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President Bush Declares he Would Send Troops to Pakistan if he Had Evidence of Bin Laden; Pakistan's President Does Not Agree; Possible Deal Coming Together on Detainee Legislation in The Senate; Last Flight of the F-14
Aired September 21, 2006 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN:, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Carol Lin at the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta.
Hunting bin Laden -- President Bush said he would send U.S. troops into Pakistan to capture the terror leader. Well, Pakistan's president says, not so fast.
And al Qaeda in Iraq, deemed the darkest core of the insurgency -- why the U.S. military is far from crippling the deadly network.
And support for Chavez -- a celebrity introduction, a standing ovation -- the Venezuelan president still on U.S. soil, speaking out, this time with support -- details on all this and more straight ahead from THE NEWSROOM.
We are going to begin this hour with reports of a possible deal on war tribunals.
More from the White House now and Suzanne Malveaux.
Suzanne, what have you learned?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, so far, it's a little too soon to say whether or not there is a deal.
Deputy White House spokeswoman Dana Perino, who is traveling with the president in Florida, sent me an e-mail message, essentially saying there are all still in a room. There's a good trajectory, but she cannot confirm.
And what she is talking about? She's talking about high-level meetings that are taking place, have been taking place, throughout the day, and really throughout the week, to try to come up with a compromise, some sort of language that the White House, and, of course, top Senate Republicans can agree on, on what is the best way to interrogate and treat detainees, but, at the same time, protect those agents in the CIA who are involved in harsh interrogations.
They want to make sure that they are legally protected. Now, when she says they are all still in a room, who is she possibly talking about? Well, of course, Senators Warner, Graham, as well as McCain, all of them have been in discussions with the White House about how to craft that language. We know that the national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, has been on the Hill all day. We know that chief of staff Josh Bolten has been very intimately involved in those discussions. And there are really two things that are happening here since the revolt from the top Senate Republicans.
The White House has been quite surprised with all of this. They did not expect that, so, they are trying to craft that language to move forward. They do not want this split with top Republicans just before the midterm elections.
So, there's something, politically -- there is a political track that is happening. But according to one GOP strategist, he said, look -- weeks ago -- this may not be a legislative victory, but it will be a political victory. And that is all a part of the public-relations campaign from this White House to really put forward the toughest measures possible in dealing with terrorists and interrogating terrorists, that to send a message to American people: Look, the White House and Republicans are the ones that will do the best job in protecting the nation's security.
And, ultimately, that is the message they want American voters to take -- the midterm elections just some six weeks away -- Carol.
LIN: You got it.
All right. Thanks very much, Suzanne Malveaux, live from the White House
Now, straight to THE NEWSROOM, Fredricka Whitfield working details on a developing story, Fred.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This in Philadelphia, in Center City, still, a 25-block area blocked off to traffic because of -- see this smoke right here? That is all due to an underground electrical cable problem that somehow became overloaded, and then started smoking.
It led to the evacuation of many of the high-rise buildings there in that aerial view you're seeing.
On the line with us, however, is Michael Wood, the PECO spokesperson. That's the utility company there that services much of Philadelphia.
And, Michael, you can give us a better idea. So, it is the case it's an underground electrical cable that sparked this problem?
MICHAEL WOOD, SPOKESPERSON, PECO ENERGY COMPANY: We believe so.
We're not sure the origin of the cable failure, but there was an underground cable fault. And, as a result of that, gas has built up underground in the manhole area, and then resulted in the bursting of the manhole, the cover.
The underground vault is still billowing heavy smoke. And that's what we're trying to deal with first, is protect the safety of the immediate area. The outage is confined to a very local area, one square block in Center City.
WHITFIELD: And I understand that, along with that smoke, has also meant that there have been a lot of gases, a lot of smells, people have reported, of natural gases in the area. Has that been contained, or is that causing a problem in any way?
WOOD: Right now, the PECO utility personnel on the scene are trying to work with the Philadelphia Fire Department and the Philadelphia Gas Works to try to contain the area.
And that is why you have a larger area that has been cordoned off. We are not yet aware of the extent of damage in the underground area. So, what damage that may have occurred to a gas facility is not yet known.
WHITFIELD: Well, let me ask you about that underground area, because I understand the explosion took place near the commuter rail station stop underground. Any truth to that, A? And, B, if so, what about the commuters?
WOOD: Suburban Station, which is one of the main areas for trains and subways, is about two blocks away. So, it is not far from the area where the underground manhole fire is still active at 15th and Ranstead Street.
WHITFIELD: So, now, what about the people, though, that may be underground in any one of those trains just a few blocks away? I mean, surely, they would smell those fumes, just like anyone above ground. So, how do you get to them? Or how do you get a clear report as to whether anybody is in danger?
WOOD: I can't yet comment on that.
I can tell you what PECO is doing, as the electric utility, and trying to assess the damage to our facilities, and -- and try to restore electric service to affected customers. We're working with the local authorities, local police and fire. And they will focus on the concourses around the -- at the train stations.
WHITFIELD: OK. Michael Wood, a PECO spokesperson, thanks so much for your time. And best of luck on containing this situation.
WOOD: Thank you very much.
WHITFIELD: All right, Carol...
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: ... let's send it back to you.
LIN: Thanks very much, Fred.
Six premature babies, already facing uphill struggles, become victims of a tragic mistake. Three of those preemies died after drug overdoses overwhelmed their tiny bodies.
Roger Harvey has the story from Indianapolis and our affiliate WTHR.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROGER HARVEY, WTHR REPORTER (voice-over): There are new procedures in place inside the neonatal intensive care unit at Methodist Hospital, including the removal of high doses of the drug Heparin.
Since the discovery of six overdoes last Saturday, nurses in this unit who were not involved in the incidents have been overcome with grief.
DEB HUTCHENS, NEONATAL NURSE PRACTITIONER: It's just very sad that this can happen to my hospital. I have been here since 1973. And it's my family that this happened to.
HARVEY: The highly trained staff here works to save lives. And they deal with life and death in the tiniest forms of human life. But these deaths, because they were due to accidental overdoses, hit the staff especially hard.
HUTCHENS: This is why we have chosen this profession, is to -- to take care of people, and to do no harm. And -- and -- and, so, when something like this happens, you're just totally devastated. That's not what you take your little nursing pledge for.
HARVEY: Methodist Hospital is working with all six families whose infants received overdoses, including providing counseling, paying for the funerals of the babies who died, and also paying restitution.
The family of 2-day-old Emmery Miller, who died, hired an attorney that released this statement: "The hospital staff attempted to save our baby after the mistake was discovered. Unfortunately, the dosage administered was too great for our young daughter to survive. We are deeply saddened by our loss."
The president and CEO of Methodist Hospital is Sam Odle.
SAM ODLE, PRESIDENT AND CEO, METHODIST HOSPITAL: We would handle each family on an individual basis, but, clearly, you know, we will make sure that the families are as satisfied with the outcome, as we possibly can.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: That story from WTHR in Indianapolis. The station also reports that the three other infants who got too much Heparin are no longer showing the effects of their overdoses, but they do remain hospitalized because of their premature status.
Well, a court appearance today for Shannon Torrez, also known as Shannon Beck. She is the Missouri woman accused of attacking a new mother, and stealing her baby, and trying to pass the child off as her own.
Well, Torrez-Beck was arraigned on four felony counts, two of which carry the possibility of life in prison. Her lawyer entered pleas of not guilty. Newborn Abigail Woods was returned safe and sound to her family, after Torrez-Beck's sister-in-law noticed makeup covering the baby's distinctive birthmark.
A suspect is named, jailed, and held without bail. But the victim's identity and a possible motive are still unclear in a gruesome Colorado killing. Thirty-six-year-old Jose Luis Rubi-Nava is being held on suspicion of first-degree murder. Authorities believe he is an illegal immigrant from Mexico. Police say tips came from the public after they released copies of a photo found next to the victim's battered body.
An autopsy showed she died of asphyxiation and head injuries after being dragged behind a vehicle for more than a mile.
Well, evidence linking John Mark Karr to the murder of JonBenet Ramsey simply didn't exist. But now evidence that led to the filing of child porn charges in California is missing.
CNN's Dan Simon reports that the case isn't over, but there may not be a trial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Karr had to feel much better about his future when he appeared in a California courtroom Tuesday. The one-time JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect might have the cops to thank for a deal that would include no prison time for allegedly possessing child pornography. Karr has pleaded not guilty.
California authorities got involved when the Colorado case collapsed. That's because Karr was accused of five misdemeanors in 2001, charged with storing pornographic images on his computer.
(On camera): But the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department lost Karr's computer that contained the images. The smoking gun, as it were, is missing. The sheriff's department says, it doesn't believe the case is compromised, because it made printed copies of the photos, which allegedly show children in sexual positions.
(Voice-over): The district attorney's office didn't return our calls, but a spokesman told a local newspaper they have sufficient evidence to still link the images to Mr. Karr.
Still, legal experts say it represents a tremendous blow to the prosecution.
ROY MILLER, ATTORNEY: It's very embarrassing. And while not -- it's not necessarily fatal to a case here in California, it's -- it's a significant problem.
SIMON: Attorney Roy Miller used to work in the Sonoma DA's office, and believes his former colleagues had little choice but to make a deal.
MILLER: When you have a -- a main piece of evidence go missing, it damages the case, and it probably had a role in their deciding to offer him credit for time served, after screaming last week that he was a -- he was a flight risk, and wanting him basically held without bail.
SIMON: The specific deal extended to Karr would have him plead guilty to two of the five charges. Karr would get credit for time served, and would get three years' probation. He would also be required to register as a sex offender.
ROBERT AMPARAN, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN MARK KARR: We may be going back to the DA with a counteroffer.
SIMON: Karr's newest attorney -- he's had several since the start of his legal woes -- says they haven't decided their next move, but, like previous lawyers, says Karr is a misunderstood man, even calling him a Southern gentleman.
AMPARAN: There's a whole different John Mark Karr that will eventually be portrayed both to the media and the -- a waiting public. It -- it's a false picture.
JOHN MARK KARR, DEFENDANT: I love JonBenet, and she died accidentally.
SIMON: A picture that began in Thailand with these bizarre and what we know now are false statements -- when Karr was first arrested, the question was whether he would be eligible for the death penalty. Now the question is whether he will serve time in prison at all.
Dan Simon, CNN, San Francisco.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: The growing influence of al Qaeda in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Insurgent groups and the U.S. military now say al Qaeda has become the darkest core of Iraq's insurgency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: CNN's Michael Ware reports from Baghdad.
And we're also waiting for our top gun, Kyra Phillips, to return from her flight in the F-14, making history in the Tomcat. We are going to talk to her when she lands.
You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LIN: One day after dressing down the United Nations and taking shots at President Bush, the president of Venezuela has a different face on today, perhaps a more generous run -- Hugo Chavez here visiting a low-income Harlem neighborhood, following up on last year's promise to provide poor New Yorkers heating oil at a discount.
Well, the United States and President Bush still drawing flak at the United Nations: name-calling from the Venezuelan president yesterday; and, today, defiance and a challenge from the president of Iran.
So, let's get the latest from CNN senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Carol, the Iranian president was peppered again with questions about his statement last year regarding his desire for the destruction of Israel, wiping that U.N. member country off the face of the -- the Earth.
One of the questions came from a journalist who identified himself as a Palestinian Jewish journalist who once was rebuffed by the Iranian president when he tried to talk to him before, but he again asked a question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, IRANIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): These Zionists, I want to tell you, are not Jews. That's the biggest deception we have ever faced.
Zionists are Zionists, period. They are not Jews. They are not Christians, and they are not Muslims. They are a power group, a power party. And we oppose oppression and the aggression that any party that seeks pure power, raw power...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: All right, well, that was a different answer to a different question.
The answer to the question from the -- the Palestinian Jewish reporter was that Iran does not want to have anyone harmed; there should be no violence, no murder in the world. But he did not directly answer that question.
That answer there, that was a question which the Iranian president turned into that Zionists are not Jews; they are a power trying to take over the world, that Zionists are not Christians or Muslims.
The Iranian president also seemed a little bit more encouraged about negotiating on the nuclear issue that Iran is locked into, but did not explicitly say that his country would freeze its uranium- enrichment program, as has been demanded for months, as the Security Council remains divided on how to tough to get on, regarding that issue, to garner compliance -- Carol. LIN: All right, Richard Roth, thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BELL RINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: That's U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan sounding the peace bell in the shadow of the United Nations. Today is International Peace Day, established 25 years ago, 24 hours dedicated to the victims of warfare around the globe and efforts to rid the world of insecurity and fear.
Well, straight ahead: entertainment news with Brooke Anderson of "Showbiz Tonight."
Brooke, what is on tap?
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN CULTURE AND ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Carol.
Well, a Hollywood power couple is starting a new charity foundation, while another A-list pair has an ugly confrontation with the paparazzi. And one of the "Friends" stars settles his divorce. That's all ahead on CNN NEWSROOM.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: All right. There, you're watching an F-14 coming in for landing, and our very own Kyra Phillips is on board.
Kyra is going to be able to hear us shortly. And we will be able to talk to her. And, certainly, she is going to tell us about the last 40 minutes of that flight there. She is the last journalist to fly on an F-14. They're retiring the F-14, to be replaced by the F- 18.
And she is flying into the Oceana Naval Air Station near Norfolk, Virginia.
And Kyra can hear me right now.
Kyra, how was it?
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Carol, if you can hear me, we're coming in for a touch-and-go. So, hopefully, you're going to be able -- can you see our live picture? Can you see us coming in?
LIN: Yes.
PHILLIPS: All right.
I'm going to let my pilot, Supa, kind of take us in here for a touch-and-go. We did all kinds of maneuvers out there. And he demonstrated just practical ability of this aircraft.
Supa, can you give them a little rundown of what we did as we come in for a touch-and-go?
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER DAVID "SUPAFLY" FAEHNLE, F-14 PILOT: You bet.
We just came in for the overhead approach, put the leg out, put the gear down, put the flaps down. Speed brakes are out. Clear to land on five right. We're going to do a touch-and-go and climb back away.
It's the kind simulation maneuver we do on an aircraft carrier. When we hit the deck, we go to full power, make we -- if we miss the aircraft, the arresting wire, we can get airborne again.
So, gear down, flaps down for a touch-and-go on the right. Now, flying the lens, the ball on the left side of the runway. Make sure I put the aircraft down on the right spot.
And here we are touching down, going to full power, and we're climbing back away.
PHILLIPS: I think, Carol, for me, probably one of the most impressive moves was how Supa showed me -- in a dogfight, how they can maneuver quickly and come around an aircraft.
Supa, what do you think probably was your best maneuver that you showed me out there today?
Carol, he's talking on the radio right now. Obviously, a lot of things going on when we're coming in. Pretty amazing, just to think that this aircraft is being retired, when you just see how it maneuvers in the air, and really you know firsthand how it operates in a real-time scenario.
You know, a lot of people wonder why you would have to have these type of aircraft, why naval aviation is so important. But when you see the capabilities, then you understand this is the type of capabilities that the U.S. has that have helped prevent another 9/11.
LIN: Kyra, can you tell us more about what you were doing up in the air, when we couldn't see you?
PHILLIPS: Absolutely.
And I don't know if you have got that videotape in yet from the stuff airborne.
Supa, are you still on the radio, or you want to talk?
FAEHNLE: I am. Give me just a minute. I will be able to talk.
PHILLIPS: You got it. Give me the heads-up when you can talk.
Carol, basically, he demonstrated to me all the different maneuvers that this F-14 can do.
Just to take you through a couple of them -- and, of course, it's hard to explain, but he -- he showed me the pitch (INAUDIBLE) over the top (INAUDIBLE) It shows how fast the aircraft can move over the top, say, of another aircraft in a dogfight.
I was able to experience also a couple of hard turns, as you do within a circle fight, how you can move around other aircraft quickly.
How I'm doing, Supa? Am I explaining it pretty well?
FAEHNLE: Pretty close.
I am going to go ahead and go through a landing checklist here as we get ready to land. (INAUDIBLE) The flaps are full. (INAUDIBLE) is engaged. (INAUDIBLE) the harness is unlocked. Speed brakes are out. Brakes check in. We got about 3,800 pounds of gas, so, we're looking good for your last landing, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: And your second to last. It's been an honor flying with you, Supa. Appreciate it.
FAEHNLE: My pleasure. We're on (INAUDIBLE) The gears are down. The flaps are down. We're cleared for landing. And I'm getting a ball to fly it all the way down to touchdown.
PHILLIPS: Once again, Carol, the advantage of CNN and 24-hour coverage. We get to document historical moments like this. And we're down.
LIN: And you're on the ground.
(CROSSTALK)
FAEHNLE: ... (INAUDIBLE) slowing down. There's 100 knots.
PHILLIPS: Carol, as we pull up, and I get out, I will try and get some videotape to you from when we were airborne. We will give you a little debrief on how it went.
But it's -- it's interesting, just, once again, being able to fly in this aircraft, and see all the men and women, you know, from the past two wars, Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom.
I mean, September 11 really changed our lives. And the 50th anniversary of the Tailhook Association, and it's the retirement of the F-14 -- it's a pretty crucial year for naval aviation, but also, looking forward, at the F-18 Super Hornet and the other aircraft that is being built. It will be pretty amazing to see the kind of capabilities that we have in the next five to 10 years.
LIN: Kyra, tell us about where your pilot has been.
PHILLIPS: Oh, man.
Supa, I'm going to let you tell Carol about this. You have flown in a number of wars, a number of combat missions, and lived to tell about it.
Supa, do you think there's a defining moment for you? Do you think it was Operation Enduring Freedom? Do you think it was Operation Iraqi Freedom? What do you think?
FAEHNLE: I would have to say Operation Iraqi Freedom, and just supporting the guys on the ground, the Marines and the soldiers. You can hear it in their voice. They're happy to see you when you check in overhead, give them some coverage for a couple hours with our bombs on board, in case they needed it.
That's what really made it for me, is supporting those guys on the ground in harm's way.
PHILLIPS: Supa is talking about the close air airport missions, just one example of what he did.
Let's say that Marines needed help trying to find out where the enemy was, Carol. If they were in danger, if there was some type of threat by insurgents, these -- these F-14s could fly overhead, locate where the threat was, tell the Marines, and save their lives, basically. And, if they needed to drop a bomb, then, they were able to do that, if, indeed, U.S. forces were in trouble.
LIN: Kyra, how hard is it to become an F-14, or now an F-18, pilot?
PHILLIPS: Wow. It's amazing.
Supa is probably one of the best examples to explain, because of his roots and where he went to school.
Supa, why don't you just tell our viewers where it started and the training involved, and how many years it took you to get to where you are.
FAEHNLE: I joined from the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, in 1995, and then went to flight school for about two years. So, I spent a lot time in Pensacola, Florida, Corpus Christi, Texas, and Kingsville, Texas, flying, training jets, and training aircraft.
It took about two years for me to get my wings. And I was just lucky enough to be assigned the Tomcat from there. After that, I spent about a year in VF-101 at the fleet replacement squadron, learning to fly the F-14.
That involved several hours in the classroom, lots of time in the simulator, and, then, lots of flight time and getting carrier qualified in the F-14.
So, it's been a long road, but it's been a great experience. And I really enjoyed it.
PHILLIPS: Did you ever think, Supa, that, when you were going through flight school, that you would actually fly this aircraft and drop bombs in a wartime scenario? FAEHNLE: That was my goal, going through flight school.
I wanted to pick up the Tomcat, fly it. I knew it was a great airplane. I knew it was the multi-crew concept, that it was good having two sets of eyeballs, instead of one. And we trained day in and day out to do what -- what the country asks us to do.
And when you finally get a chance to help out and support the -- the guys on the ground, it's -- it's a great deal of satisfaction for that.
PHILLIPS: And the part -- the flying that you went through, I remember the sandstorms in Iraq. I remember the just brutal conditions , where you couldn't even see, going 500 miles an hour, anything in front of you. It's just amazing, the conditions that you dealt with.
Do you remember those moments and how, at times, you thought you might not even be coming home?
FAEHNLE: Oh, vividly. There were lots of dark, dark nights out there, trying to get through thunderstorms, try to get to the ground to see -- you see the guys on the ground, so we could support them. They're asking for help.
They need some air support, and we're trying to pick our way through the clouds and watching the lightning go by, working down low in a high-threat environment. And you're always wondering if the tanker will be there to give you extra gas, in case you need it.
There was a lot of stress involved with some of that stuff, and especially the long transit from the aircraft carrier into the area. But when you got out there, it was a good three or four hours of (INAUDIBLE) tightening. And it was a lot of fun.
PHILLIPS: It's interesting, Carol, you know, how a lot people come through the CNN NEWSROOM, and they're so fascinated how it works, and sitting up on the set, and seeing how we do breaking news and how we cover stories.
And we always think, oh, it's our job, you know?
LIN: Right.
PHILLIPS: We're really happy to have it, but, you know, it's just -- it's a part of our lives.
You come into this environment, and you talk to so many young men and women, and this is what they dream. This is like their dream, to fly in a strike fighter. But these guys, to them, it's -- it's their job. And it's interesting. When I talk to them about it, they don't always realize how we view it and how amazing we think it is.
So, I guess that's why I feel really lucky to be in this business, so I can experience firsthand, and really try to give viewers an understanding of what makes it so intense and so unique. And it takes a certain kind of person to do this.
LIN: Right.
And they are absolutely trained to perfection.
Kyra, as you're taxiing in, and you're getting ready to get off board, we're going to take a quick break.
But Kyra Phillips, who just landed at the Oceana Naval Air Station, up there in Virginia, is going to be sharing some of her amazing videotape. She just got back in. She's the last journalist to fly in an F-14. She has got an amazing story of the last hour that she has spent up in the air.
Kyra Phillips will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Al Qaeda in Iraq, but Kyra Phillips in an F-14 right now. We're going to have both stories coming up just shortly. We're in THE NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Welcome back to THE NEWSROOM. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld talking with Democrats and House Reps about the war in Iraq, but also some other subjects as well. Let's listen in.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: ... requires political progress, a reconciliation process, and here comes the chairman.
GEN. PETER PACE, CHMN., JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Hey, hello, Mr. Secretary. A little arm twisting lately?
RUMSFELD: The winner of the keeper of the flame award last evening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on over. Come on over.
RUMSFELD: They're asking about the combatant commander's comments on the way forward in Iraq.
PACE: We had two really good days of conversations between the combatant commanders, the joint chiefs and the secretary, his leadership team. We looked at the fact that we do not, right now, we're not comfortable right now with a reduction in the size of our force. So the question is, OK, why not? What is it about what's happening in Iraq that are impediments to the Iraqi government being able to take advantage of security environment? Fourteen out of 18 provinces are secure.
So with about 300,000 Iraqis troops and about 140,000 U.S. troops, what are the things that are preventing the things beyond security, the governance things, the things that a government brings to their people that allows them to provide a better life? And so we had a long discussion about that and we've all taken away our homework assignments to do a lot of analysis and thinking about that and, again, get back together again and discuss this.
QUESTION: I understand there is an agreement between the White House and Pentagon (INAUDIBLE) ...
RUMSFELD: I don't know that. The White House has got the baton on that.
PACE: They're close. There's no agreement yet.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: I can tell you our position on this, is that they're working, I know Senator McCain and Senator Warner and Senator Graham are working at the White House right now and the word that I got is that they have a conceptional agreement on what they think would work well, particularly with respect to Geneva Convention, Article III. Let me give you our position that differs with the Senate and one in which we're fairly strong on.
Our bill, which is very similar to the administration's proposal, provides for the use of classified evidence to bring about a conviction, even though that classified evidence is not disclosed to the alleged terrorists. Now we provide a number of safeguards for an American JAG officer that can be appointed by the court to go in, look at the evidence, cross-examine with respect to the evidence.
If it's an American agent and you don't want to reveal its identity, the JAG officer could go in a closed room with the judge present and he could interrogate or cross-examine the American agent, without disclosing his identity, but you would not give that identity or would not disclose that agent's identity to the alleged terrorists.
The Senate bill says that classified information shall not be disclosed, but then it doesn't provide for the classified evidence to be used if it's not disclosed. So what that leaves you with is two bad choices. One is to say, OK, we're going to have to declassify this evidence so we can use it in trial, that may be bad for national security. The other is to say, OK, do we have any other evidence and if you don't, you have to dismiss the charges.
We think, on the House side, that we should be able to bring about convictions with classified evidence, which is not disclosed to the terrorists. The reason we want to have that position is because on two occasions Osama bin Laden has ended up with classified evidence from American court proceedings in his possession that presumably got to him through lawyers in the case.
So we are very concerned on the House side about protecting classified evidence, not revealing it to the alleged terrorists, not revealing the names or the identity of agents to the terrorists or allowing the terrorists to see those agents, but allowing their lawyers, if they have the appropriate security clearances, and we would provide lawyers with those security clearances from the JAG Corps, to be able to cross-examine American agents or to review classified evidence. So we have a very strong state in the classified evidence portion of this tribunal bill.
RUMSFELD: Good to see you all. We're due over there.
LIN: You're just hearing from Representative Duncan Hunter, who is the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. Also Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Peter Pace, giving a status report on Iraq and the plan not to draw down U.S. troops as quickly as was once announced and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld also meeting with members of the House and Senate on various bills. Primarily, they were talking about how trials should be conducted of terror suspects.
In the meantime, we've also been talking about al Qaeda in Iraq. A U.S. bomb took out its leader, but he was quickly replaced and the movement quickly recovered and then some.
CNN's Michael Ware reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WARE (voice-over): Until now, most communications from al Qaeda in Iraq have been carefully crafted videos like this one, showing the shooting down of a U.S. Apache helicopter. What's unprecedented about this video is we hear about from al Qaeda in English.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to let you know that our lives are nothing beside our religion. We will bomb everything.
WARE: Insurgent groups in the U.S. military now say al Qaeda has become the darkest core of Iraq's insurgency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to let you know that we have to die as you have to live.
WARE: An organization so secretive that despite seized documents, intelligence, and interrogations, the U.S. military still struggles to know how it works.
COL. SEAN MACFARLAND, U.S. ARMY: We don't have a 100 percent understanding of that. And the enemy tries very hard to keep us from understanding.
WARE: There have been successes, cells disrupted, leaders captured, and most stunning of all, the founder of al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, executed in a U.S. airstrike. But reality on the ground suggests the U.S. military is far from crippling the deadly network.
Abu Khaled al-Iraqi is a top commander from a powerful alliance of local Islamic insurgent groups. In his first television interview, he tells CNN Zarqawi's death brought change, but not what the U.S. had in mind. Instead, younger even more radical al Qaeda leaders.
ABU KHALED AL-IRAQI, SR. IRAQI ISLAMIST COMMANDER (through translator): Al-Zarqawi is one person, and al Qaeda is thousands of people.
WARE: Local Sunni insurgent groups more moderate than al Qaeda, and Iraqi nationalists, mostly from Saddam's former military, agree. Al Qaeda is becoming stronger.
Listen to this nationalist insurgent commander. He says al Qaeda's decentralized structure, seemingly endless money, and growing support in and out of Iraq is overpowering local guerrilla groups.
ABU MOHAMMED, INSURGENT COMMANDER (through translator): Al Qaeda's leadership is different, but as an idea it has expanded, because most other groups' pressure between U.S. forces and al Qaeda and have had leaders killed or captured and al Qaeda took over their fighters.
WARE: That's an assessment shared by many in the U.S. military. American commanders like Sean MacFarland confront the al Qaeda-led insurgency every day.
MACFARLAND: What we're trying to do here is counteract a strong presence of al Qaeda that's intermixed with some lingering Ba'athist influence.
WARE: Four months ago, Abu Khaled's insurgent group was distancing itself from al Qaeda. Now he says there's no difference at all.
KHALED (through translator): Al Qaeda works within the resistance and is part of the resistance.
WARE: The Sunni groups say fear of civil war with Shiites in control of the Iraqi government and unchecked Iranian interference is driving them to al Qaeda.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): America came to Iraq saying it would free us of from tyranny and dictatorship. But that hasn't happened. Because the U.S. increased the power of Shia religious organizations, gave them the government, and we regard this as giving power to Iran.
WARE: If so, it is Zarqawi's most enduring legacy, his plan all along to spark sectarian conflict and draw Sunni insurgents to al Qaeda's cause. The insurgents say al Qaeda's hard line is gaining traction where there was little before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator): When the nationalist forces become weak, that leaves al Qaeda as a strong force in the area.
WARE: Yet, the U.S. military is still hoping disillusioned moderate Sunnis reject al Qaeda.
MACFARLAND: Al Qaeda is herding them back toward us. So, to an extent, the Sunnis may be trapped between the devil and deep blue sea.
WARE: But Sunni insurgents know one day the United States will leave Iraq. And they believe al Qaeda will not.
Michael Ware, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: You can see more of Michael Ware's reports on "ANDERSON COOPER 360" weeknights at 10:00 Eastern.
All right, Kyra Phillips on that historical F-14 flight. She has just landed. We're going to hear from her, coming up in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: From the skies over Vietnam to the caves of Tora Bora to shock and awe in Baghdad, the F-14 has served the United States on for more than 30 years. And now the supersonic war bird is ready to retire.
The Navy picked CNN's Kyra Phillips as the last journalist to fly the Tomcat before it's grounded for good. And she just returned from flight. She's at Oceania Naval Air Station in Virginia Beach, Virginia, all in one piece after her hour-long flight.
Kyra, how was it?
PHILLIPS: It was great, Carol. It's nice to be back down and to have been able to experience that, no doubt. It was definitely a piece of history as the Tomcat is retired.
But I want to tell you there's a lot more to this -- to what's happening this week. In about 15 minutes, the dedication -- a special memorial is being set up here, a dedication to the Tomcat pilots that lost their lives over that period of time that you just mentioned. That's going to happen soon, and tomorrow is the final flight ceremony, where all the former F-14 pilots will be here (INAUDIBLE) all the ones for the 30 years, celebrating that final flight.
And with me right now, Commander Tim Gamache, Kooch (ph), as we well know him. Tell us, first, about the memorial. How many F-14 pilots lost their lives? Tell us about this dedication.
CMDR. TIM GAMACHE, STRIKE FIGHTER WING ATLANTIC: Well, the memorial itself is set up for the 36 years that the Tomcat served in the United States Navy. But more importantly, during those 36 years, we lost 64 aviators to accidents and mishaps and combat.
This dedication tonight is going to be in honor of those 64 people who lost their lives. And there will be a brick walkway that is set up with the names of everyone of those aviators. So it's a moving ceremony for those of us who flew the Tomcat.
PHILLIPS: And I asked you this yesterday. Sixty-four lives, obviously, we don't ever want to lose any lives, but when you consider how many missions were flown, that's a pretty remarkable success rate, right? GAMANCHE: It is. It is. As you said, we don't want to lose a single aviator, but in 36 years, 64, it was a very safe airplane, multi-engine, two people in the airplane to back each other up. So it did have a very successful career. It is a low number, as you said, it's every one we lose is a tragic loss to the community.
PHILLIPS: Well let's talk about the ceremony tomorrow. This is your baby, if you will. Tell us what is going to happen tomorrow. So many people are going to be gathered here. The meaning behind it, what is going to be unique about it?
GAMANCHE: Well, tomorrow morning at 10:00, this will be the actual U.S. Navy official retirement of the Tomcat. As we said, 36 years of service. This is going to be the way that the Navy says farewell to a very good friend that we've all loved for many years. And it is our way of saying thanks for your service, we're moving on now, the Navy, technology moves on. We're going to the F-18F Super Hornet, but we want to have one last ceremony to thank the Tomcat for 36 years of service.
PHILLIPS: I'm going to ask Mad Dog (ph) just behind you just to show the setup that's going on over here, and all the various missiles, and kind of talk about this display over here that is showing us, the Tomcat and all the weaponry.
GAMANCHE: Well, we have the Tomcat, and it's an air-to-air and air-to-ground platform, so we have all the air-to-air and air-to- ground weapons lined up. That is the Tomcat we repainted in memory of 36 years of service. Behind that, every one of these F-18 E and F Super Hornets are the actual former Tomcat squadrons that are now flying Super Hornets.
PHILLIPS: We're seeing two eras here. On the right, we're seeing the F-14 and as it retires, we're seeing the Super Hornet. A lot of guys are moving over to fly the newer aircraft?
GAMANCHE: Exactly. This is kind of our bridge -- for our ceremony's purposes, this is our bridge to the future. The Super Hornet is going to be around hopefully for 36 years just like the Tomcat, so this is our future in strike fighter aviation, and we're looking forward to it. We had a great time in the Tomcat and we're looking forward to moving on and still do the mission as professionally as ever.
PHILLIPS. Tim Gamanche, thank you so much, Commander, appreciate it.
That will be actually where everything is buttoned up, Carol, is tomorrow. And just as the Commander was pointing out, the two eras here, the past and the present, and it will be interesting later on throughout our next three, four hours, I will be bringing back some of those original F-14 pilots. They're quite characters and they've got stories all the way back to Vietnam. So we will be interviewing them, showing more of the flight from inside the cockpit and just talking about this time in history throughout the rest of the day here on CNN. LIN: Well, Kyra, we won't be able to fly in one like you did today, but will the public ever get a chance to see one up close and personal? What's going to happen to these F-14s?
PHILLIPS: That's actually a great question. They're going to museums all over the country. And I encourage folks, wherever they live, whether in McMinnville, Oregon, where you can go see the Spruce Goose and a number of other incredible pieces of aircraft history, to Pensacola, the Navy base there, an unbelievable museum. You can go online, you can look up where the various aviation museums are. Practically every single one of them in the country is going to get one of these F-14s, you can see it up close and personal, and hopefully get to sit in the cockpit.
LIN: So, what is the best moment of the flight, Kyra? We only have a few seconds left, but what was the absolute best moment?
PHILLIPS: Wow. Flashing back to four years ago and remembering what this F-14 did in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and just being able to fly it for the last time and talk about that and see it maneuver for the last time, it's a bittersweet moment. I know as a journalist, but even more so, as you can imagine, for everybody here.
LIN: yes, I know. It's a personal story, too. Kyra, we had so much fun, kind of flying along with you. Thank you so much for sharing that experience. In fact, we are going to go to CNN's Wolf Blitzer right now. He's standing by in the Situation Room to tell us what's coming up at the top of the hour.
Wolf, ever been in an F-14?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: No, and I don't plan on doing it any time soon, but Kyra is my hero today. Thanks, Carol, very much.
President Bush, he's being blasted once again. The Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez again calling him a devil, this time in a crowd of cheering supporters in Harlem. But he gets blasted, Chavez that is, by several key Democrats.
Plus, Senator George Allen breaking his silence for the first time about a decades old family secret. His emotional interview with me, that's coming up right here in the "SITUATION ROOM". You're going to want to see what Senator Allen has to say.
Also, Bill Clinton, taking the White House to task on Iraq. Find out why he says the president made up his mind to go to war before 9/11. This is another CNN exclusive.
And Sir Richard Branson's $3 billion give-away. He is joining me in the "SITUATION ROOM" as well. All that coming up, right at the top of the hour -- Carol.
LIN: Thanks, Wolf.
Also, "The Closing Bell" and a wrap of the action on Wall Street straight ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Welcome back to the NEWSROOM. We're barreling towards the closing bell on Wall Street. Ali Velshi is there to bring us all those numbers. How did it go today?
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: I've been watching Kyra. It's way more fun than watching the markets.
LINE: Especially on a down day.
VELSHI: Markets are not having a fantastic day today, actually. There's a lot of warnings about the economy slowing down, which we discussed yesterday, because the Fed realized that and didn't raise interest rates. But we seem to be still seem to be seeing that and that's why you're seeing a rough day across the board on the markets.
But how about that McDonald's thing? Were you talking to Cheryl Casone earlier? McDonald's talking about serving breakfast all day.
LIN: Yes, for people like us who work around the clock.
VELSHI: Totally. I'm a complete meal mixer, like, I'm all about getting meals at the wring time. But look the menu board up there. That's part of the problem, you know. You go to McDonald's, you actually have to kind of know what they have because they switch out the board. And, you know, it's about switching out the grills and things like that. But they figured they can do that and...
LIN: Pancakes at 2:00 in the afternoon!
VELSHI: There's just no downside to this. I should be critical as a business journalist and say, well, here's why it could be bad thing, you know, it could increase costs. I think it's a fantastic idea.
LIN: Yes, well, I've been cut short at the counter. You know, sorry, it's 10:59, you can't have a sandwich. You got to have breakfast.
VELSHI: As long as they keep making the hash browns, that's what I don't understand, because I like those.
LIN: And you actually admit to it.
VELSHI: Totally, totally. It's extra time at the gym, but that's what you have to do.
LIN: Yes, sweat it off.
VELSHI: Carol, good to see you, you have a fantastic afternoon.
LIN: See you tomorrow.
VELSHI: And as you're looking at that market, that's the kind of the day we've had today. This afternoon, the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, one of the Federal Reserve Banks, was saying that manufacturing seems to be in a downturn right now. And investors didn't like that news, so we're selling off there about 80 points lower, 11,534.
There is your closing bell. We will continue to look at economic indicators to see whether or not this is really an economic slowdown or now. And that's the kind of thing that's going to cause people to buy or sell.
But for now, you're watching Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
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