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President Bush Details Changes at Guantanamo Bay Prison Involving High Profile Terrorists

Aired September 06, 2006 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: President of the United States. We were waiting for this speech all morning because we weren't quite sure what he was going to say about Guantanamo Bay and those high-profile prisoners and those secret CIA prisons. We didn't know if Gitmo was going to be shut down or if, indeed, a new legal system was going to be implemented to try and try some of these detainees. This is what we've learned, bottom line.
He has decided to transfer 14, as he has put it, of the most dangerous terrorists that they have had in custody and transfer them to Guantanamo Bay and he has submitted legislation to congress for the creation of military commissions to try these terrorists for war crimes.

What kind of impact that's going to have on all the other detainees that are there at Guantanamo Bay, what kind of impact it's going to have on these secret CIA prisons and what we all learn about how they operate and who is being held there and what kind of intelligence these terrorists can offer the U.S., well, we're trying to wave through all the new developments with a number of our players here today.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, as well as our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, among others, that we're going to talk to throughout the next two hours. But let's start with senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

Jamie, he started out really going into detail, I think, for the first time, on these terrorists that are being held in these secret prisons and what type of intelligence the U.S. military and the government gained from these individuals and how that led to a number of arrests, coups shall we say, for the United States in preventing further attacks and I guess justifying why they've done what they have done. And now because of the Supreme Court decision, we'll see them go through the legal process.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well you know, the interesting thing was earlier when we were operating on the basis of that initial ABC report it made it sound as if the secret prisons were going to be closed down with the transfer of these al Qaeda, high-ranking al Qaeda suspects to Guantanamo Bay, which is happening.

But what President Bush made clear is he is not ending what he called the CIA program. He didn't refer to them as secret prisons and that the CIA would continue to have available to it what he called alternate techniques for interrogation, which he insisted had been legally reviewed, were lawful, were tough, he said, but safe and did not constitute torture.

Nevertheless, those are different set of procedures than were announced by the Pentagon today for detainees in military custody. Now, those al Qaeda operatives who they say basically have gotten all the intelligence they think they're going to get from them, will now enter the military system and that system has been overhauled today to specifically prohibit mistreatment.

The Pentagon announced a directive on detainee policy that clearly spells out that all detainees shall be treated humanely and in accordance with the U.S. law, the law of war and applicable U.S. policy, including that section of the Geneva Convention that President Bush referred to, common article three. The director says all persons have to adhere to that, as well. The Pentagon made the case that techniques that are abusive or, in any way, you know, inhumane simply don't provide the kind of intelligence they need.

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LT. GEN. JOHN KIMMONS, ARMY DEP. CHIEF OF STAFF FOR INTEL: No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years tell us that.

So and moreover, any piece of intelligence which is obtained under duress, through the use of abusive techniques would be of questionable credibility and, additionally, it would do more harm than good when it inevitably became known that abusive practices are used and we can't afford to go there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: General John Kimmons was outlining the new army field manual, which will become the standard for interrogation procedures in the U.S. military, as required by the detainee treatment act passed by congress.

And it now goes into great detail about things that cannot be done based on past abuses, including prohibitions against forced nudity or sexual acts, the use of hoods or duct tape on the eyes, something we've seen for detainees, outlaws beatings, electric shock, any infliction of pain. Also the technique of water boarding, which the CIA has been accused of using, a technique that simulates drowning. In addition, banned hypothermia or heat distress, mock executions, withholding of food or water and the use of dogs, except for security.

But, again, the interesting part of what President Bush revealed today was that these prohibitions do not specifically apply to the CIA and while President Bush said at the moment, with the transfer of these detainees, there are no people in the CIA program.

He said it might be needed again in the future and he refused to spell out exactly what restrictions would apply to CIA personnel, except, again, to underscore that he said the techniques would be safe, lawful and do not constitute torture.

PHILLIPS: Now, Jamie, are you clear about when Gitmo could eventually be closed? The president said that he wants to do that, but not until all of these detainees go through the legal process, at least I think that's how I'm perceiving this. So, do you start with these high-profile terrorists, these 14 and then move through the 455 other detainees and then you can close down Gitmo? Could you get a sense of what he was saying about that?

MCINTYRE: Well I think the sense is, and I don't think this is an unfair inference, is that Gitmo is not going to close any time in the near future and he explained why. They will try some of the people, some of them will be returned to other countries, but there will be people that they will not be able to try because they don't have enough evidence and they won't be able to return to other countries.

And because of that, Guantanamo Bay has a long future as going to be, as president called it, a model prison, but a place where the U.S. is going to detain terror suspects for quite a long time to come. It's a goal to close Guantanamo Bay, but it's not a goal for which the end is in sight any time soon.

PHILLIPS: And just to add to that, Jamie, it's because a number of these countries don't want to take these detainees back, correct? And they can't guarantee that if, indeed, they do take them back that they're not going to commit any acts of terrorism again, once they're free?

MCINTYRE: Well that's true. And you heard President Bush say that the allegation is as many as a dozen of the people who have been released thinking that they don't constitute a threat have turned up on the battlefield again. It's hard to verify some of those claims sometimes, but undoubtedly it's true at least in some cases.

But also the U.S. government is criticized when it does turn over people to other countries, countries that maybe don't have the same standards as the U.S. So it's sort of a two edge sword. You're criticized for not turning them over, releasing them, but you also can be criticized if you release them to a government that does practice abusive techniques or torture.

PHILLIPS: Jamie McIntyre, thanks so much for just helping us get through all this. Appreciate it.

Let's get some insights from CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey, what do we know about the creation of military commissions? Is that the same thing as a tribunal? Is it -- how is it different, similar to the court system here in the United States?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the president was not very specific about what procedures ...

PHILLIPS: I think your mic -- is your mic on, Jeffrey? That's OK. It fell off. We're going to work on getting that. No problem. We're going to get Jeffrey mic'd up in just a second here and talk about just the legal aspects of the creation of the military commission to try terrorists for war crime.

If you're just tuning in, the president just finished up his speech on what he has said as part of a major announcement with regard to 14 high-profile al Qaeda terrorists.

You saw the pictures there of the three, the high-value suspected terrorists: Khalid Shaikh Mohammed believed to be the number three al Qaeda leader before he was captured in Pakistan in 2003; Ramzi Binalshibh, an alleged would-be September 11, 2001 hijacker; and Abu Zubaydah, who was believed to be a link between Osama bin Laden and many al Qaeda cells before he was also captured in Pakistan in March of 2002.

Just three of the 14 high-value suspected terrorists on the way to Gitmo to be tried in what the president is hoping will be established, the creation of military commissions. Jeffrey, did I give you enough time?

TOOBIN: Yes, yes, you did. Kyra, you know how microphones are. Sometimes they're there when you want them and sometimes they're not.

PHILLIPS: Sometimes they're on when you want them, sometimes they're not.

TOOBIN: Exactly.

PHILLIPS: But anyway, let's play out how this could work.

TOOBIN: Well, what we have to see now is what the proposal actually says, because the president has said, look, the Supreme Court -- I thought in rather caustic terms he talked about the Supreme Court. He said, look, they imposed all these requirements on us, they said the Geneva Conventions apply to how we treat prisoners, and the Geneva Conventions are pretty vague, which they are.

But here is our best effort, this proposal to comply with the Geneva Convention so that everybody knows what the rules oaf the game are, both for interrogation and for trials. And that's what the -- that's what the proposal he is sending to Congress will do.

An interesting point of potential conflict, the proposal in Congress, which has been sponsored by two senior Republicans -- Senator McCain and Senator Warner, the chairman of the Armed Services Committee -- they have said that the accused detainees have to be able to see all the evidence against them. The president didn't make that commitment.

We'll have to see whether that proposal that he sent will include that, because that could be a big point of contention with Congress over just how much of the evidence the detainees will get to see.

Those are the kind of issues that are likely to be very controversial as they're played out in Congress and because of what the Supreme Court said in June, the president can't do anything on these commissions. He can't have a trial, can't bring anybody up on charges unless Congress also approves the procedures. So, that's the big impediment now.

PHILLIPS: How -- OK, let's just say -- well, what could be -- what could be the whole -- you brought up some of the concerns. I guess I have two questions here. If, indeed, Congress says, OK, this sounds like a good idea, we think this will work, let's prove it, how fast could this happen? How fast could it be created and all of a sudden we start hearing and seeing these suspected terrorists being held accountable for what they've done?

TOOBIN: Well, as with most questions about the legal system, the answer is not very fast, because these are -- will be extremely complicated trials, especially of the senior figures that the president says he wants to bring to trial first, people like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

The evidence against them will be very complicated to assemble. That will have to be presented to the defense in some way. The defense will undoubtedly challenge these procedures as the previous military commissions were challenged.

So it seems to me very unlikely that these trials -- even if Congress passes the legislation before the election, which I don't think is any sure deal, but even if Congress does do that and the president signs it, late next year would probably be the earliest any of these trials could begin.

And as I think you and Jamie pointed out earlier, it's not just these 14 CIA detainees who are going to have to go on trial, it's some number of the 455 who are already there. So, the president, obviously, is considering keeping Guantanamo open and this legal system in business, got to be for several more years. So, this problem of what to do with the detainees is almost certainly going to wind up in the lap of his successor.

PHILLIPS: Well, and final point, I think that that's what a lot of Americans, journalists, politicians, so many people around the world want to know. What did these detainees do? How much do they know? How much have they helped this war on terror? Did they offer up a lot of good intel to prevent another 9/11?

TOOBIN: And I think the president did a very smart thing by beginning his speech by saying, look, this is why we do interrogations. You know, so much of the attention on Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib has been about interrogation techniques and possible abuses by American service personnel. The president said, hey, let's focus on the other side of the equation.

We've gotten good, useful information. And I think that is something that he is going to want to keep in the forefront of the debate while others will want to talk about America's reputation in the world and our reputation for fairness and due process. So, those are going to be playing out in Congress sooner rather than later.

PHILLIPS: Our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Thanks so much, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: See you, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Democrats versus Donald Rumsfeld. A no confidence measure is in the works in the Senate. Get the story from the CNN NEWSROOM straight ahead.

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PHILLIPS: Surgery isn't winning Donald Rumsfeld any sympathy points on Capitol Hill. Senate Democrats are pushing a symbolic no- confidence vote which wouldn't cost Rumsfeld his job, but would embarrass the White House, the Pentagon and many Senate Republicans.

Our Dana Bash is following the story on Capitol Hill. So, Dana, what would the fallout be then?

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you just summed up exactly what the objective is from the Democrats. This is a sense of the Senate resolution that they have just put on the Senate floor within the past 15 minutes or so. It is non-binding and it is never going to come for a vote, but that's not the point. It is, of course, two months before election year.

Democrats have decided that nobody sums up or symbolizes their arguments against the Bush administration and the Iraq war than Donald Rumsfeld. So this resolution says President Bush needs to change course in Iraq to provide a strategy for success. One indication of a change, of course, would be to replace the current Secretary of Defense. That's what the resolution says.

The Senate Democratic leader, Harry Reid, went to the Senate floor to introduce it. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HARRY REID (D), MINORITY LEADER: We should remember the secretary's mistakes are not all buried in the past. Just last week he demonstrated again he has is not the man for the job. As he spoke to the American Legion this became very clear. His remarks were wrong, they were unnecessary and they were a slap in the face to every American. Rumsfeld's speech was filled with reckless, irresponsible assertions.

But the most insulting and misguided words compared the critics of the Bush administration's Iraq policy to those who appease the Nazis, leading to World War II. A statement made by our Secretary of Defense. These assertions were offensive and indicative of a Secretary of Defense who has lost his way, who is not capable of overseeing America's defense or certainly a new direction in Iraq, who is more concerned, it seems, with the Bush administration's political fortunes than the safety and security of the American people, and who must be replaced.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BASH: Now, Senator Reid also summed up what the Democratic political strategy is here by saying this amendment is bigger than Donald Rumsfeld. It is about changing course in Iraq. He said the president demonstrating to the American people he understands that America cannot stay the course and when the president of course is taking our country in the wrong direction. So there you have the senators on the Senate floor. You see Senator Chuck Schumer who is in charge of getting Democrats elected and re-elected this year. He is making his comments, as we speak.

As you can imagine, Kyra, Republicans were on hand to rush to the floor to defend Secretary Rumsfeld. Senior Republicans like Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska are saying that this is just politics, what Democrats are engaging in, and also defended the secretary, saying, I can't think of anyone who works harder as the Secretary of Defense than Secretary Rumsfeld. But, so, this is going to go on for the next couple hours.

We expect it to end, again, without a vote, but this is a Democratic strategy to try to really put the pressure -- couple things. Put the pressure on some Republicans, Republican candidates to perhaps come out and oppose Secretary Rumsfeld and, by extension President Bush. A couple actually already have, like Tom Kean, running for Senate in the state of New Jersey.

But it's also one other thing. And that is two months to election day, what Democrats feel that they need to do is energize their base, make sure that they get out to vote and make sure they see their leaders, like you see on the Senate floor right now, trying to be aggressive in holding the administration's feet to the fire.

Leaders here think that is a key way to make sure that their base gets out and vote, and that is going to be obviously the way to reach their goal in what a lot of people are predicting, which is that they could see some serious gains when it comes November.

PHILLIPS: Dana, just quickly, you're hearing these leaders say Donald Rumsfeld is not the man. Has anybody come forward and say, this is the person for the job?

BASH: Interesting, no. They have not said that. And certainly there has been a lot of talk and speculation about other people who could be in that job, but people for some time have said, and not necessarily Democrats, but there has been, sort of in the rumor mill, that Senator Joe Lieberman might be somebody who President Bush might, in the event that Secretary Rumsfeld were to leave, that he would be somebody who could be in that job.

But at this point it's important to note that at the White House, they're saying, this is just not going to happen. Secretary Rumsfeld is not going to go, so there's no point in talking about who his replacement is going to be.

PHILLIPS: Dana Bash on the Hill. Thanks.

Later in the NEWSROOM, one on one with Donald Rumsfeld. Frank Sesno spent time with the defense secretary as part of an upcoming "CNN PRESENTS." Frank will join me in the 3:00 hour to talk about the conversation.

Also straight ahead, a father remembers the Crocodile Hunter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB IRWIN: Steve and I weren't like father and son. We never were. We were get good mates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: He says his son was just an ordinary bloke, but he led an extraordinary life.

More straight ahead, CNN NEWSROOM.

Plus, lost for almost half her life. Can a young Austrian woman ever find herself again? Going public with a riveting story of kidnap, imprisonment and escape. All that straight ahead from the NEWSROOM.

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PHILLIPS: Not to mention Hollywood's hot, hot hair stylist. It turns out this Suri does have a pile of fringe on top, it's not the shot that has everyone talking. "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" host A.J. Hammer joins me now. Do you like that version?

A.J. HAMMER, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": I do like that version. That was very well done. And here it is. It's undeniable, Kyra, at this point. We now know Suri Cruise exists. It has been four-and-a-half months since she was born. Since no one had seen any pictures, well, quite frankly, the world was beginning to wonder.

Well, all the speculation finally put to rest with this. As Suri makes her debut in this month's "Vanity Fair" magazine with a 22-page family album which that was shot by legendary photographer Annie Leibovitz. Now we spoke with "Vanity Fair"'s Jane Sarkin, who was right there for the photo session, which took place at the couple's Telluride, Colorado property. Sarkin say no money changed hands for the shoot and that there was a very friendly, family atmosphere.

Cruise's sister was there and her children. And since Tom and Annie had worked together before, in fact, for the very first time, all the way back in 1984, everybody felt very comfortable. So of course, the big question is, why did Tom and Katie wait so long for this. Well, Sarkin from "Vanity Fair" told us that the couple had originally planned to do this right from the time Tom was finished promoting "Mission Impossible III."

In fact, they had taken a bunch of their own photos and were planning to put them out there. But then they were so hurt by all of the rumors and the, where's Suri, and, does Suri exist that they basically, Kyra, held off and retreated to Telluride, Colorado. But there we have it, at long last, Suri Cruise, isn't she lovely? PHILLIPS: She's a cutie pie. I think she looks more like mom. What do you think?

HAMMER: I think you've got a little bit of both. But the face, yes, I think it's more Katie Holmes than Tom Cruise.

PHILLIPS: Well, what else is coming up tonight?

HAMMER: Well, much more on this of course, Kyra, because we are TV's most provocative entertainment news program, so we'll be talking about why Katie Homes has been very candid and what she said very candidly about why she was so frustrated with the media and why they waited so long to put these pictures out there.

Catch "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" at 11:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN Headline Prime.

PHILLIPS: Sounds good. Thanks, A.J.

HAMMER: Thanks a lot, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: "Vanity Fair" photos -- Tom, Katie and Suri Cruise -- Larry King's got them all and he's showing them tonight. CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE," tonight at 9:00 Eastern.

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PHILLIPS: No state funeral for the crocodile hunter. Steve Irwin's father says the family will decline the Australian government's offer because his son wouldn't have wanted such a grand send-off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB IRWIN, STEVE IRWIN'S FATHER: He was an ordinary guy. He was just like a guy in the street. And he just had this ability to get through to people. Steve and I weren't like father and son, we never were. We were good mates. I'll remember Steve as my best mate ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Well, a massive shrine of flowers, notes and personal mementos has sprung up outside Irwin's Australia Zoo. Tributes also have flooded the web. Steve Irwin clips are some of the most popular on video sites such as YouTube right now.

Why me? We've all said those words, right? But this young woman has compelling reason to ask. Natascha Kampusch was just ten years old when she was kidnapped. She spent the next eight-and-half years in her captor's basement before the dramatic escape that made news around the world.

Tonight, she went public in a T.V. interview broadcast in Austria. She's also given print interviews saying she thought only of escape, and denying any rift with her parents, although she's not living with them. Kampusch also says that she wants to finish her education. She hasn't decided whether to write a book or not at this point.

A polygamist preacher gets his day in court, likely the first of many. Details on Warren Jeffs' initial appearance and the long legal road ahead. Live report ahead in CNN NEWSROOM.

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