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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Highlights of JonBenet Ramsey Case
Aired August 27, 2006 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST (voice-over): Tonight what does JonBenet Ramsey father think about the suspect in her daughter's murder? See the exclusive first interview since the arrest with John Ramsey's long- time attorney. Plus another exclusive, the man who first led authorities to the suspect after e-mailing with him for years. And what's behind those chilling phone tapes said to be the suspect talking about JonBenet? Hear from the woman who made them. All that and a lot more in the best of our coverage of the JonBenet murder suspect next on this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE.
KING: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. This is a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. We're looking back at our highlights of the huge news week in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. You'll hear from all the major players starting with our exclusive interview with Lin Wood, the long-time attorney for JonBenet's parents, in his first interview on how her dad is coping with the news of suspects, John Mark Karr's arrest, and the media circus and more. Watch.
What has been John's reaction to all this, Lin?
LIN WOOD, RAMSEY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, good evening, Larry.
John Ramsey wants what Mary Lacy, the district attorney in Boulder wants, what I think many millions of Americans want. He wants the person who brutally murdered his daughter to be brought to justice. He does not know whether Mr. Karr is guilty of that crime. He does not know the evidence upon which the district attorney is relying on making the arrest of Mr. Karr.
I think his reaction can be summed up as -- as being one of hope. He has held the belief since December of 2002, when Mary Lacy took over the jurisdiction of this case that she held out real promise for solving the crime. Don't know whether it's been solved yet. Only time will tell.
John wants the public to be patient, not to rush to judgment, and not to engage in the type of speculation and rumor and gossip and hearsay against this man that unfortunately people engaged in with respect to him and his wife and tragically even at times his son.
KING: Since he is, Lin, though a victim in this, isn't he entitled to some information from the prosecutor? WOOD: He is entitled to information from the prosecutor. And, I will tell you that he has been periodically informed by the district attorney's office over the years since 2002 about the status of the case. Patsy was informed during her lifetime. And, Mary Lacy called John around 10:00 in the morning last Wednesday and informed him that an arrest had, in fact, been made.
But I'll tell you one other thing about John Ramsey being a victim. Since the time of this event last week, John Ramsey has literally, at times, been a prisoner in his home because of the reporters and the cameras and the satellite trucks out in front of his home in Michigan. He had to sneak out and to take his son back to school last Friday. And then when he got to the college all of a sudden the reporters and the cameramen are stalking both John and his son Burke and that makes him a victim again of what I think is a media circus and a media frenzy at a time when his privacy should be respected, at a time when he's still trying to deal with the death of his wife and, Burke Ramsey, a young man is trying to deal with the death of his mother.
KING: Was Patsy told something before she died that there were leads or they were working close?
WOOD: Well, as you know, I have refrained from making any comment about the substance of what I might know or what the Ramseys might know about this individual.
But, I did see a report last week that falsely stated that Patsy had received e-mails directly from Mr. Karr and that she had turned those e-mails over to the authorities in Boulder. I felt an obligation to correct that misimpression because I didn't want someone to think that Patsy instigated in any way the investigation of Mr. Karr.
Last May, the Boulder authorities did give information to John and Patsy that they had developed about what they considered to be a very promising lead. They asked John and Patsy if they would cooperate in any effort to identify the individual and to complete the investigation and John and Patsy quickly said yes. They pledged their 100 percent cooperation as they always have to District Attorney Lacy.
KING: We have an e-mail question for you, Lin, from Samantha of Lincolnton, North Carolina. "Mr. Wood, what does the Ramsey family think about the treatment that John Mark Karr is getting thus far? For example, the wine, beer, pate, warm towels, blanket, business class window seat, silk shirt, et cetera?"
WOOD: You know, I think John Ramsey, and I haven't asked him that specific question but I -- but I feel fairly confident from the discussions we've had over the last several days that John's reaction to that information would be similar to mine.
I don't think John is concerned about such matters. I think John Ramsey, as I, and I think many other objective Americans, I think what we would like to know is where Mr. Karr was in December of 1996. And we'd like to know the evidence that links him somehow to this crime that has resulted in his arrest.
But, John Ramsey is not going to rush out and try to speculate on those answers. John is going to wait and let the system of law progress in an orderly fashion and let that evidence be presented by the Boulder district attorney in a court of law and not have this gentleman tried in the court of public opinion.
I do think, and I will add this from my own perspective, John Ramsey and I both have said that we give this man the presumption of innocence. He's entitled to it. Sadly for too many years it wasn't given to my clients. It wasn't given to John Ramsey.
But what I saw on the cameras with respect to Mr. Karr certainly would have been a tragedy of justice had it occurred in the United States of America. We don't parade people in front of cameras and I think it's sad about what happened to this man, even though -- even though he is in some fashion apparently linked through some information to the JonBenet Ramsey case. It still should not be done even to him.
KING: As a lawyer, Lin, isn't DNA going to make it obvious one way or the other?
WOOD: I don't know that it's 100 percent conclusive, Larry, but I have always believed and I believe that District Attorney Lacy concurs that this is, in fact, in large part a DNA case.
There's been a lot of speculation. I know that a lot of people reference Dr. Henry Lee talking about the DNA not being of good quality. Dr. Lee was not involved in the investigation in 1999 when a second spot of blood found in JonBenet's underwear was tested.
And from that blood spot a DNA sample was extracted that was tested. It was consistent with other DNA that had been found on her body and it was of such quality that Mary Lacy was able to get it certified in late 2003 and entered into the FBI national database.
So, there is strong DNA evidence in this case. It's not Ramsey DNA. I believe it's the DNA of the killer. It remains to be seen what information we'll learn with respect to Mr. Karr or any other individual regarding the DNA. We just know it's not the DNA of the Ramseys.
KING: When we return, another exclusive, the first in-depth interview with the man who e-mailed with the suspect for four years before leading authorities to him. That's when LARRY KING LIVE returns.
KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE and our highlights of this big week in the JonBenet Ramsey murder. Last Monday the man who first led authorities to the suspect gave me his first in depth TV interview. Here he is, University of Colorado journalism professor Dr. Michael Tracey, who e-mail online with John Mark Karr for four years. Watch.
How did this e-mail thing start?
PROFESSOR MICHAEL TRACEY, E-MAILED WITH PERSON BELIEVED TO BE JOHN KARR: Well, Larry, you know and I told your producers that I'm not going to talk directly about Mr. Karr or the e-mails, the contents and so on.
It's publicly known now that the correspondence began about four years ago and it was initiated after a friend of mine, Mike Samuel (ph), who had a little press for himself the other day, met the person who turned out to be Mr. Karr in Paris.
But, above and beyond that, I really don't want to say anything about Mr. Karr or the e-mails and for a very specific reason. And, I was listening to Lin and John Ramsey. You know, he really does have a right to be presumed innocent.
There's a kind of curious kind of art to this that we have a situation where John Ramsey himself is sort of saying he deserves to be presumed innocent. And John Ramsey more than any other person on the planet knows what it's like to be presumed guilty because the Ramsey's from the get-go from the very, very beginning, almost the first, second day after she was killed basically they -- they were the only objects of suspicion. And I think and that was wrong and it would be wrong to do the same thing to Mr. Karr.
KING: Without presuming it and this program has never presumed guilt ever.
TRACEY: I know, which is why I'm here by the way.
KING: Never presumed guilt. I believe in what the Constitution -- I believe in the presumption of innocence. Anybody is innocent until they're proven guilty, maybe until the appeal is heard even if they've been found guilty.
Why did you wait so long to turn whatever information you had over to authorities?
KING: I'm not asking you what he said.
TRACEY: ...again, I'm not going to discuss when I specifically informed law enforcement. It's been made public that something occurred in May that led to a series of actions essentially that led to the investigation. It's become an iconic story.
The rate (INAUDIBLE) below the age of 12 murdered in America in the same year that JonBenet was murdered, you heard of one. It had all the classic tabloid vibes. It had sex. It has violence. It had the pageant videos and so on. But what troubles me and what I refuse to do in relation to Mr. Karr in terms of talking about him, talking about our exchanges, talking about the e-mails, and again it's been made public there are hundreds and what I refuse to do is to engage that because to do that would be to -- would be for me to take part in doing something to him that was done to John and Patsy, who I happen to believe by the way are utterly innocent of hurting the child.
KING: You've always thought that.
TRACEY: I've always -- well not always but for a long time now.
KING: All right then in fairness to him and his presumption of innocence how would you characterize him? Everyone is interested in him as a human being. He's become a subject of this. You've e-mailed with him. What do you make of him?
TRACEY: Good try, Larry. I really...
KING: I'm not asking about whether he killed (INAUDIBLE). Who is he?
TRACEY: No, no because, you know what, then I'm talking about his character and my sense of it. That's not my role anymore. It's no longer my problem. I will say, you know, clearly it will emerge at some point and my own sense of this will also emerge.
It is now -- we really have to back off. I know it's not going to happen. But the proper thing to do would be for the media, the culture, the society to back off to not obsess on this and to give Mr. Karr his day in court if it goes that far and to let the judicial process take its path and either he'll be found guilty or he'll be found innocent.
But the system has to be allowed to work. I'm utterly convinced that when the full story is told and watching the media coverage it's clear, I mean it's amazing how much television people can make on so little. I mean they're fixated on it.
That press conference in Thailand was outrageous, I agree, I mean utterly, utterly outrageous. It should never have happened. He should never have been allowed to talk in the way he was talking. Someone should have said "Shut up." He has rights.
KING: I'm sure his lawyers will tell him to be quiet.
TRACEY: Well, I mean I'm sure the -- Mark Spray who was the gentleman whispering into his ear actually was probably saying "You might want to shut up." So, I'm going to say nothing about this. What I will say is I think when the full story is told whatever the results it will be quite clear that Mary Lacy took an extraordinarily courageous decision and Tom Bennett (ph)...
KING: In arresting him?
TRACEY: In initiating the investigation and John Bennett undertook an investigation with extraordinary skill and professionalism that -- and I'm saying that whatever happens, whether guilt or innocent. But Mr. Karr himself for me is off the table because it would be wrong. It would be doing to him what was done to John Ramsey.
KING: Except because since he has become a person of interest...
KING: ...you can tell us certainly do you like him? What do you think of him? That's got nothing to do with murder.
TRACEY: I'm not going to express any view on whether I like him or not or what I think about him or what my sense because that's not my role. I mean I'd be -- this really happened because I'm interested in the whole Internet culture but clearly it went beyond that. But I'm simply...
KING: Do you think he's going to get a fair trial if he's tried?
TRACEY: I hope so but the problem -- the problem is that, I mean I saw the cover of the "New York Post." I think it was the photo of him in this -- in this -- in the business class seat and it said "Snake on the Plane." That is, I mean you know that is simply in human terms, in constitutional terms, it is wrong.
And I don't know why -- why we as a society both fixate on these kinds of cases and then feel that in order to sell papers, in order to sell -- to put ratings on -- on programs that we feel totally willy- nilly. We can trash people's rights. We can trash their character. We can trash who they are and it's like a game. It's like a sport, like a blood sport. And I think that's wrong. That is not how the system is supposed to be.
KING: More of my interview with Professor Michael Tracey when this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE returns. Don't go away.
KING: We have a couple of e-mails for you. How did Professor
Tracey -- this is from Renee in Bradenton, Florida. "How did Professor Tracey lure Karr into continuing an online relationship?" That's a fair question. As a journalist, you will tell.
TRACEY: Lure is a very strong word.
KING: You would tell your journalism students in this position, ask that question. How?
TRACEY: I think that's -- get a different profession. I'm not going to comment on how I dealt with him. You know, as you know...
KING: ...all right, who sent the first...
TRACEY: For -- the first contact was through him and that was way back four years...
KING: You to him?
TRACEY: No, the other way around.
KING: Him to you.
TRACEY: But I'm not going to say anything about how I dealt with him. "Lure" is a very curious word to use in the context. But no, I'm not going to comment.
KING: It was the e-mailer's word.
KING: Nora in Westchester, Pennsylvania. "From what I read John Mark Karr sent lots of rather suspicious e-mails for quite some time, e-mails that at least should have raised suspicion that he was -- something wrong, a child predator if not the suspect in the Ramsey case. Why didn't Tracey report these to police earlier?" Why didn't you report it to police earlier? What was the motivation in waiting? He could have harmed someone else.
TRACEY: Again, again, it's this question of drawing me into talking about his e-mails and what (INAUDIBLE) -- I'm just not going to do that. He -- here's the problem I have. These people -- I know they're well meaning and I know people are fascinated by this case, and it has become a sort of iconic crime, of the most famous crime of the 20th century, possibly. And they want me to be here now and start to talk about a set of exchanges that are now part of a case, a capital case -- this is a death penalty case if ever there was. I don't believe in the death penalty, but it clearly is.
And so what they want me to do is to talk on -- with you, famous program about details in relation to someone who is facing possibly, possibly the death penalty. And that seems to be wrong. You were saying in the break something I thought is extremely interesting. I think you need to be decolonized. I think you need to adopt more British law. Because a lot of what happens...
KING: ...in Britain we couldn't comment.
TRACEY: In Britain the ability of the media to do the things they do would simply -- is much, much more restricted. And I think that's proper. Because if we abandon the idea that entertainment values, public obsession, public curiosity is more important than a very fundamental constitutional right to be presumed innocent, we have a very, very serious problem.
We have a misdirection of priorities. Simply fundamentally in human terms, in legal terms, in constitutional terms, it is fundamentally wrong. And I won't go there.
KING: But why does it prevent you from saying something nice? Why would that...
TRACEY: ... Because I'm...
KING: How in the world would that harm him?
TRACEY: Because Larry, because for example, you asked me what I thought of him, what my impression is. But I'm being an absolutist on this and I'm being an absolutist because I saw what happened to the Ramsey's, and I refuse -- I mean, you know, I spent the past 10 years, first critiquing the media coverage of this case and secondly trying to make the case that it seems to me the evidence overwhelmingly points at an intruder and away from John and Patsy. And of that, I'm utterly, 100 percent, totally convinced now. And I don't want to use what is clearly information I have to do anything to harm the process...
KING: When LARRY KING LIVE returns, more of my interview with Ramsey's attorney Lin Wood. What he thinks about Professor Tracey's e-mails with the suspect. And his reaction to some of the other week's other developments. Stay tuned.
KING: Welcome back to this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE with highlights of the huge week of news in the JonBenet Ramsey case.
KING: It's been reported that John Mark Karr tried to contact Patsy. Do you have any knowledge of such an effort?
WOOD: Well, I alluded to it in the first segment when I was referencing the fact that the authorities came out in May and spoke to John and Patsy. And there was, at that time, an indication that he may want to contact Patsy, either to meet her or to speak with her by telephone. She was asked that if it would advance the investigation would she cooperate, would she be willing to do so, and she indicated that she would be.
You have to see and know one thing, Larry, John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey and I, since 2002, have great confidence in the integrity and the professionalism of District Attorney Mary Lacey and the members of her staff. You know, when Charlie Brennan comes back on, ask him about Mary Lacey's reputation as a prosecutor...
KING: You'll be with him.
WOOD: Well, great. And he will tell you that anyone in Colorado that knows Mary Lacey knows that she is a consummate professional. That's why there have been no leaks in this case. And that's why she would not discuss any of the evidence in this case publicly.
And the people that she's surrounded herself with -- Tom Bennett, her chief investigator, he in fact has impeccable credentials, one of the best homicide investigators in that part of the country if not the nation. I don't know what information is contained in the arrest affidavit against Mr. Karr, but I do believe in the integrity and professionalism of the district attorney's office so that whatever they have moved on, whatever is the basis of their decision, I believe that at the end of the day it will be done for a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Whether that ultimately is to prosecute Mr. Karr or not, I know these people and I know that they are after a child killer and they are not after some publicity or headline in this case.
KING: And by the way, Patsy Ramsey died of ovarian cancer on June 24. A foundation has been established in her memory. If you want more information on that, it's the PatsyRamseyFoundation, all one word, patsyramseyfoundation.org. The web site includes artwork that Patsy created in the final months of her life. She was quite good with a brush, was she not?
WOOD: She was a painter and -- a beginning painter, but very creative. She was a talented person. And I know that everyone that knowed her -- that knew her and loved her, we all miss her very much.
KING: All right. What do you make overall of what Professor Tracey had to say? His position that we should not be discussing this at all.
WOOD: Well, look, I don't think we ought to decide issues of guilt or innocence in the court of public opinion. I think that we ought to respect our justice system and we ought to make those kinds of decisions and come to those conclusions in a court of law.
Inevitably it's going to be discussed. I've watched up close and personal for the last 10 years the media accusations and public discussions, accusations against my clients, from Richard Jewell to John and Patsy Ramsey to the attack on the reputation of a young girl in the Kobe Bryant case.
I don't think it's going to change. John Ramsey and I discussed just yesterday the fact that it's been 10 years since JonBenet's murder and the media coverage now is significantly more sensational, significantly worse in terms of its willingness to speculate and bottom feed, than it was 10 years ago. So no lesson has been learned in the last 10 years, if anything, things have deteriorated with respect to how the media covers these types of high-profile cases.
KING: When LARRY KING LIVE returns, more highlights of a huge week of news in the JonBenet Ramsey case.
KING: Welcome back to this special edition of LARRY KNG LIVE with highlights of a huge week of news in the JonBenet Ramsey case. Among our biggest guests was Wendy Hutchins who had been an informant in a 2001 investigation of the murder suspect and made some chilling tapes of what she says are phone conversations with the suspect about JonBenet. Watch.
Wendy Hutchens, an informant for the Sonoma County sheriff's office in a 2001 investigation into John Mark Karr, she gave authorities e-mails and tape-recorded conversations she says were with Karr. We'll hear portions of some of those tapes tonight.
With Wendy, her long-time friend A.J. Fardella; and, for the record, CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the tapes we'll be hearing. Mr. Fardella is a criminal investigator working with various government departments.
Wendy, when did you first have contact with John Mark Karr?
WENDY HUTCHENS, INFORMANT IN 2001 INVESTIGATION OF KARR: In March of 2001.
KING: What was the occasion?
HUTCHENS: It just so happened to be a matter of timing. I had gotten a hold of Richard Allen Davis to kind of clear up an incident that happened in my childhood. We lived in the same town.
KING: He killed?
HUTCHENS: I was...
HUTCHENS: Yes, he killed Polly Klaas and I was curious about something that happened to my babysitter and John Davis was the one that had the answer, so I happened to contact him at the same time that John Mark Karr was trying to contact him.
KING: And did you call John Mark Karr, he called you?
HUTCHENS: Well, we actually both met a woman by the name of Barbara Gale (ph) who runs a visiting death row inmates' Web site and she hooked us up.
KING: First impression?
HUTCHENS: Of John, originally from the e-mails he seemed to be honest in what he was saying and I agreed to talk to him on the phone and we talked the first time for almost three and a half hours. And, at the end of that conversation I realized that he was a very disturbed individual and that I needed to alert the authorities.
KING: Why was he talking to you?
HUTCHENS: He was hoping to get Richard Allen Davis to be his spokesman.
KING: His spokesman?
KING: The serial killer?
HUTCHENS: Yes. KING: I mean the killer of a young girl.
HUTCHENS: Yes. He thought it...
KING: Spokesman for what?
HUTCHENS: Well, he thought if he could get Richard Allen Davis to confess that he loved Polly Klaas and that's why he did what he did to her that then John Mark Karr could go around on talk shows and stuff and spread the word that we should forgive Richard Allen Davis and that these men aren't bad.
KING: When did you start taping him?
HUTCHENS: Well, I knew from past experiences that if I wanted anybody to believe my conversations with this man that I needed to have them on tape and I knew I needed if I wanted to use them in law -- against him in a court of law I needed law enforcement's help.
So, I contacted them immediately. They began an investigation and then we talked to the FBI and that's -- so I probably had maybe three or four conversations before we recorded.
A.J. FARDELLA, FRIEND OF WENDY HUTCHENS: That would be the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department.
KING: For a while they stayed out of this but now they have ascertained -- they have said that this is the case that the tapes are, in fact, the tapes.
FARDELLA: Yesterday the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department, Richard -- excuse me, Bob Giordano (ph) who is the head of their violent crimes unit put out a press release that acknowledged Wendy's involvement in the undercover work.
KING: Have you been involved in this from the start too?
FARDELLA: Only on a cursory level. I found out a little bit about it when it first happened in 2001 but Wendy realized that she was going to be a little overwhelmed with the media and I guess she ascertained that she thought I had the best skill set to help her out in this.
KING: You're long time friends.
FARDELLA: For a long, long time.
KING: And you're used to criminal investigations. FARDELLA: I work with various government agencies, mostly in the cyber crime area.
KING: All right, let's hear some of this. The man Wendy Hutchens says is John Mark Karr is talking about JonBenet Ramsey.
KING: Let's listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: JonBenet. God, what a powerful thing to just be along with that little girl, that doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in life and so unreal in death. She's just so alive. She's so alive. She's so alive. She's so alive. I mean, she just was wonderful.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KING: How did she come up? How did JonBenet Ramsey come up?
HUTCHENS: Well, we -- when I started to him and the detectives we realized that there was something wrong with him and so the detectives asked me to try to get him to talk about to give me specifics of a crime he had committed and so that they could tie him to something.
And they were frantically trying to connect things. And so, when I finally got him to give a name, when he said JonBenet that was the last name in the world I expected him to say.
KING: And that was five years ago.
KING: So, you've been sitting on this for five years. Did the Sonoma Police turn it over to Boulder County?
HUTCHENS: They notified Boulder County that he had this fascination with JonBenet.
KING: Did they coach you at all how to talk to him, how to draw things out?
HUTCHENS: Yes, they did. They asked me to pretend that I was interested in being a child molester as well and that I wanted to participate with him. One of the things we made -- I made him promise that he wouldn't do anything without me that I wanted to be with him the next time he touched a little girl. So, that was a way of trying to keep little girls safe while we were trying to get information out of him.
KING: And, Wendy, the guy sounds pretty creepy right?
HUTCHENS: Very creepy. KING: Why did you continue talking to him?
HUTCHENS: Because I know he -- there's not a doubt in my mind that he's hurt little girls and...
KING: Other little girls too?
HUTCHENS: Yes. Whether or not it's been JonBenet but the police can't -- you can't arrest somebody just for saying these things or even writing these things. You have to have evidence against them.
And the fact that he was an elementary school teacher working with our children and talking about different little girls in his class, I mean that was really unsettling. So, I kept talking to him like I said Detective Beau Martin (ph) and his partners were frantically trying to connect him to something.
KING: Did you come forward with this or did the Sonoma Police tell you to come forward with this?
FARDELLA: Actually, Wendy was the one that initiated the first contact with Sonoma Sheriff's Department.
KING: That was in 2001.
FARDELLA: That's correct.
KING: I'm talking about now, coming forward now.
FARDELLA: Actually, I heard the story in a voice mail where Wendy had called me and said, "Look at Channel 4. I'm going to be on the news. Remember what I was telling you five years ago. It's all true. Call me. I need to talk to you" and you know that took place.
KING: You're not happy about this are you, Wendy?
HUTCHENS: Oh, man, when I -- when they told me they made an arrest in the JonBenet case I jumped up out of my seat and was like, you, it has to be this guy, has to be this guy.
KING: You knew it right away.
HUTCHENS: I knew immediately.
KING: Let's hear another portion of the tape. We got one more coming too in the next segment. In this next excerpt, we hear the man, purportedly John Mark Karr, talking about sexual attraction to children.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: What it amounts to is, I think that most of us are capable of having any of those fantasies and it's hard for me to differentiate between what, what they mean, you know. Instead of thinking she's pretty, you start to think she's sexy. I guess at that point, you're probably having a sexual attraction to that child.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KING: Again, we are not saying that is John Mark Karr but the Sonoma County Police are. More on my interview with Wendy Hutchens when we come back and later famed forensic psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow (ph) who conducted a disturbing interview with John Mark Karr's first wife. Stick around.
KING: We're back with Wendy Hutchens, an informant for the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department who provided authorities with e- mail exchanges and tape recorded conversations she says were with the suspect, Mr. Karr, and her long time friend criminal investigator A.J. Fardella.
Let's hear one more excerpt. This next audio clip contains a reference to Polly Klaas, the Petaluma, California girl who was abducted from her home and murdered in 1993. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: Who else was I going to share that with? I've never driven by her house and said, there is Polly Klass' house. I want that because I want her. I want her. I mean I want her so bad.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KING: Pretty cryptic. What was the context of this?
HUTCHENS: He's talking about how pedophiles become obsessed with a neighborhood child and drive by and then look at the child, then look at her and become more and more obsessed that they want her. They want them until they want them so bad and their fantasies reach a point that they just snatch the child.
KING: Wasn't it kooky for you to talk to a guy like this?
HUTCHENS: It was really difficult. It was really difficult. I would cry for hours after our conversations and it was really hard. But, you know, I had to do everything possible to try to get this guy off the streets.
KING: When you finally saw what he looked like...
HUTCHENS: Yes, I was...
KING: ...what did you think?
HUTCHENS: He doesn't look scary at all. He was very professionally dressed and educated and just a pleasant, sweet man that you would trust to take your daughters home from school.
KING: You're a criminal investigator. We don't know the -- we're not going to presume guilt ever on this show. We're not going to presume anything or enter into conjecture. What's your read on this guy, A.J.?
FARDELLA: Well, you know, I've had a chance to listen to all the tapes several times and I have to say that, you know, in my work in criminal investigation I have to listen to a lot of slimy things but I've never had so much difficulty sitting through any kind of evidence as I have listening to this man say these things about this girl. And, I wouldn't be able to put out a guess about whether or not he's guilty in the JonBenet killing.
KING: Because he could be fantasizing.
FARDELLA: He could but anyone who listens to all of these tapes and listens to this man walks away without a doubt with the impression that he has done these things somewhere to more than one girl.
KING: Wendy, do you have concerns about your own safety during this?
HUTCHENS: Yes, I would be a liar if I said I didn't have some concerns.
KING: When was the last time you spoke to him?
HUTCHENS: That was five years ago when -- after he was arrested.
KING: Did he say he was going to call you back?
HUTCHENS: No. No, I don't know if he even knows that I tape recorded the conversations.
KING: Your name appears on 2002, 2001 legal documents involving him. Your name is beside the notation "Do not contact victim directly." What's that about? Were you a victim?
HUTCHENS: Well, they consider me a victim. They knew after he had been arrested and that he knew that I gave the e-mails over, so when they released him they put that because they were worried about him coming after me.
KING: In your reference, although not by name, in another 2001 legal document relating to the execution of a search warrant on John Mark Karr, a Napa County sheriff's detective says, "Karr claims he was e-mailing you because he thought you had assaulted a child and was trying to dupe you into a confession."
HUTCHENS: Right, he always had a backup plan for if any, you know, in case that so he would turn it around but the authorities were like, "He's mandated as a teacher to report such a thing and he had been e-mailing me for a month and hadn't contacted authorities."
KING: You have a Web site.
HUTCHENS: Oh, yes, I do.
HUTCHENS: We've been getting a lot of calls and from people.
FARDELLA: I'd like to address that, Larry. I mean really for Wendy it's been a long hard struggle, you know, for five years by no one's particular fault. We're not trying to affix any blame.
But what Wendy wants to do really is educate people about serial killers. And, according to the FBI there's over 100 of them in the United States responsible for eight to eleven deaths a day.
And, you know, when you think about, you know, I have a daughter which is one of the big reasons I agreed to help Wendy out with this after she showed me the evidence and we just want to get the word out to people about what to look for, about the experience that she had and hope that that helps people identify these people. And, on the Web site we're going to be changing it daily. We're just going to add content that Wendy has written about her experiences.
KING: Have you been in contact with Mark Klaas?
HUTCHENS: No, I haven't been.
KING: Never spoken to him?
HUTCHENS: No. I did contact Polly Klaas Foundation immediately the next day after speaking to Karr the first time.
KING: Because he runs that foundation.
FARDELLA: Right. We do have plans to talk to him. I think that we have the same kind of goals overall but he's naturally shied away from people that are in this kind of situation. But I think once he meets Wendy and he sees that we have the same kind of goals in mind that we probably would be able to work together. I think we forgot to say what the name of the Web site though, it's wendyhutchens.com.
KING: That's Wendy, two words?
FARDELLA: Yes, W-E-N-D-Y-H-U-T-C-H-E-N-S.com.
KING: What do you make of all this Wendy? What's your read back on all you've been through and sitting for five years and now this breaks?
HUTCHENS: I definitely think that God has had a hand in the timing of all of this and that it all came about according to his timing and that there's certain things that he wants people to be aware of and that hopefully I'll be able to spread those things.
KING: In 2001, did you start to think he hurt JonBenet?
HUTCHENS: Yes, I did. I tried very hard to get the Boulder authorities to come down and at least talk to him. I called there and sent e-mails and stuff. So, at least I was hoping that they'd come down and maybe hold him longer where we could see what other things he might have done.
FARDELLA: You know if there was a key point in the process here where things broke down I think it's two things and it's another one of Wendy's goals through the Web site and through our activities and that's going to be to change the laws.
I mean this man was arrested on five misdemeanor counts of child pornography. I mean to me what's a misdemeanor child pornography? Any child pornography in our opinion should be a felony.
FARDELLA: And a guy like this should be around in jail long enough that you can do an investigation and a thorough investigation. Just one more thing, Larry, you know there's new technology that's coming into the criminal investigative field because of 9/11. It's called interoperability where different agencies and different jurisdictions can trade information right away.
And one of the things we'd like to do is promote an awareness or even promote the government creating a system where an investigator looking at a child molester or looking at a potential serial killer can use this new interoperability to go out and search among different jurisdictions through places this person had been to similar crimes.
KING: Good idea. A.J. thanks very much.
FARDELLA: Thank you.
KING: Wendy, you're a gutsy lady.
HUTCHENS: Thank you. Thank you.
KING: When we come back strange revelations from John Mark Karr's former 13-year-old bride. See and hear for yourself what she told psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow next on LARRY KING LIVE.
KING: Welcome back as we look back at highlights of a really big week in JonBenet Ramsey news. Among our guests, the high profile forensic psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow, who spoke with the suspect's first wife and who has some fascinating insight of his own into the suspect and other details of the case.
Doctor, I understand you've taped an interview with John Mark Karr's first wife. Is it pronounced Quientana?
KEITH ABLOW, M.D., FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: That's correct I have.
KING: And her parents. How did that get set up?
ABLOW: That was set up through colleagues of mine who are journalists and conducted in New York City and we sat with them for about 30, 40 minutes and went through some very distressing details that they remember about their daughter's life and Quientana remembering it herself of being married as a child bride to John Karr.
KING: What impressions off the top did you come away with?
ABLOW: Well, first of all that these are good people who are trying to be courageous in sharing what are tremendously painful details of their daughter's life. I suppose one of the chief revelations that she shares with us is that she claims and she's a credible historian, I mean she doesn't seem to be fabricating in terms of the way in which she reports what she has to say.
She claims that during her marriage to John Karr that she believes herself to have been drugged repeatedly, going to sleep one day, waking up two days later, and being injured in private areas of her body that suggested to her that she had been sexually assaulted.
KING: Do you believe her?
ABLOW: I believe that accusations like that of that severity have to be corroborated to the extent that they can. I can't as a forensic psychiatrist I did not get a feeling from her that she was after anything for secondary gain. And I sometimes do get those feelings. So, I didn't -- I didn't have the sense she was after anything for secondary gain.
She related these revelations often in tears. Her father, a good and decent guy, Larry, was in tears. Her mother was crying. They seemed as though they had reached very deep into themselves spiritually in order to decide to share this information. And so, I felt like I was sitting with people who were relating their story to the best of their ability as honestly as they could.
KING: Got you. We have four excerpts from the interview. We'll look at them one by one.
KING: You give us your thoughts after each. By the way, much more of this interview with John Mark will air during the first week of Dr. Ablow's syndicated show which debuts on 9/11, historic date, but that is a Monday. And we'll be in New York that night for a special show.
The first tape we're going to hear is Quientana alleging that John Mark Karr drugged and abused her. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABLOW: You had the sense that he was drugging you. What did you experience when it happened?
QUIENTANA: Well, I would wake up in the morning. My eyes would be just solid red and I had blood blisters in places that I shouldn't.
ABLOW: So, what did you say to him?
QUIENTANA: I know I went to bed Tuesday and I know I'm waking up on Thursday, you know, and I said something to him about it. Then he did get angry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Dr. Ablow, is one of the dangers in this, and we tread on this in television, this girl may never testify if there is a trial. They may not allow this in evidence. Potential jurors seeing this they're certainly going to prejudge right? Do you see that danger?
ABLOW: Well, I see the risk in broadcasting any information that comes without an eyewitness frankly and yet we have a guy who's put himself forward and said he was present while a six-year-old girl died.
And we have a courageous woman who at 13 feels that she was transported across state lines in order to be married by a young man but a man, married to him against the wishes of her father.
She's coming forward with this information to share it and without any seeming desire for gain. And so, I guess there's that risk. And yet I think people can sense the truth, so I guess that's the mitigation of the risk. I believe that jurors are careful and that they put this in context.
KING: And the truth may be, Dr. Ablow, that he's a creep and he's a little crazy and he treated his wife bad but he may not be a murderer.
ABLOW: Absolutely. He may be completely innocent of killing this young girl. That doesn't mean that he is necessarily guilty or innocent of the very serious allegations you just heard.
KING: Now we'll hear another selection from the tape, the father, Quientana's father talking about why his daughter found John Mark Karr enticing. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABLOW: Tell me, first of all, how did you come to meet John Karr?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first time I ever saw him is when he brought my daughter back after he had carried her away.
ABLOW: How had they known each other before that do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She met him at a friend's house. He was dating an older sister. And she said he immediately turned his attention to her and, of course, she came -- I remember her coming home that day and saying "Momma, momma, I rode in a Porsche."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: He obviously had some attraction right?
ABLOW: Well, he obviously did and I think that's a story that almost any concerned parent can relate to. You know, kids are impressionable. A young man with a fast car that's a story that almost comes out of a TV movie. And yet this was their private horror that this father didn't know what to do and he seems like a motivated fellow.
He went down to the courthouse, he told me, and he talked to a police officer. He said, "My daughter's been taken from our home. I don't know how to get her back." And he was told, according to him, "Listen, sir, kids go away. They come back. You got to wait for her back home."
He pursued it in various ways over the years, never getting satisfaction, never apparently finding his way in the law to actually extract his daughter from that situation until she finally called him and asked for his help very directly and said "I'm ready to get out of here" and he came and got her.
KING: Thanks again to all of our guests this past week. Many of them will be back as we keep following this case and thanks to you for joining us on LARRY KING LIVE, the place to be for all the latest on the Ramsey case and lots more. Now stay tuned for more news on CNN, your most trusted name in news.
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