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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Did Invasion of Iraq Make U.S. Safer?
Aired September 25, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, a political firestorm in Washington over the war against radical Islamic terrorists. Did President Bush's decision to invade Iraq make this country less safe? We'll have complete coverage on that issue and others here today.
And insurgents have killed five more of our troops in Iraq and disturbing new evidence that the U.S. Army is almost at the breaking point. The chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, is among our guests tonight.
All of that and much more, here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Monday, September 25. Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
A political showdown in Washington tonight about whether or not the war in Iraq has made this country less safe from terrorist attack. Democrats today blasted the Bush administration after portions of a linked intelligence report suggests the war in Iraq has fueled radical Islamic terrorism across the globe. Republicans said this country simply cannot afford to fail in Iraq.
At the same time, there is new evidence tonight indicating the war in Iraq has stretched our military almost to the breaking point. Thousands of troops are staying in Iraq longer than planned. Other troops will rotate into Iraq earlier than scheduled.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from the White House on the political firestorm over the leaked intelligence assessment. Michael Ware tonight reports from Baghdad on the dangerous new threats to our troops from Al Qaeda in Iraq. And Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon on the risk that our military will break under the strain of fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We turn first to Suzanne Malveaux at the White House -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: Well, Lou, the White House is certainly on the defensive here today. They've got weeks away from the congressional midterm elections, and now they are dealing with this NIE report. I spoke to both the counsel to the president Dan Bartlett as well as his Homeland Security adviser Fran Townsend. They make a couple of very important points.
First, they say, this is portions of a leaked report. It is just that, portions. They say that does not tell the whole picture or the whole story. More importantly, they say that perhaps while this report makes the case that Iraq war is supporting these terrorist cells around the world, being used as a recruitment tool, they say nowhere does this report conclude that Americans are less safe because of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN BARTLETT, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR: We fully recognize and have talked about the fact that the propagandas, within the extremist movement, use Iraq and other grievances as a recruitment tool. It doesn't make any final judgments to say that America is less safe or not because of this. It's just saying they use this to use as a recruitment tool.
FRAN TOWNSEND, HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: It does not say that the war in Iraq has worsened the terror situation for the United States.
MALVEAUX: So, what does this say, Lou? They do say -- and they concede -- is that what it says is that Al Qaeda is more diffuse, there are smaller cells, copy cat cells and this does make for a more challenging environment in fighting the war on terror. But they say Iraq is just one element of that, that there are other factors involved, but that they're classified.
I asked Dan Bartlett as well, as Fran Townsend, then why not have the administration declassify this document and provide the full picture here? They have certainly done that in the past. President Bush, of course, declassifying part of an NIE related to Iraq and the alleged weapons of mass destruction. An other case, the most recent one, declassifying that CIA secret interrogation program. But Bartlett saying that he felt this did not rise to that occasion.
BARTLETT: I think you're going to have a negative effect on those analysts who are trying to give very candid advice, or very candid estimates -- that's what they are -- to the president, or to policy makers on Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou, of course the administration may change its mind. Already there is quite a bit of political pressure on the Hill, not only from Democrats but also from very powerful Republicans, the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee also saying, look, we think you ought to put those portions that will clear the situations up out in the public to make your case. They are quite concerned. You're talking about weeks away from midterm elections and they certainly don't want to pay the price for this one -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much. Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.
Two retired generals today blasted Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for what they call incompetence and bad leadership. Major General John Batiste and Major General Paul Eaton made their comments at a hearing organized by Senate Democrats, on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJ. GEN. JOHN BATISTE, U.S. ARMY (RET.): This is all about accountability and setting our nation up for victory. There is no substitute for victory, and I believe we must complete what we started in Iraq and Afghanistan. Donald Rumsfeld is not a competent wartime leader. He knows everything except how to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Republicans responded calling the Democrat-sponsored hearing an election year smoke screen. One of them, Senator John Cornyn said the hearing was aimed at obscuring what he called the Democrat's dismal record on national security.
Al Qaeda remains one of the most dangerous threats to our troops three and a half years after the war began. The United States killed Al Qaeda in Iraq , Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi in June. But that appears to have done little, or nothing to reduce the number and threat of Al Qaeda attacks. Michael Ware reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: The war in Iraq has made Al Qaeda stronger, not weaker, according to a secret U.S. government report. The top 16 American intelligence agencies have told President Bush that Al Qaeda, and Islamic militants, across the world are growing in reach and in influence as a result of the war in Iraq.
Indeed, the report says, as many people forewarned, as much as two years ago, that Iraq is now the platform on which the next generation of Al Qaeda leaders are being built. It's from here that they say there is now ever-increasing risk to see an export of terrorism.
This is the fulfillment of Osama bin Laden and the late terrorist leader Abu Musab Al Zarqawi's vision. They were looking for a platform after Afghanistan to create this new breed of Al Qaeda. According to these U.S. intelligence agencies, that's precisely what has happened now. This significantly undercuts President Bush's strategy for the global war on terror. It suggests that the very thing the president came to Iraq to prevent, he has in fact fostered.
And that's coming from his own intelligence agencies. What brings into question now is why was this report leaked or revealed now? Perhaps it's a reflection of the growing friction that we see here on the ground between U.S. military commanders and intelligence agencies, and their political masters back in Washington, D.C. -- Lou.
DOBBS: Michael Ware from Baghdad.
British troops in southern Iraq today killed a top Al Qaeda leader, who had escaped a U.S. prison in Afghanistan last year. And 250 British troops raided the Al Qaeda leader's hideout, in the southern Iraqi city of Basra. The British military said the troops killed Omar Faruk after he opened fire on the soldiers. American officials say Faruk was one of Osama bin Laden's top leaders and Al Qaeda's leader in Southeast Asia, before he was captured in 2002.
Insurgents in Iraq have killed five more of our troops. Two Marines were killed in Al Anbar Province yesterday. One of our soldiers was killed in Baghdad Saturday. Two more soldiers dying of their wounds in the hospital. And 57 of our troops have now been killed in Iraq so far this month; 2,700 of our troops have been killed since the beginning of the war.
New evidence tonight that the Army has stretched almost to the breaking point by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army today ordered a brigade of the 1st Armored Division to stay longer in Iraq than had been scheduled. At the same time, the Army Chief of Staff General Peter Schoomaker said the Army cannot meet its current commitments without billions and billions of dollars more in funding. Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT (voice over): Thousands of Army soldiers will now stay on the front lines in Iraq longer than expected, or go into combat sooner than planned. In Ramadi, where Al Qaeda and insurgent attacks have raged, a brigade of the 1st Armored Division has been ordered to stay.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: From time to time, there may be units that will be asked to increase the number of days in country from what had been anticipated. On the other hand, we're also bringing some other units in earlier.
STARR: About 4,000 troops had expected to be home by January. But now, they will stay. So another unit from the 3rd Infantry Division will have at least 12 months back in Georgia with their families, before they return to combat.
All of this is happening because the Pentagon has to find a way to keep up to 145,000 troops in Iraq through the spring of next year. And about 4,000 troops from the first cavalry division in Texas will go to Baghdad 30 days early, beginning in late October. The Bush administration hopes that will allow soldiers from Alaska's 172nd Stryker Brigade to return home beginning by Thanksgiving. That unit was already extended and has suffered several casualties.
Army Chief of Staff General Peter Schoomaker now taking the unprecedented step of refusing to sign off on the Army's proposed budget, because he believes it doesn't have enough money for the badly worn out force. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, essentially, playing it all down.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We've been in discussions with the Army for some weeks. Just as we are with the other services.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: You know, Lou, the military often complains, especially to Congress, that it doesn't have enough money. But the General Schoomaker by all accounts is a man of extraordinary principles and he believes at this point, the Army simply doesn't have the funding that it needs, especially, because no one can say, of course, how long U.S. troops will be in Iraq or Afghanistan -- Lou.
DOBBS: Barbara, it is not easy to explain, is it, how the chief of staff of the U.S. Army, a highly respected, highly decorated general, is saying, point blank to his civilian leadership, that this Army is near the breaking point. That if they are to retain this strategy and these levels of commitments in Iraq, Afghanistan, around the world, and in the global war on terror, that he needs billions and billions and billions of dollars more to do so, that his troops are worn out, that there aren't a sufficient number of troops, that his equipment is being worn out and there has to be a strategy going forward. How in the world can the secretary of defense, as you say, play that down?
STARR: Well, behind the scenes, what we are told is, number one, that General Schoomaker and the secretary are in what one official calls negotiations about how to go forward from here. But, Lou, make no mistake, the General Schoomaker is a man of principles, as one of his colleagues said to me in the hallway of the Pentagon, earlier today, the General Schoomaker came to town with his red pick-up truck and his reputation and he's going to leave someday with both of those -- Lou.
DOBBS: That is all well and good. But the General Schoomaker has been there for sometime, and we've got 2700 dead Americans in Iraq . And this general's staff has not distinguished itself from the General Schoomaker, throughout, in its conduct of this war, have they?
STARR: Well, I suppose that would really be an issue for the voters to decide in November. General Schoomaker has repeatedly said on Capitol Hill to members of Congress, in open testimony, that the Army needs more money and now it is very bluntly going to be between Don Rumsfeld and Congress as to how that budget shapes up.
The way it works is that General Schoomaker general gives his best military advice and he either stays on the job and accepts what happens or he does not. And he is making a very pointed statement here, by not signing that budget document that he doesn't find it acceptable, this is his opportunity to back up what he's been saying in public testimony to put his -- not put his name on a document, essentially.
DOBBS: Barbara, thank you very much. Barbara Starr reporting from the Pentagon, now at the nexus of a considerable political contest.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe that the Congress and Senate should now hold floor debates on the conduct of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later.
Coming right up, the chairman of the powerful House Armed Services Committee Congressman Duncan Hunter will be among our guests here. Also the federal government raising spending on port security but will our ports be safer. We'll have that special report. And a closely watched ruling in Colorado on e-voting. It could be implications for the nation and our midterm elections.
President Clinton says he got closer to killing Osama bin Laden than anyone else. Is the former president right? We'll have that report and the answer. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Mexican President Vicente Fox is finally speaking out on the issue of the rise in violent crime across his country. President Fox admits that violence in Mexico is increasing, but Fox argues that violent crime in Mexico is a growing problem in the United States as well. And Fox says the United States has to work on its own rising crime rates.
Fox failed to mention that some 1,500 drug-related murders have been reported across Mexico just so far this year. At least 160 drug- related killings have taken place in Nuevo Laredo, Texas alone, just across the border from Laredo, Texas.
New violence in Nuevo Laredo late Friday evening; Mexican federal agents battled drug traffickers in a wild shootout that lasted some 40 minutes. Several people were killed in the gun battle. The violence came the day after Mexican and U.S. officials met to, as they put it, urgently discuss escalating violence, and the crisis in Mexico.
President Fox today promised to, quote, "resolve the conflict" in the Mexican state of Oaxaca before his term ends in December. Demonstrators in the province of Oaxaca have been trying to overthrow the government there for months. And the demonstrations have become increasingly frequent and violent.
Yesterday gunmen exchanged gun fire with protesters outside a popular hotel. Dozens of tourists, residents, and journalists were running for cover. The State Department warning all Americans not to travel to Oaxaca and other Mexican states, particularly in northern Mexico, because of the rise in what the United States is now calling brutal violence in Mexico.
In Houston, Texas tonight an illegal alien is charged with a cold-blooded murder of a veteran police officer. Police say the illegal alien shot officer Rodney Johnson four times in the back of the head, after being picked up during a routine traffic stop.
Houston police say the illegal alien, Juan Leonardo Quantaro (ph), pulled out a gun while handcuffed in the backseat of Johnson's patrol car. Officer Johnson didn't find the suspect's gun during a search. Quantaro (ph) was deported back in 2004 for a sex crime against a child. He then crossed the border illegally, returning to the United States.
The police chief of Houston tonight blames politicians in Washington for the death of Officer Johnson. He says because of their failure to secure this nation's borders.
One of those Washington politicians, Senator Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader, is trying to win last minute pass of a new border security-only bill. Senator Frist, you may remember, was once an aggressive supporter of so-called comprehensive immigration reform as the president likes to call it; reform that critics call nothing more than amnesty for illegal aliens.
Now that comprehensive immigration reform is as dead as it can be in Congress, Senator Frist is talking, now, about the importance of border security; saying over the weekend, quote, "Anybody, any reasonable person knows that if you're going to address immigration reform, you have to first and foremost secure our borders."
Senator Frist, welcome aboard.
He is hoping to push through a bill this week approving the construction of 700 miles of new fencing along our 2,000-mile-long Mexican border.
The Department of Homeland Security today announced a 300 percent increase in port security funding for the New York City/New Jersey areas.
Supporters of tough port security say the United States must do more and immediately to finally secure the nation's vulnerable ports. Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT (voice over): The administration is cracking open its wallet to spend a little on port security. Homeland Secretary Michael Chertoff announcing his department will provide $168 million on port security efforts this year.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, DIR., HOMELAND SECURITY: We expect to see the fruits of this investment not only this coming year but in the years to come.
TUCKER: In New York, the news was greeted with reserve.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER, (D) NEW YORK: The bottom line is had we been doing what we should be doing years ago, our ports could now be safe. They could be screened for nuclear weapons. All the containers could be checked so that nothing illicit was coming in. And we're way, way behind.
TUCKER: The senator went on to describe current spending on port security as quote, "peanuts". Yet, the money was welcome.
REP. PETER KING, (R-NY) CHMN., HOMELAND SECURITY: It addresses an area, which really a lot has to be done on. That's the whole issue of port security, both internal port security, which this addresses, but also the issue of cargo coming into the country. TUCKER: The money from Homeland Security will go to 101 ports distributed on the basis of risk. New York gets the largest cut of the pie, as it's deemed the highest risk. Even though the port of Los Angeles handles 40 percent of the cargo coming in by seaport.
The amount announced by Chertoff is less than half of what Congress thinks should be spent. Both the House and the Senate have passed legislation addressing port security and both call for roughly $400 million a year in spending to upgrade security at the ports.
The big question now is when will congress act on getting the bill to the president's desk? Perhaps as soon as this week.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Lou, I spoke with Congressman King this morning, he tells me negotiations on the bill intensified over the weekend, and he is, in his words, cautiously optimistic that something could get done perhaps this week, that an agreement is near reconciling the two bills.
DOBBS: Well, more than five years later, I can't even say it's about time. It's well past time. Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
It's been six months, speaking of time, since Dubai Ports World promised to sell it's U.S. port operations to a U.S. firm -- within six months. More than six months later -- a Dubai Ports World has still failed to find a U.S. buyer for those port facilities, as it promised.
A Dubai Ports subsidiary recently sent a letter to Congress saying it will take at least -- at least -- another six weeks to announce a deal. We're still waiting. And of course we're still watching here.
Still ahead, democracy at risk. State officials being charged with completely mishandling preparations for our upcoming elections, using electronic voting machines. We'll have that special report.
A classified intelligence report, leaked, says the United States is less safe now than before the Iraq war. The powerful chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter will be here to discuss that issue, and others.
And Clinton's clash at FOX. Former President Clinton defends his administration's efforts to capture and kill Osama bin Laden. We'll find out who is doing the best -- or who did the worst -- who failed the least -- or who failed the most in that search for Osama bin Laden. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, many state governments across the country are finally awakening to the threat that electronic voting machines pose to our upcoming midterm elections -- and our democracy. State officials are now being charged with inadequately testing those machines and ignoring e-voting warnings. Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT (voice over): The state of Colorado certified electronic voting machines made by all of the four main manufacturers.
But a judge found the secretary of state's office had violated the law, saying there were no minimum standards. It failed to meet its statutory requirements for testing. It failed to adopt rules and failed to adequately test the machines.
In many cases, the state simply allowed the manufacturers to vouch for the safety of the machines. And in other cases, the testing was minimal. Voter activists sued over the shoddy oversight.
PAUL HULTIN, PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY: The deficiencies in the testing was an utter lack of competence, and an utter lack any scientific method, and utter lack of any recordkeeping. The judge found that it was impossible to tell what tests the secretary of state has done, because the test logs were not test logs but were just sort of the kind of notes -- that scribbles, if you will.
PILGRIM: Despite the fact that the judge said the secretary of state has done an abysmal job, the secretary of state's office issued a press release saying, "Colorado voters should not be concerned about the security of the November election."
And "I ask voters to ignore the political rhetoric by a few seeking to destroy that confidence in the election."
Activists say it's a victory. Even though the machines were not officially decertified, the court demands the machines cannot be used in the November elections until new, more stringent standards are met. Those new standards and testing guidelines will be issued by the court.
The high degree of publicity over the testing has election officials on notice. The public is watching and expects results.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the court says Colorado should look to states with tough rules, like California, to recertify their machines for November, Lou?
DOBBS: That's incredible.
PILGRIM: It is incredible.
DOBBS: No standards, no testing, relying on the manufacturers. It's just inconceivable.
PILGRIM: The activists are telling me the test logs are a joke. They're all a joke.
DOBBS: Well, secretary of state in Colorado certainly has been put on notice. Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim.
Time now to look at some of your thoughts. Many of you wrote about the need for a photo identification requirement in order to vote. The idea of, really, being required to prove you're a citizen of the United States before doing so.
From Buck in California: "All of this back and forth about mandatory driver's licenses to vote has me begging the question: Isn't it time for a national ID card? How about a tamper proof, photo, Social Security card? It would solve two problems, voter fraud, as well as fake IDs used by illegal aliens."
Wendy in Alaska: "I think the government should have the DMV have a special ID that has a big voter ID on it and it could be of no charge."
Or free.
And from Donna in Illinois, "Lou, why be so worried about illegal aliens possibly voting? With faulty electronic voting machines and no paper trail, there votes might not even be counted."
And Bob in Louisiana is fed up with our leaders in Washington, and I suspect he has more than a little company. Bob writes, "What ever happened to the concept in which politicians were elected to do the will of the people? Regardless of what the polls show, the American people want done, it seems our brilliant elected officials always find a way to do just the opposite. What part of -- 'of the people, by the people, and for the people' don't they understand?"
A large portion, I'm afraid.
E-mail us at loudobbs.com. We'll have your thoughts here later in the broadcast.
Still ahead, new evidence that the U.S. military is stretched dangerously thin by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The powerful chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, joins us here.
And former President Clinton's TV clash. Clinton says he did everything he could to capture or kill Osama bin Laden. He says he tried. We'll have that special report.
And the U.S. middle class being hit hard by a worsening debt crisis. The economic future of our nation put at risk by free trade policies and officials who want to ignore that very crisis. Stay with us for that and a great deal more as we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Federal officials have relaxed a ban on liquids that passengers can now take aboard aircraft. Starting tomorrow, airline passengers can carry travel-sized medicines and toiletries in clear plastic bags. The ban on liquids was put in place six weeks ago after British officials uncovered a plot to blow up planes crossing the Atlantic. All of that is apparently now behind us.
Gasoline prices dropping again, down 24 cents in just the past two weeks. The average price for regular is now $2.42 a gallon, nationwide, down 66 cents in just the past six weeks. But many experts say gasoline prices may once again rise. Supplies are running low, and prices at some stations in the West and Midwest are now already on the way back up.
Firefighters north of Los Angeles brought in a giant airliner to fight a huge wildfire fanned by strong Santa Ana winds this past weekend. The airliner is a DC-10. It dumps 48,000 gallons of fire retardant. Fire officials say the drop probably saved the city of Ojai. The fire has charred 134,000 acres, some 210 square miles since Labor Day, and is still not even half contained.
At least eight people are dead, two others are missing tonight after a wave of powerful storms ripped through the nation's midsection. Flooding in Kentucky left many streets and homes under water. Among those who perished, two women who drowned trying to cross a flooded road in Lexington. Officials say severe storms lashing an 800-mile area running from Ohio to Texas.
The pope is again trying to calm Muslim rage over a text he read that called Islam a violent religion. Pope Benedict meeting today with Muslim ambassadors and other Islamic leaders in his summer palace outside Rome. The pope called it an effort to rekindle friendship and dialogue between Muslims and Christians. Outraged Muslims took to the streets, in the Middle East in particular, following the pope's controversial remarks earlier this month. Earlier Vatican apology served only to worsen the protests.
President Bill Clinton is strongly defending his policies against radical Islamist terrorists when he was at the White House. In a combative interview yesterday on Fox TV, President Clinton said he got closer to killing Osama bin Laden than anyone else. Did he? Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon on how the Clinton administration handled the al Qaeda threat.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Back in August of 1998, the U.S. military insisted publicly the 62 cruise missiles it lobbed into Afghanistan were aimed at terrorist infrastructure. The inside word at the time was infrastructure was simply a euphemism for Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants.
But after the attacks of September 11th, former Clinton administration officials wanted full credit for targeting the terrorist leader.
SANDY BERGER, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I assure you they were not delivering an arrest warrant. The intent was to kill bin Laden. That's number one, this overall intent was manifest in August '98.
MCINTYRE: Bin Laden escaped, by hours, apparently, and President Clinton claims while he failed, no one has had a better shot since.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNTIED STATES: I worked hard to try to kill him. I authorized the finding for the CIA to kill him. We contracted with people to kill him.
I got closer to killing him than anybody's gotten since. And if I were still president, we'd have 120,000 troops there trying to kill him.
MCINTYRE: Clinton argues his efforts were undercut by partisan sniping, including some critics who charged the cruise missile strike was a "wag the dog" stunt to divert attention from the Monica Lewinsky scandal. The Republicans dispute that, arguing the failed attack drew bipartisan praise. And Clinton's own FBI director, Louis Freeh, charges in his 2005 book that the U.S. lacked the political spine to put its full force behind covert attempts to get bin Laden.
Former Deputy CIA Director for Intelligence John McLaughlin says from his inside perspective, it looked a lot different.
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: President Clinton did aggressively pursue Osama bin Laden. I give the Clinton administration a lot of credit for the aggressiveness with which they went after al Qaeda and bin Laden.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: President Clinton also complains that he was hampered by inadequate intelligence -- for instance, the link between al Qaeda and the militants in Somalia in 1993 wasn't clear until years afterwards. And even after the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, Clinton says that there was no consensus among law enforcement and intelligence sources that al Qaeda was behind it until after the presidential election -- something, by the way, that was backed up by the 9/11 Commission report -- Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely. All of this, whether it's partisan rancor or debate, the fact is that President Bush and President Clinton both reacting to what was a sorry state of intelligence on the part of the United States in the months leading up to September 11th, unfortunately.
Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, reporting from the Pentagon.
Well, President Clinton in that interview on the Fox News Channel with Chris Wallace, referred to Richard Clarke's book, "Against All Enemies," for the story about his administration's effort to stop al Qaeda. Clarke wrote of the president's reaction to an advised attack on Afghan camps during the Monica Lewinsky scandal.
He said: "If we thought this was the best time to hit the Afghan camps, he would order it and take the heat for 'wag the dog' criticism, as it was put, that we all knew would happen."
On the Bush administration's ability to act on what he saw as an imminent al Qaeda threat, Clarke wrote: "Secretary Rice told me that the Principals Committee, which had been the first venue for terrorism policy discussions in the Clinton administration, would not address the issue until it had "framed" by the deputies. It meant months of delay."
Coming up here next, a top secret intelligence report is leaked. The powerful chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, joins me.
And is a new fence the best way to secure our southern border? A former top ranking official in the Department of Homeland Security will be here to answer the question. Clark Kent Ervin, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A leaked portion of a highly classified intelligence report suggests this country is now less safe than before the war in Iraq. Intelligence officials tell CNN this the report shows the insurgency in Iraq has become the principle recruiting tool for radical Islamist terrorists. Joining me now is the powerful chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter. Mr. Chairman, good to have you here.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), ARMED SERVICES CHMN: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: We have portions of an NIE, a national intelligence estimate now being leaked. I have to tell you, I think the American people need to know as much as possible. But what does this suggest about what is happening in Washington?
HUNTER: Well what you're getting from the NIE is not evidence. What you're getting is an opinion. And I disagree with the opinion and I'll tell you why. When we got hit on 9/11, the last two American military operations, major operations had been to save Muslim nations. That was Kuwait and of course Bosnia.
So we went in and we saved Muslim nations. And the reward was we got struck on 9/11. So the idea that we've somehow created the enemy, that but for our aggressiveness, guys like al-Zarqawi would not be targeting the United States, that doesn't make any sense.
And secondly, the real proof of the success of our operations has been this: it's been five years since 9/11. We haven't been hit. And the reason is, we've kept the bad guys off balance. When you kill half the planning staff, it makes it tough for them to plan an attack. So the forward-leaning, aggressive posture of this president, I think is accrued to the benefit of American security.
DOBBS: All right. Congressman, if I may, I'd like to come back to those issues here in just a moment. The first is the apparent deal between the Senate and the White House on the issue of conduct -- that is torture and the Geneva Conventions. I know you satisfied -- do you believe this is the right way for the United States to go? HUNTER: Well first, we got the product, the agreement that was made between the Senate and the House on a couple of important issues. One was the treatment of classified evidence. The other, this Article II, Geneva Convention. We got that on Thursday. We worked with the Senate and the White House over the weekend, with the full Armed Services staff and we've made probably about 100 modifications, changes to the overall package, working with all parties and we have now a unified bill that the House of Representatives likes and I personally like the protection of American intelligence agents.
The new language that the White House brought in is very, very good on that. But we have this package ready to go. I think we're going to pass it on Wednesday. And I think it does a good job of providing for what I would call efficient prosecution of terrorists.
DOBBS: Efficient prosecution of terrorists. The rights protected, if terrorists have rights, the issue of how they are interrogated. Does that satisfy the Pentagon? Is the military leadership satisfied with the adherence to the Geneva Conventions and the protection for our own forces?
HUNTER: Yes, they are. And I've talked to the military. I've also talked to Mike Hayden, head of the CIA with respect to his agents and how this will -- and whether or not they'll be protected when they have to come up with the evidence to convict some of these people. Their identities are going to be protected. That's very important.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Congressman, I've got to turn real quickly to General Schoomaker. The army chief of staff basically saying, he's drawing a line in the sand. Secretary Rumsfeld is downplaying. But General Schoomaker is saying point blank, he's had a belly full of a civilian leadership that's ignoring worn out equipment, inadequate resources for his men and women and a lack of sustained funding to carry out a mission that is, again, put our army at least at the breaking point whether we're talking about the National Guard, the reserves or regular army.
HUNTER: Perfect timing, Lou. John Warner and I have the Senate and the House conference report ready to go. And let me tell you what we did. We added $20 billion to this budget, to this defense budget. And we have provided for paying for every nut, every bolt, every humvee, every helicopter, every piece of equipment that the army has pointed out as needing to be repaired for what they call reset. That means getting that old fire engine back and the firehouse ready to go again.
Plus we've addressed the $11.7 billion shortage that the U.S. marine corps says they will generate with this war in Iraq and Afghanistan. We've come up with every penny for everything that General Schoomaker has given to the Armed Services Committee and we've done that with the agreement of the senior leadership of the Pentagon. So we're ready to go with this bill. We may file this thing in a day or two.
DOBBS: And General Schoomaker is absolutely on board with you and your counterpart in the Senate, Senator John Warner? HUNTER: I'm sure -- we took every dime that General Schoomaker gave us, every dime of his request, we funded it.
DOBBS: All right. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, good to have you here.
HUNTER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Joining me now for a different perspective on the rising stress on our military from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and our global war against radical Islamist terrorism is General David Grange. General, good to have you here. You just heard what Chairman Hunter said. How do you feel?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well I think, first of all, the war on terrorism -- I think it's being affected by Iraq right now because of the problems in Iraq and because of some mistakes early on in the war. However, this enemy would fight us anyway and you can't wish that enemy away. Whether it be Iraq or not, they would still come after us.
DOBBS: All right on that issue. Now Duncan Hunter has just said that he and John Warner have funded an additional $20 plus billion to meet the General Schofield's demands and said that doing so in concert with General Schoomaker to put this to rest. Do you think this will satisfy all the concerns?
GRANGE: Well, I sure hope so because it's the moral responsibility of Congress and the president and the Department of Defense to do so. If you're going to put troops in harm's way, they have to be resourced to perform their mission. And right now, they're not being resourced to that level. Now, I hope what's not going to happen is money's not going to come from somewhere else in the army to pay for this readiness shortfall. I hope it's new money to take care of the requirements...
DOBBS: General Grange, are you suggesting that there might be some political gainsmanship in Washington, D.C.? I can't imagine such a thing.
GRANGE: There's always to pay Paul in this kind of movement of monies around, so let's do it the right way and make sure the troops have what they need.
DOBBS: It's incredible to me that we -- you and I have talked about these issues, poorly equipped, poorly supported, troops in the field, whether it be armor for Humvees or whether it be body armor for our troops.
The idea that we are even discussing this five years into this conflict, this global war on terror, three and a half years in Iraq, just about five years in Afghanistan.
What in the world is wrong? First with the civilian leadership, but also the general staff that they would put up with this kind of treatment, this kind of bone-crushing responsibility without adequate support?
GRANGE: First of all, you come up with your strategy, you decide on the requirements needed to do that strategy and then you resource it and if you can't resource it, then you change the strategy. And that's what's being faced right now.
DOBBS: General Dave avid Grange, thank you for being here.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou. A major intelligence report says the war in Iraq has worsened the threat of terrorism against the United States. Bush administration officials say that distorts reality. We're taking a closer look at some of the hard facts.
Plus an angry Bill Clinton: the former president losing his cool when asked about his efforts to find Osama bin Laden. Also, pull out your shampoo. The feds relax the rules about what you can and can't carry on board. It's all in the details.
And Oprah Winfrey, on the campaign to draft her for the White House. We'll find out who she really wants to be president of the United States. Her interview with Larry King, that's coming up right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Lou.
DOBBS: I wonder what happened to get shampoo permitted back on an aircraft, Wolf. We'll find out, I'm sure, in the next hour. Thank you.
A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. The question: Do you believe that the Congress and Senate should hold floor debates on the conduct of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you believe the American people deserve such a debate and understanding? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. The results coming up here in just a few minutes.
Next, we'll have some of your thoughts on the issue of border security, and a highly regarded former Department of Homeland Security inspector-general will join me. We'll be discussing border security, port security, and the global war on terror. Clark Kent Ervin joins me next. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Our national security analyst Clark Kent Ervin joins me tonight from Washington, former inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security, author of the book "Open Target: Where America is Vulnerable to Attack."
And Clark, good to have you here.
CLARK KENT ERVIN, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's start out with the idea that we're not as safe as we were because of the war in Iraq.
ERVIN: Well, there is no question, Lou, but that is true. Everybody's who's reasonable and honest has known that to be true for a long time. I think it's good to see the intelligence community saying that. And we need to learn from that, needless to say, with regard to future adventures.
DOBBS: Well, you know, that's helpful, but I'm not sure what we do with that. If in point of fact the war in Iraq, the way we've conducted it for three and a half years has created more radical Islamist terrorism and the potential for terrorist attacks in this country, what does that suggest for our policy in Iraq?
ERVIN: Well, it doesn't suggest, I think, that we withdraw from Iraq. Unfortunately, we're in a real morass now, and I think the last thing that we do is to withdraw precipitously.
What I think it does call for, though, is rethinking our deployment and coming up with a plan to eventually withdraw in a way that allows the Iraqis to take more responsibility for their own security.
Ultimately, this is going to be a political fight, not a military one. I think we've seen the limits of our military power.
DOBBS: We've seen the limits. We've also not seen victory secured nor an articulated national strategy. I think personally, a very real failure on the part of the general staff to serve their brave young men and women under them well.
Let me turn to the issue of lifting this thing on liquids on aircraft. I happen to be among those who is not particularly impressed with the Transportation Security Administration. Why is it a crisis? Six weeks ago, all liquids have to be off the aircraft. Six weeks later, it's no problem, throw the shampoo and whatever you got in a clear bag and we're good?
ERVIN: That's exactly right, Lou. It's really inexplicable. I think the only explanation that you can come up with is that TSA has, again, responded to consumer complaints and the complaints from industry.
Either liquids can be combined to make explosives, or they can't be. And if they can be, it doesn't make any sense to say that you can buy them past the checkpoint and bring them on the airplanes but you can't buy them before you get to the checkpoint.
DOBBS: Well, I'm glad to hear you say it, because it doesn't make a lick of sense to me. So I feel better.
Let me turn to the issue of the virtual fence. A virtual fence, big towers out in the desert, $2.5 billion. What in -- three years to get it done. I mean, what in the world are we doing here? ERVIN: Well, we're reinventing the wheel, Lou. You know, Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. This secure border initiative that you're talking about is the third attempt to come up with a mix of technologies and increased Border Patrol agents to secure the border. That's the right approach. The problem is, it's never been effectively implemented. And I'm skeptical it's going to be effectively implemented this time around.
DOBBS: Clark Kent Ervin, as always, good to have you here.
ERVIN: Thanks so much, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead, we'll have more of your thoughts and the results of our poll tonight. Please stay with us.
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DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 90 percent of you say Congress and the Senate should hold public floor debates on the conduct of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Let's take a look at some more of your thoughts.
From Marty in New Mexico: "As I was watching football this weekend, I heard the analysts bragging that the Superdome in New Orleans had been rebuilt in just one year at a cost of $150 million. All I could think is that we have our priorities in this country screwed up. It seems to be so important that a sports team has its stadium back when thousands of regular American citizens don't have their homes back yet. God help us."
On the proposed virtual fence at our borders, from Art in Illinois: "A virtual fence will let virtually anyone into our country."
From Tom in Texas: "Here's my version of comprehensive immigration reform: Vote against all politicians that are for it. Pretty comprehensive."
And from Jim in New York: "Lou, who the heck do I vote for? Almost every time I listen to Democrats or Republicans speak about illegal immigration, the only thought that comes to mind is dumb and dumber."
Can't say you're wrong.
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts to loudobbs.com. Each of you whose email is read here receives a copy of Senator Byron Dorgan's new book, "Take This Job and Ship It."
We thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer begins now -- Wolf.
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