see that there is no anal molestation. This guy said drugged and raped! And according to this autopsy report, that simply is not true, making him a liar, making him a very expensive liar to the tune of over $3,000, if you want to believe the autopsy report!
PHILLIPS: Sure. I just think it`s important, though, that we remember there are different forms of sexual assault. And what he`s thinking of may be that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If John Karr turns out to be the killer, I would very much like to know where he was and what he was doing during the days and hours immediately following the crime. I would very much like to know whether the attitude of the detectives at the time, focusing exclusively on the parents, enabled them to -- or forced them to miss an opportunity to catch this guy at a time when it could have solved the case very quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. John Karr on U.S. soil, waiting for an extradition hearing tomorrow morning, which we predict will take him from a California jail cell to a Colorado jail cell and possible charges, murder one, in the brutal death of a 6-year-old beauty queen, JonBenet Ramsey.
Now, in just a moment, I`m going to show you up close and personal a writing comparison down to the letter between his writing and that ransom note. It`s incredible.
But first, out to Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent standing by in Boulder, Colorado. welcome, Susan. If he waives extradition, how soon will he put his toe on Colorado soil?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As long as it takes to put him on a plane and get him here. And of course, Nancy, the jail`s ready for him. It`s not clear, not even do they know, exactly what part of the jail he will go. For example, they`ve got to do an intake research, you know, study on him. They have to interview him. Authorities have to decide, Does he go where mental cases are held? Will he be put where people are giving -- prisoners are giving them trouble, or will he be in the general population? They`ll conduct interviews and then decide what kind of -- what part of the jail to put him. But you know, anything goes from there, but they are certainly ready for him. Preparations have been made. And then, of course, there`s that first court appearance, which also might not take a very long time.
GRACE: Well, Susan, after the extradition papers are going -- they`re going to be signed tomorrow. Whether he waives it or contests, it they`re going to be signed in the next 72 hours, and he`s going to head to Colorado. Once he gets there, what are the requirements for his first court appearance?
CANDIOTTI: Well, of course, he has the right to have someone represent him. So whether that`s a public defender or whether someone else has contacted him between times, we don`t know that yet. Public defender`s office not speaking with us about it. We do know, apparently, at this time, that no camera will be allowed in the courtroom, as there will be in California tomorrow morning. So we`ll be in there to report on exactly what is happening. But they`re ready to receive him...
GRACE: Susan, what can you tell us about Karr pursuing a sex change operation? And in fact, is it true that he had already had the hair on his face, chin and neck lasered off?
CANDIOTTI: Well, CNN has confirmed with a clinic in Thailand that he was undergoing treatment to have facial hair removed. "The Denver Post" here is reporting at that same clinic that he had already begun to explore and meet with doctors to discuss a sex change operation. CNN still working to confirm that with the doctor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s part of the problem with the whole process, is the skepticism of everybody. I think we need to (INAUDIBLE) let the district attorney`s office do their job, and when they cross all the T`s, dot the I`s, you`ll have an answer instead of a lot of speculation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As of tonight, there is no confirmation that John Karr was ever in Colorado. According to his ex-wife, he was with her that Christmas.
Here in the studio with me, in an exclusive interview tonight, the young lady who went to high school with Karr, whose yearbook, her annual, he signed, unwittingly giving a writing sample. Joining us tonight, Teresa Alligood. She went to high school with John Mark Karr. He signed her yearbook "SBTC," meaning what?
TERESA ALLIGOOD, KARR SIGNED H.S. YEARBOOK: My opinion? "Shall be the conqueror."
GRACE: But had he ever said that? Let`s see the high school pictures. Let`s get a look at Karr in high school. There we go. There`s the signatures right there. There he is. Is this the Karr that you recall?
ALLIGOOD: Yes. Yes, it is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: We have, in a sense, turned the justice process over to the media. People are tried on the 6:00 news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope they find the person who did this, and I hope that, if this person did it, that this is the truth. Is this person being honest? And is he giving the true story?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There are holes in his story big enough to open the barn door. Is it possible that this guy is telling the truth? We`ve flown him over, footing the bill for over $3,000 from Thailand. He`s in a California courtroom tomorrow morning for an extradition hearing that paves the way for him to return to Colorado if, in fact, he`s ever been there before.
Take a look at him. Is this the guy that snuck into the home of 6- year-old JonBenet Ramsey, a local beauty queen, at Christmastime? Did he elude both of her parents, get her out of her bedroom, take her to the kitchen, feed her pineapple, lounge around, write a multi-page ransom note after a practice ransom note, then take her down to the basement, molest her, and murder her, and make out without ever being apprehended? Could it be, or is it just too fantastical?
Joining us right now, Hillah Mendez, a veteran trial lawyer. Hillah, if this is not the right guy, has the Denver prosecutor practically speaking forever ruined the chances of trying the real killer, if that killer is still alive?
HILLAH MENDEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, no, Nancy, I don`t think so at all. I think that this D.A.`s office would be completely remiss if they did not follow this lead that they had. And we would be sitting here on TV criticizing every single thing that they did.
So just because you follow a lead doesn`t necessarily forever bar you from having a successful prosecution against somebody else. It depends on really what the nature and the evidence is going to be either against Mr. Karr or, if he`s not the suspect, hopefully eventually somebody we get, because any D.A.`s office wants to know that they`re not only going to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, but that any conviction will then be upheld on any type of an appeal that will come later on after that conviction`s obtained.
GRACE: To Ash Joshi, defense attorney, as well, Ash, I`ve got a problem with arresting the wrong person, OK? It`s all right to investigate them, follow your leads, investigate them until the cows come home, but when you make an arrest and do a catch and release, when you finally get the right killer, how can you stand in front of the jury and not face the defense argument, "Oh, you think my guy did it? Well, last year they thought this guy did it. And five years ago, they thought that guy did it. They arrested this one, then this one. Now it`s my guy?"
What is it, like spin the bottle? If this is not the right guy, this is a mistake in gigantic proportion.
JOSHI: You know, Nancy, it is difficult because if he`s not the right person, you`re exactly right, the defense attorneys are going to scream up and down, "You`ve already arrested somebody. You flew him back from Thailand. You spent all the money to do all that."
But on the other hand, Nancy, they have to get his DNA, and we can`t lose sight of that fact. You`ve got to get him in custody so you can get the swab so you can compare.
GRACE: Ash, Ash, Ash. There`s more than one way to skin a cat. You don`t have to fly the man home and feed him champagne and giant prawns to get an oral swab. What do you think he was doing in Bangkok anyway? You think you can`t get his DNA in Bangkok, Thailand? Hello? Think about it.
JOSHI: Well, I`m afraid he`s probably left his DNA in many places in Bangkok, and that`s probably why he was in Bangkok.
GRACE: Yes, well, Ash, I don`t really think it`s that funny, the fact that this guy facing child porn charges is in the sex trade capital of the world, where children are treated as nothing but vessels for adults to use and then throw away. So there`s a lot of ways to get his DNA. You don`t have to ruin a future prosecution in order to get his DNA.
But your point well-taken, Ash and Hillah. If they did not follow the lead, then they kick themselves later.
Right here on the set, very special guest with me from Alabama, Teresa Alligood, went to high school with John Mark Karr and, coincidentally, she brought her annual. That`s Alabama for yearbook, yes, no?
ALLIGOOD: Yes.
GRACE: Show me. What do you have in here? What was he like, by the way, in high school?
ALLIGOOD: He was very quiet, very to himself, very nice...
GRACE: He looked like John Travolta in high school. Was that the typical dress at that time?
ALLIGOOD: If you were preppie and owned a DeLorean and drove around.
GRACE: How much does a DeLorean cost?
ALLIGOOD: Oh, gosh, more than I could even imagine, I`m sure.
GRACE: His father bought him the DeLorean, right, for having him go - - felt guilty about having him raised by his grandparents? How`d he get the DeLorean?
ALLIGOOD: That is a rumor that was going around.
GRACE: But you know what? You know who`s with us? Gary Harris. This is John Karr`s family lawyer.
Gary Harris, I know you`re a veteran trial lawyer, but I`ve got to ask you a car question. How did this guy get his mitts on a DeLorean in high school?
GARY HARRIS, ATTORNEY FOR KARR FAMILY: That`s the first I`ve heard of that.
GRACE: Oh, man. A red DeLorean, with the theater door -- you know, I`m stunned. You know, you`ve got to do some legal research on that, Gary. I`ve got to get to the bottom of that one.
HARRIS: Well, he didn`t get it from his father, Wex Karr, because his father, Wex Karr, he`s not a very rich person at all.
GRACE: OK. I`m going to get to the bottom of the whole DeLorean thing. Hold on, Gary. We`ll be right back with you. With us is the Karr family attorney, Gary Harris, kind enough to call in tonight.
Teresa, again, show us your high school annual, where he signed it, "Shall be the conqueror," correct?
ALLIGOOD: Right.
GRACE: And then the note, of course, which I have a copy of right here, it is signed "SBTC." Go ahead, dear.
ALLIGOOD: OK. This is where he was in the band. And did you want to see other pictures?
GRACE: Yes.
ALLIGOOD: And here is John in the media club...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Interesting. What`s the media club?
ALLIGOOD: Basically, they worked in the library with the media side of things, with...
GRACE: Oh, they had to go get the film projector?
ALLIGOOD: Yes.
GRACE: OK, got you. Media club, OK.
ALLIGOOD: And, of course, you`ve got that one already.
GRACE: Got that one.
ALLIGOOD: Yes.
GRACE: Tell me about him and -- is this the one he signed?
ALLIGOOD: Yes.
GRACE: Now, you said that he was shy?
ALLIGOOD: I would consider him shy, not outgoing...
GRACE: Did he date girls? Did he go out on dates?
ALLIGOOD: I don`t know of any girls he went out with.
GRACE: Did he try to go out with girls?
ALLIGOOD: Yes, he did ask girls out. There are a few girls that I know that he asked out.
GRACE: Well, he didn`t look that bad in high school. Why did everybody turn him down?
ALLIGOOD: Maybe because he wasn`t as popular. I know that he had asked a couple of girls out and they turned him down. He`s very sensitive. He actually asked my sister out at one point, which is what this means here.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Can you zoom in on that, Dusty, Dusty? OK, where is it?
ALLIGOOD: Right here.
GRACE: Are too good for that, what does that say...
ALLIGOOD: No, it`s where he says, "Thanks for caring, unlike your loving sister, when I felt the worst." That`s what that had to do with. He was...
GRACE: He asked her out, and she said no?
ALLIGOOD: Yes, but she...
GRACE: And he put it in your yearbook?
ALLIGOOD: Yes.
GRACE: OK. "Always stay happy. Success to its fullest capacity." There is that A with the umbrella again.
ALLIGOOD: There are a lot of As with the umbrella.
GRACE: "Wish you the best, no less, maybe even more. You deserve it all." What is that?
ALLIGOOD: That would be his signature.
GRACE: OK. Again, I want to hear more about what he was like in school. You saw the DeLorean, right? I`m still trying to find out where that came from.
ALLIGOOD: He did have a DeLorean. And there was actually footage on TV with him with it in his driveway. I`m not sure who had it, but it was primed and sitting in the driveway, and it was on the news today.
GRACE: When he got turned down by these various girls in high school, you said he was very sensitive. What was his reaction?
ALLIGOOD: Just the typical being sensitive and hurt, but I don`t know...
GRACE: Well, we all get hurt in high school. I mean, I don`t think there`s anybody on the set that didn`t get dumped by somebody in high school.
ALLIGOOD: Right.
GRACE: Anybody want to volunteer? OK, everybody got dumped in high school.
ALLIGOOD: And you don`t see a lot of guys that get emotional and that sensitive regarding girls.
GRACE: You mean, like, cry?
ALLIGOOD: Well, I wouldn`t say cry, but, I mean, he was full of emotions and he was pretty upset and hurt.
GRACE: Well, sitting here in the studio with me psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig, shaking her head. Why? You know, people carry that around the rest of their lives, all that angst from high school.
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it sounds like there was just a lot of rejection that he felt. He didn`t live with his parents. He lived with his grandparents. We don`t know what that meant to him.
He reported that his mother wanted him to be a girl, which could have something to do with him looking into changing his gender. So this is a person who had a lot of rejection in his life, was obviously sensitive and problematic.
GRACE: Let`s go to Patty in Georgia. Hi, Patty.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you tonight?
GRACE: Great. Thanks for calling. What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Well, listen, there`s something that`s really been bugging me. How does someone on a substitute teacher`s salary be able to afford to fly all over the place, you know, be able to afford a possible future sex change operation? I think somebody`s funding him and keeping him quiet.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Michael Sandrock, reporter with the "Boulder Daily Camera." He met Karr and Harris, introduced him to Professor Tracey. What do we know? How is he funding his globe-trotting? Has anybody figured that out?
MICHAEL SANDROCK, REPORTER, "BOULDER DAILY CAMERA": Well, that`s a good question. And when I met John Karr in Paris in the summer of 2002, he was just one of scores and really hundreds of backpackers that go all through Europe. And when I asked him what he was doing, he said he was just traveling for the summer. He had come from Amsterdam. And you don`t ask him where he gets the money, because everyone in Paris seems to have money in the summer.
(NEWSBREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MARK KARR, SUSPECT IN JONBENET RAMSEY INVESTIGATION: I loved JonBenet, and she died accidentally.
QUESTION: Are you an innocent man?
KARR: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right, it was an accident, if you call cracking her skull open and slowly strangling her to death an accident in the basement of the home. There are a lot of theories floating around about what really happened to JonBenet Ramsey and where does Karr fit in?
Tonight, one thing we`re analyzing is the handwriting. And here on the set with us, the woman whose yearbook was signed that became fodder and a handwriting sample. Teresa Alligood is with us.
And very quickly out to our handwriting expert, Don Lehew. Don, can people`s handwriting change over time? For instance -- Dusty, if you`ll show this crazy, medieval-looking signature of his -- I mean, years ago, his signature is not like that. Now, but we`ve got some very startling comparisons. So can it change over time?
LEHEW: Yes, it can. And one of the things that happens is, as we mature, our handwriting typically changes. But if we don`t mature in one phase or another of our life, the handwriting can get stuck in that phase.
GRACE: And, Don, what about someone that has multiple personalities? Would they have different handwritings?
LEHEW: I`ve got samples from people that have had up to five personalities, and I`ve seen samples of up to 75 personalities.
GRACE: And you would have then different -- you`d have 75 handwritings with some commonality from the same person?
LEHEW: Yes.
GRACE: OK, yes, that`s what I wanted to look at. But, Liz, let me go to Teresa very quickly.
Teresa, show them what you consider to be the most important part of this yearbook signing.
ALLIGOOD: Everybody seems to be focusing on the "shall be the conqueror." I`m focusing on, "Deep in the future, maybe I shall be the conqueror." He`s saying deep in the future. This was written in 1982; the ransom note was written in 1996.
GRACE: "Sometimes so blurred by my own eyes I`ve seen the best things come and go simultaneously, though deep in the future maybe I shall be the conqueror and live in multiple peace." OK, you don`t expect that type of a signing in your high school yearbook.
OK, let`s show the viewers what really stopped me in my tracks when I saw this, because I find his intruder theory to be crazy, wacky and unbelievable, but you`ve got to see this. Do you have that graph for me? The comparisons between the -- OK, we`ll start at the top.
Well, that is from the high school yearbook. Notice the curving in the parallel Ls. Still got it in the ransom note. "All," the A with the umbrella. A, umbrella, still the curved parallel Ls. Excellent.
And I`m looking at the T. Catch this for me, Dusty. If you see, the T has a tail, as Don Lehew was telling us. There`s a tail here. There`s a tail here in the ransom note, same thing in these Ts. They`ve got tails and umbrellas over the A. The umbrella over the A very unusual.
Really unusual is the teardrop D, as in dog, D, around and delivery adequate. This is years later. The W, the same. And very importantly, the A. These are comparisons that have stopped everybody in their tracks.
Although isn`t it true -- back out to Michael Sandrock with the "Boulder Daily Camera" -- isn`t it true that Patsy Ramsey, one of her handwriting samples was inconclusive as to whether she wrote the ransom note, too?
SANDROCK: That was a theory for a long time, and so you can go back and forth on the handwriting. I think it`s fascinating to hear the handwriting expert talk about it, because I think it just shows the bizarre nature of this case and the fact that it`s taken so many twists and turns, just the fact that John Karr was arrested in Bangkok and being brought back. I think we can go through so many details in his past and find comparisons with details of this case, but I think you can do that with a lot of people.
GRACE: And to Trip Demuth, former deputy D.A. there in Boulder, Colorado, did Patsy Ramsey at one juncture have an inconclusive writing comparison?
TRIP DEMUTH, FORMER DEPUTY D.A., BOULDER: I think the best that they ever established was inconclusive.
GRACE: Yes.
DEMUTH: And then there was other experts that have said it wasn`t.
GRACE: Do you support the intruder theory?
DEMUTH: I`ve believed for a long time that an intruder committed this crime.
GRACE: Why?
DEMUTH: Well, I mean, all the evidence that everybody`s been talking about with regard to this case, you`ve got the DNA evidence, you`ve got the footprint evidence, you`ve got the stun gun evidence, the palm print evidence, all of which point...
GRACE: Hold on. Wait, wait, wait. You said stun gun evidence. Was it conclusively shown that a stun gun was used?
DEMUTH: Well, I don`t know that you can ever conclusively, but there was strong circumstantial evidence suggesting a stun gun was used.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go to the lines. Let`s go to Karen in Ontario. Hi, Karen.
CALLER: Hi. I was wondering if you thought that John Karr, once he was arrested in Thailand, figured that he`d be better off in an American prison and would make up a story like this?
GRACE: Well, you know what? When I first heard the news reports, I thought, "Who wouldn`t lie to get out of a Thai jail?" But the reality is, he was not being held, Karen, on any charges in Thailand. Surprise! They simply picked him up at the behest of Colorado officials. So the first theory that he only wanted out of jail doesn`t hold up.
But it`s very interesting -- to Robi Ludwig -- that, while he says he`s not innocent, he can`t offer any details.
LUDWIG: Yes. I mean, it`s very possible, too, that if he`s insane that he thinks he`s guilty even though he didn`t do something or he knows enough about the case where he wants to be linked to it in some way. So, again, there are a lot of question marks at this point in the case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARR: Her death was an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: SO you were in the basement?
KARR: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us about your connection to the Ramsey family?
KARR: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you get into the basement to play with her?
KARR: No comment on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He can spin a yarn, all right, but is he the real deal? To forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, I know you`ve read the autopsy report. He says he drugged her and raped her, but she still had a hymen.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, that`s correct. The autopsy report indicated that there was an abrasion of the vaginal vault, as well as some blood build-up. But the fact of the matter is the medical examiner shied away from saying it was a sexual assault. In fact, they did find some birefringent material in there, and that`s why she may have been penetrated by some object.
GRACE: Joining us, Gary Harris, the Karr family attorney. Mr. Harris, thank you for being with us tonight. He represents John`s father and two brothers. He`s calling us from Clayton, Georgia.
Can`t anybody find a Christmas picture of this guy, 12-26-96? Coincidentally his Yahoo! address, December251996@yahoo.com. Freaky but does not make a murderer. Don`t you guys have a family photo or anything?
HARRIS: Well, we`ve got a photo that I`ll have available to me in the morning that I think is going to shed a lot of light on this.
GRACE: Do you really? Such as?
HARRIS: It`s taken Christmas day of `96.
GRACE: Please tell me, is he in it or not?
HARRIS: He`s not in this picture, no, but his three sons are. And they were at Wex Karr`s house for Christmas, and there`s also a picture with the three boys of their cousin, who was two weeks old...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Do they recall him being there?
HARRIS: Well, what they recall is that he never missed a family Christmas. And they don`t specifically recall this Christmas, but they know that he never missed one until five years ago, when he disappeared.
GRACE: Gary Harris, the John Karr family attorney, that photo being released tomorrow. Thank you...
HARRIS: Now, let me tell you one other thing.
GRACE: Sir, I`m sorry, we`re going to black. I want to thank you. Please join us again. And thank you for joining us. Good night, friend.
END
