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Nancy Grace

Photos, Toys, Sonogram Found Outside Melinda Duckett`s Apartment; Abby Woods Found Alive

Aired September 20, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight to Florida -- a parent`s worst nightmare, a 2-year-old boy reportedly snatched from his crib while his mom watched a movie in the very next room. Then mom commits suicide. Stunning and disturbing developments tonight, police now confirming a search of the trash dumpster near Melinda Duckett`s apartment revealed Trenton`s baby photos, his toys, his toy box, baby food and a sonogram of baby Trenton all thrown way in the trash the same day baby Trenton reported missing.
And tonight to Lonedell, Missouri -- 12-day-old baby Abby Woods found alive after a female intruder entered the baby`s home, attacked her mom, slashing her throat, leaving her for dead. Tonight, the alleged female attacker behind bars, her story unraveling.

But first tonight, to Florida and the search by land, by water for 2- year-old Trenton Duckett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Leesburg Police Department is still searching for the whereabouts of little Trenton. This has been and remains our primary mission. Anyone who may have information is asked to call 1- 800-CALL-FBI.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Where is baby Trenton? The mystery only becomes deeper as we find tonight police confirming baby Trenton`s toys, his toy box, a sonogram we believe of Trenton himself, his baby food, photos of baby Trenton, all thrown away in the dumpster next to his mother`s apartment.

Let`s go out to "Daily Commercial" reporter Marilyn Aciego joining us. Marilyn, what can you tell us about what was found in the dumpster?

MARILYN ACIEGO, "DAILY COMMERCIAL": Well, like you said, Nancy, there were several photos of Trenton found, including the sonogram photos, toys, a toy box. This isn`t something you would think a mother would throw away if she thought her son was coming home.

GRACE: Is it true that there was actually baby food, as well?

ACIEGO: Yes, there was. And police are saying that it was possible she may have just been cleaning out the refrigerator. They`re not -- they don`t seem to be holding too much ground to that because it may have been possible she was just cleaning out pantries, cleaning out cabinets and things of that nature.

GRACE: Oh, maybe I`m crazy, but I don`t keep baby photos in the pantry or the refrigerator. So how are they explaining that, Marilyn?

ACIEGO: The only thing they`ll tell us now, Nancy, is that that`s one of the things that definitely elevated their suspicion about Melinda`s possible involvement in his disappearance.

GRACE: Marilyn Aciego joining us, with "The Daily Commercial" She is there on the scene. Marilyn, I want to get to the sonogram. Are we positive it`s baby Trenton`s sonogram? What was the date on that sonogram?

ACIEGO: I haven`t been able to find out a date as of yet, Nancy. I have not seen the sonogram myself. But I have sources working on trying to find out the date on that for me.

GRACE: And what can you tell us about reports that there was freshly painted -- there were freshly painted walls in Melinda Duckett`s apartment?

ACIEGO: There were freshly painted walls. She was very upfront with the police from the very beginning that she had painted. And they have yet to be able to find any forensic evidence linking the painted walls to the disappearance of Trenton.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got a question. Which rooms were painted?

ACIEGO: They will not tell us.

GRACE: When were the toys found? When was all this found in the dumpster?

ACIEGO: When was it found?

GRACE: Yes.

ACIEGO: Within a day of Trenton being reported missing.

GRACE: OK, question. Marilyn, how do we know that the items were discarded in the dumpster the day he was reported missing? When were the items -- when was the dumpster last emptied?

ACIEGO: I haven`t checked to see when the dumpster was emptied, but police found these items within a day of Trenton being reported missing.

GRACE: Is it true, Marilyn -- with us, Marilyn Aciego, joining us from Leesburg, Florida, the hometown where baby Trenton was taken reportedly out of his apartment. She`s with "The Daily Commercial." Marilyn, I want to get back to the toys. There`s toys, toy box, baby food, photos of Trenton. What else did they find? I heard something about trash bags, unused trash bags?

ACIEGO: There was a nearly full unused box of trash bags that was also recovered, along with the photos and the sonogram picture and the toys. But as of yet, those trash bags have not been linked to any other evidence found in any other places. Basically, they haven`t linked that set of trash bags to the trash bag that was found in the Ocala National Forest.

GRACE: Joining us also, Court TV`s news correspondent, Jean Casarez. Jean, I gathered that much last night, when Captain Rockefeller said, regarding the trash bag found at Lake Farles -- Marilyn Aciego had been there at Lake Farles, the lake that they were search searching the bottom. He said, no, this trash bag was white, which made me believe that there were black trash bags found. It`s very unusual, Jean, that an entire box of unused plastic trash bags were thrown away. What else do we know about the items discarded?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, we know the trash bags, they`re saying, an almost full box of trash bags. They won`t confirm how many were taken out, but you`re right, they will not confirm the color of those trash bags, but as they told you, it`s not like a white one that was found at that lake.

I think the sonogram is significant, also, the toys, the toy chest. They`re saying the toy box was actually like a toy chest. And then the photos of baby Trenton. But as far as the sonogram, they are not confirming that it is Trenton`s sonogram. They are not confirming what the date is. So that, at this point, is still a bit of a mystery. But when you put it with everything else, obviously, it veers in one direction.

GRACE: To Marilyn Aciego. Let`s talk about the sonogram for a moment. We don`t know if it`s baby Trenton`s sonogram. Was it in the same trash bag along with all of Trenton`s other belongings?

ACIEGO: Police have told us that it was found along with the other belongings. Whether it was in the same trash bag or not, they have not confirmed, but it was found. They felt it was part of the same trash.

GRACE: Interesting. So this sonogram may or may not be that of baby Trenton, and it was found in Melinda and Trenton Duckett`s belongings. Very interesting.

Let`s go straight out to our G-men tonight, all formerly with the FBI, all well respected in their fields -- Mike Brooks, Don Clark, Jack Trimarco. To you, Mike Brooks. What does it mean?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I`ll tell you what, Nancy, it just -- it means to me, as an investigator, why they focused on her right from the beginning. You know, they talked about the -- kind of the hierarchy, if you will, with the husband, Josh, the stranger abduction theory. And that`s why they`re focusing on her because of things they found in that dumpster. They will take all of those things, Nancy, and have them evaluated for fingerprints, all kind of other evidence, but -- so they`ll know who exactly put those bags in that dumpster and who actually handled those things before they were put in that dumpster.

And Nancy, there was a witness, apparently, that saw one of the males who had been with her that evening taking one of the bags and discarding it in a dumpster before taking her to the Leesburg Police Department to be interviewed. And what she went -- and it says in the affidavit in support of a search warrant that she did not go willingly to police. So again, more and more suspicion towards Melinda Duckett.

GRACE: Wait. Did I just hear you say she did not go willingly to police?

BROOKS: And Nancy, yes, that`s exactly what I said, and it`s articulated in the affidavit in support of the search warrant for her apartment.

GRACE: I`ve got that affidavit right here in my hand. Very disturbing that even the baby food, baby crackers, candy, other snacks, removed from the fridge and thrown out. What about it? Out to you, Don Clark.

DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON OFFICE: You know, Nancy, this has got to be so frustrating for the investigators that`s in that command post and the people that`s out in the field because here you have so much evidence, so much inconsistency, yet you don`t have that one piece of thread that`s going to link this entire thing together. So they`ve got to just continue to dig hard and keep through and do this target searching, so hopefully -- and target talking to people throughout the community, so that they can find that one little piece.

Nothing that Melinda has done here that I`ve seen has seemed to be consistent with a mother grieving about her kid being missing. And I don`t think throwing away valuables, food, clothing and that type of thing would do anything. But Mike hit it on the head. Fingerprints that`s on there about the little guy and about her will be found and be beneficial. But also, the lack of fingerprints of anybody else is going to be significant, too, as to who actually threw this away and what other person could have had some involvement.

GRACE: Right. Speaking of fingerprints -- to you, Jack Trimarco. Jack, I also understand that a partial fingerprint has been lifted off the windowsill -- repeat, windowsill -- which suggests to me the inside. How much is a partial print going to help?

JACK TRIMARCO, FORMER FBI PROFILER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Well, Nancy, a partial print`s going to help tremendously. Of course, we`re looking for a person who should not have their print in that location. I still think that a lot is going to rest on the forensic examination of the screen, showing whether a baby that size could have fit through the screen, and of course, whether it was cut from the inside or the outside. Oftentimes, civilians, especially if they don`t watch "CSI," don`t think that that might be a critical part of the puzzle.

This is starting, Nancy, to smell -- actually, to stink -- more and more like the Susan Smith case. As you might recall, Susan hated her ex- husband so much that even though she didn`t want her children anymore, she wouldn`t give them to him, and so she took their lives. And this is starting to run parallel to that.

GRACE: Here`s what police had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over the past few days, there has been media focus concerning portions of Melinda Duckett`s apartment being freshly painted the weekend of the reported abduction. Melinda informed investigators about the painting from very early on in the investigation. When the forensic search at the apartment was performed, the fresh paint was taken into consideration. Nothing was found forensically to indicate the paint covered up evidence of a criminal act, and the Leesburg Police Department will not speculate that the painting had something to do with the crime.

The Leesburg Police Department is still searching for the whereabouts of little Trenton. This has been and remains our primary mission. We still need any information about Melinda or Trenton`s whereabouts from Saturday afternoon, August 26, to any time on Sunday August 27.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Amy in Pennsylvania. Hi, Amy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m wondering what kind of responsibility child protective services have because I know they`ve dropped the ball in Florida before.

GRACE: Well, frankly, Amy, I believe DFACS (ph) has dropped the ball all across the country. I had so many cases where children were mistreated, burned with cigarettes, beaten, not fed, and they were never taken out of the home. Then they end up dead.

Let`s go back out to Jean Casarez, Court TV news correspondent. Jean, what can you tell us about DFACS actually taking the child out of the home for four days?

CASAREZ: That`s right. There was an alleged incident outside of a shopping mall, where Melinda and her ex-husband at the time were having an argument about money, and she allegedly took the neck of the little baby and appeared to try to break it or turn it. At that point, I believe child protective services took the child. An investigation was had, and they could find no visible injuries to the child at all.

GRACE: It`s my understanding, Marilyn Aciego -- Marilyn`s with "The Daily Commercial" -- at that juncture, she allegedly threatened to snap the baby`s neck, that later, no one found any bruises or marks on the baby. But whatever happened, Marilyn, it was enough to take the baby away from Melinda Duckett. How did she get the baby back?

ACIEGO: After DCF investigated and found that there was -- that, basically, the claims seemed to be unfounded, they gave the baby back. That`s pretty -- that`s pretty normal in Florida.

GRACE: OK, let`s take a look back at this affidavit on the search warrant. Let`s unleash the lawyers tonight. Tonight, joining us two veteran lawyers, Hillah Mendez out of the Florida jurisdiction, Asuncion Hostin out of the New York jurisdiction. Welcome, ladies. First to you, Asuncion. Let`s talk about an affidavit supporting a search warrant. Explain.

ASUNCION HOSTIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, basically, in order to get a search warrant, especially into someone`s home, you need an affidavit from a law enforcement official, someone who says that there`s probable cause, or can prove -- show probable cause to a judge, that there`s probable cause for the affidavit for a search warrant. And in this case, it really outlines a lot of the facts that led a judge to sign this affidavit, or rather, to sign the search warrant, and have the law enforcement go and really look through the home and find all sorts of interesting things.

GRACE: OK. And Hillah, your hair looks great.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Let`s talk about this affidavit supporting the search warrant. It`s very, very detailed. And you know, sometimes, Asuncion is pointing out how it happens -- sometimes, cops go in front of the judge and they get sworn in and they`ll add stuff to this affidavit as to why they should get a search warrant. There could be more evidence than we know about that`s in this affidavit, right?

HILLAH MENDEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, no. Of course. I mean, the affidavit for a search warrant is a probable cause affidavit, which basically means that all they have to do is what is a low-lying level in order to show probable cause for a potential crime that`s been committed. And in this case, it`s the disappearance of a child. So all they have to do is outline that exact basis that`s there, and nothing more.

There may very well be a lot more evidence. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn`t. And usually, the police departments will try and withhold something for exact reasons such as this, which is that the affidavit is a public record and there are (INAUDIBLE) and it`s right (ph) for people to discuss.

GRACE: When we get back, we`re going back to Florida, the search by land, the search by water. As you know, the bottom of Lake Farles, Florida, was dragged, was searched with side-scan sonar, 39 objects of interest. What did police find? What do we know about more of her blogging? What does it reveal? And is there a chance baby Trenton st still alive tonight? We have not given up, and I hope you have not, either.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Final photos of cover girl Anna Nicole Smith with her newborn baby girl and 20-year-old son, Daniel, taken just before Daniel passed away at a Bahamas hospital. Autopsies tonight rule out suicide, foul play and natural causes, apparently leaving only accident. A private pathologist hired to conduct the second autopsy contends Smith`s son had anti-depressants in his system. Tonight, toxicology tests still pending.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSHUA DUCKETT, MISSING BOY`S FATHER: It hurts a lot because I don`t know where my son`s at, OK? That`s the worst part, would have to be not knowing. I`m 100 percent confident that somebody`s out there, that they know something. They`re just not coming forward with the information that we need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Where is baby Trenton tonight? We are live in Florida and the search by land and water for the 2-year-old missing boy. Let`s take a look at the blogs by Melinda Duckett. What, if anything, can we learn from them? Let`s put them up for the viewers.

"I feel sick, bad news." That`s July 6. Let`s move on to the next blog. "Honestly, I kind of think we should revise dinner choices. I`m feeling sick. I need something healthier. For some reason, I feel tired." Then we go on to June 4, I believe. "Feeling sick. I think I was sick from breakfast. But I haven`t eaten a good morning meal in a long time."

Moving on, July 25. "I think I got sick off the food. I gone (ph) there. I feel queasy." Moving on. "I`m fixing to fall over from a stomach ache and feeling badly right now." And moving on. "And my stomach still hurts. I can`t believe the big change that has happened in the last few days."

Out to Jean Casarez. The blogging, the queasiness, the sickness -- what was going on in the life of Melinda Duckett? Will the autopsy reveal anything?

CASAREZ: Well, that`s a good possibility. We`ll have to see if it will reveal. Also, remember, one fact we know, the sonogram -- they won`t confirm what that sonogram was of or who it was of. And if you put common sense together, there could possibly be a correlation there.

GRACE: Let`s go back out to the G-men. You know, all three of these gentlemen were former FBI workers, all well respected when they left the FBI. Out to Mike Brooks. Nothing can be excluded. We don`t know anything right now. What do you make of the blogging?

BROOKS: Well, we don`t know. The bloggings are -- kind of show her state of mind, Nancy, but there`s a lot of things that they haven`t come back with the computer analysis yet. And going to be I`m anxious to see if she was writing to people after Trenton was reported missing, to see whether or not she was speaking of him in the present or the past tense.

One other important thing, too, Nancy, with the food that was discarded. Was that baby food? What was the expiration date on that baby food? And you know, sometimes, Nancy -- I was a hostage negotiator and a crisis intervener, and sometimes, some people will get their things in order as part of a suicide ritual. You know, that`s always a possibility that has to be considered by investigators also in this particular case.

GRACE: But why -- to Michael Nuccitelli, forensic psychologist. What is the meaning of throwing out photos of the baby?

MICHAEL NUCCITELLI, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s really difficult to make any prediction on what the meaning -- I mean, if you think about it, I mean, this is a woman who proclaimed her undying love to her child and they were inseparable. I mean, it`s not outside the realm of possibility that in such a distraught state, that in a very erratic, irrational behavior, she threw stuff out. But given all the inconsistencies...

GRACE: That -- you know what? That doesn`t even make sense, Michael. Look, I know I`m no shrink...

NUCCITELLI: Well, Nancy...

GRACE: ... I`m just a lawyer, but when you say, My baby`s been pulled through the window, he`s missing -- oh, PS, would you empty the trash before you leave?

NUCCITELLI: Yes, but Nancy...

GRACE: That doesn`t make sense!

NUCCITELLI: Yes, but Nancy, does any of this make any sense? I mean...

GRACE: No, no, no, no, no, no!

NUCCITELLI: ... when you`re thinking about this young woman...

GRACE: No.

NUCCITELLI: I mean, what would be...

GRACE: Michael!

NUCCITELLI: ... the rationale for throwing stuff into a dumpster, a sonogram, baby`s toys, a toy box? There`s really no way to actually predict...

GRACE: I`m asking you...

NUCCITELLI: ... why this would occur right now.

GRACE: I`m not asking you to predict. There`s no way we can apply logic to the behavior of someone that commits suicide.

NUCCITELLI: Correct.

GRACE: It`s illogical. It`s beyond our reasoning. I`m asking you, typically, what it means to throw out the possessions, the food and the photos belonging to someone else.

NUCCITELLI: Well, Nancy, as I`m saying, it`s not a typical behavior, it`s a rare occurrence. There`s many possibilities for why it occurs. The fact that we don`t have her to be able to interview to try to get to the bottom of it, there`s no way to know. It`s not a typical behavior.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We still want the picture of Trenton in the news. We still want to narrow down the timeline of Melinda and Trenton in that 27 hours or so before his reported abduction. And it`s very important that we keep this picture out there, we keep her picture out there, because she`s not here to tell us and he`s not here to tell us, and we`ve got to know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Stunning developments tonight in the search for baby Trenton Duckett. As you know, Lake Farles has been searched, 39 points of interest.

Out to Marilyn Aciego. What did we learn? What did they pull up from the bottom of the lake?

ACIEGO: All they pulled up today, Nancy, were beer bottles and a golf ball. It was nothing but garbage. And Marion County released today that as far as they`re concerned, the search of the lake and the search of the Ocala National Forest is over because they have found nothing to link it to Trenton.

GRACE: You know, I`ve got a couple of other questions regarding that timeline. But before -- first of all, I want to find out what business in Leesburg, Florida, is open at 8:00 o`clock in the morning when she was spotted without Trenton Duckett? I want to find that out. I`m thinking, 7-Eleven, a Denny`s, a car wash? What`s open at 8:00 o`clock in the morning where that credible witness spotted her?

But I want to go back to throwing out the baby photos the day the baby goes missing, after he`s reported missing.

But first to the lines. Let`s go to Jodi in Texas. Hi, Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to know if Melinda`s grandparents are actually cooperating with this investigation, or are they acting like Melinda did with the evasive answers or refusal to cooperate?

GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Marilyn Aciego? Grandparents cooperating, yes?

ACIEGO: Yes, they have. And even -- the grandfather even took a lie- detector test in the very beginning, and he passed it.

GRACE: And out to Jean Casarez. What do the grandparents have to say about these recent developments?

CASAREZ: Well, I think the grandparents are helping police and are just heart-felt and identifying anything they can, that yes, indeed, it was baby Trenton`s.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In family abductions or in many abductions, you have to look from the inside out and investigate all facets of that and all directions. And we have considered all theories of what may or may not have happened to Trenton. We have interviewed Melinda and Joshua and family members several times. And we have gotten Joshua, the father`s, whereabouts for that weekend pretty firmed up. Melinda`s whereabouts were vague, and we were not able to firm any of that up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Florida, as we still continue our search for baby Trenton Duckett. To Marilyn Aciego, what`s open at 8:00 in the morning on a Sunday morning in Leesburg, Florida?

ACIEGO: Not much, Nancy. I mean, you`re almost narrowing it down to convenience stores, grocery stores, and restaurants. Even a lot of the places to shop around here aren`t open on Sundays until either 11:00 a.m. or noon.

GRACE: What about a self-service car wash?

ACIEGO: Self-service, yes, because they`re open pretty much 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but...

GRACE: Any idea where she was spotted 8:00 a.m. Sunday morning the day this baby`s reported missing?

ACIEGO: Police won`t tell us, and their reasoning behind not telling us is they don`t want the business to be bombarded with media requests on interviews. They`re trying to protect the business owner.

GRACE: Marilyn, what do we know about the video that she invited the guys over to watch? We know that she asked two people over the day before to come the next evening. One bailed, and she did a last-minute invite. When did she invite them over exactly? And where did the movie come from? I`m thinking about how the discovery of Trenton missing went down.

ACIEGO: Police haven`t told us when -- police still won`t reveal to us who exactly was with her that night. I have sources telling me that I may have a name, but I have not been able to confirm that yet. I have not been able to get a hold of the gentleman to see if he really truly was the one who was there. But other than that, police aren`t telling us much about that night.

GRACE: Well, what about the video? Was it a Blockbuster? Was it a Netflix? Was it on HBO? I mean, where did that come from? I`m trying to nail down her time line and when she decided she wanted people there at 9:00 p.m. Sunday night.

ACIEGO: Police haven`t told us if it was a rented video, if it was a borrowed video, if it was on television. We really don`t know, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. One last thing, Marilyn. Don`t go anywhere. What about landfills? Do we know where these dumpsters are emptied? Is there a nearby landfill? And is it true police also found crude directions to another apartment complex allegedly drawn by Melinda Duckett?

ACIEGO: We do have an incinerator that`s actually very near Leesburg in a small town called Okahumpka, which is basically right next door to Leesburg.

GRACE: An incinerator?

ACIEGO: And then you have -- yes, an incinerator. And then we do have also the Lake County landfill, which is approximately probably about seven to eight miles from Melinda and Trenton`s apartment.

GRACE: OK, Marilyn, with the incinerator, can individuals go drop off trash there? Or could someone have dropped off Trenton`s body at an incinerator?

ACIEGO: Not at the incinerator. At the landfill, individuals can drop off their own garbage at the landfill.

GRACE: OK.

Straight back out to the g-men joining us tonight. Straight to Jack Trimarco, Jack, also, the search in Lake Falls (ph) has now been called off. Nothing in Ocala National Forest. Does that suggest to you that police are now discounting the story she was ever there?

TRIMARCO: Well, Nancy, I`ve been on the show, as you know, several times, and I haven`t used this phrase, but I think we`re at that point now where we can say, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it`s probably a duck.

There`s no evidence -- there`s nothing that points me away from this troubled woman. She was probably depressed, certainly troubled, perhaps suicidal, before Trenton ever left his home.

The paint bothers me. I didn`t know about that until your show. I think we have to find out who painted that room, whether she did it herself and, if she did, when she purchased the paint. That may be covering up a crime scene.

And we have to keep in mind, there`s going to be multiple crime scenes here. We`re going to have the bedroom, if that bedroom was staged to make it look like the abduction came from that room. And, of course, we get that from her. And we, of course, have to find little Trenton. And that, sadly, will also be a crime scene.

If we do a good job in those crime scenes, then we`ll have a resolution, when we get lucky. And in these cases, we always get lucky.

GRACE: And to Mike Brooks, Mike, what can you tell us about -- we know about cell phone triangulation, that if a cell phone call is made you can generally tell almost down to the block where the person was making that call. What about the ping, p-i-n-g? If your cell phone is on and you can get a time on it, it is emitting transmissions. Is that a way to tell where she was that day, if her cell phone was on? And what if in Ocala National Forest, there was -- you couldn`t get cell service, does it still ping?

BROOKS: Well, absolutely, Nancy. As long as the cell phone is on, it is still going to be a record of where she was. As you go from pole to pole to pole, that`s where they actually goes on a computer and it goes right into your record. You don`t have to be talking on the phone. All it has to do is be on.

And even if she was up in Ocala National Forest, her cell phone was still on, so we would be able to have a time frame from the last pole she passed before she lost cell service to when she came back into cell service. That would give us a time line of how long she actually was in that forest. You know, was she actually there for that eight-hour odyssey that she says she was on? That would be able to shed a lot of light on that, Nancy.

GRACE: So even with no cell service, you still get a transmission, if the phone is on?

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: OK.

BROOKS: It won`t be recorded, but as soon as you get back into service area, into that first on the way back, it will be recorded, in the record, in the computer.

GRACE: OK. And also out to Don Clark, former head, FBI Houston bureau, if you paint over crime scene evidence, such as blood, if you paint over that, is the evidence lost forever?

CLARK: No, it`s not lost forever, Nancy. The forensic people, they can really scrape through and find out a lot of things about that. Keep in mind that we paint furniture all the time, especially down here in Texas and I`m sure a lot of other places. You paint it all the time. It comes up in layers.

Whatever is under there, you can get right to the basic core of the wood of the material that you`re painting over, so it`s going to be there. You`re not going to just paint over it and say it`s gone away. And then, when they test the paint, then they`re going to find out that there`s a foreign substance that`s mixed into the paint. And, of course, that could be the blood. So, no, it`s not lost.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, Jenny in Kansas. Hi, Jenny.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Well, it was the blogs that I was most interested in, in how her stomach was hurting and how she kept feeling sick week after week. And is it possible that she could have been pregnant, you know, by somebody else`s baby and that she wanted to do away with Trenton? And that sonogram, was it of Trenton or was it of a new baby?

GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez. We don`t know, Jean Casarez with Court TV News, Jean, we don`t know the date on the sonogram or, of course, there wouldn`t be a name on the sonogram, I`m sure.

CASAREZ: Right, no, we don`t. There could be a patient name, but there should be a date. And authorities just aren`t releasing that. But that`s what I was talking about when I was looking at this alleged blog of Melinda`s. And we`ve got to say alleged, because law enforcement hasn`t confirmed that it is hers. But you look at that, you put it together with a sonogram, and it makes you wonder, was it a recent sonogram and not one over two years ago of Trenton?

GRACE: I thought of that, too. On the other hand, everything in that bag was Trenton-related: his food, his crackers, his candy, photos of him, Jean.

And back to Michael Nuccitelli, Michael, I know you`re the shrink here. You`re the one that got the degree. But I just flat-out disagree with you. I mean, when was the last time you actually threw out photos? Think about it. What photo, what Polaroid, what photo did you throw out? Just tell me. Just answer.

NUCCITELLI: Well, OK, Nancy, let me answer. If we were to rewind, I wasn`t saying that that is the likelihood.

GRACE: You`re not answering. I asked you: What photo did you throw out?

NUCCITELLI: The only photos that I`ve thrown out recently are probably some photos of landscaping that I took when I redid my house about five years ago.

GRACE: Why did you throw them out?

NUCCITELLI: Because I didn`t need them.

GRACE: Good point. So what does this suggest to you, on the day, the day the baby goes missing, they`re going to the police station, and they pause to throw away photos of Trenton Duckett out of the house trash?

NUCCITELLI: What it suggests to me is that, when you look at all the inconsistencies, particularly with what you`re focusing on, Nancy, about the fact that these valuables were thrown away, to me, thinking about it, the fact that she took her life, it`s kind of like what the g-men were talking about as part of the possibility of an elaborate suicidal plan, either kind of like a Susan Smith to get back to somebody -- why throw these valuables out? It`s because she didn`t want somebody else to have those valuables.

If it was a suicide plan, in her borderline mind, it was to create a plan, premeditate it, take her child`s life, and then ultimately, in the big crescendo, is to take her own.

GRACE: But the reality is, to Jean Casarez, police have not named her a suspect, right?

CASAREZ: No, they have not. They have just said that specifically what they found in the Dumpster, all of those items, they made her higher on the list of suspicion, but not an actual suspect.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The purpose of the conference this morning, as we mentioned earlier, is to release the composite sketch. What we have is some photographs of a piece of evidence that`s been recovered at the scene. James Woods, the father of the child, has taken a polygraph, and he`s passed it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At approximately 5:00 this afternoon, Dorothy Torres, in the company of a friend, handed off the baby, Abigale Woods.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Franklin County prosecutor`s office has charged Shannon K. Torrez with one count of a class-A felony...

Class-A felonies are 10 to 30 years or life. The armed criminal actions are three years to infinity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. As we reported to you last night as it broke, Baby Abby has been found. Today is her 12-day-old birthday. And tonight, her alleged attacker and kidnapper, 36-year-old Shannon Torrez, behind bars.

To CNN correspondent Jonathan Freed, what`s the latest on Torrez?

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Nancy. I can tell you that she is behind bars, and the absolute latest on her is she`s still in Franklin County and she`s expected to be arraigned tomorrow.

GRACE: And to Aisha Sultan, reporter with the "St. Louis Post Dispatch" -- welcome back, Aisha -- what are the charges that will be leveled against Torrez?

AISHA SULTAN, REPORTER, "ST. LOUIS POST DISPATCH": She`s facing four felony charges, two of armed criminal action, one of first-degree assault, and one of child abduction, kidnapping.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE OCHSENBINE, MOTHER OF FOUND BABY: It`s worth every bit that we`ve been through this past five days, it`s worth it all, because now she`s here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Abby`s mom, Baby Abby. That`s Stephanie Ochsenbine talking about the joy of reuniting with her daughter on NBC`s "Today Show." You saw that big bandage on her neck. This mom slashed across the throat, other stab wounds when this baby taken from the home. She tried to fight back. Don`t worry about that.

Very quickly to Dr. Holly Phillips, internist, Dr. Phillips, reportedly the attacker is claiming that she had had a miscarriage and wanted a baby. How can you tell? Now, that claim is coming unraveled.

DR. HOLLY PHILLIPS, M.D., INTERNIST: Well, certainly. She`s claiming to have had a very late-term miscarriage, often also called a stillbirth delivery. When these things happen, they tend to be linked with some complications, some bleeding, and we don`t have information at this point that she actually went to a hospital or had any medical care.

That sort of gives us some suspicion as to whether or not it actually happened. How could she have sort of delivered the stillbirth at home, taken care of herself, disposed of this baby`s body, then had enough strength and energy to hatch a plan, accost another woman, and abduct a child all in one day? It certainly seems incredible, to say the least.

GRACE: Debra Phillips (ph), is there a way there`s been a recent miscarriage, that you can check hormones or blood tests to determine if a woman has recently been pregnant?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Certainly. They would be able to do a very simple blood test, in fact, to be able to confirm those facts.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers. Hillah Mendez out of the Miami jurisdiction, Asuncion Houston in the New York jurisdiction, OK, give me your best shots, starting with you, Asuncion, what`s the defense for Torrez?

SULTAN: The defense in this case is very, very simple. She was...

GRACE: And please don`t start with, "She didn`t do it." OK, go ahead.

SULTAN: I will start with postpartum depression. This is an insanity defense case if I`ve ever seen one. We`ve seen it with Andrea Yates. We know so much about postpartum, with the Brooke Shields and the Tom Cruise debacle. We know what it does to women. And I would say that, as a defense attorney, definitely, definitely, definitely.

GRACE: Postpartum depression?

ASUNCION SULTAN: Absolutely.

GRACE: Yes, it worked in a quadruple drowning out in Texas. OK, but Hillah Mendez, let me throw a little wrench in the works. Let`s say she wasn`t ever pregnant.

MENDEZ: Well, Nancy, I still think that the issue here is we definitely are dealing with somebody with a mental design or defect.

GRACE: You`re going to stick with postpartum depression?

MENDEZ: No, no, no, no, I`m going to stick with not guilty by reason of insanity, because I think that the welcome home sign that was on the lawn indicated that Ms. Torrez...

GRACE: Did you say not guilty by reason of insanity? I heard the control room laughing in my ear.

MENDEZ: She is. She`s going to put forward an insanity defense.

GRACE: OK. Let me throw another wrench in the works. It`s called the facts of the case as we know them now. The fact that apparently she stalked the home, watched the home, drove to the home, made up a lie about using the phone, attacked the mom, locked her in the bathroom, and made off with the baby, hid out in an abandoned farmhouse, staying alive until detected. OK, where does the insanity fit in there? That`s very well- executed, if it`s true.

MENDEZ: Oh, no. Well, I think that that`s not -- I don`t think that the facts are necessarily as precise or premeditated as you say. What this woman did after she took that baby is she presented that baby, little Baby Abby, as her own. She walked it around with friends and family as if it was her own child. So she actually literally believed that this baby belonged to her and that she had actually birthed it.

GRACE: OK.

MENDEZ: And if this was a woman who believed to have been pregnant beforehand, she was telling that to people, which shows that she definitely was very mentally disturbed.

GRACE: Back to Jonathan Freed, Jonathan, isn`t it true that reports are she actually put makeup on the baby`s forehead to cover up a distinctive birthmark, a birthmark that will probably go away shortly?

FREED: What we`re hearing from police, Nancy, from the sheriff`s department, is exactly that, that the way it has been told to us is the suspect put makeup on the forehead to cover that birthmark. And her sister-in-law had become suspicious and noticed what she thought was makeup on the forehead of the child.

Now, this was in the parking lot of a hospital where Torrez-Beck had gone inside for a doctor`s appointment and left the baby there. And she had actually rubbed the makeup off of the forehead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OCHSENBINE: I can`t stop looking at her, I`m sorry. She`s just so perfect, you know? I haven`t looked at her in a couple days. And worth every bit that we`ve been through this past five days. It`s worth it all, because now she`s here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Baby Abby`s mother, Stephanie Ochsenbine, talking about her joy reuniting with her little girl on NBC`s "Today Show." Straight back out to Aisha Sultan with the "St. Louis Post Dispatch," where is Torrez being held? Does she have any record? And does she have any history of mental illness?

SULTAN: Well, we do know that she had an unpaid traffic ticket from a nearby city.

GRACE: That`s usually not the kind of crime we`re talking about on this particular show.

SULTAN: Right, right, exactly, and that`s the only record that the police have found on her. So, no, she didn`t have any sort of criminal record in that sense. And she is being held at the Franklin County jail on a $1 million bond.

GRACE: Do we know anything about her prior mental history, Jonathan Freed? Is she under mental evaluation?

FREED: We don`t know that yet. And the sheriff`s department is really being very careful about what it says. They were a little bit more forthcoming in the last couple of days, but now that the prosecutor has stepped in -- even at the news conference this afternoon, Nancy, you could even read his body language. He would be leaning forward and trying to restrain things.

GRACE: Jonathan Freed, CNN correspondent joining us there in Missouri. And back to the lawyers, very quickly, Asuncion Houston, Hillah Mendez, Asuncion, all this business about not guilty by reason of insanity, what about putting makeup on the baby`s forehead so nobody could see the identifying birthmark?

SULTAN: Well, Nancy, certainly that`s troubling. It is troubling, but it doesn`t necessarily mean...

GRACE: Troubling?

SULTAN: ... that she wasn`t insane.

GRACE: OK, Hillah, hit me.

MENDEZ: No, I agree with the same thing. She`s definitely...

GRACE: It`s troubling. You`re darn right it`s troubling.

(CROSSTALK)

MENDEZ: Oh, no, she -- it clearly shows that she`s going out of her way to make sure that nobody thinks that this baby`s anything besides her own.

GRACE: Ladies...

MENDEZ: And that`s another step that she continued to take.

GRACE: ... thank you. I trust we will meet again to argue.

Tonight, let`s stop. Let`s stop to remember National Guard Staff Sergeant Joshua Hanson, just 27, Dent, Minnesota, first tour of duty, recent Minnesota State University grad. Degree: law enforcement. He wanted to join the local deputies. He leaves behind a loving family, a little brother. Joshua Hanson, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but especially to you. Nancy Grace signing off. See you tomorrow night. Good night, friend.

END