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Police Hold News Conference on Fatal Colorado School Shooting; Iraqi Police Find 60 Corpses in Last 24 Hours; Rumsfeld: Man of War
Aired September 28, 2006 - 10:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Spend a second hour in the NEWSROOM this morning and stay informed.
I'm Heidi Collins.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone.
I'm Tony Harris.
A Colorado sheriff you heard just moments ago revealing new details about a Denver area school shooting. The suspect is dead, so is one student.
COLLINS: More about that in a moment.
Hewlett-Packard execs, in the meantime, in front of Congress this morning. The corporate spy scandal that's shaking Silicon Valley.
HARRIS: Our CNN special, "Donald Rumsfeld: Man of War." We talk with the journalist behind the new documentary this Thursday, the 28th day of September.
You're in the NEWSROOM.
And let's send you back now once again to Bailey, Colorado.
We're hearing now from a school official.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Park County investigators, Jefferson County investigators, CBI investigators, and also federal investigators, both ATF and FBI, are assisting in every way. I just really wanted to underscore and support the sheriff, as a former sheriff myself, that these events like this do traumatize communities.
You know, this is a -- this is a very peaceful, decent community with decent, good people. And the purpose of our investigation is to try to determine the motive of this shooter.
This community didn't ask for this. This individual chose to come in and traumatize and injure these individuals. The tactical team members, they're traumatized.
They wanted to go in and do a good job yesterday. They did a great job under the circumstances. I think often people don't appreciate that the events that go on in a tactical operation, we're talking seconds. They save lives. The sheriff had a tough call to make, but it was the right call to make. And what I have been able to review and perceive and support the sheriff on, it was -- they had -- they had an effective plan.
They effected their active shooter -- their shooter program. But part of our investigation is to look at all aspects.
We don't want -- we don't want the death of this child to be in vain. We want to get to the bottom of it. We will deploy all resources possible.
You know, our whole purpose is to have Colorado be the safest place in the world. And we take a lot of pride in our schools and our kids. They're our number one asset. And this death would have been in vain if we don't learn from this, if we don't determine what we can do to hopefully always do our jobs better, always enhance cool safety.
But what I can tell is that the school here, the sheriff's office, they have great relationships. They work well together. They exercise and train, and they had a good plan. They executed that plan, and it worked well.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They drilled, they exercised. They have great relationships with the parents and the kids. And as the sheriff said, I think that's one of the -- I think one of those -- probably both the noble and probably the aspect of the job that makes you most humble is that relationship you have with your community. When they choose you and empower you to protect them, that's the highest calling that there is.
And I tell you, there were folks in tears last night, you know, and broken hearts. But today the attitude is a little different. Now we got to kind of, you know, re-circle the wagons in getting there and deploy our resources and get to the bottom of this.
QUESTION: Do you know anything about the suspect?
QUESTION: What is the protocol for security at the high school?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, currently, right -- well, I'll let the -- I'll let the sheriff and under sheriff talk about their operational plan. Right now (INAUDIBLE) we have the area cordoned off for that level of security until...
HARRIS: Maybe -- maybe this gentleman said it best, a traumatized community is what he's describing there in Bailey, Colorado.
Heidi, learning more details in the last few minutes about what happened there yesterday and who was responsible.
COLLINS: Oh, boy, that's for sure. And you can see the emotion all over the Park County sheriff's face when he first came to the microphone.
I want to go and get to some of the sound from that incase you may have missed his thoughts on the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF FRED WEGENER, PARK COUNTY, COLORADO: It's been a tough night for the men and women of the Park County Sheriff's Office.
I have gone from upset to angry. Angry that this man has done this to our community. Angry that this man has done this to our children. This morning the suspect has been identified tentatively as Duane Morrison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Fifty-four years old. Living out of his vehicle. No known connection to the immediate community.
COLLINS: Yes, which is interesting, because I think that we had first heard that he lived there for a while and just recently moved.
HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: Had a Denver address, but was living out of his car.
HARRIS: No motive identified yet. There's his picture.
And then the sheriff, in very emotional terms, talked about the -- the women, the young girls who were held by this man, and that during the course of the day there was conversation with this gentleman that broke off at various times. That he used the young girls to communicate his thoughts and that he promised something would happen at 4:00 p.m. local time.
The sheriff saying that the young girls were traumatized. "It was an assault on our children." Here's more from the sheriff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEGENER: As you have alluded to, we have confirmed he did traumatize and assault our children. This was the information that was being fed to me from the SWAT team, which is why I made the decision I did. We had to go try and save them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Boy, you just don't want to think about it. It was a long time, too. I'm sure an absolute eternity for the children inside that classroom.
They say they got that call at 11:40, they dispatched by 11:41, and then the negotiations were cut off around 3:30 or so with the deadline that the gunman had announced of 4:00 p.m. And then that was -- that was when the SWAT teams went in.
HARRIS: And I guess I'll remember the sheriff saying there that his community, his community has changed by all of this.
HARRIS: Well, these are a lot of the same guys, same responders to the Columbine event in Jefferson County in Littleton, Colorado, back in 1999. And the amount of trauma that they, too, go through -- you know, we forget about it. It's very much secondary to the families and the victims and so forth, but now working this again, and you maybe can't help but think about their thoughts on all of this, too.
HARRIS: And I think there was a final note that there may be another update at 3:00 p.m. local time there in Colorado. We'll, of course, monitor that situation and bring you the latest as get more information on the story.
COLLINS: To Iraq now. More bombs and bodies in Baghdad. Police have found 60 corpses in just the past 24 hours. Most had been tied, tortured and shot to death. Plus, several explosions rocked the city today.
CNN's Arwa Damon joins us now live from Baghdad -- Arwa.
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Heidi.
That's right. In fact, U.S. military officials are now saying that sectarian violence is the number one cause of death. And it is not just the number one cause of death, it is also most Iraqis' number one fear.
Many of them fear being the victims of sectarian violence. They can easily imagine what an incredibly excruciating and unimaginable experience that must be.
Some of them have neighbors that have become victims of sectarian violence, loved ones, or at the least, the very least, they have all heard the stories. Fearing that much more than they fear the attacks that we see on a regular basis.
Today, in span of six hours, at least eight explosions just in the capital of Baghdad. Eight Iraqis killed. At least 50 wounded.
In the latest attack that happened at about 1:30 in the afternoon, on a main central Baghdad road a car bomb detonated. The Iraqi police went to respond. As they arrived on the scene, a roadside bomb exploded. At least four Iraqis killed in that attack, over 38 wounded.
And this is a tactic, Heidi, that is very often used by the insurgents. They'll set off one set of explosives, be it a roadside bomb or car bomb, wait for the Iraqi security forces to arrive, for the U.S. military to arrive, and then set off that second explosive -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Arwa, can you talk a little bit about the sentiment on the street? We have heard in the past a lot of blame goes toward the United States. Is there ever any mention in these critical times of Iraqis being outraged that other Iraqis are killing their brethren? Muslims killing Muslims?
DAMON: Well, this is what's interesting about that, Heidi, is that a lot of Iraqis when you ask them who is behind the violence, they will say, no, it is people from the outside. Many of them really don't want to accept that Iraqis are killing Iraqis, even that Iraqi Sunnis are killing Iraqi Shias, because the Iraq that they remember and the Iraq that they lived in for so long was one where Sunnis and Shias lived side by side.
So, a lot of people really just don't want to accept that it is Iraqis killing Iraqis. They very often will place blame on outside influences, be it Iran, be it al Qaeda in Iraq, be it any number of insurgent and terrorist groups that are operating in this country. Very few will say and admit that Iraqis are actually carrying out attacks against other Iraqis. For them that is just something that right now, especially with all of the instability in the country, that they really don't want to think about -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Arwa Damon, live from Baghdad.
Arwa, thanks.
HARRIS: And we continue to listen to and to parse out a new audiotape, 20 minutes in length, from the new leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. He is calling for every holy fighter in Iraq to strive during this holy month of Ramadan to capture Christians, Americans there, to work out some kind of an exchange for the Egyptian cleric Omar Abdel- Rahman, jailed over charges here in the United States linked to the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Obviously no chance of that happening.
We're still working to authenticate the tape, but it was posted on one of the main Web sites used by the militants. We'll continue to take that -- take apart and bring you more newsworthy information.
COLLINS: And you might want to catch this, too, Rumsfeld revealed, how 9/11 shaped the defense secretary and his views. It's a new CNN documentary which takes a look at Rumsfeld.
A preview coming up in the NEWSROOM.
HARRIS: United by the hunt for Osama bin Laden. Divided over other key issues. Efforts to ease tensions between allies.
Details coming up in the NEWSROOM.
COLLINS: And the widow of "Crocodile Hunter" Steve Irwin, her heartache, her memories.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRI IRWIN, STEVE IRWIN'S WIDOW: And I remember thinking, "Don't say it. Don't say it. Don't say it."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Terri Irwin tells it to Barbara Walters. It's straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.
You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: On the menu, sea bass. On the agenda, simmering tensions between two allies in the war on terror. The White House describes the dinner meeting with the presidents of Pakistan and Afghanistan as constructive but no breakthroughs.
Details now from White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: According to White House officials, it is was a productive dinner. There was a statement that was released from the press secretary. I'll read just a little bit of it and then we'll get into some of the color from a senior administration official.
The official statement saying, "They committed to supporting moderation, defeating extremism through greater intelligence sharing, coordinated action against terrorists, and common efforts to enhance the prosperity of the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan."
A little bit behind the scenes, however, a senior administration official telling me that of course it started in the Oval Office, where the two leaders greeted each other warmly. It was a very brief greeting before they all walked out into the Rose Garden. President Bush making a brief statement.
There was a lot made over that on-camera appearance, the fact that two leaders did not shake hands, that their body language was kind of distant and stiff. We are told that offcamera there was very warm interaction between the two in the Oval Office and then, of course, walking to the old family room, the dining room there.
The two leaders sat across from each other, and we're told that as soon as this meal began they dove right into some of those controversial topics. They talked about Osama bin Laden. They talked about the security efforts through Musharraf, his deal that he's made with the tribal elders. They talked about the security concerns between their two countries, directly with one another, also with the president.
We are also told that this is a dinner that lasted much, much longer than expected. It was slated to be just about an hour. It went two and a half hours, which a senior administration official is saying is really quite extraordinary for this president.
And then, finally, wrapping this up, they said that there were no breakthroughs in the conversation but that they really had a good clearing of the air and that everyone walked away from this quite pleased. President Bush walking both of them after the dinner to the portico at the White House. That is where the two leaders again shook hands and also made a commitment saying that they were going to follow up on these discussions at a later date.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: What of the back and forth then? Pakistan and Afghanistan at odds over critical issues. Now many are wondering if these two allies can't trust each other, can the U.S. trust them in the war on terror?
CNN Senior National Correspondent John Roberts reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush calls them friends, Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai, Pakistan's Pervez Musharraf. Certainly, they are crucial allies in the president's war on terror, but how much can they be counted on?
Bob Grenier is the former head of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center.
BOB GRENIER, FORMER CIA STATION CHIEF: Each of those leaders and both of those countries have very complicated political situations. And what is perhaps of the greatest relevance to us is that neither leader controls all of his territory. And that's where the problems of greatest concern to the United States really arise.
ROBERTS: And the greatest concern right now is the Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan. Musharraf denies giving the Taliban safe haven in Pakistan's tribal areas.
But, since he signed a peace agreement with leaders in those territories, the U.S. military reports, cross-border attacks have tripled. And, says CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen, Taliban control in Afghanistan is part of Pakistan's strategic defense plan.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: They have, you know, something called strategic depth. It's the -- their kind of military policy, is: If India attacks us, we want to be able to have Afghanistan as a back area, from which we can regroup and resupply and rearm. And the Taliban is part of that strategic depth policy.
ROBERTS: And what about Karzai? Profits from Afghanistan's unchecked opium industry help fund Taliban fighters, who are killing American and NATO troops.
HAMID KARZAI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: We're embarrassed because of it. And we will have to get rid of it.
ROBERTS: Is Karzai doing enough to eradicate poppy fields? Grenier says no, and by choice, afraid to anger warlords, who control the narcotics trade.
GRENIER: He dare not alienate large elements of his population who are not currently alienated, given the fact that he already has a very large insurgency that he's fighting. ROBERTS: And, then, there's Pakistan's commitment to hunt al Qaeda. Does Musharraf really want to find Osama bin Laden? Not when he's far more popular in Pakistan than Musharraf is, says Bergen.
BERGEN: No Pakistani politician, including President Musharraf, would go after bin Laden, because it would be political suicide to do so.
ROBERTS: So, why stick with these two leaders? Well, Karzai was handpicked by the U.S., won a popular election, and remains fiercely loyal to President Bush. In Pakistan, there are no good alternatives. And experts believe, at his core, Musharraf is on the same team.
BERGEN: Here's a guy who survived at least two very serious assassination attempts by al Qaeda, has personally taken risks. I mean, in the real world, he's about as good an ally as you're going to get.
ROBERTS (on camera): The urgent and difficult task for President Bush will be to get some sort of commitment from Pakistan to deal with the Taliban issue. Until now, most of the attention has been focused on battling the foreign fighters that make up al Qaeda in the wild border region. But the Taliban is quickly becoming the greatest threat to American interests in the region.
John Roberts, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: And you can see more of John Roberts' reports on "PAULA ZAHN NOW." Watch weeknights, 8:00 Eastern, only on CNN.
COLLINS: Well, the damage a leak can do. Politics aside, those gathering the intelligence may be hurt the most. We'll follow the fallout coming up in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Michael, let's take a look at that live picture.
The hearing going on right now before the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee. A lot of corporate intrigue on Capitol Hill, obviously. Current and former executives from Hewlett-Packard on the Hill and on the hot seat, frankly, this morning.
Just a couple of moments ago we heard from former legal counsel for Hewlett-Packard, Ann Baskins. She actually, Heidi, refused to answer a couple of questions. They're testifying...
COLLINS: I'm shocked.
HARRIS: Yes. They are testifying about the spy scandal at the company.
You know what? Let's do this. Let's listen to Ann Baskins from just a couple of moments ago. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANN BASKINS, FMR. GENERAL COUNSEL, HP: Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer based on the rights and protections guaranteed to me by the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, Ms. Baskins, you are refusing to answer all of our questions today based on the right against self- incrimination afforded to you under the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution?
BASKINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it is your intention to assert that right for any and all questions that would be asked today?
BASKINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: She's a lawyer. She's decided she's not going to answer any questions today. Wonder where this hearing will go.
The scandal at Hewlett-Packard started with the search for a source of a leak. It led to the company spying on its own board members and journalists.
More now from CNN's Peter Viles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Why would anyone in their right mind want to spy on this Dawn Kawamoto? They'd find out she's a mild-mannered law-abiding reporter.
DAWN KAWAMOTO, CNET NEWS: I'm a boring person. I don't know what...
VILES: But she now knows private eyes working for Hewlett- Packard put her under surveillance, took photos of her, pretended to be her to get access to her phone records. And she does not think it is funny.
KAWAMOTO: I'm furious on different levels just in regard to my privacy. You know, it's like -- like having somebody come and just invade what you think are private records. That's made me really furious.
VILES: Private investigators for Hewlett-Packard also got the phone records of her colleague, Tom Krazit.
TOM KRAZIT, CNET NEWS: Pretending to be me in order to get records from my cell phone provider or my home phone company. VILES: And he doesn't think it is funny either.
KRAZIT: As I learned more about, you know, what they had done, yes, I grew very angry about, you know, the fact that my privacy had been invaded in such a fashion.
VILES: California top prosecutor says some of the spying was criminal.
BILL LOCKYER, CALIFORNIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: In California, we're the only state in the United States that privacy rights are our First Amendment. Article I, Section I of the state constitution guarantees a right of privacy.
VILES: At a press briefing on Friday where video cameras were not allowed, CEO Mark Hurd apologized but refused to answer questions about the spy scandal.
JIM KERSTETTER, EDITOR, CNET NEWS: It's not a question of accepting an apology. It's a question of finding out exactly what happened. And right now we still don't really know.
VILES: Kawamoto and Krazit were targeted partly because of this article which relied on an unnamed source to report on a Hewlett- Packard management retreat. Board chairman Patricia Dunn was so upset about leaks she launched an investigation which eventually targeted nine journalists.
KRAZIT: Something that as you learn more and more of these things, you just kind of shake your head and grow more and more angry at what -- what had happened.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: Heidi, let's take you back now to the hearing that's going on right now with the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee in Washington D.C., all about the Hewlett-Packard spying scandal.
Now, we told you just a couple of minutes ago that Ann Baskins, who was the former legal counsel for Hewlett-Packard, who resigned this morning, refused to answer any questions. And that pattern is continuing at this hour, even at this moment.
So we're just wondering aloud, what will Mark Hurd say, who is the -- who's running the company right now? What will we say when it is his turn to answer questions? And then what about the ousted chairwoman, Patricia Dunn?
We will just continue to follow this and we will bring you updates.
COLLINS: In the shadow of Columbine now. A gunman triggers a deadly series of events at a Colorado high school. We'll have the very latest on that coming your way next.
And a treasure trove millions of miles from Earth. This rocky crater could hold the key to mysteries of the Red Planet this hour in the NEWSROOM.
You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The motive remains a mystery. Those words from the sheriff investigating yesterday's deadly hostage situation taking place at a Denver area high school, about 40 miles south of that area. The gunman is identified as 54-year-old Duane Morrison. He was living in his vehicle, but had a Denver address. Witnesses are saying that Duane Morrison walked into the school and took six girls hostage. Police say he shot and killed his last hostage and then himself, just as the SWAT team stormed into the classroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF FRED WEGENER, PARK COUNTRY, COLORADO: As you have alluded to, we have confirmed he did traumatize and assault our children. This was the information that was being fed to me from the SWAT team. This is why I made the decision I did. We had to go try and save them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The sheriff says after the suspect killed himself, at least two guns were found on his body.
Want to go directly now to Carol Lin, standing by at the news desk for some information coming in about a bus accident, Carol?
CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Heidi, take a look at these pictures. There you see a school bus in Sussex County. It apparently was in a head-on collision with that dump truck that you also see in that picture right now. New Jersey state police have told CNN that this collision happened around 9:30 this morning and that students, about 11 of them, were transported to hospitals around Sussex County.
And apparently the driver -- we think it's the bus driver, though -- the driver and a student also were medevacked out. This happened in north central New Jersey. And apparently, when the call went out, state police took this very seriously. They sent three different units out to the scene. But this -- you know, look at that. You see the front part of the bus completely detached.
Heidi, and these are the kinds of school buses that they don't have seat belts on them. So this could have been much, much worse. Local affiliates are reporting 18 students and at least two adults were being treated for injuries after this head-on collision. So that's what we have for you.
HARRIS: All right, Carol. Thank you.
Well, he is certainly a lightning rod in the debate over the Iraq war. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stands firm against his critics. Now a new "CNN PRESENTS" documentary takes a revealing look at Rumsfeld.
In this excerpt, special correspondent Fran Sesno looks at how 9/11 helped shape Rumsfeld's view of the war on terror.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK SESNO, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): September 11th, 2001, America under attack. The Pentagon, nerve center of America's military, is burning. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is inside.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I felt the shock of the airplane hitting the building.
LARRY DIRITA, FMR. SPECIAL ASST. TO RUMSFELD: Something happened. He heard it, there was commotion and he moved toward it to understand it, to see what was happening.
SESNO: Larry DiRita watches his boss rush through the smoke to the spot where people are hurt.
DIRITA: While his perspective is one of detachment when something like this happens, his instincts are of throwing himself into what's going on.
SESNO: There is chaos.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Everything in flames. The dead, wounded, were tended to. But Don Rumsfeld refused to leave.
SESNO: CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr calls it the essential Donald Rumsfeld.
STARR: No retreat. No surrender.
SESNO (on camera): And I was going to ask you about 9/11 and that day for you.
(voice-over): Rumsfeld shows me the piece of the plane he keeps in his office, a constant reminder.
RUMSFELD: Well, it certainly focuses the mind to think of seeing those sights of the airplanes going into the Twin Towers and crashing into this building, and the one out at Shenksville.
SESNO: He had seen terrorism's horrific aftermath before as President Reagan's Middle East envoy in the mid-80s, when he visited Beirut shortly after a suicide bomber killed 241 U.S. servicemen. It left a lasting impression and taught him a lesson.
STARR: What he recalls the most and he's used in conversation as an example is the adaptability of terrorists. I think he views Lebanon as the case study in the resiliency of terrorist networks.
SESNO: President Reagan pulled out of Lebanon. Rumsfeld learned from that, too, because the terrorists saw it as American weakness and didn't stop.
Saudi Arabia, U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole, 9/11. This time, America would declare war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: Frank Sesno joins us now. Good work.
SESNO: Good to see you.
HARRIS: Good to see you. You know, we all tend to sort of look at ourselves and define ourselves in terms of where we were or what we were like as people before 9/11, and then after and how things have changed for us individually.
Donald Rumsfeld, not so much as an individual, but -- we can talk about that, of course -- but as a defense secretary, this was a man who ran a very different mission before 9/11. 9/11 happens and he knows, has to, that he is going to be this man, Donald Rumsfeld, man of war.
SESNO: Well, it's very interesting. Coming into office and up until 9/11, Rumsfeld's mission was missile defense, space-based systems and transformation of the military. He wanted to modernize it, change it, bring it into the 21st century, make it a different fighting force to confront a different enemy. It was propelled, that transformation, by 9/11, but it was also changed fundamentally.
So here you got this very tough guy who fancies himself a change agent. He really does. He likes to change organizations, turns them on their heads, throw people out, change the rules, look to the future. And suddenly 9/11 happens, and now we see, you know, where we are today. A tough place.
HARRIS: Yes, it leads to Afghanistan and then to Iraq. Of course, you talk about Iraq.
SESNO: Oh, yes. In the documentary, we track all this and his role, his management style, in getting us there.
HARRIS: And what do you make of it? I'm sure he takes no prisoners and I'm sure you pushed it with him, pushed him on Iraq and the decisions he's made. What's his retort? What did you see in this man?
SESNO: Well, first thing is, Donald Rumsfeld doesn't give an inch. And you hear that when you talk to his generals. You know that. They tell you he doesn't give an inch. And if you don't go into a meeting prepared to take on Donald Rumsfeld, he'll chew you up and spit you out.
In our conversation -- actually one of the first things I said is, you know, there are a lot of angry people out there, and a lot of folks say go in and give Donald Rumsfeld hell for the place we're in. And he says, you know what, it's easy to be on the outside and criticize. The criticism -- I almost describe it as -- it's like highway noise to him. You know, it's just one of those things that's out there. And he says every war has been criticized. They're never popular. I got to do what's right. And he really seems to tune it out.
HARRIS: Highway noise because he feels -- he believes...
SESNO: Totally. Totally. Totally believes that this is a necessary war; that Iraq, despite what anybody says, despite the national intelligence estimate that says it may be a breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists, is, in fact, the front lines on terrorism. That this is a war that has to be fought for the future. His nightmare, Tony, his nightmare is nuclear weapons or biological weapons in the hands of the terrorists. He believes they'll use them.
HARRIS: If every day folks watching from Baltimore, from Atlanta, if they had an opportunity to spend some time, the kind of time that you had, rarely given, what do you think would be the complicated take away?
SESNO: Well, you would probably find that he's a lot -- the person from Baltimore or everywhere -- would find that Donald Rumsfeld is shorter than you think he is when he walks in the room. Firm handshake. More gracious. More humorous than a lot of people would think. A lot of folks who know him say there's actually a soft side to him.
When I pushed him on declining support for the war, eroding popularity, that's when you see flash of anger. That's when he'll take you on, he'll challenge your premise. Because he says, you know, you got to have the long view. But confident, confident. Strong. That's what he projects.
HARRIS: Does he have a sense of his own place in all of this as a personality? That he is one of the faces, he is one of the personalities, he is defining -- one of the defining personalities of this time, of this post-9/11 era?
SESNO: He won't talk about himself. I tried to get him to do that. But as we -- walking around the office, he showed me portraits of Churchill and Eisenhower, a plaque of Teddy Roosevelt. He sees them as critical figures in pivotal moments of crisis in history. It's clear that's how he sees himself.
HARRIS: Can't wait, can't wait, this weekend, CNN, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Why he says the war is not a mistake. An exclusive interview, candid comments. Watch "RUMSFELD: MAN OF WAR," CNN Saturday and Sunday evening, at 8:00 Eastern.
Frank, thank you.
SESNO: My pleasure. Good to see you.
COLLINS: The damage a leak can do. Politics aside, those gathering the intelligence may be the ones hurt the most. We'll follow the fallout, coming up next in the NEWSROOM.
You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Her grief is painfully real and raw, but the widow of Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin tells ABC's Barbara Walters she is coping one minute at a time. In a heart-wrenching interview on "20/20," Terri Irwin describes the moment she realized her husband was gone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA WALTERS, HOST, "20/20": Terri, where were you when you heard about Steve's death?
TERRI IRWIN, WIDOW OF STEVE IRWIN: I was traveling, so I couldn't get phone reception, so no one could reach me. And when I got to the destination for the night and they said you have an urgent message. And it was my brother-in-law on the phone and he told me what happened. And I remember thinking, don't say it, don't say it, don't say it. And I looked out the window and Bindi was skipping -- skipping along outside the window, and I thought, oh my children! He wouldn't have wanted to leave the children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In another interview, Terri Irwin said her husband always felt he would die early, but he never thought it would be an animal that would kill him. Steve Irwin was killed while swimming when a stingray's barb jagged and pierced his heart.
HARRIS: Well, you knew she would talk at some point. You knew it would be painful. But it's...
COLLINS: Yes, I think it's in your nature, yes.
HARRIS: You just -- you knew she'd want to mark his life and honor his life. And boy, she sure does.
COLLINS: It's so hard with the kids, though.
HARRIS: It sure is.
(BUSINESS HEADLINES)
HARRIS: And if you want to follow the HP hearings going on right now, go to CNN.com/pipeline, and you can follow, gavel to gavel, the hearing as it takes place right now in Washington.
COLLINS: Well, the intelligence leak is out. Now the fallout. CNN's Brian Todd takes a look at the damage.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The White House holds firm, it will not release the bulk of a classified National Intelligence Estimate on terrorism. That would risk the lives of agents, officials say, compromise sources and methods, and ... TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Would you want our intelligence analysts who are going to be able to give you their free and full views of what the situation is? If they think that their work is constantly going to be released to the public, they're going to pull their punches.
TODD: But the damage has already been done, say intelligence experts.
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think having a political food fight about this estimate will have a chilling effect on analysts. I mean they write these things as serious documents for serious deliberation, not to be cherry picked by both sides to score political points.
TODD: John McLaughlin and former CIA officers we spoke to agree. This document doesn't reveal much sensitive information.
MCLAUGHLIN: A lot of it comes as no surprise such as the point that the global jihadist movement is decentralizing.
TODD: Or the finding that the Iraq war has rallied jihadists groups to their cause. But analysts say this leak shows a chink in America's armor. An intelligence process that's become heavily politicized, thus more vulnerable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friendly countries begin to wonder whether their sensitive information passed to us is secure.
TODD: There's also the spin factor. As one former CIA officer put it, Al-Jazeera will get this material and the jihadists will use it for propaganda. And there's cumulative damage. This is the fifth leak of a major intelligence operation in recent months, after the warrantless wiretapping program, the monitoring of terrorist financing, the collection of phone records and the CIA secret prisons leak.
(on camera): The result of all those leaks put together? Former CIA officers say terrorist networks now know more about how they're monitored than they've ever known before.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: We want to get to this, just into us now. A suspicious powdery substance apparently has been found in Senator Cornyn's office, that's in the Hart Building on Capitol Hill. Police spokeswoman Kimberly Schneider is telling CNN is telling CNN this is what is going on. A hazmat team has responded. Remarkably similar to the situation, I believe it was just yesterday, when we were talking about the U.S. District Courtroom, and we had hazmat teams going in there as well for a suspicious package.
The building has not been evacuated, a difference from yesterday. Yesterday they did evacuate pretty quickly. So once again, a suspicious powder found in Senator Cornyn's office at the Hart Office Building. You can see pictures there from Google Earth showing exactly where that location is.
HARRIS: You know, Chad Myers is tracking a typhoon, and I believe we have some pictures. Maybe we'll cue those up for you in just a bit from a report of the typhoon. We'll get to those pictures right after this quick break.
You are in the NEWSROOM. You are watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: "YOUR WORLD TODAY" coming up at the top of the hour. Ralitsa Vassileva is there with a preview.
RALITSA VASSILEVA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, guys.
HARRIS: Good to see you, lady. Good morning.
VASSILEVA: Good to see you.
Well, what we're going to tell you about is what al Qaeda in Iraq is now asking its followers to do, which means more kidnappings could be on the way. Also we'll tell you why the Israeli president's job could be hanging in the balance over sexual allegations he denies. We'll also show you a very special burial in the old Russian royal capital. The mother of the last Russian czar finally gets her wish. We'll tell you about that and more at the top of the hour. Join me and Jim Clancy for that.
HARRIS: Will do.
VASSILEVA: And you too, guys.
Nice to see you.
COLLINS: Nice to see you. Thanks, Ralitsa.
I also want to quickly take you back to Washington, D.C. Suspicious powdery substance has apparently been found in Senator Cornyn's office, that's at the Hart Office Building. A Capitol Hill Police spokeswoman has confirmed this to CNN. A hazmat team is sweeping the area. The building, though, has not been evacuated. So, two suspicious incidents in as many days there in Washington D.C. You see exactly where the building is and we will follow that story for you.
HARRIS: Chad Myers is tracking Typhoon Phyllis (ph) for us.
Good to see you, Chad.
COLLINS: Doesn't sound too threatening, but I bet she could probably whip it up pretty good.
(WEATHER REPORT) COLLINS: We also want to remind you about something else we found out and learned today, CNN confirming a new videotape from the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. It is the first long message, about 20 minutes or so, that he has put out. So we're checking on that, going to bring you more information should it become important enough to do so.
HARRIS: We'll take a break.
COLLINS: yes, we will. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: CNN NEWSROOM continues just one hour from now.
HARRIS: "YOUR WORLD TODAY" is next with news happening around the globe and here at home.
I'm Tony Harris.
COLLINS: And I'm Heidi Collins. Have a great, Thursday it is, right?
Thursday, everybody. We'll see you tomorrow.
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