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A Colorado court clears John Mark Karr for extradition to California to face charges of possessing child pornography. Boulder district attorney Mary Lacy holds a press conference to explain why she brought Karr back from Thailand and then had to dismiss the charges.

Aired August 29, 2006 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, confessed killer of JonBenet Ramsey walks after no DNA match. Just in the last moments, he emerges from a Boulder, Colorado, courtroom, extradition to California on serious charges of child pornography -- done deal. And the Boulder district attorney tries to explain away a colossal blunder that could forever preclude the truth coming out in court.

MARY LACY, BOULDER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Hindsight is 20/20. After the game is over, it`s easy to criticize what people have done and what decisions have been made. The responsibility is mine, and I should be held accountable for all decisions in this case. And I`m out of here in two years, you know, unless they really do get me to resign in the meantime.


GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Straight to Boulder, Colorado. Standing by, Court TV`s Jean Casarez. Jean, he`s just come out of the courtroom. What happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, Nancy, this was the extradition hearing. It just ended moments ago. The defense fought hard for extradition. The defense attorney, Seth Temin, said, Judge, release him here, release him now. But the prosecutor said no, and that`s all because when he was released on his own recognizance in California in October of 2001, in regard to those child porn possession charges -- well, he signed a form when he was released on his own recognizance, and there was some fine print on that form, and that fine print said, You can never fight extradition. And the judge said that that`s the way it is, that that -- what is on that form rules. Even though the defense had a constitutional argument, she said that`s for the California courts, not for this court. He will be extradited in 15 calendar days.

GRACE: So California is responsible for getting him back to California to face charges. What exactly are the charges? Why are they just misdemeanors?

CASAREZ: They`re misdemeanors because under the law, that is what they determined them to be, based upon the pictures that they found...

GRACE: Jean!

CASAREZ: ... on his computer...

GRACE: Jean, it`s child pornography! Somebody tell me...

CASAREZ: You`re right.

GRACE: ... why child pornography is not a felony in California?

CASAREZ: Because it`s mere possession. It is not distribution, it is mere possession. And under the law in California, mere possession is a misdemeanor.

GRACE: OK, to Eleanor Dixon, veteran prosecutor. Why? Simple possession of crack cocaine is a felony. Simple possession of powder cocaine, simple possession of heroin, that`s all a felony. But you have a picture of a child, 6-year-old, a 3-year-old in a sex act with an adult, and that`s not a felony? Oh! How did that happen?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I don`t know how it happened in California. I know, thankfully, in Georgia, it is a felony to possess child pornography. I`m also wondering if maybe he ever distributed in any way in California over the Internet or something. Perhaps that could bump it up to a felony. But child pornography is horrible. It`s spread throughout the Internet, for example, and definitely should be a felony, and there should be some considerable time for having that sort of thing.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president of Beyondmissing, who has unfortunately been dragged into this whole affair against his will, this perv, John Mark Karr moving, uprooting his whole family and moving them to Petaluma, California, just so they could be closer to the place where Marc`s daughter, Polly Klaas, was kidnapped and murdered.

What about child pornography being a misdemeanor, number one, Marc?

MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Well, that`s a consideration, or that is a judgment that was made by the California state legislature, and unfortunately, it is a pretty liberal legislature, and I think that they`ve made a terrible mistake. What they were afraid of was getting people caught up in the "three strikes" law, but I think there is a huge difference between inadvertently clicking on a picture and then downloading it. So they`ve made a terrible mistake, and it may result in this guy going back into society, which is something that none of us want.

GRACE: I mean, the reality is, Jean Casarez, if he even gets consecutive time on each of these five child porn charges, the max he could get is five years. He`ll never even do half of that.

CASAREZ: That`s right. And he`s already served six months, and so you`re going to deduct those six months.

GRACE: Oh, what you`re trying to tell me in a nice way, Jean, is he`s probably going to get time served. Is that where you`re headed?

CASAREZ: I think so. I think so because he was incarcerated from April to October in 2001.

GRACE: Jean, how close did you get to him in court? And what did you observe?

CASAREZ: Very close, Nancy. I was sitting on the edge. I was in the second row. And when he came in, he walked directly toward all of us but directly toward me. And Nancy, he`s a small man. He`s a short man. I`ve read he`s 5-7. That`s probably about what he is. His eyes were piercing. You know, I have never locked eyes with a defendant, a suspect -- he`s none of that here in this state, but I`ve never locked eyes in a courtroom. We locked eyes, and I looked in his eyes. And Nancy, he`s in custody. He doesn`t have make-up on, but -- I don`t think. But his eyes were so piercing, and it looked like he had eyeliner on. But they were just so piercing, they were so iridescent, and just locking with you.

And one other thing, Nancy. Do you remember in some of those videos that you showed on your show, where he`s singing and playing the guitar and holding the boxer shorts up...

GRACE: Yes, yes, I remember.

CASAREZ: You see hair on his arms, Nancy, and that is all gone. No more. So the hair removal we heard about, allegedly, I can verify. He doesn`t have that hair anymore on his arms.

GRACE: OK. So he`s not just a perv, he`s a hairless perv. Obviously getting ready for the sex change, right?

CASAREZ: Well, I don`t know what his reasons were, but I just noted a difference from that video and what I observed personally in court.

GRACE: OK. Dare I ask him -- but to Marc Klaas, president of Beyondmissing -- so not only is he a perv, he`s a hairless perv, Marc.

KLAAS: Well, you know what? Thank goodness there were some charges against this guy in California. Now, I`m not even sure that the district attorney was aware of the California connection when she instigated this travesty. But had these charges not been pending on him, she would have had to release this lunatic, this monster into the general population of Colorado yesterday afternoon.

I don`t think this thing was thought out at all. This is just an absurd case from the beginning.

GRACE: Take a listen to just a little bit of what the district attorney heard before this colossal blunder. These are secretly recorded videotapes taken by Professor Tracey.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have (DELETED) tolerated this (DELETED) world, little twisted (DELETED) running around amok, thinking I`m a monster. They don`t even know who I am. And I put up with them putting their hands on my little girl for 10 (DELETED) years, and it`s time for me to take her back. It`s time for her parents to take her back, Michael. It`s time for her parents be able to take their little girl back and say, This is my child. Leave my child alone. Stop looking at my child.

-- to just live my life in obscurity quite well, as I have.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, why come out of obscurity and reveal myself and take a chance and make -- take risks that I might be caught? Why do that? I don`t know. I`m compelled to do that for the strangest of reasons, for -- it`s not really -- it`s for JonBenet, in a way. And in another way, it`s just like to tell the -- to shout at the world, Listen, that`s my little girl, and this is why. She`s mine, and this is why. And I want to just somehow -- maybe -- maybe I just want to shout to the world that she`s -- that she`s mine...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and she`s not theirs and she`s -- she`s mine because of this. And I guess I just can`t take it anymore that after 10 years, that still -- and I lost her, and I can`t even visit her grave anymore and I can`t even rush to her mother`s side, who requested to see me at her grave, which is killing me right now.



GRACE: Yes, the voice recordings, the e-mails, the other voice recordings by Wendy Hutchens were all chilling, were all scary. In fact, in one of the e-mails to Professor Tracey, John Mark Karr states he only wished that he could get into the coffin with JonBenet Ramsey and make love to the 6-year-old girl one more time. Yes. Perverted? A felony? I don`t know.

Out to a very special guest joining us tonight, Steve Thomas, a former detective on the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. It`s a pleasure to have you on the air. Thank you for being with us, Mr. Thomas.


GRACE: Steve, I`m about to play you some sound from the Boulder district attorney`s press conference today. Take a listen to this before I ask for your comment.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we were able to put him in Boulder with rock solid, you know, credit card receipts, somebody who saw him on the hill, would we have had an airtight case at that point? Given the way he described the crime having been committed, it would have been a horse race. Had we been able to put him absolutely right here in Boulder, his confessions, admissions and description of the crime, but not having DNA, we would have had -- it would have been a triable lawsuit.

LACY: The decisions were mine. The responsibility is mine, and I should be held accountable for all decisions in this case.

Last night, as I was preparing to leave, I received a telephone call from a gentleman in Longmont (ph), and he said -- this was a voice-mail. He said, You should be tarred and feathered and run out of town, and I want you to call me and tell me that you`re going to resign.


GRACE: I`m surprised that that`s the most disturbing language she heard after this colossal blunder.

Out to Steve Thomas, who put his heart and soul into finding the killer of JonBenet Ramsey. I don`t get their discussion of an airtight case, Steve. They`ve got no DNA, no fingerprint, no palm print, no footprint matching. He`s not in the city, he`s not even in the same state the night that she`s killed. What were they thinking?

THOMAS: What I continue, Nancy, to witness from this district attorney`s office is simply inconceivable. She had an insufficient and incomplete case, in which, unfortunately now, speaking with friends in the Colorado law enforcement community, she has lost all credibility within the cops and detectives. And I can tell you, the Boulder Police Department is outraged and livid about being drug back into this after being removed from it in December of 2002.

But Nancy, you`re absolutely right. You tack down and then you double tack down, you corroborate, you create a nexus, you check airline passenger manifests, you show that he was in the home, you pull the victim`s funeral video, you show him in the back row at the church, for example. And there`s only three ways to solve a crime, through witnesses, through evidence or through a confession, and they acted solely on confessionary statements from this 51-50 (ph) cuckoo and without any other corroboration. And it just simply boggles my mind.

GRACE: Well, in addition to that, Steve Thomas -- and we`re about to start taking your calls. I know that the line is queued up. The law is in black and white, Steve Thomas, that a confession alone cannot make a felony conviction. If all you have is a confession, on appeal that will be reversed.

Joining me right now, veteran trial lawyer Ray Giudice. Why is it, Ray, you can`t make a felony case under the law with a confession alone? It`s reversible error!

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The law -- the courts want a confession to be corroborated by additional evidence. And I want to point out, as I pointed out a couple of weeks ago on this show, there`s been no confession in this. This was e-mails of a lunatic that the DA sort of wrapped up into a, quote, unquote, "confession," put in an affidavit, ran it in front of a judge, who shame on that judge, signed this affidavit without putting DA`s office to task.

And quite frankly, they admitted it in their own motion to quash, where they state in paragraph 23, it wasn`t until Karr was detained that the investigators start to inquire as to where he was during holidays in that year.

GRACE: Oh, God!

GIUDICE: I mean, they did this back...

GRACE: I`ve got a another problem, too, Ray. And I`m going to throw this one back to Steve Thomas, who put his heart and soul in trying to find the killer, who helped process the crime scene and worked on this case for a very, very long time.

What is all this about hiding behind the safety of children? We had to arrest him right now, with breathless anticipation, giving a presser -- there`s no way to keep that secret anymore -- giving a press conference, talking about the arrest, when this guy had been around children since 1996, opening up a licensed day care in his own home just six months after JonBenet was killed, getting all of these teaching jobs. And suddenly, there`s got to be a splash, a media blitz, we`ve got to bring him home from Bangkok?

Did you see the video, Steve? In the video, we all know this guy is drinking and eating on the plane. There`s a million ways to get DNA. You don`t have to fly him home, blow the case, make a formal arrest, basically precluding a future prosecution, Steve.

THOMAS: You`re absolutely right, Nancy. And let me say this. There`s no reason that they could not have executed their rule 41-1, the...

GRACE: OK, what`s that?

THOMAS: ... compelling non-testimonial evidence from this suspect. And I heard in the press conference today that they didn`t do that because it would have been procedurally onerous, that there would have been some obstacles to overcome, that they would have had to translate documents...

GRACE: There`s always obstacles to overcome, Steve.

THOMAS: Exactly, Nancy. And I`ve got to say, are they trying to suggest that this was easier, this debacle that we just witnessed over the last two weeks, rather than, again, taking the pristine sample, getting it back to the States, at least for a preliminary match, if she thought she had made her case? It just...

GRACE: And then, Steve...

THOMAS: ... again, boggles my mind.

GRACE: ... wouldn`t you know it, when the guy finally consents to giving the bukel (ph) sample, the mouth swab, he consents, and they don`t have the kit with them.

We`re going to go out to the lines in just a moment, but I want to tell about tonight`s "Case Alert." A routine traffic stop has led to the arrest of FBI 10 Most Wanted fugitive Warren Jeffs, the 50-year-old leader of a breakaway Mormon sect captured near Vegas, of all places, in a vehicle with no registration at the time. Jeffs was with one of his estimated 80 wives -- yes, 80 wives -- and a brother. Inside the vehicle, large amounts of cash, disguises, electronic equipment, including a police scanner and a GPS tracking device, Jeffs wanted in Utah and Arizona for sex misconduct with minors and rape as an accomplice.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am able to confirm that Mr. Jeffs was taken into custody late last evening near Las Vegas, Nevada, by troopers of the Department of Public Safety, the Nevada Highway Patrol Bureau and FBI agents from the Las Vegas field office. This apprehension occurred while Mr. Jeffs was a passenger in a vehicle which had been stopped by a Nevada Highway Patrol trooper.



LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": No (INAUDIBLE) here. You`re not out to get them, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not.

KING: And you don`t think he started out to get you, right? He believes his is theory?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... believes it, as florid (ph) as it is. Let me ask this question...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, how about the convoluted sex crimes theory? I still haven`t heard that, John. I had to explain my theory. Let`s hear this pedophile kidnapper.


GRACE: Steve Thomas, former detective on the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation, poured his heart and soul into finding the real killer. He is with us tonight.

Let`s got to lines. To Sharon in Florida. Hi, Sharon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Is there any chance that Mr. Karr could face charges for lying to police officers about this crime?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Jean Casarez. What about false report?

CASAREZ: False report? Well, here in Colorado, it is a misdemeanor. But more than that, the false report has to be a legal or investigative authority, and the false report was given to the professor, so it`s a moot issue.

GRACE: What about what he said to Bangkok authorities, Mickey Sherman? Would that work?

SHERMAN: No because, oddly enough, Mary Lacy is his best defense. One of the things she said in the news conference today was that she believes that he absolutely believes that he killed JonBenet. So she vouches for his lack of lying, lack of cooperating, and the fact that he`s truly insane and believes what he`s saying.

GRACE: Thanks, Mar! Let`s go out to Barbara in Kentucky. So bottom line, no charges for false reporting. Barbara, hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I want to say how much I enjoy your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, how do you explain the handwriting in the yearbook and how that was signed with "Will be the conqueror," and the same thing signed on the ransom note?

GRACE: On the ransom note, it said "SBTC." In the yearbook, it said "Shall be the conqueror." It`s an odd coincidence, but regarding the handwriting, there are as many, if not more, discrepancies as there were similarities.

Liz, do we have time for the last call for right now?

Sally in Georgia. Hi, Sally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve got a good question here. Why wasn`t the Boulder DA so afraid that he was going to molest children in Thailand and get him back over here? What about the little girls in our United States?

GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, she did mention that in the press conference.

CASAREZ: She sure did. She said that investigators had seen him on the first day of school in Bangkok. They were peering through a window, and they saw him inappropriately talking to a 5-year-old -- not touching but talking -- and that was one of the reasons Thailand wanted to get rid of him.

GRACE: So after 10 years, they finally decided to make an arrest, after he had been exposed to children since JonBenet`s murder.




QUESTION: Are you an innocent man?



GRACE: Yes. It`s on every headline. Mary Lacy, what do you have to say about this? "Off the hook." Is this case forever in jeopardy because of one false move by the district attorney, Boulder, Colorado?

And Jean Casarez, more breaking news out of the courtroom. Apparently, the judge is refusing to give him back a picture of JonBenet Ramsey with her mother, and his computer. Is that the computer that had the child porn on it? Oh! You`re not going to get your computer back? I heard he hung his head down and shook it.

CASAREZ: This is another computer. This is the computer that he had in Thailand that they brought back in a box with all of his belongings. And the district attorney said, Well, your honor, he cannot, first of all, have the picture that we sent him. You could just tell with his body language that he was upset by that. And that is a picture, I understand, of JonBenet Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey.

And then the prosecutor said, And I can`t let him have his computer and his Zip drive because a condition of release in northern California was that he was not around a computer at all. And so the DA won on that, and the district attorney`s office will hold that computer and most likely send it to northern California.

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo! Mickey Sherman, what do you think he`s doing with that computer?

SHERMAN: God only knows. But I totally agree. No judge is going to give him back a computer, just like they`re not going to give an attempted murderer a weapon. But you know, I got to tell you, Nancy, I wonder if Mary Lacy appreciated how enormous this news would be.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you look at the physical evidence in this case, it`s abundant. We have unidentified footwear impressions in the room where her body was found. There was a paintbrush that`s missing. There`s rope; there`s tape. There`s a number of things that point to an intruder. You have an open window. You have a suitcase at the base of that window with glass on top of it. These are all obvious signs that an intruder entered this home.


GRACE: Headlines all across the country, this one`s from the "Boston Globe," "Karr Wreck." It couldn`t be said any better. Red-faced D.A. drops charges versus sicko. All true. Mary Lacy, the elected district attorney there in Boulder -- thank God for term limits, she`s out in 2008 - - trying to explain away a decision that could forever jeopardize justice in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case.

Out to Steve Thomas, a special guest with us tonight, and we are talking your calls. He was one of the initial detectives on this case who worked the case from the get-go.

Steve, you never supported the intruder theory. What was your opinion when you first heard that they had actually made an arrest of John Mark Karr? There`s Steve`s book, "JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation." Go ahead, Steve.

THOMAS: Yes, Nancy, my team of detectives took over this case two days after the homicide. And we inherited a case -- and I don`t apologize for the Boulder Police Department -- that had some egregious difficulties. But I have to limit my remarks in that regard.

Suffice it to say, I`m not a subscriber to the intruder theory. But the last time I spoke openly and frankly from my heart and gut and mind, I was the target of Ramsey litigation and lawsuits. So, with that said, Nancy, I just think Keenan (ph) is in a world of trouble in the regard that she`s lost the support of the law enforcement community in Boulder. And I don`t know that she can continue to hold that job.

GRACE: Well, Steve, without naming any potential suspects in this case, dead or alive, what points away from an intruder theory?

THOMAS: Well, what points away from an intruder theory, whoever -- I think everybody can agree -- reasonable minds can agree that whoever wrote that ransom note was involved or, in fact, killed the victim in this case. And I think there was some strong circumstantial evidence in this case that could be argued against an intruder.

And let me present a hypothetical to you, Nancy: We just watched the district attorney make an arrest in this case. If the police detectives hypothetically had gone to the district attorney`s office with an arrest warrant in this case, we would have been run out of town had we not been able to corroborate, substantiate, provide a nexus. And I think we could have hypothetically made a much more compelling argument in an arrest warrant affidavit in this case in one scenario than she`s made for an intruder.

GRACE: Regarding the intruder theory -- and it`s only natural that you first look at people closest to the victim, such as family members, the delivery boy, the next door neighbor, the teacher, the family friend, those closest to the victim. That is normal procedure.

But let`s think this thing through, Steve. No alarm went off. There was no sign of -- no clear sign of forced entry into the home. Nothing was stolen. The ransom note on, I believe, it was Patsy Ramsey`s writing pad, written with Patsy Ramsey`s writing pen, was taken from the home.

So somebody didn`t come in with that ransom note. They sat around the home and were not afraid of being detected in the home. And then, instead of taking the child away, such as in the Elizabeth Smart case or the Danielle van Dam case, they felt free enough to molest or pose the child as if she had been molested in the home, kill her after feeding her pineapple, and leave. That just points totally away from anyone that was in fear of detection.

THOMAS: Well, and let`s not forget the FBI advisers who assisted us in this case throughout had never seen an instance in which a pedophile kidnapper, who typically kidnaps for their own sexual gratification, had ever involved themselves in a kidnapping for ransom for monetary gain. And this was just such an unusual and unique hybrid, and they had some difficulty with that.

GRACE: In your experience -- I`ve never seen it in my experience -- but in your experience, as well, Steve, have you ever seen a pedophile leave behind a note?

THOMAS: Well, this case, Nancy, was unique in so many regards, and I think the FBI scratched their heads that they hadn`t seen anything like this in the annals of, you know, criminal history.

GRACE: Out to Lillian Glass, psychologist, you know, a lot of people are now suggesting that Karr really believes he committed the murder. I see him as someone who was just totally fascinated with the molestation and murder of little girls.

DR. LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And when you look at the transcript that he absolutely did with the professor, you just see...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Lillian. Hold on, Lillian. "Yes, I`m aware of the blunt trauma to JonBenet`s head. It was the worst of the end result. It went against all that I believed in, because it tarnished my princess. Blood in small quantities is a different thing."

GLASS: He is so sick. And when you look at what he wrote, you see the sickness over and over and over again. He actually believes that he did kill her. And he is so taken with her and so sick about his obsession with her, it`s so poignant when you read the transcript.

GRACE: Here`s another e-mail. These are some of the things that caught Mary Lacy`s attention, the district attorney. The girl felt like her mother, smelled like her mother, was soft and sweet like her mother. JonBenet was a heavy sleeper. She was playful and very alive. When the time came for sleep, she slept hard. Nothing covered her mouth, nor was she drugged or stunned or harmed in any way when she was removed from her bed. Genius, many times, overlooks simplicity.

Steve Thomas, when you are reading these e-mails, there`s nothing in them that could not have been gained off the Internet. For Pete`s sake, the entire autopsy was revealed on the Internet, and I kept looking through these 90 pages of supporting affidavit, and there was nothing in there, to my knowledge, that was anything more than any of us would know.

THOMAS: Well, the ramblings of a lunatic. And certainly the public is not aware, Nancy, like you and I are, and Marc Klaas is, of all the very dangerous sex offenders and suspects that are out in the community.

We had a case very analogous to Karr in which we investigated a suspect during the Ramsey investigation as a potential suspect in the murder of JonBenet in North Carolina, who was in custody for the horrible rape of a 2-year-old child over a number of days after he had abducted her out of a residence, left a flashlight behind. Duct tape was used.

And we were able to corroborate and nail down, through a time card, colleagues, a number of other pieces of physical evidence that he was not the suspect in our case. But I see nothing in the four corners of this arrest warrant affidavit that could not have been gleaned from somebody simply logging onto the Internet and researching this case.

GRACE: Right. Take a listen to this.


JOHN MARK KARR, SUSPECT IN JONBENET RAMSEY INVESTIGATION: It`s not so much that I`m concerned that they`re exploiting her. It`s just that I want them to get their bloody hands off her. That`s what I want. If I saw anything on the Internet about her, I would die. It would just be disgusting. Who are those disgusting strangers who would dare talk about her?


GRACE: Well, actually, Mr. Karr, you`re one of those disgusting strangers. To James in North Carolina, hi, James, what`s your question?

CALLER: Nancy, I was just wondering, is there not a federal statute that supersedes the statute in the state of California on the possession of child pornography?

GRACE: Good question.

Jean Casarez, are we familiar with any federal statute that`s been invoked?

CASAREZ: I`m not. But I`m sure, if there is one, California authorities will find it, no question.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The warrant on Mr. Karr has been dropped by the district attorney. They`re not proceeding with this case. We`re deeply distressed by the fact that they took this man and dragged him here from Bangkok, Thailand, with no forensic evidence confirming the allegations against him and no independent factors leading to a presumption that he did anything wrong. There will be no hearing today.


GRACE: Dragged your client all the way from Thailand, are you kidding me? That was the defense attorney. This guy flew business class, toasted champagne, had king prawns to the tune of about a $5,000 trip. He`s loving every minute of it. He`s milking it like a cow. He`s probably going to write a book when this whole thing is over and make more than you and I put together in life.

I`m talking about this guy, the one with no hair on his arms or his face, John Mark Karr, the guy that confessed to killing JonBenet Ramsey, the guy who`s charged with child pornography.

And, P.S., out to James, North Carolina, we did a quick research online of this federal child porn statutes. They deal with disseminating, selling, intent to distribute, mailing child pornography.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky joining us -- he`s a forensic scientist and works at John Jay College of Criminal Justice -- why couldn`t they get a good DNA match off of a cup he drank from on the plane, off a cup he used or glass he used in a restaurant? I`m just not buying, "We had to blow the whole thing and bring him home publicly."

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, good, Nancy. That`s two of us. I feel the same way. Mary Lacy said that she needed a pristine sample for comparison to be made with the JonBenet Ramsey evidence.

I would agree with that, if it were for litigation purposes, but we`re talking about surreptitious samples, where you can get a profile. Even if they were mixed -- she says they were mixed, but I don`t know when or if they were tested -- but the point is, this was for an investigation. And I believe that they could have eliminated Mr. Karr before he left Bangkok.

GRACE: Is there any way -- to Dr. Bruce Levy, forensic pathologist, a chief medical examiner, is there any that, at the time of her killing, 1996, fingerprints could actually be taken off of human skin, off of her body?

DR. BRUCE LEVY, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Absolutely. You can lift fingerprints from human skin. In fact, we have groups that come into our office that we help train in that very technique, in removing those fingerprints from bodies. So it could have been done; it`s not always there, but it can be done.

GRACE: Out to Katherine in Texas. Hi, Katherine.

CALLER: Hi, how are you, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: I have a question about this boot print that they found in the basement of the Ramsey home?

GRACE: OK. What`s your question?

CALLER: It has a logo, Hi-Tec Boots.


CALLER: And I wanted to know, since the DNA didn`t match, will they pursue this other theory?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Steve Thomas, what about it?

THOMAS: What theory is that, Nancy?

GRACE: The other theory that I assume she means, John Mark Karr or an intruder that was using a Hi-Tec Boot. I mean, can we even place the Hi- Tec boot to that night?

THOMAS: No, you can`t date the impression of that Hi-Tec boot print. But as to the inference in the caller`s question, Nancy, this district attorney will never make an arrest in this case again. And if she does, I`ll come on your show and eat my hat.

GRACE: Why? Why won`t she make an arrest?

THOMAS: Well, she has been so publicly humiliated, but she`s also been so myopic in her search for an intruder in this case. And I think she`s been burned so badly and, quite frankly, I don`t think this case was cold in recent years. After this debacle, I just don`t see any successful resolution to this case going forward.

GRACE: So now it`s not only cold, it`s dead and cold.

But Andy Kahan, with the Houston`s mayor`s crime victims office, it`s not cold on Internet. Explain.

ANDY KAHAN, DIRECTOR, VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: I`ll tell you, Nancy, the entrepreneurs, the capitalists, and what I probably refer to them and you`ll agree as river-bottom dwelling catfish (INAUDIBLE) they`re coming out of the woodshed to capitalize on the infamy and ill- gotten notoriety that Karr has achieved over the last few weeks.

Within the last several days, they started selling his t-shirts, with his picture on a shirt, domain names. There was a doll, paintings, drawings, public records, his yearbook, the arrest warrant, domain names. They`re coming out of the woodshed to capitalize on this.

And, you know, the problem that you`ve got with this situation is, by definition, of course, he`s not convicted. You can`t legislate bad taste. But retail establishments like eBay on other retailers that are allowing the marketing and the merchandising that`s based upon the horrific death of a 6-year-old girl to go on, they could take the high road and put a stop to this.

I`m going to contact them tomorrow, and we`ll see what we can do about getting these products off the market.

GRACE: And, hey, eBay, if you`re listening tonight, you are making a percentage of the profits off the death of a 6-year-old little girl. EBay, is that really what you want to do? Because I find it disgusting. It`s called murder-abilia, and it is blood money. And you, eBay, are putting that money in your pocket.

To Mickey Sherman -- yes, no -- has this decision to arrest John Mark Karr and bring him in forever precluded a real prosecution?

SHERMAN: Absolutely not. I mean, to say that this is going to retard another arrest makes no sense at all. Another arrest will come down the pike when some kook, but a guilty kook, confesses, or some jailhouse snitch finds the real guy.

GRACE: Agree or...

SHERMAN: But let me tell one really quick point. Suppose a different scenario happens. Suppose Mary Lacy found all of the stuff, didn`t do anything about it, and then we found out about it that she had this guy and just let him go about in Thailand. Wouldn`t we all be outraged that she didn`t pursue this guy?

GRACE: I`m outraged about an arrest based on some perv`s e-mails.

SHERMAN: So we should have let him go?

GRACE: No, she should`ve continued the investigation until she had a real case. Agree or disagree, Ray Giudice?

GIUDICE: I agree with you, Nancy. I mean, this isn`t "Casablanca." We just don`t round up the usual suspects. After a long time of knowing about this guy, they didn`t communicate with California. I`m somewhat suspect as to the role of the professor, you know, sort of encouraging this guy and discussing a movie deal with him.



MICHAEL TRACEY, PROFESSOR: Why that night, and why did you do it? Do you have any sense about yourself?

KARR: I don`t know, I`m very sentimental.

TRACEY: You`re very sentimental?

KARR: Yes, I mean, I like special nights, special nights. It was a special night. It was Christmas night.


GRACE: Secretly recorded conversation, of course, Christmas is a special night to John Mark Karr. It was the night JonBenet was murdered in her own home.

Out to prosecutor Eleanor Dixon, Eleanor, today I heard Mary Lacy, the elected D.A., state, "Search and seizure law is not my forte." OK, how can that be for an elected D.A.? And I`ve been researching and researching whether she`s actually solo tried a single murder case. I can`t find any evidence of it. How is that? Is the world turned upside down that a lawyer doesn`t know search and seizure law, for Pete`s sake?

DIXON: Well, this is an elected official, Nancy, and you know how politics is. But it`s very scary to think that somebody who doesn`t have maybe as much trial experience as they should wouldn`t be aware of some of the things you`re looking for, as far as presenting evidence to a jury. And that`s what we`re talking about. What is your strong evidence that you can show to prove that a particular defendant is guilty of a crime?

GRACE: What went wrong, Eleanor? And why is everyone refusing to admit that this blunder, this strategic mistake may cost any future prosecution?

DIXON: It may. One thing, though. You could you look at it and say, "Maybe this will bring something else. Maybe this will revive the cold case in some way." You can only hope that it will. You know, I might have to agree with Ray Giudice here and say, well, the defense can argue at least the system worked. An innocent man wasn`t convicted of any crime, so I guess that`s the good side of it.

GRACE: Eleanor, wait, please put the camera on her, please. The district attorney arrested the wrong person, made it public, gave a presser, although she said didn`t want to give a presser, she had to. That`s B.S. You know what our boss told us, the longest serving D.A. in this country: Don`t make an arrest until you have your case or you will lose your case.

DIXON: And she didn`t have it.

GRACE: You remember that, Eleanor?

DIXON: Yes, she did. And she didn`t have it. And the case is gone. And unfortunately, it was done in a very public way, in front of everybody`s eye. The media is all over this. Should have kept it quiet from the beginning.

GRACE: I really don`t care what the media thinks. What I care about is someday bringing justice to a 6-year-old girl.

DIXON: And that may never happen.

GRACE: We are signing off. Thank you to my guests and to you, for being with us. Good night, friend.


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