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CNN LARRY KING LIVE

JoneBenet Ramsey Update; Interview with Project Runway Stars

Aired August 25, 2006 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, JonBenet Ramsey's murder suspect finally behind bars in Boulder, Colorado and finally facing a judge on Monday. Will he really plead not guilty? We've got the latest from Boulder.
And then, behind the scenes of the hottest reality show on TV right now, Project Runway, where the cutthroat competition of Survivor meets the drama of American Idol in the beautiful people, big money world of high fashion.

Supermodel Heidi Klum, the judges, and the winners taking you inside Project Runway and taking your calls next on LARRY KING LIVE.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: In a little while, Heidi Klum and the group from Project Runway, the runaway hit for Bravo.

But first, let's look in on the latest on the JonBenet Ramsey matter. In New York is Dr. Keith Ablow, M.D., forensic psychiatrist, best-selling novelist and non-fiction author, the host of the Dr. Keith Ablow TV Show which debuts on September 11th.

Also in New York is Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, forensic examiner, professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

And, in Boulder, Colorado is Jean Casarez. She's a correspondent with Court TV News. Jean is also an attorney.

What's the latest now on this appearance on Monday, Jean? What's expected?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV CORRESPONDENT: The latest is that it's going to be on Monday, 4:30 p.m. Mountain Time, 6:30 Eastern Time. This is going to be a lot of procedure but also constitutional issues.

He will be advised of his rights. He will advised of his right to remain silent, his right to counsel, his right to ask for bail. He will be apprized of the charges in the probable cause affidavit.

But, Larry, I think what everybody is going to be listening for is when the district attorney stands up to say when she expects to file those formal charges.

KING: Why not Monday?

CASAREZ: Well I don't think she's ready yet because in legal documents she said that "We are still in the investigation stage and we will have a second appearance will be presentment of the charges.

She could do it on Monday but I don't think anyone is expecting it and Court TV News confirmed with the Public Defender's Office that they don't believe formal charges will be filed on Monday either.

KING: We've been interviewing the two lady attorneys who will represent Karr. What's this about the public defender?

CASAREZ: Well, something has just come down. Two orders have come down in the last several hours from the court. First of all, the public defender at this point is representing John Karr here in Colorado. But you'll be very interested, Larry, that an order that has come out of the court based on a motion from the public defender.

It states that any attorney that says that they are representing Karr or believes they are representing Karr or purporting to represent Karr can no longer publicly speak about his character, about any admission he makes, about his emotional state, about any confession, about any guilty plea or any forensic tests that may or may not have been done. So, as far as these two attorney, female attorneys in California they can't talk anymore like they have been the last several days.

KING: Has the judge also put a gag order on the prosecution?

CASAREZ: The judge has ordered a motion to curtail pretrial publicity. You could call it a modified gag order. They can talk about the nature of the charges, issues in public documents, but they can't say anything that could influence a potential jury pool.

KING: Where is Mr. Karr now and do you know anything about how he's doing?

CASAREZ: Mr. Karr is about five miles up the road at the Boulder County Jail. We hear that he is doing fine. We have not heard otherwise. It's been a busy day I think for him. He has been meeting with the public defender, the chief public defender of this county and I'm sure they have been heavily into discussing the case and aspects of what Mr. Karr believes to be true.

KING: By the way because of the public defender let's get this clear it doesn't mean that Ms. Harmon and Ms. Van Zandt are not his attorneys does it?

CASAREZ: Well, I would say at this point they are advising him. They have said that they are representing him. But Court TV news kept talking with this courthouse behind my shoulder until closing time today and we can confirm with you that they have not contacted the court at all with a verified petition that they want to represent him in the court and they have not even telephoned to ask for procedurally how they would represent him in the state of Colorado.

KING: There are reports he got some sort of psychological examination, true?

CASAREZ: That is true because when he would be processed with the court in the jail to decide where he will be placed there would be a psychological examination. I believe we also heard reports that possibly a psychiatrist or mental health expert looked at him in Los Angeles.

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky, this is the first time, you've been with us many times but the first time to talk about this matter. What's your read on Mr. Karr?

DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC EXAMINER: Well, he certainly is a strange individual but regardless of his appearance and his behavior what's crucial here is what is the linkage between him and the victim or the crime scene? What is the physical evidence that indicates at least to the D.A. that she's got the right person?

KING: And do you think she does?

KOBILINSKY: Well, as a scientist I have to say it's early in the investigation. I would say this. There are many pieces to this puzzle and slowly but surely the pieces are coming together. And I must say he cannot be excluded at this point.

KING: We'll ask Dr. Ablow in a minute. But he told us last night that he's never quite seen or heard or anyone like Mr. Karr. Have you, Larry?

KOBILINSKY: I must say he is very odd. He appears to be very spaced out. He's got some very serious problems, not the least of which is this pedophilia. I think the issue in my mind is, is he capable of violent actions? And, I guess some people are questioning the history and there is no obvious history of violence, although I understand one of his ex-wives has indicated that she has been abused by him.

KING: Dr. Ablow, does your skepticism about his guilt continue?

DR. KEITH ABLOW, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: My skepticism about his guilt continues. My clarity on the fact that, of course, since I interviewed Mr. Karr's ex-wife and she claims that he drugged and then well sexually assaulted her repeatedly in her sleep while she was sleeping for two days at a time, if that claim is true is he a violent person?

Well, if the claim is true he certainly is and sexually violent. That doesn't mean he committed this crime and I think that his mental state is such that there could be other explanations that become clear that connect the dots in a different way.

KING: Dr. Ablow, last night we presented some excerpts of that remarkable interview you did with the parents and the first wife, which will air during the week on the premiere of your TV show premiering September 11th.

We're going to show one more access of that tape now, the one that involves Quientana Ray's father discussing who is truly to blame for what happened to his daughter. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABLOW: There's a lot of guilt in your family and yet you had somebody from outside who is the really guilty party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I woke up to this fact last Thursday. My daughter is not guilty. My wife's not guilty. And then I can finally look at myself. I'm not guilty. He's the intruder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What do you make of that doctor?

ABLOW: Well, what I make of it is what I've made of speaking with other families that have encountered difficult times and perceived themselves to have been violated by violent people.

Basically, this father is only now coming to the realization that when his daughter was essentially taken from her home as a 13-year-old and taken across state lines and became the child, almost child bride of John Karr that although he may have been confused, although he may not have followed to the Nth degree every possible avenue to get her back, and maybe he did, but he felt guilty about it.

He felt he hadn't been able to protect her to the degree he wished -- to the degree that he wished he had. But the realization he's coming to now is that he was dealing with a very manipulative person and that when interacting with a person like he believes his ex-son-in-law was that he didn't have the chance really to do what he wanted to do for his daughter. They've all been victimized in his mind.

KING: Beware the controller.

We'll be right back with Dr. Keith Ablow, Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, and Jean Casarez and we'll be including your phone calls.

And the Project Runway group at the bottom of the hour.

And, Bill Maher on Monday; don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky, another excerpt from Dr. Ablow's interview. Quientana talks about believing that her husband drugged her. Does that seem significant to you with regard to him being violent?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think it's very significant because as we all know Mr. Karr claimed that he drugged JonBenet. What's interesting is that it contradicts the autopsy report. The autopsy report had indicated that JonBenet did not have any drugs.

However, you have to understand what that means. The toxicologists normally screen for drugs of abuse. They're monitoring things like opiates and hallucinogens and other types of highly abused illicit drugs. If this individual, if John Mark Karr used a drug like GHB or Rohypnol or even something like chloroform most likely it would not have been picked up and the report would have been negative. So, you know, just because it says that there were no drugs in her body really doesn't mean that he did not drug her.

KING: Let's take a call, Fort Worth, Texas, hello.

CALLER FROM FORT WORTH, TEXAS: Yes.

KING: Go ahead.

CALLER: My question -- yes, my question is to the parents of the first wife.

KING: They're not here.

CALLER: Oh, okay, well that was my...

KING: OK, I'm sorry.

Jean, what's the status of the DNA testing in connection with Mr. Karr?

CASAREZ: Well the defense, public defender filed a motion several hours ago saying that they are asking for no DNA or forensic testing to be done on Mr. Karr until they have their appearance in court on the issue. And, if any DNA evidence testing has been done, they are saying that it was not done in accordance with the court of law.

They are also saying, this is very interesting, Larry, that if there is any forensic evidence left to be tested from the body of JonBenet Ramsey they are asking that they can have some of that evidence so they, themselves, the defense can test it.

And if, in fact, there is not enough for them to test it, I know from past experience what they're going to ask to do is to be present when the prosecution does the testing and have their own tester in there at the same time.

KING: Jean, in truth, if they can't link the DNA are they dead in the water?

CASAREZ: Not necessarily because I think the prosecution could say that the DNA is contaminated or it hasn't been preserved well or there is some reason why you go to other evidence. Yes, it would be a huge blow but I don't necessarily think that this case wouldn't proceed if they didn't have the DNA ducks all lined in a row.

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky, it's known that Dr. Henry Lee, another frequent guest on this show, found DNA on newly -- the newly purchased girl's underwear, tested right after the packaging. Do you think that fact may leave a misleading impression on the public?

KOBILINSKY: I think so actually, Larry. Let me explain why. When you take a garment, a brand new garment, you un-package it, you open it up, put it down on your laboratory bench and you look for the presence of DNA from its manufacturer.

What you do is you take a scalpel or a razor blade and you scrape the entire garment, the front, the back, the inside, the outside, so you're taking the entire area and then you take all of those scrapings and you isolate DNA. And, apparently Dr. Lee found the presence of some DNA.

That is a very far cry from looking at the panties of JonBenet which had a discreet little droplet of blood and from that droplet they were able to isolate DNA and we now know that it is from a nail. It is not related to any member of the Ramsey family and therefore it's likely that it comes from the perpetrator, the intruder.

KING: Dr. Ablow, Karr's ex-wife, Lara (ph), and his brother Nate both say they're virtually certain he was with the family during Christmas, 1996. If they're right, he didn't do it, right?

ABLOW: Well, if they're right, he didn't do it and that's just one of the facts that doesn't line up with a perfect story. I mean I'm a psychiatrist. I'm a storyteller. In essence I try to find out a storyline that makes sense to explain the events at hand.

There are so many pieces to this puzzle that don't line up. Why does a person who is a sexual perpetrator, as is alleged, leave a ransom note? What would the interest of that person be in exacting ransom from the Ramseys?

Why is it that we don't have an explanation as to how this man did get in the house? Why can't we place him in Colorado yet? Why does his family seem to line up solidly behind him?

Why, in fact, do we not have people coming forward, many victims, because after all if this is a guy who is a sexual predator, who kills, why don't we have more people now coming forward?

He was working in schools. He ran a daycare center. We're not hearing about John Karr crossing the line again and again. So, I remain quite skeptical as to whether he will be proven to be the guilty party.

And I keep going back to this lens to see the case through. This is a man who I believe is cut free from the tethers that bind him to his real life experience. I believe he's therefore free to enter dramas that are not his own. And, I believe in my heart right now that he's entered this one and that it's not his drama.

KING: We'll take a break. We'll be back with some more moments with Dr. Ablow and Dr. Kobilinsky and Jean Casarez and a few more phone calls; and then, Project Runway.

By the way, tomorrow night we'll repeat out interview with Sheryl Crow. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Dr. Ablow, before we take another call, do we know why the parents of the first wife didn't file any charges against John?

ABLOW: Well, it's my understanding that the father approached law enforcement, maybe in not the exact appropriate way that he felt as though he was rebuffed, that he was encouraged to wait this out. I think he was a little confused.

I think the situation was also confusing to him because he continued to communicate with his daughter and her husband. And I think that he feels that he was intimidated by that person, by John Karr, and that he was also unable to think clearly because of the very confusing kind of communication he was getting from him and his daughter.

KING: Let's take another call, Manito, Illinois, hello.

CALLER FROM MANITO, ILLINOIS: Yes. I wanted to ask if anybody knew how this John Karr was able to flip flop around the world and pay child support what his financial status was?

KING: Jean, do you know?

CASAREZ: Well, you know, it's interesting because in order to have the public defender represent him he has to be indigent. But, on the other hand, he has been a world traveler from Paris to South America to Far East. He drove a DeLorean car I think it was when he was in high school. And, as far as child support, we have heard nothing that he has supported his children.

KING: Springfield, Illinois, hello. I'm sorry, Springfield, Missouri, hello. Are you there? No Springfield, Missouri.

Dr. Ablow, the wife Lara and the brother Nate both say they are virtually certain about the Christmas thing. Isn't that exact? If they prove that, we asked it before, but I mean isn't if they prove it isn't this drop dead over?

ABLOW: Well, if they prove that to me in terms of a mystery you'd say, well that's the end of the mystery. This is a man who mental status wise needs a lot of help but he's not the killer.

And, you know, it does strain the imagination to wonder why a family would so solidly assert this when they don't seem to have had, you know, contact with him for long periods of time.

You know most good and decent people would say, "Look, if he killed somebody and a child, a little girl, well he's got to be held responsible." Now they are quite certain. They're saying there's no way. He was with us every Christmas.

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky, how much do you put into handwriting analysis if that comes up?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I'll tell you, Larry, handwriting analysis is accepted across the country in every court but being that said you have to understand it's not the same thing as DNA. And I think the reliability strongly depends on the capabilities of the expert of the analyst and what his training is and what kind of information he's looking at.

For example, looking at a yearbook that may have been 20, 25 years old, looking at that writing and comparing it to the ransom note, which was about nine and a half years old, you know, people's handwriting changes. It changes over time. So, you really have to have writing contemporaneous with the document that you're looking at.

But despite that, I have looked at these two documents myself. I have found a number of, a significant number of similarities with some very unusual letters and I've looked at the geometry and it seems to me I would say it's more likely than not that Mr. Karr was the author of that note. Again, I'm not a handwriting expert but I, you know, using various methods that's the way it looks to me.

KING: Jean, a lot of people are concerned even if he isn't the killer how was he loose?

CASAREZ: How was he loose? I'm sorry?

KING: Yes, with all that thing with children and all the thing why was he free on the streets?

CASAREZ: Sure. Sure and I think a lot of people are wondering that especially he was charged with five counts of possession of child pornography. Remember, he left this country. He fled this country so that's how he is loose at this point.

KING: Thank you all very much. We'll be continuing this, of course, and have all of you back, Dr. Keith Ablow, his program debuts on 9/11, Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, the forensic examiner, and Jean Casarez, the terrific journalist correspondent for Court TV news.

Project Runway and Heidi Klum are next. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Daniel is out. Mario, out. Star, you're out. Vanessa, you're out. (INAUDIBLE) you're out. Alexandra, you're out. Robert, you're out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: She's tough. Welcome back.

Project Runway is the Emmy-nominated reality show, the biggest hit ever in Bravo's history. It's the network's highest rated show ever. Here in L.A. is supermodel Heidi Klum. She's the host and executive producer of Project Runway. She judges on the show too.

With her is Tim Gunn. He mentors the shows competitors. He's also chairman of the fashion design department at Parson's, he new school for design in New York.

And, Nina Garcia, the Project Runway judge and fashion director for ELLE Magazine.

Before we get the inside dish from them, here's the lowdown on the show.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): Project Runway features a group of would-be fashion design stars competing for the career break of a lifetime, kind of like American Idol with sketch pads and sewing machines instead of songs. Each episode the competitors are given a design challenge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For this challenge, you will be sourcing recyclable materials to create an outfit of your choice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are going to use the clothes off your back to fabricate your design.

KING: But it's not enough to come up with a cool design idea. The competitors have to execute them. And when time is up, ready or not, it's off to the runway where models strut their stuff.

Then the judges weigh in. Sometimes it gets ugly. Designers can get needled. Garments are rips to shreds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's aesthetically not pleasing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean she to me looked like barefoot Appalachian Little Abner Barbie.

KING: Ultimately one competitor is declared the winner of the week and one competitor gets cut.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Robert, you're out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Unbelievable success. Heidi, the internationally known supermodel, host and executive producer of Bravo's Emmy-nominated Project Runway, she's also a judge on the show...

KING: Unbelievable success.

Heidi, the internationally known supermodel, host and executive producer of Bravo's emmy-nominated "Project Runway." She's also a judge on the show. How did it start?

HEIDI KLUM, SUPERMODEL: How did it start?

KING: Yes.

KLUM: Well, actually, it was an idea, or somewhat an idea that Harvey Weinstein brought to me.

KING: The Harvey Weinstein?

KLUM: The Harvey Weinstein.

KING: The movie Harvey Weinstein.

KLUM: Yes, the movie Harvey Weinstein. To me and Desiree Gruber, who is my publicist. And we're kind of a little team, Desiree and myself. We always think of different things. And he knows that we work in teams and we've basically together made my career happen. And so he thought he had a great idea on doing something about fashion, but he's like I don't really know anything about fashion. So...

KING: Did you like it right away?

KLUM: Well, he didn't really like know exactly 100 percent what the concept was going to be. He didn't have the challenges, ideas. So we kind of collaborated and kicked ideas around and put the show together and went to Bravo and sold the show on Bravo. And it happened to kind of have an effect, more and more people started watching it. And now it got to be a very successful show.

KING: That's the history.

KLUM: Yes.

KING: How'd they get you, Tim Gunn?

TIM GUNN, PROJECT RUNWAY: Well, I was originally approached to be a consultant. Our producers in addition to Heidi are the Project Greenlight people. And they also, like Harvey Weinstein, didn't really know a lot about fashion. So they were looking for someone in the industry. And I come from the education side of that. So we began that way. And at that time no one had this role as mentor in their vocabulary. It really grew very organically.

KING: So what do you do?

GUNN: What do I do? On the show or the rest of my life?

KING: What do you do. I know what you do with your life.

GUNN: I interact the designers very much the same way that I interact with my students at Parsons. I go to each one individually in the studio and ask them what their intentions are, what they're doing, and see how they're progressing. And I'm sort of the truth teller.

KING: And Nina Garcia, a regular judge, is also a fashion director for "Elle" magazine. How'd they get you?

NINA GARCIA, ELLE: Well, when we speak about fashion, we think about "Elle" magazine. It's the largest magazine in the world.

KING: Did Heidi call you?

GARCIA: Well, Bravo approached us. And we knew we were in very good company with Harvey and with Heidi, which we have a very long relationship with. And as fashion director of "Elle," it's really, you know, kind of what I do in my everyday life. I am seeking new designers. I am looking for trends. I am looking for what works for the readers at "Elle."

KING: Are you the bad girl?

GARCIA: They say. So they say, but I am not not.

KLUM: But we're very proud to have Nina Garcia and Michael Kors, especially when you start off a show and you don't really know how it is. People in the fashion industry, they tend to be -- they could be a little bit snobby, let's say. Right? They want to like see first how it's going to go, you know, because reality television is not always the coolest thing to do. So we were very proud that we have "Elle" magazine, that we have Nina and Michael -- you know, big, big names in the industry to participate.

KING: Do you -- are you the decider, to quote the president? Are you the decider of you're out?

KLUM: No. Not on my own, no, no, no. We all -- you know, all the judges together.

KING: But you're the one who says it?

KLUM: I am the messenger. I don't get more votage than the other ones.

KING: Do you get some macabre pleasure out of saying it?

KLUM: I don't. No. I mean, it is my part, and I have to tell them that they're going. I always feel bad for them because for them it is a dream to be there, they want to be designers. For them it's a huge opportunity. I always think, you know, it is already a huge opportunity to be seen by so many people, you can show the talent that you have, and that's already a big success I think.

KING: What, Tim, is the public's fascination, do you think, with a subject that you would think is rather inside?

GUNN: Well, it's a wonderful question. And it's one that we were asking ourselves when we began the show. Fashion is so fully embedded in our culture today that there are mythologies about it. And if anything, this show demystifies much of that and really makes fashion very, very accessible to the public at large.

KING: Like it's everywhere, right? An automobile is a fashion statement.

GUNN: Indeed. Absolutely.

KING: The way a building looks is kind of a fashion statement. GUNN: It is. Quality, taste, and style.

KING: Are you surprised at its success, Nina?

GARCIA: No, I'm not. Because it's really about the democratization of fashion. It's now available to everybody. You can see shows minutes after they happen in Milan, Paris, and New York. So it's really -- it's become more democratized.

Everybody has -- everybody can have an opinion in fashion too. And I think designers are really creative, fascinating people that make for very good TV.

KLUM: Yes.

KING: What's more important, heidi, the girl or the dress?

KLUM: Both. It is definitely a mixture of both, I think. I mean, if you have an awful dress, I don't think -- it could be the best model. It's very hard to pull that off. But I think if you have a good combination, you know, it helps a lot, I think. yes.

KING: Like the camera and the cameraman?

KLUM: Yes. Absolutely. You know, you can be a good model and you have someone that just shoots you from the wrong angles, you know, then you don't have a good picture. I mean, the collaboration is what makes it amazing.

KING: Why is Heidi a great model, Tim?

GUNN: Heidi, because Heidi can wear anything. We could take...

KING: Yeah, but she's not a "Vogue" toothpick.

GUNN: But she's a fabulously stunning woman with an incredible figure. And she can wear anything, absolutely anything. I tease Heidi...

KLUM: He's got a good, too (ph). Did you see us? We're on the cover of "Entertainment Weekly" right now.

GUNN: We look great together.

KING: Yes. I will show it to you.

KLUM: Can you believe it? We're very excited. And look how handsome you look, Tim.

GUNN: Well, you're kind.

KLUM: See, he says I'm good, you know, in front of the camera. Check him out.

KING: Why, Nina, why is Heidi so important to "Elle?" GARCIA: She's fantastic. What makes Heidi an amazing model is her energy. She's got incredible energy, and that really comes across in camera. And she's done some incredible covers for us. She did a cover -- I mean, incredible. Very sexy. Everything that "Elle" is about: sexy, good-looking, free. She's...

KING: We will take a break and be back with more about "Project Runway." We'll also be taking your phone calls. And we'll meet a previous winner right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUNN: The audition process is exhausting. And when you've been doing it for a while, you get very good at knowing when someone isn't right and getting them out of there quickly.

Come forward -- but I'm going to tell you right now, don't even hang up your clothes, you're just not ready yet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

GUNN: OK?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

GUNN: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I have are my sketches.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No clothes?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have any garments with me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just so you know, I had no idea what a picture portfolio was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really?

UNIDENIFIED FEMALE: Did you make your clothes you're wearing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, actually, I did not.

GUNN: I'm going to tell you right now, it's not going to work.

I'm not comfortable about this. We're going to pass. OK?

I just said no to this yesterday.

I'm sorry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I worked in porn for an online sex web site.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, your hair.

None of this thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to get you till I'm gone (ph).

GUNN: Don't shoot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I automatically win.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a winner. I'm so (EXPLETIVE DELETED) happy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Welcome back. And joining us in New York is Jay McCarroll. There you see his smiling face. The winner of season one of project runway. His website is Jaymccarroll.com. He'll be showing his collection in September at New York's famed Fashion Week in Bryant Park. Were you shocked you won, Jay?

JAY MCCARROLL, SEASON ONE WINNER: I kind of was shocked, yes. I was just assuming that Karason, the girl I was battling the whole show, was going to take it in the end. But somehow I squeezed by.

KING: What's it done to your life?

MCCARROLL: Well, I get stopped by busloads of girls from Nebraska now to get their picture taken with me. And it's really kind of afforded me a massive opportunity in exposure, notoriety, to get noticed all over. So that's great.

KING: One of the projects you turned down was mentorship with a major fashion firm. Why?

MCCARROLL: At the time I was meeting with them it just wasn't the right timing for me. So they were perfectly nice people, and it was a great, great opportunity that they were offering me, but at the time it just wasn't right.

KING: The show's taped in advance. What was it like watching yourself?

MCCARROLL: Oh, awful. You never know what you look like from the back or, in my particular case, I have a very small mouth. So I didn't really notice that, and I didn't realize how flat my butt was. Yes.

KING: Did you like all the judges?

MCCARROLL: Oh, yes. Most definitely. Loved Nina Garcia. Yes.

KING: She's right here. What makes him special, Nina?

GARCIA: He doesn't borrow any ideas. Everything you see is Jay McCarroll, 100 percent.

KING: How good is he, Tim?

GUNN: He is extraordinary.

KING: Is he going to be a major figure?

GUNN: I believe jay will be, yes. I honestly do.

GARCIA: That's really nice. Really nice of you.

GUNN: And I'm thrilled about Jay's show.

KING: Would you wear his clothes, Heidi?

KLUM: I do want to. I actually have a few jeans that he's made for me and hoodies. He does like very great, great street casual wear. And he has already like a very special Jay McCarroll thing. He makes these round, how do you call these round stickers that are everywhere?

MCCARROLL: They're just like targets kind of. Circles.

KLUM: Yes. And you can always tell straight-away that is a Jay McCarroll thing. That's his signature thing.

KING: Jay, what advice would you give to a competitor on this show?

MCCARROLL: Oh, know who you are as an individual first and then know who you are as a designer. And usually those two are pretty synonymous with each other. So you just have to be strong. It's television so people are going to pick you apart and just be strong.

KING: Jay, good luck. We'll be looking for the McCarroll label.

MCCARROLL: Yes, yes. Thank you so much.

KING: Jay McCarroll, winner of year one. We'll meet winner of year two in the next segment. The season three had a scandal, however. For the first time a competitor was kicked off for breaking the rules. Let's take a look and then we'll ask about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUNN: One of the absolute no-nos is no fashion how-to books. None of any kind.

It's definitely an issue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GUNN: And the other is your departure. And accordingly, we're going to have to ask you to leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't expect this. GUNN: We need you to get your stuff together tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GUNN: And you'll leave tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What was that all about, Tim?

GUNN: Well, the designers, when they arrive for Project Runway and our 32 days of taping, are told that they must turn in any books that can aid them in the execution of the challenges, and that includes pattern books, fashion books, even fashion magazines. And we had a call for these materials, and Keith concealed them. We at no time accused Keith of using the materials, but he was in possession of them, and that was strictly against the rules.

KING: That's like going to Las Vegas and counting cards?

GUNN: Yes, exactly.

KING: It was like a cheat sheet?

GUNN: Yes.

KING: But it didn't make him a better designer?

GUNN: No. And what made all of us so absolutely ill is that Keith is an incredibly talented designer and he didn't need these materials.

KLUM: It was sad to see him go so early because we really liked what he did and we really believed in that he can do it. It's just not fair to the other designers when you do have something in your possession that you're not supposed to have.

GUNN: Precisely. It wasn't fair to the other designers.

KLUM: It's not fair.

KING: We're going to take a break. When we come back, we'll meet the Vietnamese immigrant who took the top spot last season. How strutting her stuff on Project Runway helped her achieve the American dream. Fabulous show, good show. We're having a good time. We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quack, quack, quack, quack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have a strategy because you won't shut up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not funny. It's not funny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me it looks like a gay old party dress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I grew up white trash. Spent my whole life in the trash can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who asked you to open your mouth that way? Why don't you put some Harry Winstons up your nose?

MICHAEL KNIGHT, CONTESTANT: Oh, damn. Santino, whooo.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: And Anderson Cooper joins us. He will host "AC 360" at the top of the hour. Before we get back with our guests, what's up, Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, here comes Ernesto. Forecasters at the National Hurricane Center upgrading her to a tropical storm today. And you won't believe this. It might be heading to the Gulf of Mexico with New Orleans in its sights. We'll give you the details, including a storm bulletin from the Hurricane Center, we're expecting over the next hour.

Plus the latest on the John Karr/JonBenet Ramsey case. A new gag order and a court date for John Karr. We'll have details. And those deadly cluster bombs in Lebanon. Some are saying that Israel broke a military contract with America by using the weapons at all. We'll have all that and more, Larry, at the top of the hour.

KING: Thanks. That's Anderson Cooper coming up at 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific. Right now we're going to meet the winner of year two of Project Runway. let's see a little bit about Chloe Dao.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KLUM: Chloe, congratulations. You are the winner of Project Runway.

CHLOE DAO, SEASON TWO WINNER: No way.

KLUM: Yes, we have a winner. Congratulations.

DAO: I am excited that I won. I am the winner of Project Runway. Oh, my god. I'm a real designer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Chloe Dao. Are you a Vietnamese immigrant?

DAO: Yes, I am.

KING: When did you come to the United States?

DAO: I was born in Laos. Some people are confused about that. I came to the United States in 1979, when I was 8 years old.

KING: Why fashion?

DAO: Why not? I mean, you know, my parent came to, you know, from Laos for me to have the American dream, and fashion definitely doesn't exist in Laos back then. And I saw CNN, Elsa Klinch, My First Fashion.

KING: Elsa Klinch.

DAO: I love her. So, that was my first insight into fashion and the world of fashion. I just got hooked on it when I saw it.

KING: Your family had a rough time getting over here, right?

DAO: I did. We were in, escaped from Laos, and we were in a refugee camp and then we got caught escaping. Then we were in family prison for, I think, ten days. And, you know, there's a whole long story I can tell you about it, but, yes, it was a hard time, but we're, you know, and I'm living the American dream, so.

KING: You sure are. We have an e-mail question from Patrick of Plymouth, Michigan for you.

KING: You sure are.

We have an e-mail question from Patrick of Plymouth, Michigan for you.

DAO: OK.

KING: What advice can you give to a young fashion designer who want to open up their own successful boutique like you have?

DAO: Work hard and understand the business before opening it. I mean, I definitely did my time in New York. I was a buyer. I did sales. I was a production manager. I was a design assistant. I did everything before I opened my own boutique just to understand the whole business end of it.

KING: How good is she, Nina?

GARCIA: She's great. Chloe has a great deal of creativity, but she can -- she also has the practicality. And she's extremely professional and tenacious.

KING: In what area will her fashion go? Will it be a lot of women's? Men's?

GARCIA: Women's, absolutely. Women's. Although she won one of the challenges, which was to construct a men's wear.

DAO: First time. KLUM: And she did -- right, Chloe? For the first time you made a suit. It was impeccable. She's a great technician. She has a lot of style.

KING: Wow. And how do you rate her, Tim?

GUNN: I rate her A-plus plus plus. And one of the things that I love about Chloe and what she's achieving is that she's saying you don't have to be in New York to make it in fashion, you can be in Houston, Texas and you can have a huge impact. And she's having that impact.

KING: Heidi, how do you rate her?

KLUM: How do I rate her? I think she has a lot of style. I think she's very classy and she's a great technician. I mean, she's done amazing things. She's won a few challenges on the show.

KING: What's your goal, Chloe?

DAO: My goal is definitely have Chloe Dao label everywhere. You know, slowly. It's like I'm going to do on the show, suddenly I'm the winner and people didn't expect me. I was the underdog. The goal is, you know, to be a fashion designer and to be everywhere. But slowly and to do it, you know, surely with a good foundation.

KING: Thanks, dear. Good luck and congratulations.

DAO: Thank you.

KING: Chloe Dao, the winner of season two. Season three is now in progress, right?

KLUM: Yes.

KING: And we'll be right back with our remaining moments. And we'll take a look at what's coming up on "Project Runway."

DAO: Thank you.

KING: Bye, Chloe! Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I swear to god, I don't care if I go out and I make something I really love. Than they just didn't get it or whatever. But like putting out the ugliest dress everywhere, like oh. I'm going to go out like this?

I made the ugliest garment I've ever made in my life for probably one of the most difficult people I've ever had to work with. I knew that I wasn't going to be making anything for Angela's mom, and that was making me really happy.

I climbed quite a mountain to make quite an accomplishment to send something like that down the runway and still be here. (END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said you really wanted to get me the new iPod that hasn't come out yet but he got me the iPod Shuffle. Because I've been using a CD player with headphones for so long.

UNIDENTIIFED MALE: Are you freaking kidding me? shut up. You should be pretty and seen and not open your life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was a kid, I was always very satisfied. I'm naturally a brunette, so...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amanda, I can't take on your issues from childhood. I'm sorry.

As soon as she walked out of the room, we were like...

Oh, I thought I was going to lose my mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're going to show you now some of the people still in competion in the third year of "Project Runway." We're going to look at Kane, who won the challenge to design a pageant gown for Miss USA. We're going to see Kane? We haven't seen Kane. That's Kane, right? Excitable person.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KANE: I am co-owner of a prom pageant boutique in Norman, Oklahoma. Like my favorite person is Dolly Parton. And like I will just...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: OK. I keep hearing sound, although they say there's no sound.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He might as well be German. You know what I mean? He likes it glitzy and blingy just like I do.

KING: Where's Laura?

Laura hasn't won a challenge yet, although the judges have praised her impeccable construction. I don't see Laura. Is that Laura?

KLUM: Yes.

KING: Moving right along. How's she going to do?

KLUM: She makes very chic, very, very elegant clothes. I mean, she herself on the runway is always in the most elegant dresses. It's amazing. She has five children, and she's so put together. It's pretty unbelievable.

GUNN: She's an incredible technician.

KLUM: Yes. She's an architect. And she just kind of always had the heart for fashion. She always wanted to create fashion. So she's never done anything like this before, apart from, you know, at home kind of thing.

KING: And we also have Michael, who has won -- Michael's won back-to-back challenges, first for creating an updated outfit in the style of fashion icon Pam Grier, and then for the outfit he created from recycled materials.

KLUM: Yes. Michael is also a great designer. I mean, we always are surprised every time, no? With what he does.

GUNN: Yes.

KLUM: It's always something different. And he explains it very well.

GUNN: It's very thoughtful.

GARCIA: Very thoughtful.

KLUM: It's not just something thrown together. He really is a very talented designer also.

KING: And a little excitable too.

KLUM: We've got a really good batch of designers this year.

KING: Yes?

KLUM: Yes.

KING: It's tough to pick a winner when they're all this good, right?

KLUM: It is. Towards the end it gets really hard.

KING: And now we have Uli (ph).

KLUM: Ya. Uli's ens Deutscheland (ph).

KING: You do that good.

KLUM: I know. I'm really southern. I always pretend I'm German. She makes beautiful prints, dresses.

KING: Oh, yes.

KLUM: She has a lot of good feeling for colors and prints. She's also a great designer. GUNN: It's a Very, very strong group this year. Very strong.

KING: And finally, Vincent.

GUNN: Hmm.

KING: How's he doing?

KLUM: He's doing very good too. You know, sometimes people underestimate him. And he really comes up sometimes out of the woodworks with something amazing. And people were not counting on him for that season, but he also is a very, very good designer.

KING: Going to be a tough year to pick a winner?

KLUM: Very hard.

KING: Let's get a quick call in. Los Angeles, hello.

CALLER: Hi. How are you guys doing?

KING: Hi. What's your question?

CALLER: We love the show.

But my question is I wanted to find out if you guys were going to be using more plus-size models in the future. And I wanted to see -- get a reaction from a letter that Kathy Najimy (ph) wrote to Bravo executive Andy Cohen where you guys made comments in regard to Alison's designs saying that the model was (INAUDIBLE) and Heidi referred to her as plus sized.

KING: I don't know where you're going with this question, dear, but we're running out of time. Do you get the gist of it?

GUNN: Yes. Should we start? I'm happy to start.

KING: We have 30 seconds.

GUNN: I have to say I regret using the ward zaftig (ph), but Allison's model compared to our 0 size models and our 2 size models was simply larger. And for the design that Alison was creating, it need frankly a smaller model.

KLUM: I think, also, people should not get upset about the word plus sized model, which is a term in the fashion industry.

Now, I definitely am...

KING: Because you're pregnant.

KLUM: Because I'm pregnant. And I think you should celebrate it. And I think it's something beautiful.

KING: Are there pregnant models?

KLUM: I don't know about pregnant models. But years ago there were no plus sized models, but now there are.

GARCIA: Of course.

KING: All right. Throw me out.

KLUM: No, I can't.

No, you're in!

KING: Throw me out.

KLUM: You're not out. I can't say that.

KING: OK. Then say that. You're in.

KLUM: You're in, Larry.

KING: Ha ha ha -- Heidi.

Thank you guys, that's great.

"Project Runway," biggest hit in the history of Bravo. Now in it's third season.

Tomorrow night, Sheryl Crow, Monday night, Bill Maher on LARRY KING LIVE.

Right now, let's head to New York.

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