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Nancy Grace
JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr arrives in Boulder, Colorado
Aired August 24, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr, in full body shackles, touches down, Boulder, Colorado, under tight security, formal charges of murder one, kidnapping, sex assault waiting on him. Was Karr actually allowed to run a day care center just six months after JonBenet was murdered? And tonight, newly revealed court documents should Boulder DA still hot on the investigation and fighting tooth and nail to keep Karr`s arrest warrant affidavit sealed, secret from the public. And we learn Karr has been investigated in other crimes on children, including murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether or not Mr. Karr ultimately is found under the evidence in a court of law to be involved or not, whether the charges are sustained or whether they`re dismissed, the goal here has got to be to remain focused on finding the killer of this child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez, standing by in Boulder, Colorado. Jean, where is John Mark Karr right now, and what has gone down in the last three hours?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, John Mark Karr is inside the Boulder County jail right now, beginning to be processed. You know, everybody believed that he was going to land at the airport that is right next to the jail. That`s the Boulder Municipal Airport. Everyone was there from all over the world! And guess what? They landed at another airport! Jefferson County airport is where he landed, and then there was a convoy in a black SUV that drove him the 30-minute drive to the jail.
GRACE: Out to security analyst Mike Brooks. Surprised that they hoodwinked the press and landed him elsewhere than the muni airport?
MIKE BROOKS, SECURITY ANALYST: Not a surprise. Today, when they got on at Long Beach, it was a very, very secluded area. They basically sanitized the area before they brought him in. And when he got out of the LA County sheriff`s unmarked cruiser, he was in an orange jumpsuit, handcuffed behind his back. He got out. They took his hands, put around in front, and handcuffed him to a waist chain. He also had on leg shackles, put him in the plane, and the King Air twin-engine plane, and they flew to Jefferson City.
Now, you notice, Nancy, when he got off, he was wearing his red shirt and tie, the same shirt and tie that he had on when he came back from Bangkok because he wanted to look like a teacher.
GRACE: You know what? Mike, I don`t understand it. There you see him emerging in his, let me say, outfit. Why is he getting special treatment? I don`t understand it! Now, we all understand that under the Constitution, all people have equal protection under the law. That has been interpreted over the years to mean, in this case, someone that is on bail is not treated any differently than someone behind bars waiting for trial. In other words, in front of a jury, they get to wear street clothes, not their orange prison jumpsuit. We don`t have a jury yet, Mike Brooks!
BROOKS: No, you don`t. And I was surprised to see him in his uniform, if you will, red shirt and tie. But he is going to be giving that up as soon as he is getting in-processed at the Boulder County jail for some new prison garb, what they have -- whatever color they wear there in Boulder. And then I`m sure, when we see him for his initial appearance, you`ll see him back in the red shirt and tie again.
GRACE: As we take a look at John Mark Karr speeding away from the local airport there in Boulder, Colorado, headed to a Boulder jail cell, awaiting a first appearance, which our sources tell us could be as early as tomorrow or Saturday -- court is in session there on Saturdays -- let`s not forget where this case started, with the discovery of the body of a 6-year- old little girl. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER: Police! (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: What`s going on there, ma`am?
RAMSEY: We have a kidnapping! Hurry, please!
911 OPERATOR: Explain to me what`s going on, OK?
RAMSEY: We have a -- there`s a note left in our daughter`s (INAUDIBLE).
911 OPERATOR: A note was left in your daughter`s (INAUDIBLE)
RAMSEY: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: How old is your daughter?
RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) She`s (INAUDIBLE) 6 years old.
911 OPERATOR: How long ago was this?
RAMSEY: I don`t know. I just found the note! And my daughter`s gone!
911 OPERATOR: Does it say who took her?
RAMSEY: What?
911 OPERATOR: Does it say who took her?
RAMSEY: No. I don`t know. It`s -- there`s a ransom note here.
911 OPERATOR: It`s a ransom note?
RAMSEY: It says "S.B.T.C., victory." Please!
911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s your name? Are you Patsy?
RAMSEY: Patsy Ramsey. I`m the mother! Oh, my God! Please!
911 OPERATOR: OK. I`m sending an officer over, OK?
RAMSEY: Please!
911 OPERATOR: Do you know how long she`s been gone?
RAMSEY: No, I don`t! Please~! We just go up, and she`s not here! Oh, my God! Please!
911 OPERATOR: OK.
RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) please hurry!
911 OPERATOR: I am, honey.
RAMSEY: Please!
911 OPERATOR: Take a deep breath (INAUDIBLE)
RAMSEY: Please, hurry, hurry, hurry~!
911 OPERATOR: Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? Patsy?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
Back out to Jean Casarez, standing by there in Boulder, Colorado. Jean, you said that he is processed, being checked in. What`s the procedure there in Colorado for that?
CASAREZ: Well, that`s the first step. When he enters the jail, what will happen is that he will have a mug shot taken. He will have fingerprints taken. A lot of paperwork needs to be filled out. He also will undergo some medical and psychological tests initially, right in the beginning, because that will help determine where to house him in that jail. Do you put him in with the general population, or do you segregate him so he`s alone and by himself?
GRACE: You are seeing a shot of photos of the Boulder County jail, where John Mark Karr will be held. We understand he`s being segregated from GP, general population, once again getting treatment others wouldn`t have!
But long story short, Ed Miller, Ed with "America`s Most Wanted," there are a lot of people that would want jailhouse justice, someone to go ahead and give him the death penalty right here and now.
ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": You`re absolutely right. You got to remember that`s exactly what happened with Scott Peterson. You know, it was like America`s favorite hated person at the time. And obviously, this man is right up there with the same thing.
GRACE: Hold on. There he is, Ed. Mike was right. He`s getting onto the plane in his orange prison jump from California, and he emerges like a butterfly in a brand-new outfit, Ed Miller.
MILLER: Yes, right. And he...
GRACE: I hope that tie was a clip-on.
MILLER: He will be segregated. He`s also under a suicide watch. He was very unhappy about that, but he will be segregated under the suicide watch, which are -- if I understand it correctly, there are clothes that are specially designed that you cannot make a knot out of them. He was not happy at all with that decision, but they are sticking by it.
GRACE: Hold on just a moment. Suicide watch? To you, Renee Rockwell. You`re a veteran defense attorney. His two self-proclaimed defense attorneys spoke out yesterday, and before that, talking about how articulate, how engaging, basically, just fun to be with this guy was. It sounds like an ad on Match.com. I think they wanted to date him, not represent him.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, and it`s amazing. That`s the first thing you do not do is comment on the client`s mental state. That might be his only defense, if, in fact, he did do it. Red flag. They should not have done that.
GRACE: And back out to Jean Casarez. Jean, on this flight, we now know that he was allowed to change into his designer outfit, but do you think he had king prawns and champagne, or on the way to the jail in his air-conditioned SUV, do you think they let him have it his way at Burger King? Any detours off the route?
CASAREZ: No. I don`t think so. They`re in a different jurisdiction right now. Not only are they on U.S. soil, they`re in Boulder County, Colorado, right now. So you can be sure he didn`t get those amenities that he got flying across the Pacific Ocean.
GRACE: Out to Debbie in Arizona. Hi, Debbie. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I want to know, if he`s not found guilty in Colorado, will he be sent back to LA, or can he roam around Colorado and go look at her grave and all of that?
GRACE: Now, that`s a thought. Let me hold onto that for a moment, him at the grave of JonBenet Ramsey. Now, you know, Debbie, according to his family, he was under their Christmas tree December 26, 1996, not JonBenet Ramsey`s. But if he is released on this, I assume he will be sent back -- to you, Jean Casarez -- to California to answer up on those child porn charges.
CASAREZ: That`s exactly right because those charges have not been dismissed. They are just holding them right now so Colorado can proceed with its investigation. And if they do charge him, formal charges, then so on and so forth. But once this is completed here, and if he is not formally charged, if that`s how it ends up, he will go back to California to face those five misdemeanor charges.
GRACE: Jean, again, he took off today there in Long Beach, California. There were helicopters, sheriff`s copters, law enforcement surrounding him. You and I saw live this afternoon where civilians were disallowed from coming into the entrance of the airport while he was loaded up and took to the friendly skies. What waits for him now, Jean? What exactly is going to happen at his first court appearance?
CASAREZ: Well, he`ll spend his first night tonight in the Boulder County jail, and at his first appearance, which could be as early as tomorrow, what will happen is there`s a lot of procedural items, there`s a lot of constitutional items to take place because, first of all, he will be apprised of his rights. He will also be apprised of the charges based on the probable cause arrest warrant for him that arrested him in Thailand. He will be advised of his right to counsel, if he does not already have somebody by his side.
The issue of bail can be brought up, even argued initially. Constitutionally, he has that right. And then the district attorney will announce to the court the date that she intends to file formal charges.
GRACE: You are seeing a shot just moments ago, John Mark Karr touching down. Now, take a look at Karr in earlier times. This is home video of him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These people around here...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Happy little family!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a whole all-year process (INAUDIBLE) winter...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s see you go back some.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did you hear that singing voice? All right, now, I`m going to go out to Katherine in Indiana. And Liz, if you could, let`s hear Karr in his own words, Elizabeth. I like the viewers to hear what he`s really like when he thinks nobody`s listening, as opposed to when he`s on camera, the way we`ve seen him in the past few days.
Let`s go out to the caller. Hello, ma`am. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is that Dan Abrams had reported that John Ramsey had called him to report the arrest of John Mark Karr, and now Mr. Ramsey is upset that he`s being hounded by the press. And my question for myself and all of the people at the Forumforjustice.com want to know where`s John Ramsey tonight.
GRACE: I am guessing -- and I`ll ask you about this, as well, Stacey Schneider -- my educated guess is that the family, any and all potential witnesses, have been asked not to comment. Why would that be, Stacey?
STACEY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right now, the district attorney`s office in Boulder has indicated over and over that this is an ongoing investigation. They don`t want comments from the family or anybody else to compromise potential testimony or information that other witnesses are going to supply. So they`re always very careful in this type of case to make sure that people are not commenting to the media and putting forth facts about the case in the public arena.
GRACE: Renee, agree or disagree?
ROCKWELL: I agree, Nancy. The first thing that John Ramsey wants is that the right person is prosecuted, not the wrong person. So he doesn`t want to compromise this at all. Absolutely, you have a situation where if the wrong person is prosecuted, then you`ve still got a killer on the loose.
GRACE: Well, if that killer is still alive, if that killer is still in the country to be apprehended -- you are seeing a shot from just moments ago, John Mark Karr coming down off of a turboprop plane, a Beach King, a seven-seater, as I recall. He was surrounded by three Boulder deputies, two state troopers and two pilots, I`m sure all armed to the teeth. When he got onto the plane, he was in full shackle at foot, wrist and waist, wearing his prison orange. There was a metamorphosis on the plane. There you see him in a suit, a dress shirt, suit pants and a tie. I don`t believe he`s shackled at the foot. So some of the shackles have been removed, likely to come down that ladder.
Agree or disagree, Mike Brooks?
BROOKS: Yes. It`s hard to tell, Nancy. Looked like he was shackled, did have leg shackles on, but he might have had the waist chain back on again. But you know, why change clothes? Probably because he`s going to get a new uniform. Probably, he already has his new jumpsuit right about now.
GRACE: We showed you John Mark Karr at a moment when he was struck by the muse, singing, "Falling in Love With You." Take a listen to how he sounds when he`s on what believes to be a private conversation.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JOHN MARK KARR, SUSPECT IN JONBENET RAMSEY MURDER: JonBenet. God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, that doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: CNN has not been able to independently verify the authenticity of that audiotape. That`s from Wendy Hutchens. She`s a northern California resident who worked with Sonoma County sheriff`s office. She says it`s Karr. She says it was him back in 2001, just before he was arrested in Sonoma on child pornography. Tomorrow evening, we`re going to have a full hour with Ms. Hutchens and more of the tapes of John Mark Karr in his own words, when he thinks nobody else is listening.
I want to go back to Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Ed, according to other sources, this guy has been investigated on several other crimes. Are you familiar with that?
MILLER: Yes. Nancy, specifically, you`re talking about the crime of the murder of a 12-year-old child in northern California. And Sonoma County has made the rather unusual gesture of making that information public. In other words, they want the world to know that they turned that information over to Boulder County way back in 2001, and apparently, nothing happened to it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I found significant comparison documents that were adequate to convince me that he is the one that wrote the ransom note.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are major structural differences that cannot be reasonably explained. There are the differences in the letter "e." There are the letter "m," the letter "v" as in victor, the letter "u."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re not the typical lower case "l." The "a" and the "d" are out of character from what we learned in school, typically. I had 13 letters that matched significantly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are similarities, but similarity is not identity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What will the evidence be against John Mark Karr? Is there any evidence, or has the DA taken us on a wild goose chase -- correction, another wild goose chase -- to try to solve the mystery of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
On to a special guest, an expert on so-called false confessions. His name, Richard Ofshe. Richard, thank you for being with us. What do you make of John Mark Karr`s so-called confession?
DR. RICHARD OFSHE, FALSE CONFESSIONS EXPERT: His confession or his statement is really very troubling. It starts with the fact that we really have no idea who interrogated him, how long they interrogated him. For the first time today, I saw something on an AP wire that actually admitted he was interrogated. Up to that point, it wasn`t clear exactly what happened. In the beginning, people thought he had just sort of volunteered this statement.
But what`s really troubling about what he said were things such as, I was present when it happened, and it was -- her death was an accident. Those two statements are not inconsistent, in fact, they are consistent with classic interrogation tactics used to elicit statements from people that are not infrequently false.
The first one is the result of a strategy in which the interrogator tries to sell someone, as happened in the Central Park jogger case, on the idea that, You were only a witness to this and you need to tell us about what you saw. That got five false confessions to the assault and rape of Patricia Melly (ph) in the Central Park jogger case.
The other one, She died by accident -- well, we know that that`s not true based on the forensic evidence, and somehow transforming what is obviously an intentional killing...
GRACE: Richard, other than the few recent things that we`ve heard that he said, what about his volumes and volumes of e-mails and conversations he`s had with people other than police?
OFSHE: And I don`t know of one statement in any of that that goes beyond showing that he had a very extraordinary and perhaps distasteful fascination with JonBenet Ramsey, but I don`t know of anyone saying he ever confessed or admitted to harming her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Ramsey wants what Mary Lacy, the district attorney in Boulder, wants, what I think many millions of Americans want. He wants the person who brutally murdered his daughter to be brought to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Within the past hour, John Mark Karr has touched down on Colorado soil. He flew there in a Beech King turboprop plane. With him inside the plane, two state troopers, three Boulder deputies, two pilots, I`m sure all armed to the gills.
Let`s go out to the lines. Kathy in Florida. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m great. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, have you checked on the story about him running a day care center?
GRACE: Checked on it? Oh, yes, we have. He did have a license to run a day care center about six months after the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. We have actually called and found out that a license was given to him, and he did have children -- Ellie, wasn`t it in his home? He had a day care center in his home. We`re still trying to determine how many little children were in and out of that home.
To Ed Miller. We`re expecting this to come out tomorrow in "People" magazine, an expose on John Mark Karr. What do you make of the new revelations?
MILLER: Well, the revelations aren`t as shocking as some of the stuff that we uncovered, was the fact that he`s had more than a dozen teaching jobs in school districts all over the country. And right from the very beginning, there were complaints against him, only he was never red- flagged.
In other words, he was allowed to quietly go from one district to another, even though right from the very beginning, parents complained that he was overly affectionate, inappropriate to things to children. But he was allowed to go from one school district to another. No one said, Hey, hey, don`t hire this guy, he`s trouble. And we found out that there were lots of other teachers all over the country, pedophile teachers that are allowed to very quietly resign when they get in trouble, and therefore, they continue teaching, one district to another.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you look at the physical evidence in this case, it`s abundant. We have unidentified footwear impressions in the room where her body was found. There`s a paintbrush that`s missing. There`s rope. There`s tape. There`s a number of things that point to an intruder. You got an open window. You have a suitcase at the base of that window with glass on top of it. These are all obvious signs that an intruder entered this home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Those are crime scene photos taken in the home of JonBenet Ramsey. The other photos we did not deem appropriate to air. Just a few - - just in the last hour, John Mark Karr has touched down on Colorado`s soil. He`s headed to a Colorado courtroom for a first appearance, flying in a turbo prop Beach King (ph), two pilots, three deputy sheriffs from Boulder, and two state troopers accompanying him.
And there was a metamorphosis; the butterfly came out of the cocoon. He went from orange prison jumpsuit to this stylish get-up. He says he doesn`t want the public to see him in the prison blue or orange and that he wants to give the impression of being a schoolteacher.
Out to Jean Casarez. Jean, a lot of new revolutions in the "People" magazine expose.
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Yes, there are. I think the one that touched me the most was that we had heard that Patsy Ramsey knew there was a suspect and knew that that suspect ultimately was going to be arrested. What we didn`t know, but what "People" magazine is saying, is that Patsy Ramsey flew to Boulder, Colorado, in February of this year to talk with Mary Lacy in her office, right over my shoulder at the justice center, about John Karr.
GRACE: And to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, he states, "Hey, I`ll show them. They`ll say I`m not crazy anymore." I guess translation: Now, they`ll think I`m just a child killer. That`s so much better.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I guess he pulled the wool over all of our eyes, right?
GRACE: Yes, he showed us.
MARSHALL: It seems actually like he`s suffering from something we call delusional disorder. It`s a psychiatric syndrome, and he seems to be having several delusions. One is he feels he has a special, unique relationship with JonBenet.
By some reports, he has a delusion that he`s going to be killed. I read that in some media reports. And then he also has the delusion that he`s a woman, because he was planning a sex change operation. And I think that what happened is that the delusion just got out of control as he reached middle age, which is not atypical for this particular disorder, and he began to write more e-mails and to fantasize about it more and more. It really just came to the public attention and to the attention of law enforcement.
GRACE: And Bethany Marshall, it`s interesting about him wanting the sex change operation.
MARSHALL: Yes.
GRACE: Apparently, reports stating that he told the workers there when he was having all of his hair lasered off his face...
MARSHALL: Right.
GRACE: ... and chin and neck, they said, "Do you want us to leave any?" And he reportedly said, "Well, whatever a woman would have." FYI: Most of us really don`t have facial hair...
MARSHALL: Right.
GRACE: ... Mr. Karr.
MARSHALL: I think that`s why he was so fascinated with JonBenet, in fantasy if not in reality, because I don`t think he ever really knew her, is that he wanted so much to be a woman himself that, who was he going to identify with? A little beauty queen. In his mind, she`s a beauty queen. And then that`s intertwined with the pedophilia, so it`s going to be, of course, a 60-year-old beauty queen. But it`s based upon the identification and the wish to be like her.
GRACE: Wendy Hutchens, a Northern California resident, cooperated with Sonoma County officials in their child pornography investigation. This is a shot of the justice center. Once John Mark Karr touched down, it was thronged. This is what Wendy Hutchens had to say regarding her secretly taped phone conversations of Karr.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WENDY HUTCHENS, CLAIMS SHE KNOWS JOHN MARK KARR: He was drinking, and he opened up and he started to tell me about what he was doing. And so I immediately contacted the authorities. Then we met with the FBI. They approved for me to record our conversations.
He knew JonBenet`s family because his brother worked for the Ramseys, worked for Mr. Ramsey, and he worked for him for a long time. And the Ramseys were having a party. He had his family on vacation there, and his brother was there, and they had a party, an open house party, a Christmas party at their house.
He went to the party with his brother, looked around. He met JonBenet, sat on the stairs with her by her kitchen, ate pineapple with her, and talked to her, and, you know, did his funny voices and some magic tricks, you know, quarter behind the ear kind of thing and, you know, got her confidence.
At that time, then he went down in the house, because everybody was busy at the party -- he went to a part of the house that really wasn`t open, but there was nobody -- there were like no guards, so he went down and found a storm window in a part of the house that nobody was likely to go and check every night, and unlocked the storm window.
And because he`s a small, you know, petite man, he knew he could get in there. He had parked in the neighborhood. He waited for them to leave. Then, he went and let himself in through the storm window and got prepared, got everything ready for what he was going to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: CNN has not been able to confirm those audio tapes. We`ll have Ms. Wendy Hutchens with us tomorrow night with more of John Mark Karr purportedly and her explanation of the tapes.
Back out to Jean Casarez. Did they actually change their flight plan to hoodwink the press or did they just take a left turn?
CASAREZ: You know, that`s a good question. We know that the plane took off this morning from Jefferson County, but we were all told that the plane was going to land at Boulder Municipal, because it`s literally right next door, Nancy, to the jail. You get in a vehicle. You just drive almost across a parking lot, and you`d be at the jail.
So for some reason, they decided to land that plane 30 minutes away from the jail, so we`ll work on that and figure out why, but there`s got to be a reason.
GRACE: What about it, Mike Brooks? You`re the security analyst. Did they have to change their flight plan and the press just didn`t find out in time?
MIKE BROOKS, SECURITY ANALYST: You know, Nancy, they probably did it just for the safety and security of him and also for the officers who were escorting him. You know, one of the things that you didn`t see that you would normally see with someone like him would be a bullet-resistant vest. We see him getting off with just the shirt.
When you have high-profile subjects like this, you usually see a vest, but they were at a fairly secluded area. They didn`t feel like there was any need for that. And that could be one of the reasons they decided to go ahead and change to Jefferson County.
GRACE: Well, could he have had the vest on under the shirt? It would be just like him, with his vanity, for the vest not to be on the outside. It would ruin the look, Mike.
BROOKS: No, you would definitely be able to see the vest, with his physique, underneath there. It look like he would have a physique. But, no, they definitely would put it on the outside.
GRACE: Renee, if this guy goes to trial, how in the heck are you going to keep it away from the jury that your guy wanted a sex change and had all his facial and neck hair removed with a laser treatment?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t want if you want to keep that away from a jury. You want the jury to think that he`s just as whacked out as he can get. But can we talk about something, Nancy?
GRACE: Well, don`t you think his so-called defense attorneys kind of ruined that by announcing how lucid, and entertaining, and articulate, and witty he is?
ROCKWELL: Again, rule number one, something they never should have commented on, his mental state.
GRACE: Well, they did.
ROCKWELL: Can we talk about the flight, the overseas flight that he took, where he had the prawns, and the drinks, and the champagne, and the chardonnay?
GRACE: The pate.
ROCKWELL: The pate.
GRACE: The Martha Stewart chocolate cake.
ROCKWELL: What a cheap shot by the police and, I have to say it, but quite brilliant, because here you got a guy that`s not handcuffed and is presumably not in custody. Look at him. See the guy sitting right next to him?
I can promise you that they`re letting Mark Karr order anything that he wants to drink. And that he`s talking, and talking, and talking. And there he is. I wouldn`t be surprised at all if what he`s talking about on that plane comes out in trial. And I think it`s just a cheap shot, but a very brilliant move on the part of the police department.
GRACE: I don`t know about that, Renee. If that were the case, you could booze up every defendant you ever arrested to see if they`d talk. That hasn`t been approved so far under the Constitution.
Out to a very special guest joining us right now, a former friend of John Mark Karr, Glenda Edwards. Ms. Edwards, thank you for being with us.
GLENDA EDWARDS, FORMER FRIEND OF JOHN MARK KARR: Hello, hi. Thank you.
GRACE: I guess you`re pretty surprised lately with the new revelations about Karr. But what was he like when you knew him, any unusual behavior?
EDWARDS: Well, yes, he was very secretive. He was...
GRACE: In what way?
EDWARDS: Well, he didn`t want the town of Hamilton to know his business.
GRACE: And what encounters, if any, did you have with him?
EDWARDS: What encounters?
GRACE: Yes. What was he like?
EDWARDS: Well, when I first met him, he was into music and, you know, that`s what intrigued me, you know, to get to know him better. And he was nice, you know? He was personable. And he changed, I know he changed when he got married.
GRACE: Did you know his wives?
EDWARDS: Yes. Lara, yes, I did.
GRACE: And was the first one actually 13?
EDWARDS: Yes, Quientana was 13.
GRACE: That marriage, very, very unusual. I`m very surprised it was even allowed.
EDWARDS: Yes, I didn`t know her that well. I was just at the skating rink, and I didn`t know Quientana too well. She was younger than me. She was like a year or two younger.
(NEWSBREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You look at the physical evidence in this case, it`s abundant. We have unidentified footwear impressions in the room where her body was found. There`s a paintbrush that`s missing. There`s rope. There`s tape. There`s a number of things that point to an intruder. You have an open window. You have a suitcase at the base of that window with glass on top of it. These are all obvious signs that an intruder entered this home.
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GRACE: There are signs that an intruder came into the home of JonBenet Ramsey December 25, 1996. There are also signs that the killer was from within, that no alarm went off, no entry was ever heard, that the intruder, the killer, sat back and wrote a very long and extensive ransom note, plus a practice note, that it was someone who lured the child, fed her pineapple, and then lovingly covered her with a blanket after her death.
Still, the mystery remains. John Mark Karr just touching down on Colorado soil, his first appearance set for within 72 hours from now. Straight back out to Jean Casarez.
I understand you now know why the flight plan was changed?
CASAREZ: I do, Nancy. Your producer confirmed with the Boulder County sheriff`s department there were two reasons why that flight plan was changed at the last minute. Number one, weather conditions. And might I tell you, there are dark clouds all over this area.
And number two, they decided that the runway was not long enough for this plane. It`s the pilot`s discretion. He made the choice in midair, and there was a contingency plan to land at that other airport.
And, Nancy, I had talked to people about Municipal Airport here. They have never seen a plane, except for a twin-propeller plane, to land at the Municipal Airport, so that does make sense why they didn`t go in that direction.
GRACE: OK. If that`s the way you want it, Jean, that`s the way you can have it. The reason that the path wasn`t long enough is because there were so many journalists clogging up one end of it. That`s why I think they went to the other airport, but whatever, Jean. Have it your way.
I want to go out to Ed Miller. Earlier, we got a call regarding his daycare center that he operated within six months of JonBenet Ramsey`s murder. What can you tell us about that?
ED MILLER, REPORTER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, I can tell you that there were surprisingly no complaints about that daycare center. The complaints have come from his teaching jobs, but no complaints about the day care center, that he apparently applied for the license in 1987. He`s been teaching in -- started teaching since 1996, I should say, started teaching in 1996, lots of complaints about his teaching, no complaints about the daycare center.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Linda in Oregon, hi, Linda, what`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Hello there. I was just wondering if there are any laws that provide for reimbursement to the government for expenses or to the victim`s family from these people who tried to profit from these tragedies.
GRACE: You know, there was the Son of Sam law which was instituted following Son of Sam murders, David Berkowitz. That was struck down by our U.S. Supreme Court. They said it violated the right to speech. Now, that was following U.S. v. Simon and Schuster. Remember, the "Goodfellas" movie and book? Well, it was out of that scenario that Son of Sam laws were struck down, Linda.
As a result, many states, including Texas, California and others, have created something as a stop-gap measure called notoriety for gain laws (ph) that may or may not apply in this case. We already know that the Karr family has contracted with a producer for a book and movie rights. So, Linda, I`m concerned right along with you.
To Jean Casarez, any chance this guy will show up in court Friday or Saturday? We know now -- we`ve confirmed they do have Saturday court there for his first appearance.
CASAREZ: Sure, anything is possible. Under the statute, under the law in Colorado, it`s without undue delay. Once they arrive in the county, without undue delay, they are to appear in court for the first appearance, so anything is possible.
GRACE: And at that first appearance, Stacy Schneider, he`ll be given his rights, similar to Miranda rights.
STACY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s true. He`ll be told that he has the right to a counsel, and counsel will be appointed for him or he`ll have his own private counsel. The charges will be formally read to him, putting him on notice of what the state of Colorado is charging him with.
He`ll enter his not guilty plea, as a matter of course, and then there will be bail arguments by the prosecution and his defense attorney as to what would be the appropriate bail in this case. A lot of times, with extradition cases, bail isn`t set at all. It`s called a remand, and he`s actually sent in to prison without any bail on him and no possibility of raising a bail to get out, so he`d be stuck in through the duration of this case and trial.
GRACE: And speaking of his defense attorneys, believe it or not, some three dozen defense attorneys have volunteered to represent him for free.
Now, the crime scene photos in this case are very disturbing. They point to someone within the home committing the crime, as well as the possibility of intruders.
To Dr. Daniel Spitz, forensic pathologist who has very carefully reviewed the autopsy report, Dr. Spitz, this guy also said he drugged and then had sex with JonBenet Ramsey. But when I read the autopsy report, I didn`t see any drugs mentioned being in her system.
DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, when you look at an autopsy report and a toxicology report, you need to realize that toxicology doesn`t look for every single drug that`s out there. It looks for most common drugs. And the possibility of JonBenet being given a drug certainly exists and that that drug wasn`t part of the panel that was done in that toxicology report.
The so-called date rape drug is a perfect example of that. That is a drug that is not generally included in the broad screen that is done, so that drug could have been given to her...
GRACE: Exactly.
SPITZ: ... and had not been tested for it, you may never pick it up.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, John in Indiana, hi, John.
CALLER: Hello.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: My question was, had the DNA that was found at the crime scene been tested previously? And if it had been, was it ever run through a national database?
GRACE: As of right now, there is not a national DNA databank. There is an AFUS (ph) for fingerprint, but not DNA. We`re hoping and we believe there is enough DNA for those tests once there`s someone to try to match it to.
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JOHN MARK KARR, SUSPECT IN JONBENET RAMSEY INVESTIGATION: I love JonBenet, and she died accidentally.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you an innocent man? Are you an innocent man?
KARR: No.
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GRACE: Confessed killer to the murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey touching down on Colorado`s soil, back where the crime occurred. His first appearance is any time within the next 72 hours.
Back to the question from John. In 2003, the DNA was tried for a match with the FBI database. That includes only certain convicted killers across the country. There was not a match.
I want to go back out to the childhood friend, the former friend of John Mark Karr, Glenda Edwards. Glenda, you knew him quite a time ago. You knew his wives. Were you surprised when you heard that he confessed to the murder of Ramsey?
EDWARDS: Yes, I was very surprised, Nancy.
GRACE: Why?
EDWARDS: I just couldn`t believe it. I mean, he was in Thailand. I would never expect John Karr to be in Thailand.
GRACE: And to Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted," apparently "People" magazine has obtained more statements Karr told Thai authorities. What were they? Are they revealing or probative?
MILLER: You know, I`m so glad you asked that question, because much of the information that came out of Thailand, at first they said it was one thing and then they clarified it later, so much of it has been lost in the translation. At first, they said that he had drugged the child, and then they clarified that later and said, "No, he never really said that."
And, according to "People" magazine, Thai police said that at first he said he had sex with her. And this is a big thing. Now they`re insinuating that he never really had sex or maybe his version of sex was kissing her, but that seemed to be a big revelation to me, that now he was backing off of that and saying that he really just kissed her. And that would, of course, match what you had talked about for several days now in the autopsy reports.
GRACE: The ever-changing statements of John Mark Karr. We can only hope and pray at this juncture for justice for that little girl, JonBenet Ramsey.
Thank you to all of our guests, but especially to you, for following this case and inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace signing off. Good night, friend.
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