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Manhunt Under Way For Florida Gunman; President Bush Pushes Terrorism Legislation on Capitol Hill; Rumsfeld Profile; Drugs -- Enough or Too Much?
Aired September 28, 2006 - 14:58 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Straight to Lakeland, Florida, once again, where that search for the armed gunman is still in full force, a massive manhunt going on.
You can see police officers and sheriff's deputies, also the SWAT team, now moving into the residential areas of Lakeland, Florida, because of this gunman. And they're not quite sure if he has moved out of the wooded area, into the residential area now.
We are told residents have been calling in, saying that they have seen this man, black male, dreadlocks, white T-shirt, already wounded two deputies, shot at another force of police officers -- three schools on lockdown.
Bay News 9, Rick Elmhorst working this story for us, he is there on the scene.
Rick, what new -- OK, we lost him. We will try and get him back on the phone there.
I will kind of bring you up to date on how this all happened, while we try to get Rick back on the phone.
But this is the deal. Police were pursuing a driver that was speeding. They pulled him over. He got out of the car, engaged in conversation with the deputies. The deputies acknowledged who they were, and asked him for I.D. He showed false I.D. He said -- asked if he was going to be arrested. The deputies said they didn't know.
At that point, the suspect took off, running into this wooded area. And when he came close to the deputies that started to pursue him with a K-9, he opened fire, shooting those two duties.
I think we have got Bay News 9 -- Rick Elmhorst on the line with us right now.
Rick, are you with me?
RICK ELMHORST, BAY NEWS 9 REPORTER: Yes, I am.
I'm going to kind of pick up the story from where you left off. You have got the information that we just got from our sheriff here in Polk County, Florida, Grady Judd. Those two Polk County sheriff's deputies chased the suspect into a wooded area. The sheriff says that numerous shots were fired and that the two deputies were shot at that time by the suspect, as well as the K-9 dog were shot as well. Those two deputies, the sheriff says, have been transported. He is -- to the hospital for treatment of their injuries.
But he's not going to give any information about their injuries right now. Now, there is a massive search going on, as we speak, because, just a little while after the deputies were shot, Lakeland police officers got involved. They tracked this suspect down to a house. About 45 minutes later, the sheriff says that the suspect then fired at the officers, but they were not injured at the time.
The suspect was able to run away. And, since that time, dozens, if not more than 100, law enforcement officers have been involved in a search for the suspect, that they are only describing as a black male with dreadlocks. And several local schools have been locked down as a precaution.
PHILLIPS: And we're told those three schools -- tell me if I'm right, Rick -- Kathleen High, McKeel Academy, and Winston Elementary? Those are the three schools in that area, right?
ELMHORST: Yes, those are the three schools that have been locked down so far.
PHILLIPS: Rick, do we know anything about this suspect?
ELMHORST: The only thing that law enforcement is telling us right now is that the suspect is described as a black male with dreadlocks.
PHILLIPS: So, we don't know if he's got a criminal background or a criminal history?
ELMHORST: Yes, we're not being told that so far.
Now, one of the things that the sheriff did say is -- is that, when the officer pulled the suspect over, and the suspect got out of the car, he wanted to know if he was going to be arrested. So, you know, that kind of gives you an indication that there may be some kind of a special reason for the guy to try to run and actually shoot at these officers.
PHILLIPS: Yes, that's a good point.
You're there at the scene. There are a number of helicopters that are in the air. They have also got tons of boots there on the ground there, trying to find this guy. Do they think that he has moved out of that wooded area and gone...
ELMHORST: At this point, I really can't tell you that.
The information that I think I -- I have given to you so far is pretty much about all that we can give to you right now.
PHILLIPS: All right. What are you doing now, Rick? Are you just sort of standing by, waiting for an update from the sheriff?
ELMHORST: Yes. We're -- we're just kind of standing by, waiting for further information from either the sheriff or the public information officers. And I'm -- I'm going to have to apologize here, but I'm going to have to take off now and actually be on the air for Bay News 9.
PHILLIPS: Go do your thing, Rick. We will keep in touch. Appreciate it -- Rick Elmhorst with Bay News 9, working that story for us out of Lakeland, Florida.
As we get more information, we will let you -- we will let you in on it. The manhunt continues for this armed suspect that opened fire on deputies, injuring two, also shooting at another force of police officers -- three schools on lockdown -- police now searching the residential area outside of the wooded area where they had believed that suspect was hiding -- Don.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Another developing story we're working here, this one coming from Oak Park, Michigan. It's happening -- it's a suburb just outside of Detroit.
A suspect there attempted purse-snatching, and then ran, and then got into a car. Police chased him. Apparently, he jumped over an embankment and caused some injuries there, causing a rollover accident on the interstate, breaking down a fence, going into some areas where they have some radio antennas and what have you.
This suspect is still on the loose -- police there in that area looking for a man. They say he is white, between the ages of 25 and 35, facial hair, wearing a black T-shirt, green sweat pants, baseball cap. That's according to Chief -- the Hazel Park, Michigan, police chief. We spoke to him just moments ago, David Niedermeier -- Niedermeier.
New information coming out of this -- we have been talking about schools on lockdown here in both of these stories. There are several schools on lockdown here, except the difference here, parents are not being allowed to come in and get their kids. We're told -- this is new, fresh information.
Police there tell us that they're being told to hold the kids in the school there, until this suspect is found, until all of this is over. In fact, the wires here quoting this Chief David -- David Niedermeier, and CNN, saying that he told, you know, CNN that officers were on foot, chasing this person and what he did, as far as running over those embankments and what have you -- but children there on lockdown.
And who knows exactly when they will be allowed to go home, possibly not until they find this suspect -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. We will continue to follow both those developing stories out of Michigan and also Florida.
Meanwhile, a loner, a loser -- that's how Colorado authorities are describing the man behind a deadly school standoff. They know his name, but still want to know a lot more.
Reporter Jim Hooley with affiliate KMGH is in the town of Bailey.
JIM HOOLEY, KMGH REPORTER: We now have an I.D. on the gunman. He is 54-year-old Duane Morrison. But police here in Bailey, Colorado, say they really know little -- little about the suspect at this point in time.
They say he had very little criminal history here in Colorado, a couple of minor things. He did not live here in the Bailey area, but they -- they do believe that he perhaps was living out of his jeep here, living in the area, and camping in the area.
And, so, investigators are puzzled. Why did he come into the school and why did he do what he did here yesterday? It all remains a mystery today. At a news conference earlier today, investigators described Morrison as something of a loner. They called him a coward for doing what he did here at the school.
They believe he has no connection whatsoever with the school or any families or students. And they believe that he may have picked this school randomly for his assault.
Investigators say that the gunman entered the school at about 11:40 yesterday morning. He fired shots and took six female students hostage. Throughout the afternoon, he released four of the girls, but he threatened that he would do something at around 4:00 to the others.
So, that is when SWAT team members moved in. Morrison then shot the 16-year-old girl, his victim, and then killed himself.
Just to give you an idea of the very deep impact that all of this has had on this small mountain community of Bailey, Colorado, there is a sign just down the road here on Route 285, Colorado 285, in front of a store. It says "Pray for Emily," the 16-year-old victim, "and pray for Bailey."
The school today is closed. It should reopen, we understand now, come Monday.
Live in Bailey, Colorado, I'm Jim Hooley for CNN.
LEMON: All righty, a classic combination, a tragic outcome. Pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht says that the death of Daniel Smith was the result of three prescription drugs in his system. The son of reality TV star Anna Nicole Smith died September 10. He was visiting his mother in a Bahamas hospital days just after she had given birth to a baby girl. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: He died tragically and I believe quite accidentally as a result of the cumulative effect of three brain depressant drugs, methadone, which is an analgesic, a painkiller; Zoloft, an antidepressant; and Lexapro, an antidepressant.
We knew about Lexapro, Larry, as you will recall from the first battery of tests performed on a specimen submitted, taken during resuscitation at Doctors Hospital, so that came as no surprise.
Methadone and Zoloft come as a big surprise to Anna Nicole, to Howard Stern, to the attorneys, to everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And methadone is usually given to people trying to overcome an addiction to heroin or morphine. Mr. Wecht says no one suggested Daniel had such problems. He also said you would have to be totally negligent to prescribe all three drugs at once.
Later on in the NEWSROOM, we will be talking with Dr. John Abramson, the author of "Overdosed America,' about the dangers posed by prescription drugs.
PHILLIPS: Well, Terrell Owens says it was an allergic reaction, not a suicide attempt, that landed him in a Dallas hospital.
Now he says he is ready to play some football. The Cowboys' star receiver is no stranger to controversy. Some say that he revels in it. His latest turn in the spotlight started with a 911 call Tuesday night. His publicist called paramedics. He said he was unresponsive. Police report said that Owens overdosed on painkillers.
Well, Owens says it was just a reaction from pain pills mixed with his nutritional supplements.
LEMON: Happening right now in the NEWSROOM: deputies shot, schools in lockdown. We are tracking a SWAT situation in Florida this hour.
PHILLIPS: They're designed to make life better, but the wrong combination can kill you. Antidepressants and painkillers, what you need to know about the power of your prescriptions.
LEMON: And Secretary of State (sic) Donald Rumsfeld -- a closer look at this man of war.
You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN, the most trusted name in news.
Now back to the CNN NEWSROOM. PHILLIPS: Mike Brooks, former law enforcement, also former SWAT, joining us, talking about this search for the suspect in Lakeland, Florida.
Just to bring our viewers up to date real quickly, this man was pulled over, a routine traffic stop. He was speeding, actually, got into a conversation with deputies, and, once they went into this wooded area in Lakeland, Florida, he opened fire on these deputies. Now he's still on the loose. Those deputies have been taken to the hospital -- three schools on lockdown.
Where do they take it from here?
MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, yes, he has shot at now two groups of police officers, the initial officers who were chasing him, his backup, shot his K-9 dog also.
Then, they thought they had him behind a house. He came out from behind a house, Lakeland Police, was shot at by this guy, and then ran into the woods again.
You know, with the three schools locked down in the area, and they're keeping the kids from going home, that's -- that is the number one thing they want to make sure, that everybody in that neighborhood is safe. But, you know, they might have to wait until nightfall, Kyra, and -- because they think they had him in this one little wooded area.
So, they might have to wait until nightfall, use the infrared assets that they have on the helicopters, after everything kind of cools down. And, then as you -- you and I were talking about earlier, it will -- it will show the whole outline of someone, as everything starts to cool down, because the 98.6 degrees of a human body, you know, will definitely show up nicely on a -- on a -- on a FLIR device.
PHILLIPS: And, hopefully, he will still be within that area, because it looks like they pretty much have the wooded area contained, but now we have seen some live pictures of officers moving into the residential areas, searching backyards, going through homes, because he was hiding behind a home at one time.
And that is like what you said...
PHILLIPS: ... when he opened fire on the police officers.
And, also, too, there has got to be an issue of his ammunition. At some point, he's got to run out of ammunition. And, at this point, we don't know how many weapons he has, as well, but he jumped out of that car and took off. White T-shirt, black male, dreadlocks, that is all we know at this point.
BROOKS: And, you know, there's also a concern, as people start to come home from work, and they come home to their houses, you know, could he be in one of these houses? So, that's why the officers have to also move into the neighborhoods and patrol the area, to see if there's any homes have been broken into, those kind of things.
And, you know, if -- if people are listening, if you -- if you are on your way home in that area, and you find yourself getting home and you find a window broken, please, don't go in. Call the police, because this man is armed and extremely dangerous, and is not afraid to shoot at the police.
PHILLIPS: And while that manhunt is on, three schools in lockdown, Winston Elementary, Kathleen High, McKeel Academy.
We are told, through the Polk County public school system, that each one of those schools does have a school resource officer, an, in other words, trained police officer, on that campus.
They're with the Polk County Sheriff's Office. They have communications. They're -- they're regular sworn deputies. And I'm sure they are in communications with the people who are doing the search right now, should anything move anywhere near one of the schools where they're assigned.
PHILLIPS: We will stay on top of this story.
Mike Brooks, thanks so much.
BROOKS: Thank you, Kyra.
LEMON: Thousands -- thousands of terrorists killed in Iraq, so says a voice purporting to be the leader of al Qaeda's contingent. Now, the audiotape surfaced today. In it, Abu Hamza al-Muhajir says 4,000 foreign insurgents have paid with their lives waging holy war in Iraq. Apparently, it is the first major statement by Iraq's jihadists quantifying their losses. Al-Muhajir also urged an escalation of violence during Ramadan.
Dozens more bodies found in the past 24 hours in Baghdad, apparent victims of the relentless sectarian warfare. Bombs also target Iraqi police officers and soldiers.
CNN's Arwa Damon is in Baghdad.
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixty more bodies were found in a 24-hour time period in the capital of Baghdad, all believed to be victims of sectarian violence, bearing signs of gruesome torture, blindfolded, with their hands bound.
Many Iraqis right now are saying that they fear being the victims of sectarian violence more than they fear insurgent attacks. Many of them have neighbors that have been victims of sectarian violence. Even family members, at the very least, have heard the gruesome stories.
In Baghdad on Thursday, at least eight explosions went off in a six-hour time period, claiming the lives of at least eight Iraqis and wounding another 50. In one of those attacks that took place in central Baghdad on a main road, a car bomb exploded. As Iraqi police were responding to the scene, a roadside bomb exploded as well -- four Iraqis killed in that attack, two of them police officers, another 38 wounded.
This is a tactic that is frequently used by the insurgency. A car bomb will explode, or a roadside bomb will explode. And, as Iraqi security forces are responding to the scene, as the U.S. military is responding to the scene, another explosion will happen.
Arwa Damon, CNN, Baghdad.
LEMON: Al Qaeda is taking advantage of the war in Iraq -- that's the bottom line of a report prepared for the U.N. Security Council.
The report says the war has provided the terror group with a new generation of recruits and has proven to be an effective training ground for terror attacks elsewhere. On the other hand, the report says the flow of al Qaeda fighters into Iraq appears to have slowed. And it says some terrorists leave Iraq disillusioned, because they find themselves fighting fellow Muslims.
PHILLIPS: President Bush on Capitol Hill, pressing Senate Republicans to approve a White House plan for dealing with terrorism suspects. In a private meeting, the president urged the senators to follow the lead of the House, which approved a bill yesterday.
Afterwards, he spoke with reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just had a really constructive and interesting session with Republican members of the United States Senate. I'm impressed by the leadership here in the Senate. I'm impressed by the caliber of people that serve our country.
I want to congratulate the House for passing a very vital piece of legislation that will give us the tools necessary to protect the American people, and that's the Hamdan legislation. That's the legislation that will give us the capacity to be able to interrogate high-valued detainees and at the same time give us the capacity to try people who -- in our military tribunals.
In speaking to the Senate, I urged them to get this legislation to my desk as soon possible. Senator Frist and Senator McConnell committed to that end.
The American people need to know we're working together to win this war on terror.
Our most important responsibility is to protect the American people from further attack. And we cannot be able to tell the American people we're doing our full job unless we have the tools necessary to do so. And this legislation passed in the House yesterday is a part of making sure that we do have the capacity to protect you.
Our most solemn job is the security of this country. People shouldn't forget there's still an enemy out there that wants to do harm to the United States, and therefore a lot of my discussion with the members of the Senate was to remind them of this solemn responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, if the Senate approves it today, the bill could find its way to the president's desk by the end of the week.
LEMON: In the Colorado school shooting, police looking for clues about the gunman and his motive -- details next in the NEWSROOM.
PHILLIPS: Also, an all-out manhunt for a suspected -- or suspect, rather, considered armed and dangerous, after shooting two deputies. It's happening in Lakeland, Florida. We will have more right after the break.
PHILLIPS: Once again, we are following that developing story out of Lakeland, Florida, a manhunt, massive manhunt going on, for an armed suspect that opened fire on two deputies. They're wounded, opened fire another time on police officers there in Lakeland -- no one injured in that gunfight. Still don't know where he is, how much ammunition, how many weapons he has.
It started when he was speeding, got pulled over, and then he fled police. And that's when the chase began, and he opened fire on the two deputies that were pursuing him -- three schools on lockdown there in Lakeland, Florida.
We're working every detail we can. We will bring it you when we have it.
LEMON: And, Kyra, we're also keeping an eye on Capitol Hill today, where congressmen are grilling current and Hewlett-Packard executives.
Cheryl Casone joins us from the New York Stock Exchange to tell us how they're responding.
CHERYL CASONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, not responding at all. I will tell you that. The House Energy and Commerce Committee is trying to find out who approved the use of pretexting. That's the practice of lying about who you are in order to get someone else's private records. Investigators hired by H.P. used the method to discover who leaked information to the press from a company board meeting -- but the congressmen not getting much help from many of the witnesses, including Ann Baskins, who resigned her post as the company's general counsel just hours before the hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANN BASKINS, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, HEWLETT-PACKARD: Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer, based on the rights and protections guaranteed to me by the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASONE: Two other former H.P. officials, chief ethics officer Hunsaker, global security manager Anthony Gentilucci, also took the Fifth, along with several of the private investigators the company hired to conduct that investigation -- Don.
LEMON: And, Cheryl, what about Patricia Dunn? What did she have to say for herself?
CASONE: Well, Patricia Dunn has largely taken the blame for the leak investigation, up until this point, losing her job as the company's chairman. But she also passed the buck today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICIA DUNN, FORMER CHAIRMAN, HEWLETT-PACKARD: I am neither a lawyer, nor an investigator. And, in this matter, I relied on the expertise of people in whom I had full confidence, based upon their positions with the company and my years of experience in working with them.
I deeply regret that so many people, including me, were badly let down by this reliance. I would like you to know that I was a full subject of this investigation, and I, too, was pretexted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASONE: And, not surprisingly, they are getting blasted by congressmen.
John Dingell, the ranking Democrat on the committee, called H.P.'s investigation -- and this is a quote, guys -- "a fine case study in deceit, dishonesty, improper behavior, and possibly illegal behavior."
Don, even the term Watergate was brought up today in the hearings, believe it or not.
(LAUGHTER) LEMON: Mmm-hmm.
And you're there at the New York Stock Exchange. The obvious question is, how are those H.P. shares doing on Wall Street today?
CASONE: Well, right now, H.P. shares are actually up about a -- about a half-a-percent or so. They have actually remained remarkably stable throughout the entire scandal. In fact, the stock is higher now than it was a month ago, before the story broke.
Overall, though, stocks have turned higher. And the Dow is edging closer once again to its all-time closing high of 11723. Right now, the blue-chip index is gaining 22 points, 11712. We are 11 points away. The Nasdaq composite right now is gaining a fraction of a percent as well.
Well, that is the latest from Wall Street.
Don, I am going to send it back to you.
LEMON: All right, Cheryl, thank you very much.
PHILLIPS: Get straight to Carol Lin, working a developing story out of Montgomery, Alabama; is that right, Carol?
CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Montgomery, Alabama -- affiliate WSFA reporting that a Montgomery police officer has been shot in downtown Montgomery.
It happened -- if you're familiar with the area -- on Decatur Street. Police have arrested a suspect. But schools are all on lockdown at this hour, Booker T. Washington Junior High, Highland Gardens, and Chisholm Elementary Schools all locked down at this hour.
So, this is a developing story. But it appears someone is under arrest. This officer has been taken to Jackson Hospital. And if we have any more details, Kyra, we will bring them to you.
PHILLIPS: All right. Great. We will check in.
Also, we're still following that manhunt for the shooter in Lakeland, Florida. He already fired upon two deputies. They have been hospitalized. He is now on the loose -- three schools on lockdown. We will bring you as much information as quick as possible as soon as we get it -- more after the break.
PHILLIPS: Massive manhunt going on right now for that shooter in Lakeland, Florida.
He opened fire on two deputies, injuring them, sent them to the hospital. Now three schools are on lockdown. And you have got police, deputies -- SWAT team is already there -- K-9 and also helicopters searching for this man, described as a black male, white T-shirt, dreadlocks. That is all we know at this point. Donna Wood, with the Polk County Sheriff's Department, once again with us on the phone. She's at the scene.
Donna, any new developments?
DONNA WOOD, POLK COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: You know, honestly, Kyra, you pretty well summed it up. We are still in the middle of a very active investigation and we are still encouraging the community to stay out of the area if at all possible. I mean, we're not letting anybody in the area off of Tenth Street and the Kathleen area and West Lakeland. And we're asking for the media's assistance in letting them that know we are trying to continue this very active investigation.
And, yes, we are looking for a suspect who has been described as a black male with dread locks, wearing a white t-shirt. He did fire several rounds at deputies, at two deputies earlier, after an 11:45 a.m. traffic stop, where one deputy sheriff was running radar, pulling his vehicle over for speeding on Wabash Avenue and Tenth Street. A second deputy, part of a K-9 team, assisted in the traffic stop.
The suspect provided a false I.D. and, at some point, that's when the struggle began, several rounds were fired. The deputies ran into the wooded area after the suspect, and both deputies and canine were shot during the exchange. The deputy have been transferred to Lakewood Regional Medical, and of course, this is an ongoing investigation and we are still looking for the suspect.
PHILLIPS: Are those deputies OK, Donna?
WOOD: I don't have an update on their medical condition right now, Kyra. I mean, obviously, we are keeping our fingers crossed for positive news.
PHILLIPS: OK, and do we know anything else about this suspect? Do we have a name? Do we know his history? Were we able to run plates?
WOOD: No, ma'am, not at this time. That's all we have right now that I can confirm.
PHILLIPS: All right. Three schools on lockdown. Winston Elementary, Kathleen High, McKeel (ph) Academy. What are you telling parents right now? Come to the schools or no?
WOOD: No, ma'am. In fact, quite honestly, I have not been advised what the school board or what the schools have made decisions. They're going to be making the decisions with the deputies. I'm at the scene and, obviously, we're trying to make sure that we see people out of this particular area.
PHILLIPS: Donna Wood, Polk County Sheriff's Department.
I know it's a busy day for you. Thanks, Donna.
As we get more information, of course, we will update the viewers. LEMON: Absolutely.
And a story that brought lockdown to a number of schools yesterday, a loner, a coward, the picture authorities are painting of Dwayne Morrison, identified as the gunman who burst into a Colorado classroom and held police at bay for hours. When it was over, he was dead.
Police say 16 year-old Emily Keyes (ph) was shot as she tried to get away when the SWAT team entered. She died at the hospital. Her friends, her community are heartbroken and angry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF FRED WEGENER, PARK COUNTY, COLORADO: As you have alluded to, we have confirmed he did traumatize and assault our children. This was the information that was being fed to me from the SWAT team. This is why I made the decision I did. We had to go try and save them. You know, looking at what has happened, and I know we talked about the Columbine connection seven years ago, this is something that has changed my school, changed my community. My small county is gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And the very emotional sheriff says, Morrison's motive is still a mystery and he won't speculate on how the gunman was able to get into a normally locked school. Classes have been canceled for the rest of the week, but crisis counselors are there to help out.
PHILLIPS: Dozens of bodies all showing signs of torture. Baghdad police have found at least 60 in the past 24 hours, apparently the latest victims of the country's sectarian bloodshed.
Also today, explosions killed at least seven people in Baghdad, three of them police officers and two Iraqi soldiers. In one instance, police responding to a car bomb explosion became the target of a follow-up blast.
Now, he was the youngest ever secretary of defense. He is now the oldest ever secretary of defense. And if he's still at the Pentagon after New Year's Day, well Donald Rumsfeld will be the longest serving secretary of defense in American history. He bears the weight and catches almost all of the flak.
The war on terror, the war in Iraq, who would want the job? And what keeps Rumsfeld at it for so long? CNN special correspondent Frank Sesno went to find out for himself.
FRANK SESNO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even before Tora Bora, President Bush told Rumsfeld to have his generals start looking at Iraq. Rumsfeld had a long history with the place, as Reagan's envoy, he went there, shook Saddam's hand when Saddam was at war with Iran, America's archenemy. But after Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, and the first Gulf War, Rumsfeld signed on to a new line of neoconservative thought that America should actively promote democracy in Iraq and oust Saddam Hussein.
At the end of 2001, Rumsfeld ordered Tommy Franks to throw out the existing Iraq war plan, which called for more than 400,000 troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It didn't reflect any of the lessons from Afghanistan, that it didn't reflect the current state of affairs in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESNO: Rumsfeld was adamant, leaning hard on General Tommy franks, who was putting together the war plan.
THOMAS RICKS, WASHINGTON POST MILITARY CORRESPONDENT: There was quite a lot of friction. Fairly harsh tone. Franks would fly up to Washington and show it to him and Rumsfeld would say, fewer troops, faster, cut it down, pare it down.
SESNO: Rumsfeld was thinking transformation and asking tough questions.
GEN. JACK KEANE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: The question sort of goes like this: listen, Saddam Hussein's army today is half the size it used to be. Why do we have to attack the same size force we did back then? Isn't it reasonable to do with less? Well, that's a very good question and it deserves to be asked.
SESNO: The U.S. would attack with fewer than 150,000 troops, though more were available, if needed. Rumsfeld's vision had prevailed. It was about to be tested again, but on a very different battlefield.
PHILLIPS: Frank Sesno joins us now live.
A lot of tension with his generals, right now?
SESNO: A lot of tension with his generals certainly back then. Into Afghanistan and through Iraq, Rumsfeld was constantly pushing fewer troops, do it differently, use technology, work with the Northern Alliance, whatever it takes. He wanted them in there faster and he wanted fewer troops.
There was a lot of tension with the troops. He and Franks were at one another's throat at times.
PHILLIPS: I know you challenged him with a lot of questions about the conditions in Iraq now, and just the after effects. Did he, in any way, say this might have been a mistake? SESNO: Never, never. You'll never get that out of Donald Rumsfeld, not behind the scenes, not in front of a camera. Here is what he said. He said, it was not appreciated, the strength of the insurgency that they would encounter.
Now that, by itself, I think that is a significant acknowledgment from him, because this is not a guy who second guesses, it's not a guy who wants to look back. And not only Rumsfeld, but some of the others we talked to indicated that this insurgency, that they're into now and that they're stuck with was not on their radar.
And yet, he asked about it. He actually wrote this memo -- he claims, we haven't got it, we asked for it, they won't give it to us, but I believe it exists -- laying out a bunch of what if scenarios. Insurgency and resistance was one of them.
PHILLIPS: So it was a what if?
SESNO: So why wasn't it anticipated?
PHILLIPS: And I think that's what a lot of people are asking, the prewar plan from the air campaign, Shock and Awe, going in, taking down the statue of Saddam Hussein in Baghdad.
All of that seemed so well-planned, and it was executed very well. Then, all of a sudden, you started to see this rise in insurgency and these deaths and these roadside bombs, and you wonder, here's the U.S. military, you would think that they would just have everything in order when you invade a country.
SESNO: One of the most remarkable things, and probably the point of greatest controversy, is what's known as Phase 4, that is, the reconstruction of Iraq. And if, in fact, they did a great job with Phases 1 through 3, the actual invasion, the military operation. Phase 4 was the least well tended to, they didn't really seriously get down to that until two months or so before invasion itself even though they'd been working on the invasion for a year and a half.
And that's the question for Rumsfeld. Here's this guy, he's a manager, he's been a CEO, he's been a politician, he was Defense Secretary before,and the question that echoes is, why?
The answer is they just they didn't think they were going to encounter this. They laid out the contingencies, but, apparently, for a variety of reasons, mistake, miscalculation, that one was not on the radar where it should have been.
PHILLIPS: Now he's quite an interesting character.
SESNO: He is.
PHILLIPS: You go into his office, he doesn't sit behind his desk. He stands.
SESNO: He stands. The guy is amazing. He is 74 years old. He says he gets up at, you know, 5:00, 6:00 in the morning. He is in the office at 7:00, there for 12 hours. He stands at this chest-high desk all day long, still plays squash.
He is a very competitive person. It can drive people in a meeting crazy. He fires questions at a furious pace, that's how he challenges people, learns from them, some people say that's how he intimidates the people around him.
And that is the controversy about Rumsfeld. One of the historians we talked to, said he's the perfect historical character because he lives at a time of crisis, he is shaping the future, he's done some brilliant things, but he has made some bone-headed dumb mistakes as well. They'll be studying him for years.
PHILLIPS: Well, he's going down in history for this war, that's for sure.
SESNO: That's the point. He came in wanting to transform the military, saying he's fighting this war on terrorism. Right now, what's going to define Donald Rumsfeld, if you freeze this in time right now -- time doesn't freeze, we all know that -- but if you were to freeze time right now, it's the war in Iraq.
PHILLIPS: Frank Sesno, look forward to the entire report.
SESNO: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Appreciate you talking with us.
SESNO: Fascinating time.
PHILLIPS: Well this weekend you can see CNN Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld why he says the war is not a mistake in the exclusively interview with our Frank Sesno, candid comments. You can watch it "Rumsfeld, Man of War," CNN Saturday and Sunday evenings, 8:00 Eastern.
LEMON: Suicide attempt? T.O. says no.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRELL OWENS, PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL PLAYER: I'm not depressed by any means. You know? I think I'm very happy to be here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: His side of the story straight ahead from the CNN NEWSROOM.
LEMON: Plus, a pill for this, a pill for that. Are we improving our health or are we risking it? Up next, THE NEWSROOM talks to a doctor who worries that too much medicine is bad medicine.
PHILLIPS: And we're watching developments in Lakeland, Florida, the search for a suspect who allegedly shot two sheriffs deputies. Live coverage straight from the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF GRADY JUDD, POLK COUNTY POLICE: Listen to me, folks. We will find him. We will bring him to justice, the sooner, the better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Sheriff Grady Judd quite confident they are going to find their man. The man we're talking about is accused of shooting two sheriff deputies, now on the loose, firing back also at the police force there out of Lakeland, Florida. Three schools on lockdown. Police searching this wooded area. It started with a routine traffic stop. He was actually speeding. The next thing you know he was in a gunfight with deputies. Now he's on the loose. We're on top of it.
LEMON: Well Terrell Owens says it was an allergic reaction not a suicide attempt that landed him in a Dallas hospital. Now he says he is ready to play some football. The Cowboy's star receiver is no stranger to controversy. Some say he revels in it. His latest turn in the spotlight started with a 9-11 call Tuesday night. His publicist called paramedics. She said he was unresponsive. A police report said Owens overdosed on pain pills.
Owens says it was just a reaction from pain pills, mixed with his nutritional supplements. One more note on that Owens episode, earlier today the head of the Dallas police department, the Union rather, demanded an apology from Terrell Owens and his publicist. Senior corporal Glenn White (ph) is angry that Owens and his publicist have disrupted, or disputed rather, the police report that said Owens had tried to commit suicide. Officer White says the officers did their job well. He says the police are being put under a microscope by what he called, quote, some fancy little football person. That was a quote from him separately.
They might have helped Daniel Smith, but taken together, they killed him. Three prescription drugs were found in the son of Anna Nicole Smith during an autopsy conducted by pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. He spoke last night with CNN's Larry King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: He died tragically, and I believe quite accidentally, as a result of the accumulative effect of three brain depressant drugs, methadone, which is an analgesic, a painkiller. Zoloft, an antidepressant and Lexapro, an antidepressant. We knew about Lexapro, Larry, as you will recall, from the first battery of tests performed on a specimen submitted, taken during resuscitation at Doctors Hospital. So that came as no surprise. Methadone and Zoloft come as a big surprise to Anna Nicole, to Howard Stern, to the attorneys, to everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And that, in a nutshell, is a problem that many average Americans could be facing right now. In his book "Over Dosed America," Dr. John Abramson worries about too many drugs, too little supervision. He joins me from Watertown, Massachusetts with more. And as I understand, it seems like one of these drugs can be very dangerous, but together, two of them, even three of them can be deadly?
DR. JOHN ABRAMSON, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: That's exactly right, Don. I think we've got an attitude in the United States now that ordinary problems in living are medical problems that should be treated with drugs. We forget that if prescription drugs are powerful enough to help our symptoms, they are also powerful enough to create side effects and sometimes dangerous and even lethal side effects.
LEMON: Do you feel that we're overdosing on antidepressants? Because a lot of people are on these drugs. We've been talking about Lexapro. We've been talking about Zoloft. Zoloft, especially, has been in the news for causing especially teenagers maybe to act erratically. Do you think that we are over-prescribed? What's your advice to parents, especially for young people?
ABRAMSON: Well for young people, Don, it's important to remember that the scientific evidence shows these that kind of antidepressants are not effective for young people and actually increase the risk of suicidal behavior. So my advice to parents is if kids aren't doing well, go to your primary care doctor. Try to figure out what it is about the child's life that's not in sync. Is it something that's originating in the family? Is it something at school or with friends? Most of these problems are problems in living and, yet, because we have so much drug advertisement and prescription drugs have been turned into such a consumer item, we immediately turn to these very powerful medicines that sometimes are the right solution, but often distract us from the real problems that are going on.
LEMON: Yes, and Daniel Smith, we want to say, not a suicide there. Apparently it was a combination of those three drugs. But we are getting reports, and we heard from Howard K. Stern the other night. He is saying that he was suffering from depression and he was on at least one of these medications, but Zoloft and then possibly Methadone were a surprise to his mother. Tell us about how might one, especially at his age, if his mother doesn't know about it, come across these medications?
ABRAMSON: Well certainly he was 20-years- old. He was old enough to go to a doctor and get medications on his own. He may have been going to more than one doctor and there may not have been a captain of the ship. So I think one of the really important lessons here Don is that if you are having symptoms, medical symptoms, problems in living, go to your doctor, hopefully your primary care doctor, who understands who you are and what your family is about and make sure that one doctor understands all of the medicine you're taking.
LEMON: Yes and we have been told that, of course, it would be totally negligent to prescribe all three of these drugs. A doctor would not do that.
I want to talk to you real quickly, real quickly about, we've been hearing about Terrell Owens. And Terrell Owens said that he was a combination of painkillers and, of course, natural supplements. It says here that unintended prescriptions, that's what we're hearing prescription painkillers, the deaths from those rose 91 percent from 1999 to 2002. Of course Terrell Owens telling us yesterday, and I guess reiterating it today, that it was not a suicide attempt. A combination of this painkiller and natural supplements, can it cause the type of reaction that Terrell Owens had?
ABRAMSON: Don, it sure can and it may be just the painkiller alone. For many years, we doctors under treated pain. We had the attitude that we didn't want to give too much medicine because we would turn people into drug dependent people. Then we realized that no, it's our job to treat suffering. Now we treat pain liberally. Unfortunately I think sometimes we overdo it. We make too much drugs available and people who are taking pain pills sometimes lose perspective. If the pain pills are strong enough to treat the pain, they're strong enough to create a disordered thinking, create some confusion. Probably what happened with T.O. is that he was taking the pain pills appropriately and then lost perspective because of the effect of the pain pill and then too many.
LEMON: All right. Everything in moderation, of course.
LEMON: You have to be careful.
LEMON: "Overdosed in America," that is Dr. John Abramsons' book. We thank you for joining us this afternoon.
ABRAMSON: Pleasure to be with you. Thank you so much.
PHILLIPS: Straight to THE NEWSROOM, Carol Lin working another developing story for us. What is going on, Carol?
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Kyra, take a look at some of the pictures that came into the CNN Center a short time ago. There was a rescue going on in what is known as the L.A. River, out there in Los Angeles. This is in the north Hollywood area near Vineland. You're looking at the helicopter there, but apparently a 40-year-old man fell about 20 to 25 feet down the concrete embankment of the L.A. River.
This is the main -- it's sort of part of the water aqueduct system in Los Angeles and it carries usually treated sewage and rain water down to Long Beach but, apparently this man somehow fell down the concrete embankment. He suffered injuries to his face, his hip, and his right leg. He might have also broken his collar bone. So the helicopter rescue team was sent in. He has been strapped in. We did see, a short time ago, that they were able to lift him up to the helicopter and I'm sure he's on the way to the hospital right now.
PHILLIPS: All right Carol Lin. Thanks so much, working that developing story out of southern California, appreciate it.
We're are also watching developments in Lakeland, Florida. The search for a suspect who allegedly shot two sheriff deputies. Live coverage straight from THE NEWSROOM.
LEMON: And we're watching the DOW as it nears a record high. The Closing Bell is just a few moments away. We're live from New York Stock Exchange.
PHILLIPS: All right, we are going to update you on the developing story out of Lakeland, Florida. Police still searching for an armed suspect after he opened fire on two deputies. It happened after he was speeding. Police pulled him over and he fled. They chased him. He opened fire. Two of those deputies were hurt. They are in the hospital. A canine was shot as well. S.W.A.T. team, as you can see here from the earlier tape, was brought in. They were clearing this area here in a neighborhood. He is still on the loose. Three schools on lockdown. We're working the story for you.
LEMON: Now to another developing story in California. The massive day fire keeps burning and growing and threatening homes. Some people living in remote parts of Ventura County have evacuated. Many are staying tough though to try to save their homes as the winds kick up again. The wildfire a has charred nearly 160 acres since it began three weeks ago. Fire crews say it could be December before it is all out.
Time now to check in with our very own CNN's Wolf Blitzer.
PHILLIPS: He's standing by in THE SIT ROOM to tell us what's coming up at the top of the hour. Hey Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hi guys, thanks very much. Bob Woodward, he's got a new bombshell book. It's already being described that way. He is supposedly accusing the White House of not telling the truth about Iraq and he says the president is relying on Henry Kissinger for advice. We're going to have a first look.
Also, on the frontlines, the war through the eyes of the Marines facing a fierce battle on the streets of Ramadi.
And Dog Eat Dog ads. Politicians turning to puppies with (INAUDIBLE) with voters.
And selling another book. This time Pakistan's president continuing to hock his wares. All that coming up, guys, right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
LEMON: All right Wolf, thank you very much.
We're also watching the DOW as it nears a record high. The closing bell when we come back.
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