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Sonoma County Sheriff Seeks New Warrant for John Mark Karr

Aired August 30, 2006 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the confessed killer of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey, John Mark Karr, may walk. No DNA match, no murder case. But as of tonight, Karr`s not off the hook. Tonight, we learn Sonoma sheriff is seeking a brand-new warrant to investigate Karr`s ongoing child porn and more. And Karr has a meltdown in court when the judge refuses to give back allegedly the very last photo of JonBenet with her mother and Karr`s personal computer. Tonight, the woman who turned Karr in to California authorities explains to us why she`s convinced Karr`s done much more than collect porn.

MARY LACY, BOULDER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This has been, you know, a disappointment on the part of the entire community and law enforcement and our office, on the part of everyone. I don`t think there`s anyone here who doesn`t want to solve this crime with the right person who committed the crime.


GRACE: Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez, standing by in Boulder, Colorado. Where is John Mark Karr right now?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: He is in his cell in the Boulder County jail. He had a very good dinner tonight, and jail officials tells us he`s not causing any problems. He`s very quiet. He just sort of sits and is to his self (ph).

GRACE: Is he in isolation?

CASAREZ: Yes, he`s in isolation. He has an 8-by-10 cell, stainless steel bed, stainless steel toilet, stainless steel washbasin, but he`s comfortable.

GRACE: Why is he in isolation?

CASAREZ: He`s in isolation to really protect himself. And you`re probably wondering why, at this point, is he in isolation? Because his name is a household word, and they don`t want to mix him with the other prisoners because they fear that there could be danger towards him, John Karr.

GRACE: Yesterday, Jean, in court, John Mark Karr, the confessed killer, now cleared through DNA, had a meltdown in court. Why?

CASAREZ: It`s very interesting because the defense said, Judge, your honor, all of his personal belongings came with him from Thailand to here in Boulder, Colorado, and he wants them back. Well, the assistant district attorney stood up and said, Your honor, I understand that, but he cannot have the picture we sent him. And Karr was very distraught about that. You could tell he was just upset.

What we found out is that that picture is a picture that the DA`s office sent to Karr in Thailand. It`s a picture of JonBenet Ramsey and her mother. The reason we understand they sent that picture was to try to locate and identify him and to make sure that the person Professor Tracey was e-mailing was the person that would receive that picture. And John Karr brought that back in his luggage from Thailand.

GRACE: He brought that back all the way from Thailand, that perv! Here`s my question. The district sent it to him, or was it under the guise of that Professor Tracey?

CASAREZ: It was under the guise of Professor Tracey, but it was the DA. The DA was leading this investigation the whole way, and they were responsible for a lot of things that Professor Tracey said and did.

GRACE: So this picture, the last purported picture of JonBenet Ramsey with her mother ever taken before her strangulation death, he kept with him? That is sick!

CASAREZ: Well, he doesn`t have it any longer. But you`re right, it meant so much to him that he brought it back with all of the personal belongings, clothes and even that computer that he brought back from Thailand.

GRACE: Which leads me to the computer. Apparently, as we speak, Sonoma sheriff`s deputies are trying to get another yet another warrant signed for another search of his computer. Explain. And how many computers does this guy have?

CASAREZ: I think he`s got two, at least we know about. Now, the warrant you`re talking about out of Sonoma County is the computer he had in 2001 because that`s the computer that lead to the five counts of misdemeanor child porn. Well, back in 2001, apparently, technology was not what it is today, so Sonoma County prosecutors are saying they want a warrant. They`re going to get a warrant to re-search that computer to see if there`s any way that they can find more porn. And what I think they`re looking for, Nancy, are some felonies. Did he distribute any of that child porn in 2001 or merely possess it on the computer?

GRACE: Let me think~~! Now, it looks like a duck. It walks like a duck. Does it quack like a duck? Did this guy send even one child porn image? We know very well that he described it in detail in e-mails and phone conversations. Take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What it amounts to is I think that most of us are capable of having any of those fantasies, and it`s hard for me to differentiate between what -- what they mean, you know? Instead of thinking she`s pretty, you start to think she`s sexy. I guess at that point, you`re probably having a sexual attraction to that child.

JonBenet. God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, that doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful.


GRACE: Based on that alone, there should be a warrant for a further search of his computer. Five years has passed, and technology has been enhanced.

Joining us tonight are two legal experts, Doug Burns and Midwin Charles. Doug Burns, what`s the likelihood -- they`ve already had one shot at his computer. What`s the likelihood this judge is going to allow Sonoma sheriff another swing at the ball?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think -- I think the judge will, Nancy. I mean, law enforcement`s all about resources, so this guy would have flown under the radar with nobody having heard of him. But now that he`s come to worldwide attention, I will guarantee you they`re going to look at him so closely now, it`s going to be unbelievable because his profile, coupled with looking at him, is going to lead to a lot of new information, in my opinion.

GRACE: And Midwin Charles, you and Doug Burns have defended a lot of criminals, but when you hear that, is there any doubt in your mind? I mean, Midwin, look, I`ve got 80 pages of e-mails, phone conversations, another 90 in the supporting affidavit on his arrest warrant, where he talks about nothing but dead little girls, having sex with little girls. Midwin, this guy even talks about wanting to crawl into the coffin of JonBenet, God rest her soul, and make love to her one last time. You want to tell me this guy has never acted on this?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s one of the things that we have to look at the evidence and see whether or not he has...


CHARLES: ... acted, Nancy. We cannot go by these e-mails that are there. I mean, I understand what it is that you`re saying. But nonetheless, we are not to jump the gun here because we see what happens when we do. We now have...

GRACE: What happens?

CHARLES: We now have a debacle, where this is not the person who killed her. The DNA didn`t match up. And so one of the things that we must learn from this is that you can`t necessarily jump the gun when it comes to dealing with defendants.

GRACE: You are taking a look at John Mark Karr as he left the sheriff`s helicopter -- the sheriff`s plane on his way to a Boulder, Colorado, courtroom, where it was determined DNA did not match.

To Jean Casarez. When will he show back up in California?

CASAREZ: Well, as of yesterday, it was 15 calendar days that California has to pick him up. And the process will be the district attorney of Sonoma County will call the district attorney of Boulder, saying, We are ready, and then California will have to provide the transportation to get him back there.

GRACE: Well, what do they have to do to get ready?

CASAREZ: What do they have to do?


CASAREZ: I think they just have to get paperwork in order, and they have to decide, with the holiday weekend, logistically, when they want to do it. So I think it could be any time. but the Boulder County sheriff is saying, Look, we`re not going to talk about it, and you`re not going to know when he`s going to be picked up.

GRACE: He may have been cleared through DNA of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, but the story`s not over yet for John Mark Karr. After listening to all of these tapes of him going on and on about his desire to have sex with, to discuss the murders of little children, including JonBenet Ramsey and Polly Klaas, it is very evident that further investigation is needed.

Take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not so much I`m concerned that they`re exploiting her, it`s just that I don`t -- I want them to get their bloody hands off her, is what I want. If I saw anything on the Internet about her, I would die! It would just be disgusting. Who are these disgusting strangers who would dare talk about her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that why you`ve been contemplating, basically - - you know, basically `fessing up? Or that`s the English phrase, confessing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to confess to anything. No one deserves a confession from me. No one deserves it.


GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Carol in Tennessee. Hi, Carol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is, what are John Karr`s teaching credentials, or is he just calling himself a teacher?

GRACE: Good question. Out to Jean Casarez. Jean, to get teaching credentials -- I got them myself in education -- you had to not only, for instance, get a major in another subject, but you had to get a teaching certificate or major in education. We also know that in his home state of Alabama, he had a license to have a child day care center in his home just six months after JonBenet was murdered. What are his qualifications. Do we know? They were certainly hiring him over in Bangkok.

CASAREZ: That`s right. You know, that`s a great question. I understand that he was in school to be credentialed as a teacher, but then he got a teaching job as sort of a substitute teacher, which you do not have to be fully credentialed for. During that job, that is when he lost that job in the South and then he never returned to school. So I do not think in any way he is fully credentialed as a teacher. And overseas, Nancy, I don`t think they credentials are necessary.

GRACE: Especially if you`re trying to teach English as a second language overseas. And also important for a day care or for a private school, their qualifications are not always the same as for public schools. That is how this guy was going from school to school to school.

Elizabeth, are you going to play the sound where he sings? Because I want to warn the viewers -- ouch!~ -- before they hear that. These are shots of John Mark Karr before he lasered his body and got rid of all the hair on his arms and his face. Right, Jean?

CASAREZ: Yes, that`s true. I saw him in court yesterday. I had to look, and he doesn`t have the hair on his arms anymore.


GRACE: OK. That hurt.

Here in the studio with me is a woman who is responsible for taking John Mark Karr to authorities at the get-go. She acted as an informant for Sonoma County, California, and secretly recorded volumes of John Mark Karr on the phone. With us, Wendy Hutchens. You can look her up on Along with her, her confidant, A.J. Fardella. Welcome to both of you.


GRACE: I`m sure this has been a complete media blitz for the two of you, and I want to thank you for being with us. First of all, you met Karr how?

WENDY HUTCHENS, HAD NUMEROUS TAPED CONVERSATIONS WITH KARR ON JONBENET: It was a matter of timing. I contacted Richard Allen Davis to clear up a matter about my baby-sitter because we both grew up in the same town, and he was...

GRACE: Let`s tell the viewers, Richard Allen Davis, the convicted killer of Polly Klaas, the daughter of Marc Klaas, and in fact, that is why John Mark -- oh, nice shot. There`s Richard Allen Davis. He took Polly Klaas out of her home the night of a sleepover party with her little girlfriends, molested her and murdered her.

John Mark Karr uprooted and moved his entire family, his young wife and three children, across the country to Petaluma, California, so they could be closer to the location where Polly Klaas was kidnapped, molested and murdered. We learned later that John Mark Karr visited Boulder, Colorado, year 2000. Why? He wanted to go up to JonBenet Ramsey`s home and touch the walls from the outside to get a psychic connection with the dead girl.

Back to Wendy Hutchens. So you wanted answers about your dead baby- sitter, and you thought Richard Allen Davis had those answers.

HUTCHENS: Yes. And he did, and he provided those answers to me, and that was -- that was just the end of it. But at that time, I had contacted a lady who visits death row inmates, and Karr had contacted her at the same time and...


HUTCHENS: Because he was trying to force Davis to listen to him, to take his letters to visit him, and Davis didn`t want anything to do with him.

FARDELLA: Because of the obsession with Polly Klaas.

HUTCHENS: Yes. So this lady...

GRACE: You mean John Mark Karr`s obsession...



GRACE: ... with Polly Klaas?


FARDELLA: Exactly.


HUTCHENS: And so this lady said, Well, since you knew Richard Allen Davis as a kid, maybe you could answer this guy`s questions and maybe get - - you know, try to get him to move on past this obsession, so...

GRACE: You know, there`s been a lot of speculation about how you got to know Karr to start with, and I`m glad you`ve explained it all tonight. When you first began talking to Karr, you thought it was all on the up and up, that he wanted to get in touch with Davis, and you were going to facilitate that. What happened?

HUTCHENS: Well, the first time I agreed to have a phone conversation with him, and he started talking and telling me the things -- I was, like, taking frantic notes because I immediately realized that this was really -- he was a strange person. He was really obsessed. And then towards the end of our conversation, he actually told me that he wanted to talk to me more but he didn`t want me to turn him in. And he said if I would give him a month of talking to him, for him to convince me what he was doing with little girls wasn`t wrong, that he would like to tell me about what he`d like to do.

GRACE: Why does he believe that having sex with little girls is not wrong?

HUTCHENS: He`s -- that`s just -- he`s really attracted to little girls, and he thinks that they`re -- that the perfect kind of love resides in them, that they have no prejudgments, you know, they don`t have any emotional baggage that they carry with them, you know, that kind of a thing. So he...

GRACE: He`s a fine one to be talking about emotional baggage.

Take a listen to one of the conversations Wendy recorded for police.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who else was I going to share that with? I`ve never driven by her house and said, There`s Polly Klaas`s house, I want that because I want her -- you know, I want her -- I mean, I want her so bad.




STEVE THOMAS, FORMER BOULDER DETECTIVE: If the police detectives, hypothetically, had gone to the district attorney`s office with an arrest warrant in this case, we would have been run out of town had we not been able to corroborate, substantiate, provide a nexus. There`s only three ways to solve a crime -- through witnesses, through evidence or through a confession. And they acted solely on confessionary statements from this 5150 (ph) cuckoo without any other corroboration, and it just simply boggles my mind.


GRACE: That is former detective Steve Thomas. He was on the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation from day one. He has never supported the intruder theory and had quite a bit to say about the arrest of John Mark Karr.

Out to a special guest joining us tonight, Jennifer Hill. You may recognize her. She was second runner-up for Miss America 1995 and has quite the opinion on child beauty pageants. Welcome, Jennifer. What do you make of the child beauty pageants, and what is the danger behind them?

JENNIFER HILL, MISS AMERICA `95 RUNNER-UP: You know, I have always been very against child beauty pageants. Io think -- I think what they do -- now, not all of them, but the ones that have the girls in the big hair and the make-up and the costumes -- I think that they sexualize children. I think set them up to be the sexual object. And then it comes down to who`s the prettiest, who`s the sexiest. And I just think that`s so wrong.

GRACE: And if you take a look at this contest where JonBenet was competing, you look out in the audience, it`s all dark. We have no idea who is sitting out there in the dark, watching these girls.

HILL: Right.

GRACE: It also gives video and photos that are released to the press, Jean Casarez, of these children. And even at a distance, pervs and child molesters like John Mark Karr can get their fill of these children, never being in the same room with them.

CASAREZ: Exactly. I know the question was posed, Well, how would he know about JonBenet Ramsey before she was murdered? Well, very easily because she was a little star because she had won some contests, especially in Michigan, and had been in a lot of them. And she`s -- as you can see, there`s video of her, and we don`t know exactly where that was distributed at the time.

GRACE: You`re seeing shots of JonBenet Ramsey. As you know, another catch-and-release by Boulder district attorney`s office of John Mark Karr. Has it forever ruined the chance of justice for this little girl? There may be hope.

Out to Mike Brooks, security analyst. First of all, how are they going to get him back to California, and when do you believe it will go down?

MIKE BROOKS, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it`s got to happen by at least 15 calendar days, Nancy. And they`ll probably go ahead and just bring a plane from the Sonoma County sheriff`s office or the state of California to bring him back, just like they did to bring him to Boulder from California.

But again, you know, the money that`s been wasted in this whole case right from the beginning by -- federal dollars, the state of Colorado and state of California, it`s disgusting. Listen to that detective just a few minutes ago. He`s right on target. They had absolutely nothing. The DA`s office and the investigators involved in this case are totally incompetent. There`s a lot of things they could have done prior to bringing him back to Boulder County.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What it amounts to is I think that most of us are capable of having any of those fantasies, and it`s hard for me to differentiate between what -- what they mean, you know? Instead of thinking she`s pretty, you start to think she`s sexy. I guess at that point, you`re probably having a sexual attraction to that child.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re maintaining custody of this gentleman. We`re making sure that he`s safe. We`re making sure he doesn`t escape and that the community`s safe. And we will do what the court asks us to do as far as this transfer to the California authorities.


GRACE: Confessed killer of JonBenet Ramsey headed to a California courtroom to answer up on child porn charges, as we speak, the sheriff`s office obtaining a new search warrant, trying to get a new search warrant to further investigate John Mark Karr. Did he do more than simply view child pornography?

To Jean Casarez. What is the maximum and the minimum he can do on these five charges alone, if they don`t get anything else on him?

CASAREZ: Well, it`s a good question. Now, a lot is sealed right now. The arrest warrant, the search warrant is all sealed as of two weeks ago, when that arrest was executed in Thailand. We don`t know everything, but I think there are some issues here we can discuss because you`ve got five counts of child porn. They are all the same offense date, all of them. So if it was argued that it was all one incident, one transaction on one day, that means it all could be rolled into one and all of the terms could be served together, meaning he could serve one year in jail.

Now, if you look alternatively and you look at the complaint, and it was the way it was filed was that they were all different offenses, all right? Now, we know that if there are different forms of child pornography, they all would be served separately, one after the other. We know they were all pictures on the Internet, but if they are different offenses, it could be argued they would have to be served consecutively. That means five years in jail.

GRACE: So what it boils down to is when John Mark Karr looked at these child porn images, was it one event of looking at the photos, or will this judge construe it to be five separate offenses? That way, the prosecutor can run a sentence one after the other consecutively.



LACY: Hindsight is 20/20. After the game is over, it`s easy to criticize what people have done and what decisions have been made. And the responsibility is mine, and I should be held accountable for all decisions in this case. You know, I`m out of here in two years, you know, unless they really do get me to resign in the meantime.

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: But you`re not out to get them, right?


KING: And you don`t think he started out to get you, right? He believes his theory.


JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: ... believes it, as flawed as it is. Let me ask this question.

THOMAS: Well, how about the convoluted sex crimes theory? I still haven`t heard that John. I had to explain my theory. Let`s hear this pedophile kidnapper.

J. RAMSEY: What Steve Thomas` theory is based on is that...

THOMAS: You`re not going to answer?

J. RAMSEY: ... our child wet her bed and we slaughtered her.


GRACE: Why does anyone kill a child? What reasonable motive is there? Often out of anger, resentment, stress, or could it be an intruder? Could the person that murdered JonBenet Ramsey have seen her at a pageant? Or did the danger come from a much closer source? From the parents being under an umbrella of suspicion, to a local Santa Claus, to a friend named Helgoth, to John Mark Karr, now released.

But speaking of Karr, it`s not over yet. As we speak, Sonoma sheriff trying to obtain another search warrant to further investigate his online activities, including, they believe, child pornography. If he disseminated -- translation: e-mailed -- just one of those photos, his charges will be kicked up to felony status.

Take a listen and a look at something that John Mark Karr wrote. A man now famous, Professor Tracey, he corresponded with him. In this e-mail to Tracey he says, "It seems I confided in a person about JonBenet and my love for little girls who turned out to be an informant. She recorded our phone conversations and met me with a wire on. It was pure deceit. I chose the wrong person. It cost me everything. I hate myself for having met this person and further sharing things with her."

That "her" is Wendy Hutchens, who took him straight to the police. She is with us tonight.

You know, we have taken a look -- I have taken a look at the conversations you had with him, and they are much worse than what we are playing for you on air, everybody. There are statements in here -- for instance, Mark Karr, "Well, good, because what it amounts to is I think it`s like having any other fantasy. It`s hard for me to differentiate between what they mean. If you see a little girl who is extremely gorgeous and pretty, and when she sits in front of you," and then he describes the child`s leg positions.

"And you see her, you know, her sweet little panties, and you see her thighs and her face, and you respond in a sexual way, you start thinking, `This child is sexy.`"

Now, listen. Trust me. I`m deleting the inappropriate verbiage and what this man says about little children, little girls like JonBenet, now dead. How did you stand this? It hurts me to even -- I won`t read it out loud.

WENDY HUTCHENS, SONOMA COUNTY POLICE INFORMANT: It was hard. It was so difficult that -- the thing was trying to get him connected to crimes that he had committed. And, you know, when you do these things to young children, the, you know, grooming of them and stuff like that, they often don`t realize that they`re being groomed for molestation.

So it was very hard for the Sonoma County sheriff`s department, who was trying to connect him to crimes and, in the meantime, had to keep him talking and trying to get him to give me as many details as possible. He talks about one child he lives with in particular and what he was doing with her...

GRACE: What?

HUTCHENS: Just kissing her all over, and how they had a boyfriend- girlfriend relationship. And he would get jealous of her when she would be playing with her little friends. And she would get jealous of him when he would be playing with her little friends. And so...

GRACE: How old was that child?

HUTCHENS: I believe she was 6 or 7 years old at the time.

GRACE: You mentioned three little German children?

HUTCHENS: Yes, I read on the Internet that, on his current resume he has up there, he brags about taking care of three little German girls -- they were like 5, 11 and 12 -- and talks about how part of his responsibility was to bathe them at night and put them to bed.

And I cried for hours after reading that. I mean, the fact that this man has been kicked out of the school in Honduras for inappropriate behavior with children, and another country he`s been kicked out of in the last five years, just, you know, validates the fact that this man is a predator. I mean, these tapes will give you the inside mind of a predator, of a child molester. This is what these guys are thinking.

GRACE: It`s amazing to me that he managed to slip through the cracks in Sonoma and end up drifting from one country to the next, ending in Bangkok. These are so detailed. And this is not just her word for it. These are actual taped phone conversations. Take a listen to this.


KARR: JonBenet. God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, that doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful.

Who else was I going to share that with? I`ve never driven by her house and said, "There`s Polly Klaas` house. I want that, because I want her -- you know, I want her -- I mean, I want her so bad.


GRACE: Do you hear that, Sonoma sheriff`s department? Do you hear that, Judge? It`s on you now to do something.

Let`s go out to the lines. Let`s go to Terry in Maine. Hi, Terry.

CALLER: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: Good, thank you, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: Well, I`m just wondering if his confessionary statements were based on getting extradited from Thailand. Did he do something in Thailand that has made him want to leave that country, that he might suffer more severe punishment had he stayed and been found dead?

GRACE: Terry, when I first heard he was confessing to the murder of JonBenet Ramsey in a Bangkok jail, I assumed wrongly that he had been arrested for some infraction there. For quite some time, U.S. authorities had been watching him. And apparently, he had began to groom a 5-year-old little girl there and was seen inappropriately speaking with her.

But he was not in jail. He had not been arrested in Thailand for any infraction. He was simply being deported. Now, a lot of people will tell you he was not in custody when he was on that plane, but he was. Simple deportation, then extradited -- these are legal terms -- from California to Colorado. That was not the reason he made the confession.

Out to Michelle in South Carolina, hi, Michelle.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question has to do with this sex change operation that`s...


GRACE: Oh, good lord.

CALLER: ... go under. Is this something these pervs do? Is it pretty common? I`ve not heard of it. Or do you think he actually wanted to be more like these girls that he idolized? He says he wanted Polly Klaas` house, and he wanted all these things.

GRACE: That`s a perfect question for Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist. We`ve gone from him wanting to be a publicity-seeker -- I never bought that one -- to being totally consumed with these little girls and their deaths, to wanting to make love with them in their coffin, to sex change. Explain.

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I`m sure that the removal of the hair on his arms is part of feminizing himself. He may have been considering a sex change operation. He wanted to merge with this very twisted, idealized, pure, virginal little girl feminine sexuality that`s the focus of his obsessions. It`s a very, very distorted idea of what sex and sexuality is about, coming from someone who cannot function as a healthy adult in any way whatsoever.

GRACE: When we get back, just how many little girl victims did John Mark Karr reveal in his conversations with Wendy Hutchens? And exactly how? And we`ll hear it from the forensic experts. Can police go back into his computer and recreate images from years before?

But tonight, let`s not just talk about it; let`s do something about it. I`m talking about child sex abuse. The Darkness to Light nonprofit organization is helping to end the epidemic of abuse. Using community prevent-a-thons, teaching adults how to prevent, how recognize, how to react to child sex abuse. Won`t you help? Go online to

And tonight, if you or someone you know is a victim, call 1-866-FOR- LIGHT.




J. RAMSEY: I would like an agency that knows more about child crimes than you did.

THOMAS: I think, John -- and if you`d let me finish the question, you have said you want federal law enforcement brought into crimes where a child has been killed. But in this case, you don`t want them brought in because they`re part of this great, vast conspiracy.

J. RAMSEY: I would have been -- you know, the biggest mistake I...

THOMAS: Why not now?

J. RAMSEY: Excuse me, Steve.

THOMAS: Why not now, John?

J. RAMSEY: The biggest mistake I made when this happened was that I didn`t call the FBI directly. I called the Boulder police.

THOMAS: They were there that day.

The Bible also says, without confession, there is no forgiveness.

Patsy, do you think...

J. RAMSEY: No, it doesn`t say that.

THOMAS: It doesn`t?

J. RAMSEY: Christ did not ask for repentance when he forgave his executers.

THOMAS: Without confession, there is no forgiveness. Do you think that God will forgive the person who did this?

PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: That`s up to that person and God.

J. RAMSEY: That`s up to God.

THOMAS: Do you support the death penalty for the person who is ultimately convicted of this crime?

J. RAMSEY: I do not support the death penalty because of the horrible flaws I`ve seen in our justice system. There are many, many innocent people on death row today because of people like Steve Thomas.


GRACE: A well-respected detective, Steve Thomas, on the "LARRY KING LIVE" show soon after JonBenet Ramsey was found dead in her home. So many questions still unanswered tonight. One thing we know: Sonoma County sheriffs trying to obtain a warrant to further investigate John Mark Karr.

Out to Jim Norris, forensic scientist, computer forensic expert -- Jim, thank you for being with us -- how can they, if they get the warrant, if the judge allows them to do it, how can they go back in time on this computer and recreate images he may have seen in 2001 maybe?

JIM NORRIS, FORENSIC SCIENTIST-COMPUTER FORENSICS EXPERT: Well, they can make an image of his hard drive, and that doesn`t change. And they`ve probably already done that. And then there are specialized computer programs that you use, and you can go in and basically look at the person`s complete history. How they used the Internet, what pictures they looked at, what e-mails they had. Did they contact people in chat rooms, et cetera? And because computers are time-based, all of that has date and time with it. And so it`s relatively simple to do, and it`s a routine thing that can be done.

GRACE: How far back can they go, Jim?

NORRIS: Well, it depends on how long the person`s owned the computer, but if the computer, for example, from 2000 has been in police custody since this time, they can use computer programs. And the Sonoma County sheriff is correct. The programs are much better now than they were in 2000. And they can go back and find pictures, even if Mr. Karr attempted to delete material. There will be traces of that there.

And generally, when you do an investigation like this, if you spend some time, you can find the material you`re looking for.

GRACE: Two Midwin Charles and Doug Burns, our two defense attorneys tonight, can they get a search warrant and prosecute him, Doug Burns, on what they find on his computer alone?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, absolutely. Why not? In other words, I`ve been in cases on both sides where you recover information from the computer and you go from there. The other point, though, is there are different gradations of these offenses, Nancy, obviously. So if you have one or two images and look at it just for your own usage and then you discard it, that`s different than trading back and forth, as you`ve been saying. So they need to sort that out.

GRACE: Trading it like baseball cards, Midwin Charles. Midwin, in your opinion, do you believe this judge is going to look at these five child porn images that we know of and say it`s five separate events and run the sentence consecutive or one event? He`ll walk out on time served. He`s already done six months.

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in light of the media pressure that has affected this case, it`s possible that he may look at them and decide to have him serve the sentences concurrently. He`s under a lot of pressure right now with what`s going on with this case. And so it`s entirely possible, Nancy.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, security analyst, is there any way to start from scratch in the JonBenet case?

MIKE BROOKS, SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Nancy, before I get to that, there`s also something else that they can do. The FBI office in California, the Sonoma County sheriffs can also go to them.

Each office now has a group there that deals with a group called Innocent Images. And they can go back, and they specialize in kiddie porn and computer crimes against children. So they`ll go back and also see if there`s any history within the FBI system of John Mark Karr in that.

Now, talking about, where do they go now? They`re going to have to go back and take a look at all of the evidence. Number one, the investigators who were working on this, on this particular case, bringing him back. You know, they just did a terrible job. They need to start from scratch and get new investigators in to take a fresh look at this.

GRACE: If it turns out they find nothing else on the computer, A.J. - - with us is A.J. Fardella -- what about the possibility of a civil commitment?

A.J. FARDELLA, WENDY HUTCHENS` FRIEND: Well, that`s the one lucky thing for the people of California and for everyone else that`s interested in seeing John Karr serve time in our penal institution. After he satisfies what you would consider to be his criminal obligation to serve his sentence, he`s given a psychological evaluation by someone from CDC, which is the California Department of Corrections, and they can hold him as a civil threat under civil laws and keep him incarcerated even after his sentence has been served. So luckily for us, this is going to happen in California where they have that system.

GRACE: To Wendy Hutchens, Wendy, after all of your conversations and you turning police informant, about how many children do you estimate he says he molested?

HUTCHENS: He claims to have molested hundreds of little girls, a lot of them in his car. So I would look at records of his car oil changes and stuff like that, because his car was his pride and joy, and he claims to have molested hundreds of little girls.

GRACE: And he would detail those to you?


GRACE: I want to go out very quickly, Jennifer Hill, you described the dangers of the child beauty pageants. What did they do to prep these kids for pageants?

JENNIFER HILL, MISS AMERICA `96 RUNNER-UP: Well, you know, they`re not all the same. Not all of them do this, but there are many that do. And they have the girls wear this big hair and all of this makeup. And sometimes they even put them in costumes to appear as if they have breasts at 4 and 5 years old. They teach them to walk in a sexy way, and these girls are taught how to be sexy at 4 years old.

GRACE: It`s like a field day for child molesters.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two-year-old Trenton Duckett is missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s only 2 years old. He`s precious. He`s really fun and loveable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police stay Trenton`s mom put him to bed at 7:00 on Sunday night. When she went in to check on him two hours later, he was gone. Detectives believe Trenton may have been taken from his bedroom window.


GRACE: Before we say good night tonight, can you help us find this little boy? Two years old, Trenton Duckett. Take a look at this little angel. Marilyn Aciego, reporter with "Daily Commercial," joining us from Leesburg, Florida, what`s the latest on Trenton?

MARILYN ACIEGO, REPORTER, "DAILY COMMERCIAL": There`s not much, Nancy. Police have been spending the past few days interviewing his family members and local registered sex offenders and said today that they`re going to broaden their search with the sex offenders.

GRACE: Marilyn, wasn`t he taken out of his own home? How did that happen?

ACIEGO: His mother laid him down around 7:00 Sunday night, sat down to watch a movie with two friends, got up to check on him around 9:00, discovered he was missing, searched the house, could not find him, called the police. And when the police came, they realized he was gone and his screen had been cut in his bedroom.

GRACE: Had there been any animosity between her and the husband?

ACIEGO: According to the Lake County public record, the two were married on July 3rd of 2005, but Trenton`s mother filed for divorce on June 14th of this year. And she also petitioned the court for an injunction for protection, but the case was continued. It has not been decided yet.

GRACE: Has he been cleared?

ACIEGO: The police aren`t saying anything. They`re saying that everybody is a suspect and they`re not leaning towards a stranger abduction or a family abduction. Right now, they`re really not telling us anything.

GRACE: The tip-line for this little boy, Trenton Duckett, 352-787- 2121, $5,000 reward. Went missing from his own bed, the screen window cut.

Tonight, let`s stop to remember Specialist Kyle Miller, just 19 years old, Wilmore, Minnesota. He joined the National Guard straight from high school, on his first tour of duty. He loved restoring old cars and spending time with family. He phoned home like clockwork from duty, just 19, Kyle Miller, American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you, to you, for being with us, inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.


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