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The Situation Room
Did Bush Administration Threaten to Bomb Pakistan?
Aired September 21, 2006 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you tonight's top stories.
Happening now, just a day after President Bush told me he'd send U.S. forces to Pakistan to get Osama bin Laden, there's now new word of a chilling warning from one ally to another. Did the Bush administration threaten to bomb Pakistan back to the Stone Age?
First he called them a devil now Venezuela's Hugo Chavez is calling President Bush a sick man. That has even some Democrats jumping in to defend the president.
And it's 7:00 p.m. here in Washington. In a very emotional interview Senator George Allen of Virginia opens up for the first time about the Jewish roots his family kept secret for decades.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Tonight a developing story, President Bush is urging the Congress to pass a newly struck deal on the interrogation and the trial of terror suspects. The agreement ends a revolt by key Republicans and clears the way for a top GOP election year priority.
Let's go live to our congressional correspondent Andrea Koppel. She is working the story -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, after weeks of acrimonious negotiations which were threatening to break out into the political stratosphere here and have potentially negative implications for the November midterm elections, the three renegade Republicans say that they've reached an acceptable compromise with the White House late this afternoon.
Now, chief among the sticking points was what is known as Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, how to interpret it, how prisoners of war would be treated. Now the White House maintained that they needed that to be clarified. They said it was too vague. The three senators said that they didn't want to change the spirit of the Geneva Conventions because that might make U.S. prisoners of war vulnerable if they were captured on the theater of war.
Now, in order to reach the compromise, what they have done is to rewrite U.S. law to spell out specifically what interrogators can and cannot do when they have suspects in custody. John McCain was leading the charge on this particular issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: An agreement that we've entered into gives the president the tools that he needs to continue to fight the war on terror and bring these evil people to justice. I also believe that it's consistent with the standards under the Detainee Treatment Act and there's no doubt that the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions have been preserved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: Now, another key sticking point that was resolved had to do with how suspects would be tried and what classified evidence they might or might not see. The White House said no classified evidence whatsoever except in extreme cases. Now, Wolf, this is something that the House, specifically the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee has said he absolutely objects to. So clearly there is a lot more negotiating that needs to take place over in the House of Representatives -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. We'll see how they work out this deal. Thanks Andrea very much, an important story on Capitol Hill.
Now to Hugo Chavez and his demonizing swipe at President Bush -- the Venezuelan president raises his devilish talk to even a hotter level today. He's calling the president yes, "the devil" and peppering those comments with a few other choice words.
Let's go to New York. Zain Verjee is covering the story for us -- Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, he's still in the U.S. and still slinging mud at the president. Venezuela's Hugo Chavez had an audience of hundreds in Harlem today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(SOUNDS)
VERJEE (voice-over): All smiles in Harlem, Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez, making a splash at a local church.
(APPLAUSE)
VERJEE: On hand, chanting supporters and a few celebrities including actor Danny Glover.
(APPLAUSE)
VERJEE: Chavez continued his insults of President Bush calling him an ex-alcoholic, a sick man full of complexes, and a swaggering cowboy.
PRES. HUGO CHAVEZ, VENEZUELA (through translator): I think he's a devil. Right now they told me yesterday that I should be careful because they could kill me. Well I'm in God's hands. I'm not afraid. God would only know.
VERJEE: The White House isn't commenting on Chavez's attacks but leading Democrats blasted back.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: You don't come into my country, you don't come into my congressional district, and you don't condemn my president.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: Hugo Chavez fancies himself a modern day Simon Bolivar, but all he is, is an everyday thug.
VERJEE: In an exclusive interview with CNN, Chavez says his problems are not with the American people but with President Bush.
CHAVEZ (through translator): I had a good relationship with Clinton. He never disrespected us. Now with this guy you can't even talk because he walks throwing stones. The Texan that walks shooting from the waist with a machine gun.
VERJEE: Chavez also plays up his tight relationship with Iran and doesn't rule out a nuclear deal.
CHAVEZ (through translator): There is no commitment on the transfer of technology and the handling of nuclear energy for the time being but there could be in the future. Iran has a right just like all countries of the world to develop atomic energy for peaceful means.
VERJEE: Despite his vitriolic anti-U.S. tirades, Chavez is holding out hope for better relations.
CHAVEZ (through translator): In two years when the elections come to the U.S. I hope that the president is a serious man; it doesn't matter if he comes from the right. I'll be the first person to raise my hand in order to re-establish a serious relationship of respect between governments and between people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: The big question is will Mr. Chavez be president two years from now? Half of his country lives in poverty and he's facing the voters in December. The opposition candidate is gaining strength and stands a chance of knocking Mr. Chavez from the throne of power and the media spotlight, Wolf, he seems to crave.
BLITZER: Zain Verjee in New York for us. Thanks Zain, solid reporting.
And we're learning explosive new details tonight that could impact the hunt for Osama bin Laden. Did the United States, the Bush administration, specifically, bully an ally with a blood curdling threat?
Let's get details now. CNN's Brian Todd is watching this story -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, I spoke a short time ago with former U.S. assistant Secretary of State Richard Armitage who's in the middle of this story. Armitage tells me he just met with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf and the relationship between them is fine. But this report does come as the alliance between the two governments seems to hit -- have hit a very sensitive stage.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): The line is consistent among U.S. officials; Pakistan and its president are indispensable American allies in the war on terror. But Pervez Musharraf now indicates they might have been bullied into it. In an interview with CBS' "60 Minutes" Musharraf says after September 11 his intelligence director relayed a message from Richard Armitage then U.S. assistant secretary of state.
If Pakistan didn't help the U.S. in the war on terror, Musharraf says quote, "The intelligence director told me that Armitage said be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the Stone Age." Musharraf says I think it was a very rude remark but says he reacted in a responsible way. I spoke with Richard Armitage who told me he never threatened to bomb Pakistan, wouldn't say such a thing and didn't have the authority to.
Armitage says he did have a tough message for the Pakistani intelligence chief that day, telling him Pakistan had to be quote, "with us or against us." That it was a defining moment for Pakistan and that quote, "history begins today." Armitage says the Pakistani official was shaken after that meeting. This latest news comes after President Bush had this exchange with CNN's Wolf Blitzer on the hunt for al Qaeda leaders.
BLITZER: If you have good actionable intelligence in Pakistan where they were, would you give the order to kill him or capture him...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... to go into Pakistan?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Absolutely.
BLITZER: Even though the Pakistanis say that's their sovereign territory.
BUSH: We would take the action necessary to bring him to justice.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Musharraf later responded to that remark, saying Pakistani forces would do that themselves within Pakistan's borders. As for those post-9/11 exchanges, Richard Armitage says he doesn't know how his message could have been relayed so differently to Musharraf, but he says at least the intelligence director got the message that the U.S. was serious. We also contacted a White House official who would not comment on the Armitage exchange but did say Pakistan is a great ally in the war on terror -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian, thank you, Brian Todd reporting. Jack Cafferty is joining us now from New York with "The Cafferty File" -- lots going on, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Busy night. The American people -- probably not breaking news, the American people are fed up with Congress. So much so that it's a wonder our representatives have the guts to cash their paychecks, I suppose. Check this out. According to a new CBS "New York Times" poll, 77 percent of Americans surveyed say most members of Congress do not deserve to be re-elected, 77 percent.
Get this, 65 percent of Republicans in that survey feel that way. That's the highest percentage of voters who have felt this way since 1994, which is when Republicans won 52 Democratic seats in the House of Representatives thus ending 40 years of Democratic control. Republicans also won the Senate that year.
Most people could not name a single major piece of legislation that made it through this current Congress. And when asked who our representatives in Washington are really working for and representing, 73 percent said most members of Congress are more interested in serving special interest groups. Only 20 percent said they are more interested in serving the people. It's just disgraceful.
Here's the question. What is your biggest complaint about Congress? E-mail us your thoughts on that, CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile. My fervent hope is that the numbers in the survey, Wolf, come to pass. Maybe 77 percent of them won't be re- elected. Wouldn't that be a nice...
BLITZER: Don't hold your breath...
CAFFERTY: Yes, I know.
BLITZER: ... of the 435 members in the House...
CAFFERTY: I know.
BLITZER: ... maybe 30, 40 seats are really at play. We'll get more of that, Jack, coming up -- Jack Cafferty in New York.
Coming up, we're taking you to Baghdad for a reality check. Is what is happening on the ground the same as what President Bush told me?
Plus, Bill Clinton taking the White House to task on Iraq, specifically the vice president, Dick Cheney, this is another CNN exclusive. And Senator George Allen of Virginia breaking his silence for the first time about a decade's old family secret, his very emotional exclusive interview with me. That's coming up right here in THE SITUATION ROOM. You'll want to see this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: More now on the rift in the making between two allies in the war on terror. Is there such a rift? The Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf was quick to voice his displeasure after President Bush told me yesterday in my exclusive interview that he'd consider sending U.S. forces there in pursuit of al Qaeda leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: If you had good actionable intelligence in Pakistan where they were, would you give the order to kill him or capture him...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... to go into Pakistan?
BUSH: Absolutely.
BLITZER: Even though the Pakistanis say...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... it is their sovereign territory.
BUSH: We would take the action necessary to bring him to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Today I spoke with the former secretary of state, Madeleine Albright.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Was it wise for President Bush yesterday to candidly acknowledge you know what, if they knew, if they had actionable intelligence where bin Laden was, even across sovereign lines in Pakistan, they would go after him.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Well I guess you asked him the question so he had to respond. And I think he did have to make clear that we would go after Osama bin Laden. President Musharraf, as you said, is not very happy. And I think that they need to figure out now how diplomacy can help this.
But the truth of the matter is that the United States had an opportunity to get Osama bin Laden earlier at Tora Bora and didn't take that opportunity. And I think that what is very important now is to make sure that we are fighting various aspects of terrorism, but Bush, you know, has really responded to your question and it really shows the role of the media in looking at how some foreign policy decisions are made. It's very interesting case.
BLITZER: I know you were angry at that ABC movie that was aired a week or two ago, a movie suggesting that you and other former officials in the Clinton administration had opportunities throughout the eight years of the Clinton administration to kill or capture bin Laden, but you didn't do the job you were supposed to do. I wonder if you would want to respond to that allegation.
ALBRIGHT: Well, I thought that the movie was total, you know was fiction and that was our real problem with it. And on a very particular case which had to do warning the Pakistanis of the facts were totally wrong. It was Secretary Cohen and the Defense Department that wanted to make sure that the Pakistanis did not think they were being attack by India at a time that we were launching cruise missiles against Osama bin Laden.
So when the missiles were already in the air, Joe Ralston, who was vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was with the Pakistanis. So they -- I think there is always a concern in that part of the world that they think somebody else has launched the missiles. But I think that now that President Bush has responded to the question, President Musharraf is warned about this and I hope very much that they work out some way that this is not a cause for greater problems than we have at this point.
BLITZER: If you were still secretary of state, what would you be doing differently, if anything, as far as the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is concerned? Would you be talking directly with him even as he goes forward and enriches uranium?
ALBRIGHT: I think the real problem is that I don't think it's the right time for president-to-president talks. What I have thought for a long time is that we need to have a dialogue with the Iranians. You can't accomplish anything if you are not talking to the other side. We make peace with our enemies not with our friends.
And so I would have advocated and do advocate dialogue, but I think that it is not necessary at this stage in a presidential level and I am really sorry that President Ahmadinejad has not taken opportunities here to talk about the real issue, which is how to lessen nuclear danger and instead has used the platforms at the United Nations to make spurious attacks. I don't think it has been very useful.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Madeleine Albright, the former secretary of state, speaking with me earlier.
And still to come tonight in THE SITUATION ROOM, Senator George Allen breaking his silence for the first time about a decades old family secret. It's a powerful, emotional exclusive interview. We'll talk about his Jewish roots.
And Sir Richard Branson's $3-billion give away. Find out why he's giving away a fortune. He's joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM as well. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It's his own billion-dollar baby. He's brash. He's British. He's a billionaire and he's very passionate about a global issue and now he's putting his money where his mind is.
And joining us now Sir Richard Branson who's made a major announcement today. Sir Richard, thanks very much. We all knew you were committed to fighting global warming, but $3 billion. That's a pretty significant commitment. Tell our viewers what your initiative is all about.
SIR RICHARD BRANSON, FOUNDER & CHAIRMAN, VIRGIN GROUP: Well, it sounds like a big figure and obviously it is a big figure, but compared to what the oil companies are producing and spending every year in dirty fields, it's still I'm afraid quite insignificant. But what we're trying to do is spend the money that we earn from our transportation businesses, the monies that the Virgin Group get in dividends. The monies that we will get in share sales to apply 100 percent of that money back into research and developing clean fields.
BLITZER: So the theory is that it's estimated your various companies will earn over the next decade, what, about $3 billion. And you say you want to pump all of that into this effort to come up with other energy sources that do not contribute to global warming.
BRANSON: Yes. I mean I've particularly chosen our transportation companies because airlines produce two percent of the global CO2 every year. And therefore you know people are going to need to travel. But we've -- but it's very important that we address our own books and we balance the damage that we're doing. But more to that -- more than that the fight against global warming has to be fought by everybody.
BLITZER: Sir Richard, what do you say to those skeptics out there, those critics who insist that the earth is simply going to recycle right now and this whole notion of global warming is a myth?
BRANSON: Well, first of all, I just wish they were right. But -- and if I go back you know six or seven years, I was a skeptic, myself, but over the last seven years you know I have read many books. I mean people like you know Tim Flannery, "The Weather Makers". I've met many scientists.
I spent -- you know I spent two hours with Al Gore about nine months ago who urged me to do you know just what I announced today. And I really believe that we have a real problem facing the world. Now, even if we don't, let's say there's a 10 percent chance that we don't have a real problem. As an insurance policy, the least we should do is to try to change our fuels from conventional fuels to clean fuels. And so that just -- you know in case those -- you know those 90 percent or 98 percent of scientists are right, you know at least we've got the insurance policy to make sure the world is safe and our children and grandchildren have a future.
BLITZER: Sir Richard Branson made the announcement today, the $3-billion announcement at Bill Clinton, the global initiative conference in New York. Sir Richard thanks very much for coming in.
BRANSON: Thanks very much. BLITZER: And just ahead, the former president on the current presidency. Bill Clinton blasting the Bush White House saying Vice President Dick Cheney wanted an Iraq war long before the war actually began. And President Bush says Iraq is not in a civil war and that you can't necessarily trust the news media to show you what is going on. We'll take you to the ground in Baghdad. You can see for yourself.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: To our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Happening now, a truce over terrorism. The Bush administration and rebel Republicans agree on measures to interrogate and try terror suspects. The president says this clears the way to get secrets out of detainees and he's urging Congress to pass the compromise.
A tighter grip in Thailand, the country's new military rulers detain four allies of the deposed prime minister. They're also restricting political activities two days after seizing power.
Nuclear debate, the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, is calling for his country to pursue nuclear power. The U.S. ambassador to Egypt says Washington would be willing to help its Mideast ally develop a program for peaceful purposes.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
President Bush and former President Bill Clinton were all smiles when their paths crossed at the United Nations earlier in the week, but now Mr. Clinton is unleashing some strong words about the Bush administration's decision to go to war in Iraq.
Let's go to CNN's Tom Foreman. He's following the story -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, President Clinton is promoting his agenda to fight overseas poverty and disease this week. That's what's on the main agenda, but last night he took a slight detour from diplomacy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop killing one another.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Former President Clinton stepped into the Iraq debate last night in an interview with CNN's Larry King.
LARRY KING, CNN'S "LARRY KING LIVE": Vice President Cheney said -- knowing all he knows he would still go back. Would you?
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Of course he would because the evidence is made clear now that he and the other proponents of the Iraq war did not care whether he had weapons of mass destruction, did not care whether he's involved with 9/11, did not care whether the evidence showed any of this or not. That they had made their mind up in advance that this was the thing to do, that would it help to make a new Middle East...
FOREMAN: Political observers say these are the harshest words they've heard from the former president against the administration, but Clinton's office said his attack is not new. In response to Clinton, a Cheney spokeswoman pointed to the vice president's remarks on NBC's "Meet The Press" this month.
RICHARD B. CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You have a man who had demonstrated capacity for violence, who started two wars, who had in fact been involved with weapons of mass destruction, who had every intention of going back to it when the sanctions were lifted. It was the right thing to do, and if we had it to do over again we would do exactly the same thing.
TIM RUSSERT, "MEET THE PRESS": Exactly the same thing.
CHENEY: Yes, sir.
FOREMAN: Cheney's office added that Clinton himself has said Saddam was a threat but the former president last night suggested another motivation for the war.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I think they thought it might clean their own skirts a little since most of what Saddam did that was really terrible he did when he had the full support of the Republican administrations in the 80s, of which Dick Cheney was a part. Now, to be fair to them, it was the example of the old adage that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
CHENEY: There is no evidence that the president had any ...
FOREMAN: During the 1980s, Cheney served as a member of Congress. At the time the U.S. was embracing and aiding Saddam Hussein during his country's war with its neighbor, Iran. President Bush in an exclusive interview in THE SITUATION ROOM yesterday stood by the war.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I regret when people lose lives. But presidents don't get to do do-overs but I believe that the decision was the right decision.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: Political analysts -- and we have got plenty of those here in Washington -- point out that former presidents' words don't always have much political consequence, not in a real sense as controversial they may be. But this former president is, after all, named Bill Clinton. He still has a lot of followers in this country and no doubt they are listening very closely -- Wolf.
BLITZER: That was an interesting report. Thanks very much for that. Tom Foreman reporting.
Iraq's Defense Ministry is warning of an alarming new tactic being used by insurgents. Get this. Officials say they are kidnapping people, then, without their knowledge, rigging their cars with explosives. The captives are then set free, only to have insurgents detonate the car bombs by remote control. That news comes as violence in Iraq spirals out of control.
I talked about that violence with President Bush yesterday in my exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I can't -- frankly, can't learn it from your newscast. What I have got to learn it from is people who are there on the ground. The Iraqi government and the Iraqi military is committed to keeping this country together. So, therefore, I reject the notion that this country is in civil war based upon experts, not based upon people who are speculating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Our correspondent Michael Ware has been spending some time outside what is called the Green Zone. He gets out there. You did an excellent piece yesterday, Michael, on the al Qaeda movement in Iraq right now even, in the aftermath of the killing of the former al Qaeda leader there, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Is this or is this not a civil war?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly feels like a civil war to the people on the street when you go out and mix with people, something that President Bush's sources, General Casey and Ambassador Khalilzad, simply cannot do. You get the sense from people that it feels to us like a civil war when my neighbor's body is showing up dead on the street or on the rear allotment, and it's happening repeatedly.
I can't send my kids to school because they have to cross sectarian lines. The marketplace blew up three days ago for no apparent reason. These people say this feels like civil war.
And if President Bush talks about Ambassador Khalilzad and General Casey as his sources of information, these people -- everyone within the U.S. forces live in a bubble. They couldn't be further distanced from Iraqi reality than humanly imaginable -- Wolf.
BLITZER: But there are, what 140,000 plus U.S. troops in Iraq. Presumably, they go out there just as you do. They try to meet with Iraqi people, and they report back to their commanders on what they see and hear.
WARE: Yes, there's a number of things here. For a start, we live in what we call the military calls the Red Zone. We live with Iraqis. We have Iraqis all around us. So it's very easy for us to get the mood of the people. We live with it. As petrol prices go up or go down or whether electricity was on last night or not.
The only time the military visits someone's house is for a military purpose, and it's always heavily armed and ready to go. They can't just visit, sit down and have a cup of tea and an honest chat.
The other thing is what commanders are sending from the field doesn't necessarily reach the top. And if it does, there's so many disconnects in between and so many filters that I, time and time again, come across commanders and intelligence officers expressing such frustration at what they see as the distortional reinterpretation of their work before it reaches people like the president, their commander in chief, Wolf.
BLITZER: You spent some time with al Qaeda operatives inside Iraq in recent days. How do you do that, Michael? How do you get out there and you meet these guys. You got to be scared out of your mind.
WARE: Well, Wolf, I've been here since before the invasion. I'm entering my three-and-a-half years. I'm now awaiting my fourth Ramadan, or holy month offensive. I mean, so I've been here a long time.
I met many of these people when they were still reeling from the aftermath of the invasion. This is Saddam's top generals, his brigadiers, his colonels, his top intelligence elite. And so I've known them since they've become disillusioned to move to the insurgency. So this is not easily done, and it's come over a long time, Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael Ware is a brilliant, brilliant reporter, an extremely courageous guy, and nice guy as well. Good luck over there and be careful, Michael.
And still ahead tonight, a senator's emotional and painful journey. His family's secret Jewish heritage revealed. My exclusive and candid interview with Republican George Allen of Virginia.
And if they gave out awards for the wildest moments at the United Nations, Venezuela's Hugo Chavez would take top honors. And you can count on our Jeanne Moos to be undiplomatic. Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Tonight, we're learning more about Senator George Allen's long-held family secret in an emotional and exclusive interview. For the first time, the Virginia Republican is now opening up about his Jewish heritage, just days after trying to deflect questions about it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And joining us now, Senator George Allen, Republican of Virginia. Senator, thanks very much for coming in.
SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: Good to be with you, Wolf.
BLITZER: This is a difficult week for you and it started really, publicly at least, on Monday at that debate in northern Virginia. I want to play a little bit of that clip, what happened. (END VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Following the macaca episode, the Jewish press published stories that appeared on the Internet that explored your possible Jewish ancestry on your mother's side.
You have been quoted as saying your mother is not Jewish, but it has been reported that her father, your grandfather, Felix, whom you were given your middle name for, was Jewish. Could you please tell us whether your forbearers include Jews, and, if so, at which point Jewish identity might have ended?
(BOOING)
ALLEN: You know what? I'm glad you all have that -- I'm glad you have that reaction.
You know what our -- our first freedom in our country was? Freedom of religion, where people's rights are not enhanced nor diminished on account of their religious beliefs. Thomas Jefferson was the author of that.
As we try to stand up free and just societies, that's the first pillar of a free and just society. And to be getting into what religion my mother is, I don't think is relevant. Whether one person believes in -- whatever their beliefs may be is not relevant.
And, so, I would like to ask you, why is that relevant, my religion, Jim's religion, or the religious beliefs of anyone out there?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ALLEN: My mother is French-Italian ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Honesty...
ALLEN: ... with a little Spanish blood in her.
And -- and I have been raised, and she was, as far as I know, raised as a Christian. But if -- if you really need to get into such matters...
UNIDENTIFIED: Honesty, that's all just -- that -- that's what...
ALLEN: Oh, that's just all. That's just all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right, Senator.
At that point, Monday, you knew by then your mother was, in fact, Jewish.
ALLEN: I knew that my mother's parents were Jewish. She was born into a Jewish family. When she was a kid, she had converted and was confirmed in the Anglican Church. What bothered me at that time was that -- the way the question was answered, is that somebody's rights might be enhanced, nor diminished on account of religious beliefs. And I have always felt very strongly about freedom of religion. And I do feel it's the first pillar of a free and just society.
And I knew what she was getting at, also. And my mother -- I asked my mother about this late -- late in August. There was some article in -- I believe it was called "The Forward."
BLITZER: A Jewish publication in Europe, "The Forward..."
ALLEN: Right.
BLITZER: ... published a short article...
ALLEN: Right.
BLITZER: ... saying that you had Jewish ancestry.
ALLEN: Right. And it -- it talked about how somebody -- that they were in Portugal and then went to Livornia, or someplace like that.
And I always knew my mother was Italian and French and a little Spanish, and so I was with my mother across the table. And I asked her. I said, you know, there's these rumors flying around here that -- that you're Jewish or, you know, Jewish bloodlines and so forth. And I asked her, is this -- is there anything to this? '
And I saw her reaction. And she said, yes, there are.
And I said, well, why didn't you ever tell?
I didn't want to tell you. Do you love me? You won't love me as much.
I said, oh, ma, why would that make -- I love you even more. I respect you even more.
When I heard of why she had hid this, for fear of -- of retribution, of stigma, and -- and how that would harm not just her, but my father and her children, she was protecting her children.
And I said, well, ma, this just doesn't matter. You know, the Nazis are gone. And it just doesn't matter.
And she says -- especially when she said, does this make you love me any less?
And I just, no, I loved her more.
And I said, well, this -- let's just stop. You know, this -- there's no reason to carry on with this.
She -- so, she said, please, please, you cannot tell anyone. Tell no one. No one.
BLITZER: Why was she -- why was she still so...
ALLEN: And I said, well, I got to tell -- does Bruce know this? Does -- do my other brothers and sisters?
No. And she said, don't tell.
I promise.
You promise? You can't tell anybody?
And I said, ma, it doesn't matter.
And -- and, so, when you get to this, it's a question, you know, what's more important, a question -- a political question from a reporter, or your mother? And my answer was defending my mother, and, as a son, protecting your mother, and knowing how much this still meant to her. And...
BLITZER: Did you father know, George Allen, the former great football coach? All of us loved him, especially those of us who are Redskins fans. Did he know the background of your mother and her family?
ALLEN: Yes. I found that out, too. I said, hey, did dad know?
Because there were concerns of, my father was Catholic, my mother, first of all, not a Catholic, but Anglican, and with Jewish heritage. She hid that because -- for those fears as well.
BLITZER: Was -- was it -- was -- was...
ALLEN: But my -- but my father did know. She told me my father knew.
BLITZER: Because, in today's "Washington Post," they interviewed your mother, and -- and the suggestion was that his family would have been upset knowing of her Jewish ancestry.
ALLEN: That's true, and she shared that with me.
Wolf, this is more -- more than any sort of political campaign. This is so personal. To think that a person 70 years, 60 years since the Nazis is still having that pain in her, it's still paining her; she still lives in fear of that intimidation, that bigotry, that prejudice, that anti-Semitism, still is fearful in my mother.
And to see her hurt and to think that there are millions of others, and that we're hurt by this as well, that the person you love is still in fear and worrying, and that she's hid this all these years, and she was worried that her friends wouldn't like her if they found this out.
And I just told her, ma, it doesn't matter. We love you for who you are. BLITZER: Some people, when they saw the clip from the debate on Monday, they saw your reaction, irritation, and we didn't know what was going on at the time, came away and said, why is he so sensitive about maybe having some Jewish heritage? Is he embarrassed about that? Is he afraid that anti-Semites in Virginia might not vote for him if they think there's some Jewish history there?
You understand why it caused that kind of reaction?
ALLEN: I don't know what all the reaction is for, whether political or otherwise.
I know that the audience also thought it was inappropriate. But I'll tell you what I was thinking. I was thinking of my mother. I was thinking as a son, and I wanted to protect my mother and her wishes and the promise I made to her.
And I'm glad that she has now released me from that promise.
BLITZER: The latest Mason-Dixon Poll, George Allen, 46 percent, Jim Webb, 42 percent.
It's getting to be a fairly close race right now, the stumble with the Macaca comment a month or so ago.
Give us your assessment of the political fallout, how this is going to impact your chances for reelection.
ALLEN: I don't know the political -- you can talk to all the political consultants. They're the experts on all that.
All I know is that the people of Virginia have known me. They've seen my actions as governor, and, the last six years, as United States senator.
BLITZER: The word Macaca, a lot of people -- I never heard of that word before. A lot of people are wondering, where did you find that word?
ALLEN: I made it -- I made it up.
BLITZER: Because, in French, especially in Northern Africa, it's a derogatory term for dark-skinned people.
ALLEN: The -- the word in French -- and my mother is, as you saw in the "Washington Post" article, looked it up, and there is no such word in that dictionary. It's Macac.
I would never use a word -- I would never use a word that, in any -- if I had any inkling, any idea that the word would be offensive to someone, I would not use it. It's not who I am. It's not how I was raised.
BLITZER: Senator, thanks very much.
ALLEN: Thank you, Wolf. (END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Up ahead, diplomatic antics with semantics. Jeanne Moos has the devilish details. Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Jack is in New York with "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Thanks, Wolf. A new poll shows 77 percent of Americans say most members of Congress don't deserve to be reelected. So the question this hour is what's your biggest complaint about Congress? Got a lot of mail.
Karen in Pennsylvania -- "My biggest problem with Congress: There's no oversight. When they pretend to have hearings, no one is under oath."
Johnny in Texas -- "It's obvious congressional members place their political survival ahead of the needs of the people. Witness the panicky legislative actions taking place now."
Don in Denver, Colorado, who doesn't like me apparently -- "I want them to re-regulate the media. Congress doesn't deserve their paychecks, and quite frankly, neither do you."
Norman in Virginia -- "My biggest complaint with Congress is the lack of term limits. If there was, say, a blanket total, 12 years of public service term limit, there'd be regular infusions of new blood in Congress, and all the old dinosaurs would finally be put out to pasture."
Dick in Seattle writes -- "It's time for the third Continental Congress. Let's just start the whole thing over."
Tom in Alabama -- "Other than the fact that they're incompetent, lazy, arrogant, out of touch, overpaid and do nothing for the American people, they do a fine job."
Brian in San Diego -- "Biggest complaint about Congress: They still have a pulse."
And Barbie in Burbank, California -- "They just don't eat enough spinach."
If you didn't see your e-mail here, you can go to CNN.com/caffertyfile and read some more on them online -- Wolf.
BLITZER: I suspect people will do that if they want a nice little laugh, Jack. See you tomorrow, thank you very much.
What exactly was that book the Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez held up during his fiery speech at the United Nations yesterday? Thanks to Chavez, it's now become a best-seller overnight. Jacki Schechner has details -- Jacki. JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, the book is called "Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance." And it's a harsh critique of U.S. foreign policy. It's written by the leftist philosopher and writer Noam Chomsky, and it was written in 2003. So it would be no surprise that on Amazon.com, the online book seller, the book was number 20,664. Then Chavez lifted the book at the U.N., and today it's number two. If you go over to BarnesandNoble.com it's now lifted to the ranks of number six.
We spoke to Amazon earlier today, and while they stopped short of calling the move unprecedented, they were hard pressed to find a similar example. They also pointed out that that jump was a 516,000 percent leap, 516,000 percent leap. We reached out to Chomsky today to get a reaction to a new surge in sales, but he didn't have a comment -- Wolf.
BLITZER: I wonder if they have enough books in print. If not, I suspect they will print some more. Thanks very much, Jacki, for that.
Let's check in with Paula. She's coming up right at the top of the hour. Hi, Paula.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Imagine -- hi, Wolf -- any author not having a reaction to his book sales shooting up like that.
Tonight, Wolf, we're going to look at two of the biggest thorns in President Bush's side. Are the presidents of both Iran and Venezuela making any friends in the U.S. or changing any minds?
Plus, the Guantanamo 14. The U.S. says they are among the worst terrorists in the world. Find out who they are and what they are accused of doing. All that coming up at the top of the hour.
BLITZER: Thanks, Paula. We'll be watching.
And Still ahead, wacky diplomats. A stiff competition between Iran and Venezuela for the most ridiculous moments at the United Nations. But our Jeanne Moos on top of the story. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Some of our hot shots of the day.
The devil may be in the details, but his name seems to be on the lips of Venezuela's president a lot this week. And that's just the beginning of the odd diplomatic antics. CNN's Jeanne Moos explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The name calling has gone a little cuckoo. The president who tosses around axis of evil expected a showdown with the government that calls the U.S. the Great Satan, but the Great Satan insult got totally overshadowed by the devil.
HUGO CHAVEZ, PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA (through translator): And the devil came here yesterday. Yesterday the devil came here. Right here.
MOOS: Venezuela's leader called President Bush the devil about eight times. But who's counting? Probably the junior notetaker, scribbling away in the U.S. seat. All the high-ranking U.S. officials shunned Hugo Chavez's speech.
CHAVEZ (through translator): The devil's recipe.
MOOS: Which earned him the tabloid nickname El Loco Lefty.
It has been a weird week at the U.N. There was Bolivia's president, brandishing a cocoa leaf to rebuke the U.S. for criticism of Bolivia's anti-drug policies.
PRES. EVO MORALES, BOLIVIA (through translator): Here's a cocoa leaf. You see it? It's not white, like cocaine.
MOOS: The cocoa leaf got applause, and a devil remark got a giggle.
The flamboyant Chavez has become a media magnet. At a press conference, he bantered with an attractive reporter.
Another time he noticed a reporter's birthmark on her forehead and suggested it was like his, only much prettier.
On Thursday, he headed for church in Harlem, where he sat like Santa, holding kids on his lap. And when he tried to draw this girl in for a photo, she resisted.
This time, he called President Bush an alcoholic, and once again, the devil.
Outside, anti-Chavez Venezuelans called President Chavez Fidel's new pet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's crazy. He's the devil himself.
MOOS: Chavez's speech, by the way, got prolonged applause, 40 seconds. President Bush's only got 15 seconds. What the devil were they thinking?
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: It's our Jeanne Moos. Only Jeanne Moos can get those kinds of reports for you, and we feature her a lot right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
We're in "THE SITUATION ROOM" weekday afternoons 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. Eastern, back for another hour at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until tomorrow, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Up next, "PAULA ZAHN NOW" -- Paula.
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