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President Bush Meets With Afghan President Hamid Karzai; Future of al Qaeda; Clinton's Comments
Aired September 26, 2006 - 10:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Spend a second hour in the NEWSROOM this morning and stay informed.
I'm Heidi Collins.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.
Thank you for being with us.
You'll hear from presidents Bush and Karzai this hour, the war in Afghanistan and the re-surging Taliban.
COLLINS: We talk to a man who followed the trail of Osama bin Laden. Where is he now? Is he even still alive?
HARRIS: And the buzz on Bill Clinton. A smirk? A smack-down? Jeanne Moos sums it up for Tuesday, the 26th day of September.
You're in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: Trying to reach common ground. In the Oval Office right now, President Bush meeting with a key ally in the war on terror. Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai is in Washington for critical talks today and tomorrow. The primary topic, terrorism.
Violence has surged in Afghanistan in recent months. It erupted again today. We will hear from the two leaders coming up this hour.
You can see that news conference live right here in the NEWSROOM scheduled now for 11:40 Eastern Time.
Want to go ahead and get straight to the White House. Our correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is standing by with the very latest.
What's at stake here for both of the world leaders, Suzanne?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Heidi, certainly everything is at stake here for both of the world leaders. I mean, President Karzai comes here as a weak leader, one who is losing popular support at home.
He is seeing and increase in violence and drug trafficking and this resurgence of the Taliban in his own country. Really a lot of problems that he has to deal with. President Bush, on the other hand, has always pointed to Afghanistan, pointed to Karzai as a success story, really a case of democracy that is flourishing, that is working five years after the United States and international forces essentially routed out the Taliban and took over, essentially looking for Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, this kind of thing. The president desperately needs this kind of success to work in his favor for his legacy, for his presidency. Karzai, as well, losing quite a bit of power.
So what are they looking for from each other? Karzai is going to be looking for potentially more aid from the United States. He is also going to be looking for a very direct message to neighboring Pakistan which he believes has been harboring the Taliban, allowing them to cross the border into Afghanistan to conduct these dally raids.
Now, President Bush is going turn to Karzai, of course, and really confront him on this big drug issue. The opium trade there accounts for 92 percent, if you can believe that, Heidi, 92 percent of the world's supply. The opium coming from Afghanistan.
That is a big, big problem. One of the reasons why is the profit goes to the Taliban to fund that kind of insurgent activity that we're talking about.
So those are going to be some of the more serious issues that these two are going to discuss. And, of course, at the same time, they're going to try to bolster each other here, say we see this situation eye to eye, we bolster, we see that we're both dealing with our own problems, but we're looking to move in the right direction -- Heidi.
COLLINS: And some would argue the right direction would be just before tomorrow's trilateral meeting bringing in Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf on these similar discussions. A lot of finger- pointing going on between Afghanistan's leadership and Pakistan's leadership about the Taliban and about why it has come back into -- not power, but, of course, all of this resurgence of violence.
MALVEAUX: Well, of course, we just saw Musharraf here at the White House. This was just last week and he, of course, is being blamed essentially by Karzai, who says, look, you're allowing the Taliban, essentially giving them safe haven in your own country to cross the border into Afghanistan to conduct these raids to continue this violence. And at the same time, Afghanistan is looking that the as a very big problem.
Musharraf last week said, look, I set up this deal with elders along the border here to make sure that they wouldn't be crossing over. But there is a lot of mistrust between those two leaders and President Bush, the White House, really trying to bring them together because they ultimately believe if these two leaders do not make it work, the president's freedom agenda and all that he talks about democracy in the region really isn't going to be worth very much.
COLLINS: We will be watching it very closely. Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.
Thank you.
It's coming up, that news conference with President Bush and President Karzai from Afghanistan, 11:40 today.
HARRIS: The Afghan leader in America. Big issues on the agenda, from the Taliban, to terror mastermind Osama bin Laden.
Joining us now to talk about what's at stake and what's at issue here, former FBI Special Agent Dan Coleman. He's now a senior consultant with Harbinger Technologies Group, which specializes in homeland security.
Dan, good to see you. Thanks for your time.
DAN COLEMAN, FMR. FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Good morning.
HARRIS: Hey, Dan, President Musharraf in his book says he thinks bin Laden is in east Afghanistan. Karzai says he's probably in Pakistan.
What do -- what do you make of the back and forth here, and what's your guess?
COLEMAN: That's a bit of cross-blaming. The borders in that region are rather undefined, and I kind of defy either one of them to say exactly where he is at any one point in time.
HARRIS: So undefined because neither leader has control of those border areas at all?
COLEMAN: Afghanistan is basically still an anarchy. And Pakistan, the part of Pakistan in which bin Laden may or may not be located, is northwest of (INAUDIBLE) provinces which are basically reservations, tribal reservations. And the central government does not have a lot of control there.
HARRIS: Dan, did I just hear you say that Afghanistan is basically an anarchy?
COLEMAN: Yes. I believe it is.
HARRIS: We're not going hear that from either of these leaders today?
COLEMAN: No.
HARRIS: What do you base that on?
COLEMAN: President Karzai is probably in control of Kabul and some of the major cities. It's a very difficult country to govern, and he has to rely on a lot of cooperation by the local tribal elders. And he doesn't have someone like Ahmed Shah Masoud, who was killed by bin Laden, to help him. HARRIS: What do you make of the deal between Pakistan and some of the tribal leaders in that sort of rugged, undefined area that you describe?
COLEMAN: Well, bin Laden has been on the loose for five years now. If they wanted the $25 million for him they would have turned him in already. So I suspect that's more internal politics in Pakistan.
HARRIS: So bin Laden is being sheltered?
COLEMAN: I believe so, yes.
HARRIS: By these tribal leaders?
COLEMAN: I believe so.
HARRIS: So, what, then, becomes the strategy, in your mind?
COLEMAN: Well, the Pakistani army, whenever it approaches those areas uninvited, takes significant casualties. And President Musharraf has suffered several assassination attempts. So I would believe that in order to preserve his own life he has to make certain conditions...
HARRIS: Got you.
Hey, Dan, let me ask you something. Just a couple of other issues I want to hit before we lose you here.
If you were advising President Bush right now as to the best approach to working with Pakistan, what would you say?
COLEMAN: I would say that if he's unwilling to put Pakistani troops up into that area to get him, that we would have to put our own troops on the ground. The only way he's going to be gotten is actual soldiers on the ground walking to wherever he is.
HARRIS: I see.
COLEMAN: Modern warfare isn't going to work up there.
HARRIS: I see.
And if you were advising the president on improving the relationship, the working relationship, because the two men seem to like one another, the working relationship with Afghanistan, what would you say to the president, particularly in a country that you just described a moment ago as an anarchy?
COLEMAN: Well, I would try to help him stabilize his government and get control outside of the main cities.
HARRIS: Well, he's going to come back and he'll say, "I need more money." COLEMAN: Well, I think money is always an issue, but Afghanistan has been -- Afghanistan and Afghanis have been in contact -- conflict with each other for hundreds of years, and I'm not sure that that's something that can be fixed in five minutes.
HARRIS: Given your knowledge of how intel flows, what did you make of the French reporting over the weekend that Osama bin Laden is either dead or is seriously ill?
COLEMAN: Well-off people with access with medicine and doctors don't die from typhoid.
HARRIS: Because you just need simple antibiotics.
COLEMAN: Well, you need antibiotics and you need Ringer's solution. If you've got somebody there that can put an I.V. in your arm and get you the proper medicine, you'll survive. American soldiers in the field can catch typhoid just as easily as he can, but they don't die from it. If they're treated they survive.
HARRIS: Got you.
Weigh in, if you would, please, on this flack with President Clinton, kind of the back and forth that's been going on since the weekend interview. What do you give -- because you were working this -- what do you give President Clinton credit for in the hunt for Osama bin Laden and his attempts to disrupt al Qaeda?
That's a deep sigh.
COLEMAN: President Clinton is very careful in his comments. I was -- I was at least happy to see him get angry about something and at least try to fight back.
I doubt that anything he said was incorrect because he's too careful a man. But as far as I know, he may -- he approved the assassination of bin Laden, but he never approved a particular plan.
HARRIS: Well, hang on a second. He said that -- his claim is that he couldn't get the CIA and the FBI to agree on responsibility, for example, for the Cole attack and to launch countermeasures.
COLEMAN: I disagree with that.
HARRIS: You do?
COLEMAN: Yes, I do.
HARRIS: He said he had a battle plan drawn up to go into Afghanistan, overthrow the Taliban, and launch a full-scale search for bin Laden.
COLEMAN: Well, he didn't do it.
HARRIS: Did you see evidence of a plan?
COLEMAN: Not -- not at my level. No, sir.
HARRIS: So what do you make of his claim?
COLEMAN: I make of his claim that...
HARRIS: You just said he's a careful man.
COLEMAN: ... he was saying that he made a very specific statement about getting a forward operating base in one of the former Soviet republics which he was not able to get. In my mind, that's the purpose of the Marine flotillas, it's the purpose of the airborne, it's the purpose of Special Forces. You don't need a forward base in one of the former Soviet republics to go in and do a quick operation.
HARRIS: Got you.
Dan Coleman, thanks for your time.
COLEMAN: You're welcome.
HARRIS: You opened up some things here.
All right, Dan. Thanks for your time.
COLEMAN: You're welcome.
And just a reminder that -- watch "THE SITUATION ROOM" later today, first at 4:00 p.m. Eastern, and at 7:00 p.m., in prime time, Wolf Blitzer will interview the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf.
COLLINS: A lot of speculation in recent days about Osama bin Laden, dead or alive. While there are conflicting reports most agree on this: the end of bin Laden does not necessarily mean the end of al Qaeda.
CNN Senior International Nic Robertson tack takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): To understand what al Qaeda must be like after Osama bin Laden, you must listen to Mohsen al-Awajy. He was a Saudi extremist who spent time in jail. Now, he is a lawyer, trying to convince al Qaeda's fugitives to give themselves up.
MOHSEN AL-AWAJY, SAUDI LAWYER: I suggested to some of them during a dialogue that what will happen if Osama bin Laden is captured or killed? They lost, I would say you know, concentration, but please don't say this, because for them, it would be the end.
ROBERTSON: Osama bin Laden, always larger than life, creating his own cult of personality, demanding from his followers by act or personal allegiance, not to al Qaeda or his deputies, but to him.
For example, the now dead Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was more than a year into his bloody Iraqi killing spree before he gave bin Laden his oath of loyalty. Only then did bin Laden anoint him as his man in Iraq.
NAWAF OBAID, SAUDI SECURITY CONSULTANT: We do see that him and three or four of the people around him still really hold the main reigns of the big attacks, of the big planning.
ROBERTSON: But Obaid believes bin Laden's ideology may be larger than the man.
OBAID: This will not end al Qaeda. This will continue certain groups which are attached, claim to be al Qaeda. They will continue to operate independently as they do today. ROBERTSON: Groups like the Madrid train bombers in 2004 who killed more than 180 people, and the London bus and underground train bombers who killed 52 people in July 2005.
Jamal Khalifa married bin Laden sister, fought alongside him against the Soviets in Afghanistan, quit when bin Laden formed al Qaeda.
JAMAL KHALIFA, BIN LADEN'S BROTHER-IN-LAW: The problem here, it is an ideology. So if any person in the war on terror think that this war against group or network is 100-person strong.
ROBERTSON: Wrong, because it won't be bin Laden's lieutenant, but an increasingly radicalized ideology that will drive al Qaeda if bin Laden dies.
KHALID BATARFI, BIN LADEN'S CHILDHOOD FRIEND: It will be a disaster, it will be something that might motivate radicalism. And with the fate, his followers or even possible followers will become followers. (INAUDIBLE) and he would become a saint.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Whatever the analysis of a post-bin Laden era now, it is impossible to know the final chapter until it is clear how he died and how his followers viewed it.
Nic Robertson, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: And look for more of Nic Robertson's reports weeknights on "ANDERSON COOPER 360," 10:00 Eastern, only on CNN.
Clogging in Kentucky and homeland security dollars. The link? A powerful figure on Capitol Hill.
The story in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: And more fabulous music like that as well. It's the talk of the town and the airwaves. Word from the street about that fiery interview in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS: And trying to reach common ground in the Oval Office. President Bush meeting now with a key ally in the war on terror. Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai is in Washington for critical talks -- we can say that -- critical talks today and tomorrow. The primary topic, terrorism.
We will hear from the two leaders this hour, and you can see that news conference, of course, live here in the NEWSROOM. It's scheduled for 11:40 Eastern Time this morning.
COLLINS: Unmasking terror. The Republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee wants a leaked intelligence report put out there for all Americans to see.
We are told the assessment finds the Iraq war has worsened the terror threat to the U.S. The director of national intelligence takes issue with that. John Negroponte says the leaked portion of the document does not tell the whole story. He's considering the request to declassify the report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN NEGROPONTE, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: It talks about the jihadist movement having spread. I -- my personal assessment with respect to the United States is that we are certainly more vigilant. We're better prepared. And in that sense, I think we could safely say that we are safer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Not so fast, Mr. President. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice challenging President Bush's predecessor. As you may have seen in a weekend interview, Bill Clinton fired angry accusation against the Bush White House. He says the administration didn't actively pursue al Qaeda until after the 9/11 attacks, and that he even left the Bush team a comprehensive strategy on terrorism.
Rice adamantly rejected that in an interview with "The New York Post." Rice counters, "But what we did in the eight months was at least as aggressive as what the Clinton administration did in the preceding years. We were not left a comprehensive strategy to fight al Qaeda."
One board member asked, "So you're saying Bill Clinton is a liar?" Rice's response, "No, I'm just saying that, look, there was a lot of passion in that interview, and I am not going to -- I would just suggest that you go back and read the 9/11 Commission report on the efforts of the Bush administration in the eight months."
COLLINS: Political blogs buzzing today about President Clinton's finger-jabbing interview with FOX News.
Here now, CNN's Jeanne Moos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Technically, Bill Clinton's page never actually got purple, but he did seem to boil.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Took off the gloves.
DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: The kind of smack down with FOX News.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He looked like he was going to kick some (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
MOOS: At least they never had to bleep the former president.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You did FOX's bidding on this show. You did your nice little conservative hit job on me.
MOOS: But it was Bill Clinton doing the hitting, or at least the jabbing at FOX's Chris Wallace.
CLINTON: I want to know how many people of the Bush administration you asked this question of.
MOOS: it was the talk of the tube from YouTube to Imus.
DON IMUS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Could have been in a barn.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Wallace should have smacked him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Chris had any (EXPLETIVE DELETED), he would have said just keep your hands to yourself there powder puff.
MOOS: And it was all because Chris Wallace questioned whether Bill Clinton had done enough to get Osama bin Laden.
CLINTON: No. Because I didn't get him.
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Right.
CLINTON: But I tried. That's the difference in me and some.
MOOS (on camera): Did you think he was acting or really mad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh no, I think he was mad and I think he was justified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bill Clinton, of course he's acting. They're all actors.
MOOS (voice-over): It didn't take long for comedians to act.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FOX is saying my response was calculated. Well, who do you think you're dealing with Holmes? I'm the pope of charisma. I've got 70 I.Q. points on Chris Wallace.
MOOS: And then there was the smirk factor.
CLINTON: And you've got that little smirk on your face, you think you're so clever.
MOOS: Chris Wallace's own colleagues on FOX kidded him about the smirk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just don't smirk. Stop your smirking, buddy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well Wallace, you're unflappable. Good job.
MOOS: And Wallace himself noted, "the president said I had a smirk. Actually, it was sheer wonder at what I was witnessing."
In addition to finger jabbing, there was finger wagging.
CLINTON: They ridicule me for trying.
MOOS (on camera): I want to take you back to the last time Bill Clinton famously wagged his finger. Remember that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: no.
CLINTON: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, right, right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which is not all he was wagging.
MOOS (voice-over): And as if all that wagging wasn't enough, writer Nora Ephron blogged on the "Huffington Post." "What surprised me most about the Clinton meltdown was that no one told him to pull up his socks."
She's right. Look at all that exposed skin for an interviewer to get under.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: You've got to love Jeanne Moos.
HARRIS: Wow. A little alabaster skin there, huh? That's not a good look.
Sorry. Sorry, Heidi.
COLLINS: You could see more of Jeanne Moos' unique perspective weekdays -- you threw me off.
HARRIS: Sorry.
COLLINS: In "THE SITUATION ROOM." That's coming up today, and Monday through Friday, always, 4:00 p.m. Eastern, again at prime time, 7:00 Eastern.
HARRIS: Clogging in Kentucky. That's a segue for you, huh? And homeland security dollars. The link? Well, a powerful figure on Capitol Hill.
That story in the NEWSROOM.
You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
COLLINS: And we are watching this. Twenty minutes from now or so, 11:40 Eastern, war on terror news conference. It will be hosted by President Bush and President Karzai -- Afghan president, that is, talking about the latest resurgence, if you will, of the Taliban. A lot of activity. Insurgents hitting the southern Afghanistan-Pakistan border.
They will talk about that when it happens.
Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Can't wait to get our hands on the tape of this press availability this morning. President Bush meeting right now with Afghanistan's president, Hamid Karzai, in Washington for talks today and tomorrow. Of course, the primary topic, terrorism.
Both men will be talking, oh, about 10:40 a.m. We will be able to bring that press conference to you live in -- did I say 10:00 -- 11:40 a.m.
COLLINS: It's 11:00.
HARRIS: 11:40 a.m., just a couple of minutes from now in the NEWSROOM. We'll have that for you.
COLLINS: He's been called the prince of pork. This congressman says he's just trying to help home folk. The critics are questioning his ways and means.
CNN's Joe Johns with the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What you are looking at is clogging. That is right, clogging, old-time Appalachian dancing. In fact, it is the Kentucky state clogging championship.
We went to Kentucky to find out how precisely it is tied into homeland security; and frankly, the answer surprised us.
It is because of this powerful Congressman and your tax dollars. The driving force behind this sprawling multipurpose center in Somerset, Kentucky, where the cloggers danced, is also a major force when it comes to deciding how your homeland security dollars are spent.
As a subcommittee chairman, Hal Rogers has a big say on domestic security spending. He's often vilified as an old-school politician who uses his influence to funnel vast sums and jobs to his home district. A local newspaper once called him the prince of pork. What do you think of that?
REP. HAL ROGERS (R), KENTUCKY: Well, I think it is a bunch of bull.
JOHNS: Rogers doesn't deny he brings home the bacon. In fact, he fiercely defends the practice of earmarking federal funds for specific projects. He does see it as a way to help people in one of the nation's poorest districts, his own.
ROGERS: There are big slices of the country, like this, that are poor and without and having to fend for themselves, facing a transition from a coal industry to something else to try to make a living. Having the federal government look at your area and say, yes, that is a good idea.
JOHNS: Like the multipurpose building, official name, the Center for Rural Development. Critics call it the Taj Mahal. But to Rogers, it is a crowning achievement.
ROGERS: That this center has helped our whole region redevelop.
JOHNS: Among the new sparks to the economy here, is a concentration of high-tech security firms specializing in biometrics.
(on camera): Congressman Rogers and others have taken to calling this part of Kentucky, silicon holler. The hope is that high tech firms will take root here and grow. But the use of federal dollars to help do that is creating controversy.
(voice-over): For example, critics have charged that Rogers has effectively lured businesses here using his power over homeland security spending, starting when Rogers demanded the federal government give his district the work of producing new biometric identification cards for transportation workers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think to refuse funding of any homeland security program based on where the various components of that infrastructure are manufactured puts us all at risk.
JOHNS: Rogers denies pressuring businesses to move to the district and says he was trying to jump start the transportation ID project.
ROGERS: I think they have been dragging their feet in certain areas. And so I've pushed and shoved them to get things done.
JOHNS: Rogers' message to government, get it done or he will. And if it helps improve the lives of people in southeastern Kentucky in the process, so much the better.
Joe Johns, CNN, Corbin, Kentucky.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Catch more of Joe Johns' reports on "ANDERSON COOPER 360." "AC 360" airs weeknights at 10:00 Eastern. And you will see it only on CNN.
HARRIS: And once again, President Bush sitting down with a key ally in the war on terror, Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai in Washington as fresh violence in his country is making news today. The primary topic, of course, terrorism. You can see their news conference live here in the NEWSROOM. It's scheduled for 10:40 a.m. Eastern time.
COLLINS: 11:40, Central, 10:40. Exactly.
HARRIS: Thank you, Heidi. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Trying to reach common ground in the Oval Office. President Bush meeting now with a key ally in the war on terror, Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai in Washington for talks today and again tomorrow.
The top topic, of course, terrorism. We will hear from the two leaders this hour, if it goes as scheduled, 11:40 a.m. Eastern time right here in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: Well done.
Today's meeting in the Oval Office sets the stage for an even more critical gathering tomorrow of those three gentlemen. Presidents Bush and Karzai will be joined by Pakistan's leader. Washington also considers President Pervez Musharraf a major ally in the war on terror.
The Pakistani president may hear a laundry list of contentious issues from his Afghan neighbor. One big dispute concerns Pakistan's religious schools called madrasahs (ph). And Afghanistan's president says they teach hate. Pakistan's president says the extremist centers make up only 5 percent of his country's schools, though. He can see he is moving slowly against them.
HARRIS: And President Pervez Musharraf in "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer this afternoon at 4:00 p.m. Eastern time.
And we are just weeks away from the midterm elections. What happens in Afghanistan and Iraq could have a big impact here in the United States. Here's CNN's senior political analyst Bill Schneider.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Terrorism and Iraq. Those remain the top two issues to voters this year, but their political impact is very different. President Bush and the Republicans are trying to keep the focus on terrorism.
SEN. BILL FRIST, (R) MARYLAND: The war on terror is a war that we've fought in Afghanistan, that we're fighting in Iraq, which right now is the major front.
SCHNEIDER: Among the nearly half of likely voters who say terrorism is an extremely important issue, the race for Congress is close. Now an intelligence estimate is reported to have found that the war in Iraq is making the terror threat worse.
That finding should come as no surprise to the public. When asked last month whether the war in Iraq has made the United States safer from terrorism, most Americans said no. The leaked intelligence report brings the Iraq issue back into that debate.
REP. JANE HARMAN, (D) CALIFORNIA: Intelligence analysts whom I talked to everywhere say the war in Iraq and the deteriorating situation on the ground there is making us less safe. It's a staging ground for terror.
SCHNEIDER: Among the nearly half of likely voters who say Iraq is an extremely important issue, Democrats have a wide lead, better than two to one. Among all likely voters across the country, Democrats have a 13 point lead which appears to be driven mostly by disillusionment over Iraq.
Former president Bill Clinton is trying to rally voters behind Democrats on the terrorism issue.
BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We too care about the security of the country, but we want to implement the 9/11 Commission recommendations, which they haven't for four years. We want to intensify efforts in Afghanistan against bin Laden.
SCHNEIDER: Is Mr. Clinton a good spokesman for his party? Sixty percent of Americans express a favorable opinion of the former president, higher than almost any other public figure, including Clinton's vice president, and his wife, and John McCain, and Condoleezza Rice and notably higher than President Bush.
Only one public figure is more favorably regarded than Bill Clinton, First Lady Laura Bush.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: This weekend CNN has Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, why he doesn't think the war is a mistake. An exclusive interview, candid comments, Rumsfeld, man of war, CNN Saturday and Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.
HARRIS: And Heidi, we are moments away from this joint news conference with President Bush and President Karzai. Let's bring White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux in.
And Suzanne, give us a sense of some of the key topics that we expect to have these two men address in this news conference this morning. MALVEAUX: Afghan President Hamid Karzai expecting to get a boost from President Bush. Karzai really has been losing quite a bit of popular support in his own country. He's been faced with increased violence, corruption, drug trafficking, as well as resurgence in the Taliban. A lot of problems for him to deal with, so he'll be looking to President Bush for more aid and more support, international support as well.
President Bush, of course, as always views Afghanistan as the model for democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The President of the United States and the President of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you. Please be seated.
It's my honor to welcome President Karzai back to the White House.
Mr. President, Laura and I fondly remember your gracious hospitality when we met you in your capital. We had a chance today to reconfirm our strong commitment to work together for peace and freedom, and I'm proud of your leadership.
You got a tough job.
HAMID KARZAI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: Sometimes it is.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: And you're showing a lot of strength and character. And we're proud to call you ally and friend.
KARZAI: Thank you.
BUSH: I really am.
We discussed how the government is building institutions necessary for Afghans to have a secure future. We talked about how America and our international partners can continue to help.
Our allies are working on initiatives to help the Afghan people in building a free Afghanistan. And we discussed those initiatives. We discussed whether or not they could be effective. And we discussed how to make them effective.
We discussed our cooperation in defeating those who kill innocent life to achieve objectives -- political objectives.
The Afghan people know firsthand the nature of the enemy that we face in the war on terror.
After all, it was just yesterday, Taliban gunmen assassinated Safia Ama Jan -- a cold-blooded kill. In other words, she got killed in cold blood. She was a leader who wanted to give young girls an education in Afghanistan. She was a person who served her government. She was a person who cared deeply about the future of the country.
And, Mr. President, Laura and I and the American people join you in mourning her loss.
And her loss shows the nature of this enemy we face. They have no conscience. Their objective is to create fear and create enough violence so we withdraw and let them have their way.
And that's unacceptable. It's unacceptable behavior for the free world and the civilized world to accept, Mr. President.
I know that Taliban and al Qaeda remnants and others are trying to bring down your government, because they know that as the democratic institutions take root in your country, that terrorists will not be able to control your country or be able to use it to launch attacks on other nations. They see the threat of democratic progress.
In recent months, the Taliban and other extremists have tried to regain control, mostly in the south of Afghanistan. And so we've adjusted tactics and run the offense to meet the threat and to defeat the thereat.
Forces from dozens of nations, including every member of NATO, are supporting the democratic government of Afghanistan. The American people are providing money to help send our troops to your country, Mr. President, and so are a lot of other nations around the world. This is a multinational effort to help you succeed.
Your people have rejected extremism. Afghan forces are fighting bravely for the future of Afghanistan, and many of your forces have given their lives. And we send our deepest condolences to their families and their friends and their neighbors.
The fighting in Afghanistan is part of a global struggle. Recently, British forces killed a long-time terrorist affiliated with al Qaeda named Omar Farouk. Farouk was active in Bosnia and Southeast Asia. He was captured in Indonesia. He escaped from prison in Afghanistan. He was killed hiding in Iraq.
Every victory in the war on terror enhances the security of free peoples everywhere.
Mr. President, as I told you in the Oval Office, our country will stand with the free people of Afghanistan.
I know there are some in your country who wonder whether or not America has got the will to do the hard work necessary to help you succeed. We have got that will.
KARZAI: Wonderful.
BUSH: And we're proud of you as a partner. KARZAI: Great.
BUSH: We discussed our efforts to help the government deliver a better life.
President Karzai said this about his aspirations: He said he wants to make Afghanistan a great success and an enduring example of a prosperous and democratic society.
We're helping you build effective and accountable government agencies. We discussed different agencies in your government and how best to make them accountable to the people.
We're going to help you build roads. We understand that it's important for people to have access to markets.
I thought our general had a pretty interesting statement. He said, "Where the road ends, the Taliban tries to begin."
And the president understands that.
We're helping you with the national literacy program.
KARZAI: Yes.
BUSH: We understand that a free society is one that counts upon an educated citizenry. The more educated a populace is, the more likely it is they'll be active participants in democratic forms of government.
We're helping you build schools and medical centers.
We talked about the illegal drug trade. The president gave me a very direct assessment of successes in eradicating poppies and failures in eradicating poppies. It was a realistic assessment of the conditions on the ground.
And he talked about his strategy, particularly in dealing in Helmand province. And, Mr. President, we'll support you on this strategy. We understand what you understand, and that is we've got to eradicate drug trade for the good of the people of Afghanistan.
KARZAI: Thank you, sir.
BUSH: Tomorrow, President Karzai and President Musharraf and I will have dinner. I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be an interesting discussion amongst three allies, three people who are concerned about the future of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
It'll be a chance for us to work on how to secure the border, how we can continue to work together and share information so we can defeat extremists, how we can work together to build a future of peace and democracy in your region, Mr. President.
I thank you for coming today. I'm looking forward to our discussion tomorrow evening. Welcome back to the White House. The podium's yours.
KARZAI: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
It's a great honor to be in your very beautiful country once again, especially during fall, with all the lovely leaves around.
And thank you very much for the great hospitality that you and the first lady are always giving to a guest, especially to me.
And thanks also for your visit to Afghanistan and for seeing us in our country, and for seeing from close as to who we are and how we make it to a better future.
I'm very grateful, Mr. President, to you and the American people for all that you have done for Afghanistan for the last four and a half years, from roads to education to democracy to parliament to good governance effort to health and to all other good things that are happening in Afghanistan.
Mr. President, I was the day before yesterday in the Walter Reed hospital. There I met wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan. And there also I met a woman surgeon with six boys, from 7 to 21, that she had left behind in America in order to build us a road in the mountainous part of the country in Afghanistan.
There's nothing more that any nation can do for another country -- to send a woman with children to Afghanistan to help. We are very grateful. I'm glad I came to know that story. And I'll be repeating it to the Afghan people once I go back to Afghanistan.
We discussed today all matters that concern the two countries: the question of the reconstruction of Afghanistan, improvement for the reconstruction of Afghanistan, the equipping of the Afghan army, the training of the Afghan army, the police in Afghanistan, in all other aspects of reconstruction.
We also discussed the region around us; discussed our relations with Pakistan and the question of the joint fight that we have together against terrorism.
And I'm glad that, Mr. President, that you are, tomorrow, hosting a dinner for me and President Musharraf. And I'm sure we will come out of that meeting with a lot more to talk about to our nations in a very positive way for a better future.
Mr. President, we, the Afghan people, are grateful to you and the American people for all that you have done.
I had things in mind to speak about, and you did that. So I will stop short and let the questions come to us.
BUSH: We'll have two questions a side.
QUESTION: Thank you, sir.
Even after hearing that one of the major conclusions of the national intelligence estimate in April was that the Iraq war has fueled terror growth around the world, why have you continued to say that the Iraq war has made this country safer?
And to President Karzai, if I might: What do you think of President Musharraf's comments, that you need to get to know your own country better when you're talking about where terror threats and the Taliban threat is coming from?
BUSH: You want to start?
KARZAI: Go ahead, please.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: I, of course, read the key judgments on the NIE. I agree with their conclusion that, because of our successes against the leadership of al Qaeda, the enemy is becoming more diffuse and independent.
I'm not surprised the enemy is exploiting the situation in Iraq and using it as a propaganda tool to try to recruit more people to their murderous ways.
Some people have, you know, guessed what's in the report and have concluded that going into Iraq was a mistake. I strongly disagree. I think it's naive. I think it's a mistake for people to believe that going on the offense against people that want to do harm to the American people makes us less safe.
The terrorists fight us in Iraq for a reason; they want to try to stop a young democracy from developing, just like they're trying to fight this young democracy in Afghanistan.
And they use it as a recruitment tool because they understand the stakes. They understand what will happen to them when we defeat them in Iraq.
You know, to suggest that if we weren't in Iraq we would see a rosier scenario, with fewer extremists joining the radical movement, requires us to ignore 20 years of experience.
We weren't in Iraq when we got attacked on September the 11th. We weren't in Iraq and thousands of fighters were trained in terror camps inside your country, Mr. President. We weren't in Iraq when they first attacked the World Trade Center in 1993.
KARZAI: Yes, sir.
BUSH: We weren't in Iraq when they bombed the Cole.
KARZAI: Yes, sir.
BUSH: We weren't in Iraq when they blew up our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
My judgment is, if we weren't in Iraq, they'd find some other excuse, because they have ambitions. They kill in order to achieve their objectives.
You know, in the past, Osama bin Laden used Somalia as an excuse for people to join his jihadist movement. In the past, they used the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It was a convenient way to try to recruit people to their jihadist movement. They've used all kinds of excuses.
This government is going to do whatever it takes to protect this homeland. We're not going to let their excuses stop us from staying on the offense.
The best way to protect America is to defeat these killers overseas so we do not have to face them here at home.
We're not going to let lies and propaganda by the enemy dictate how we win this war.
Now, you know what's interesting about the NIE? It was an intelligence report done last April. As I understand, the conclusions -- the evidence on the conclusions reached was stopped being gathered on February -- at the end of February.
And here we are coming down the stretch in an election campaign and it's on the front page of your newspapers. Isn't that interesting? Somebody's taken it upon themselves to leak classified information for political purposes.
I talked to John Negroponte today, the DNI. You know, I think it's a bad habit for our government to declassify every time there's a leak, because it means it's going to be hard to get good product out of our analysts. Those of you who've been around here long enough know what I'm talking about.
But once again there's a leak out of our government, coming right down the stretch in this campaign in order to create confusion in the minds of the American people. In my judgment, that's why they leaked it.
And so we're going to -- I told the DNI to declassify this document. You can read it for yourself. It will stop all the speculation, all the politics about somebody saying something about Iraq; you know, somebody trying to confuse the American people about the nature of this enemy.
And so John Negroponte, the DNI, is going to declassify the document as quickly as possible -- declassify the key judgments for you to read yourself.
And he'll do so in such a way that we'll be able to protect sources and methods of -- that our intelligence community uses.
And then everybody can draw their own conclusions about what the report says.
Thank you.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
BUSH: Why -- why is declass -- what was that question?
QUESTION: Why is that declassification not a political act?
BUSH: Because I want you to read the document so you don't speculate about what it says.
You asked me a question based upon what you thought was in the document -- or at least somebody told you was in the document. And so I think you'll be able to ask a more profound question when you get to look at it yourself...
(LAUGHTER)
... as opposed to relying upon gossip and somebody, you know, who may or may not have seen the document trying to classify the war in Iraq one way or the other.
It's a -- just I guess it's just Washington -- isn't it? -- where, you know, we, kind of -- there's no such thing as classification anymore, hardly.
BUSH: But, anyway, you all take a look at it, and then you'll get to see.
KARZAI: Ma'am...
BUSH: Why don't you ask them -- yeah, you got the two-part question.
KARZAI: Ma'am, before I go to the remarks by my brother, President Musharraf, terrorism was hurting us way before Iraq or September 11. The president mentioned some examples of it.
These extremist forces were killing people in Afghanistan and around for years, closing schools, burning mosques, killing children, uprooting vineyards with vine trees, grapes hanging on them, forcing populations to poverty and misery.
They came to America on September 11, but they were attacking you before September 11 in other parts of the world.
We are a witness in Afghanistan as to what they are and how they can hurt. You are a witness in New York.
Do you forget people jumping off the 80th floor or 70th floor when the planes hit them? Can you imagine what it will be for a man or a woman to jump off that high?
Who did that? And where are they now? And how do we fight them, how do we get rid of them, other than going after them? Should we wait for them to come and kill us again?
That's why we need more action around the world, in Afghanistan and elsewhere, to get them defeated. Extremism, their allies, terrorists and the likes of them.
On the remarks of my brother, President Musharraf, Afghanistan is a country that is emerging out of so many years of war and destruction and occupation by terrorism and misery that they brought to us.
We lost almost two generations to the lack of education. And those who were educated before that are now older.
We know our problems. We have difficulties. But Afghanistan also knows where the problem is, in extremism, in madrassas preaching hatred, places by the name of madrassas preaching hatred. That's what we should do together, to stop.
The United States, as an ally, is helping both countries. And I think it is very important that we have more dedication and more intense work, with sincerity, all of us, to get rid of the problems that we have around the world.
QUESTION: Mr. President, what is your new strategy to fight against terrorism and also to deal with narcotics in Afghanistan?
Thank you.
KARZAI: All right.
This was to me or to President Bush?
(LAUGHTER)
OK.
Ma'am, there is no new strategy on the fight against terrorism. We are continuing the strategy that we have. We are implementing the strategy. We are moving further in that strategy. We are getting more of them. We're trying to clean the country of these elements and the region of these elements by doing more reconstruction, by doing more search for the terrorist elements hiding around there.
So the fight against terrorism will continue the way we started it, on all...
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) think it's working now the way it's going?
KARZAI: It is absolutely working.
We come across difficulties as we are moving forward, and that's bound to happen. And we get over those difficulties. We resolve them, and we go the next stage of this fight against terrorism for all the allies.
At one stage, four years ago we had a war against them to dislodge them from Afghanistan, to remove them from being the government of Afghanistan. And then there were major operations against them to arrest them or to chase them out.
And then we began to rebuild the country, to have roads, to have schools, to have health clinics, to have education, to have all other things that people need all over the world.
And now we are at a stage of bringing more stability and trying to get rid of them forever.
The desire is to do that sooner. But a desire is not always what you get. So it will take time. And we must have the patience to have the time spent on getting rid of them for good.
On narcotics, it is a problem. It is an embarrassment to Afghanistan. And I told President Bush earlier in my conversation with him we feel very much embarrassed for having narcotics growing in our country.
But again, it has come to Afghanistan because of years of our desperation and lack of hope for tomorrow.
I know Afghan families, ma'am, who destroyed their pomegranate orchards or vineyards to replace them with poppies because they did not know if they were going to have their children the next day, if they were going to be there in their own country the next day, if they were going to be having their homes standing the next day.
It has become a reality because of droughts and years of misery. We have worked on the problem. In some areas of the country we have succeeded. In other areas of the country we have failed because of the circumstances and because of our own failures.
We have discussed that, and we will continue to be very steadfast. It is Afghanistan's problem, so Afghanistan is responsible for it and Afghanistan should act on it, with the help of our friends in the United States and the rest of the world.
QUESTION: Former President Clinton says that your administration had no meetings on bin Laden for nine months after he left office. Is that factually accurate? And how do you respond to his charges?
BUSH: You know, look, I've watched all this, you know, finger- pointing and, you know, namings of names and all that stuff. Our objective is to secure the country.
And we've had investigations, we had the 9/11 Commission, we had the look-back this, we've had the look-back that.
The American people need to know that we spend all our time doing everything we can to protect them.
And I'm not going to comment on, you know, other comments. But I will comment on this; that we're on the offense against an enemy who wants to do us harm, and we must have the tools necessary to protect our country.
On the one hand, if al Qaeda or al Qaeda affiliates are calling somebody in the country, we need to know why. That's why Congress needs to pass that piece of legislation.
If somebody's got information about a potential attack, we need to be able to ask that person some questions. And so Congress has got to pass the piece of legislation.
You can't protect America unless we give those people on the front lines of protecting this country the tools necessary to do so within the Constitution.
And that's what the debate is here in the United States. There are some decent people who don't believe -- evidently don't believe we're at war and, therefore, shouldn't give the administration what is necessary to protect us.
And that goes back to her question: Does being on the offense mean we create terrorists?
My judgment is: The only way to defend the country is to stay on the offense. It is preposterous to think, if we were to withdraw, and hope for the best, things would turn out fine, against this enemy.
That was my point about, you know, before we were in Iraq, there was thousands being trained in Afghanistan to strike America and other places.
The only way to protect this country is to stay on the offense, is to deal with threats before they fully materialize and, in the long term, help democracy succeed, like Afghanistan and Iraq and Lebanon and a Palestinian state.
But there's a difference of opinion. It will become clear during this campaign, where people will say: Get out; leave before the job is done. And those are good, decent, patriotic people who believe that way. I just happen to believe they're absolutely wrong.
And so I'm going to continue to work to protect this country. And we'll let history judge all the different finger-pointing and all that business.
I don't have enough time to finger-point. I've got to stay -- I've got to do my job, which comes home every day in the Oval Office, and that is to protect the American people from further attack.
Now there are some who say: Well, maybe it's not going to happen, you know? Well, they don't see what I see.
All I ask is that they look at that terror plot that, along with the Brits, we helped to help stop: people who were going to get on an airplane and blow up innocent lives in order to achieve political objectives.
They're out there. They're mean. And they need to be brought to justice.
QUESTION: Thank you, sir.
Mr. President, are you convinced, like President Bush, that the deal General Musharraf signed with the tribal leaders in Waziristan actually meant to fight Taliban?
And why are you convinced that Osama bin Laden is not in Afghanistan?
And if I may, Mr. President, do you agree with the analysis from the European counterterrorism -- chief European spokesman who said today that the international support for terrorism has receded?
BUSH: Yes.
QUESTION: Do you agree with that? And so you see the tension between two important allies of yours, Pakistan and Afghanistan, undermining your effort to get Osama bin Laden?
Thank you.
BUSH: It's a four-part question.
First of all...
(LAUGHTER)
... I didn't -- what was this person a spokesman for?
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
BUSH: Some obscure spokesman?
QUESTION: No, actually, he has a name...
BUSH: OK, he's got a name.
(LAUGHTER)
No, I don't agree with the spokesman for the obscure organization that said that the international commitment to fighting terror is declining. Quite the contrary; starting with the evidence that NATO has committed troops in Afghanistan. These are troops who are on the ground, who are serving incredibly bravery -- bravely to protect this country.
Secondly, when we -- when the Brits, along with our help, intercepted the plot to attack us, everybody started saying, "They're still there." You know, they began to realize that their hopes that the terrorist threats were going away were (sic) true.
Since September the 11th, it's important for the American people to remember there have been a lot of attacks on a lot of nations by these jihadists. And some of them are Al Qaeda and some of them are al Qaeda-inspired.
The NIE talked about how this group of folks are becoming more dispersed. That's what I've been saying as well.
After all, look inside of Great Britain. These are people inspired by, perhaps trained by, al Qaeda, but nevertheless plotted and planned attacks and conducted attacks in the summer of 2005 and then plotted attacks in the summer of 2006. They're dangerous, and the world knows that. And so from my perspective, intelligence-sharing is good, cooperation on the financial fronts is good, and that more and more nations are committing troops to the fight, in Afghanistan in particular.
Now, the other question...
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) does this undermine the efforts of getting bin Laden?
BUSH: No, no, it doesn't. It's in President Karzai's interest to see bin Laden brought to justice.
It is in President Musharraf's interests to see bin Laden brought to justice. Our interests coincide.
You know, it'll be interesting for me to watch the body language of these two leaders to determine how tense things are.
KARZAI: I'll be good.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: Yes.
From my discussions with President Karzai and President Musharraf, there is an understanding that by working together it is more likely that all of us can achieve a common objective, which are stable societies that are hopeful societies that prevent extremists from stopping progress and denying people a hopeful world.
I know that's what President Karzai thinks and I know that's how President Musharraf thinks.
So I'm, kind of, teasing about the body language for the dinner tomorrow night, but it's going to be a good dinner. And it's an important dinner.
And so to answer your question, no.
(LAUGHTER)
But what you perceived as tension, as stopping us from bringing high-value targets to justice -- quite the contrary. We're working as hard as ever in doing that.
KARZAI: On the question of Waziristan, ma'am, President Musharraf, when he was in Kabul, explained what they had done there.
My initial impression was that this was a deal signed with the Taliban. And then later I learned that they had actually signed with the tribal chiefs.
It will have a different meeting if it is that -- signed with the tribal chiefs. But for us, for the United States, for the allies against terror, the most important element here is item number one in this agreement: that the terrorists will not be allowed to cross over into Afghanistan to attack the coalition against terror -- that is, the international community and Afghanistan together.
We will have to wait and see if that is going to be implemented exactly the way it is signed.
So, from our side, it's a wait-and-see attitude. But, generally, we will back any move, any deal that will deny terrorism a sanctuary in North Waziristan or in the tribal territories of Pakistan.
BUSH: Mr. President, thank you.
KARZAI: Thank you, sir.
BUSH: Well done.
KARZAI: Great. Thank you. Wonderful.
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