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Tracing Steps of Schoolhouse Killer; School Shootings; 'Washington Times' Calls for Dennis Hastert to Resign as Speaker; Back to Darfur

Aired October 03, 2006 - 11:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Spend a second hour in the NEWSROOM this morning and stay informed, everybody.
I'm Heidi Collins. Good morning.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert under fire from conservatives. A prominent newspaper calls for him to quit his leadership post over the Capitol Hill e-mail scandal.

COLLINS: Tracing the steps of a schoolhouse killer. Pennsylvania police look for a motive after children are gunned down execution style.

HARRIS: And fresh spinach making a return to the produce aisle. But is anybody buying the safety assurances on this Tuesday, the 3rd of October?

You're in the NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: Trying to explain the unexplainable. That's what's happening today in the aftermath of that deadly school shooting in Pennsylvania's Amish country. The state police commissioner says he hopes to shed more light on the gunman's motive. Police say he opened fire on a group of schoolgirls before killing himself.

Our Jason Carroll is live now with the very latest.

And Jason, terrible news in the morning. We find out about a fifth victim who was taken off life support with her parents at her side.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Another sad chapter for the people out here. A lot of them looking for answers. We do know that police are looking for answers as well. They are still working on a motive.

They know that Charles Roberts, 32 years old, a truck driver, had been planning this attack for two, possibly even three days. They know that he bought some of the materials that he used in the attack just a few days ago. We do know that as well.

We also know that he had a grudge, a grudge that he had been holding for 20 years. He wanted to exact his revenge on young girls for some reason. And he found the place to exact his revenge here at this Amish schoolhouse.

He did it yesterday. He broke into a single-room schoolhouse filled with young girls and young boys. Told the boys they could leave, held the girls there when he broke in.

He had a semiautomatic weapon, a handgun, a shotgun. He also had a stun gun, 600 rounds of ammunition. He himself, Roberts, he is not Amish. Police say that he simply targeted this place because it was convenient.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER JEFFREY MILLER, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: We don't believe that there's any link that we've been able to uncover that would -- that would show that he had some animus toward the Amish community. We don't believe that was the case at all.

We believe that this was a target of opportunity. That he -- he, living in the community, knew where it was. It was a one-room schoolhouse. I believe he felt he could get in there pretty easily and secure it from a defensive posture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: Just before the shooting, Roberts did call his wife, using his cell phone. He didn't tell her where he was. He simply said he couldn't take it anymore and that he wasn't coming home again.

He also left behind several notes, notes to his wife, notes to his children. Police are going to be looking through those notes hoping that they can get some sort of clue, some more information about this undisclosed motive, this grudge that he held for such a long period of time -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Jason, I don't mean to be pessimistic, but I just -- at this point I wonder how that would help at this point, especially for the families as they move forward and start to plan funerals.

CARROLL: That's a good point. I don't know if it will. You know, these guys out here, these state troopers, have a job to do. You know, as difficult as it is for them, they've got a job to do, they've got to follow through.

And while they do that, then you've got the Amish community here that will do its job in terms of trying to heal and trying to -- trying to find some sort of understanding through all this -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Jason Carroll, thanks so much for the latest on that.

HARRIS: New details now about the suspect in Friday's shooting at a Wisconsin high school. A judge has set bail for Eric Hainstock at $750,000. The 15-year-old is charged with killing the school's principal. Court records show the teen came to investigators' attention before as an alleged victim. Hainstock's father was charged with felony child abuse five years ago. He pleaded no contest to misdemeanor battery. The charge was later dismissed as part of a plea agreement.

And listen to this. Court records also show the teen has a medical condition that affects behavior. But he was not receiving treatment because his family could not afford medication or counseling.

Yesterday's deadly school shooting in Pennsylvania is the third in a week, putting parents and teachers everywhere on alert. What's behind the violence? And what can be done to protect students?

CNN's Dan Lothian talks to the experts.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The deadly trail of recent school shootings stretches from Colorado to Wisconsin, and now rural Pennsylvania.

KENNETH TRUMP, NATIONAL SCHOOL SAFETY SEC. SVCS.: The common refrain we hear time and time again is, "We never thought it could happen here." If there's one lesson we've learned from Columbine, it's that we can't have that "it can't happen here" mentality.

LOTHIAN: Ken Trump and the National School Safety and Security Services began tracking cases after the 1999 rampage at Columbine High School, where 15 people died. Since then, by his count, there have been 219 deaths, not including Monday's attack.

TRUMP: The good news is schools have done a much better job since Columbine working on preventing incidents and improving their emergency preparedness measures.

LOTHIAN: But he says there's no way to make a campus 100 percent safe. School shootings have taken place for decades.

Before Columbine, there was Pearl, Mississippi. Two students killed. Seven wounded.

And Jonesboro, Arkansas. Four students and one teacher killed.

What's behind the violence? Boston College sociologist Joseph Tecce says sometimes it's revenge.

PROF. JOSEPH TECCE, BOSTON COLLEGE: There's a certain vendetta involved. There's a certain payback. "I was treated badly in school and, boy, I'm going to get back with those kids because the bully got me and now I'm going to get them."

LOTHIAN: And the fact that some of these shootings seem to occur in some kind of serial order leads Tecce and other experts to suspect copycats. TECCE: Maybe the murderer or the killer says, "Wow, this other guy got a lot of publicity on this and he nailed a couple of kids. I think I'll try the same technique, because it worked for him and it may work for me. I think I'll get my vengeance the same way as he did."

LOTHIAN: Besides the deadly consequences, attacks can often leave students feeling vulnerable. But experts say they should not be paralyzed by fear.

TECCE: Parents can tell their children these are unusual circumstances, they don't happen every day. Don't go to school expecting it to happen. Go to school zeroing in on your studies.

LOTHIAN: At the same time, there's a growing effort to have schools prepare and practice. Much like they would for a weather emergency drill.

TRUMP: Very often after an emergency, parents want to focus on physical, tangible measures such as security cameras, metal detectors and armed officers. It's the training alertness and preparedness of staff and students that really makes a difference on a day-to-day basis.

LOTHIAN (on camera): The idea is to jolt school officials out of a sense of complacency so they'll be just as prepared to protect their students as they are to educate them.

Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: And again, keep it right here in the NEWSROOM for the latest on the school shooting investigation. The Pennsylvania State police commissioner is holding a news conference. That's scheduled for noon Eastern. And we will bring it to you live, right here on CNN.

COLLINS: One of the most conservative voices in Washington echoing loud and clear on Capitol Hill today. "The Washington Times" calling for House Speaker Dennis Hastert to resign his leadership position.

Its editorial board says the Republican did a poor job investigating the Capitol e-mail scandal. It forced Florida congressman Mark Foley to resign after sexually graphic computer message came to light.

Just five weeks before midterm elections now, the paper says, "Mr. Hastert has forfeited the confidence of the public and his party."

Let's go straight to Capitol Hill and CNN Congressional Correspondent Andrea Koppel.

Tough words there, Andrea. ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Tough words not just from "The Washington Times," Heidi, but also from the majority leader in the House, John Boehner, who has stood side by side with Speaker Hastert and with Roy Blunt, who is the majority whip, in this situation since it broke last Friday, but now is creating daylight between himself and Speaker Hastert as the person who he says is leading the show, effectively, and should have taken faster action when he first learned the news.

And this comment was made in a radio interview this morning that the majority leader had with a Cincinnati radio station. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R), MAJORITY LEADER: I believe I talked to the speaker and he told me it had been taken care of. And in my position, it's in his corner. It's his responsibility. The clerk of the House who runs the page program, the Page Board, all report to the speaker, and I believe that it had been dealt with.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KOPPEL: This is just another indication, Heidi, as to how much pressure is building on House Republicans. The leadership, as well as rank and file, as they face those November 7th elections, these were already going to be tight elections before the story about Congressman Foley's experiences with these former pages burst into the news at the end of last week.

Then you also, of course, had the news about the national intelligence estimate, not necessarily favorably disposed to what the White House would have liked to have said about Iraq and the war on terror. And then, of course, you had Bob Woodward's book, again, getting into the news.

So this is the third story, really, that has rocked the Republican Party. And you have seen just in the actions of House Speaker Dennis Hastert in the last few days how concerned is he, personally, Heidi. He came back into town on Sunday evening so he could have meetings behind closed doors instead of being out on the campaign trail trying to help these House Republicans hold on to their seats.

We also know my colleague Dana Bash has spoken to two congressional sources who told her that Congressman John Shadegg, who is a Republican of Arizona and a close ally of Speaker Hastert, is now kind of burning up the phone lines across the country, canvassing the Republican caucus, trying to get as many members as possible to sign on to a letter of support for Dennis Hastert.

Heidi, nobody is explicitly, with the exception of "The Washington Times" editorial, calling for him to resign his speakership, but you can see there are beginnings of cracks within the leadership -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Yes. And his office has said, no, they won't do that. So we'll have to watch how it all plays out, certainly.

Andrea Koppel, thanks so much.

HARRIS: Well, the Capitol scandal putting Louisiana Congressman Rodney Alexander in the spotlight today. He sponsored a former page who received what's described as inappropriate e-mails from Foley.

The Republican lawmaker spoke in an exclusive interview with CNN's Sean Callebs. Sean is with us now from Monroe, Louisiana.

And Sean, good to see you again.

Majority Leader Boehner is saying the speaker needed to do more. And my -- I guess the congressman is standing in support of the speaker.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. No crack in his support for Speaker Hastert.

We spoke with him last night. He says that the speaker is, in his words, a great man, he is a fine gentleman. And he's disappointed to see the way it is unfolding right now. He remains firmly in Hastert's corner.

We also should point out, it's pretty interesting, too, that just a couple of years ago, Rodney Alexander was a Democrat. But he changed parties back in 2004. He says he has heard some criticism up to now -- Alexander saying some Democrats have said, "Why didn't you bring these concerns to the Democrats?" Well, in his words, "The Democrats haven't listened to me for the past two years. So that's one reason I didn't speak with them."

But the big focus from Alexander is on the future of this young page, this now 17-year-old boy, and the page's family. Alexander says that he and the system had just simply let the family and the page down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RODNEY ALEXANDER (R), LOUISIANA: Again, my job was to do what I could to protect the young man and his parents' interests. And I failed, and I apologize for that.

The parents have had a horrible week. The young man is beginning to get some threats. The media has been aggressively seeking his conversation at school, his home. And that's the most disturbing thing.

It's just simply not fair. The young man has gotten caught up in something that -- and he's getting bruised for something that he should not be a part of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CALLEBS: It's interesting, too, that Alexander says that this young man has been receiving threatening e-mails. But Alexander did not specifically say if they are from individuals or if they were from groups.

And he also breaks down a timeline like this: he knew about these e-mails from Foley to the page 11 months ago, back in mid-November. That is when a reporter first came to him. He took his concerns, he says, to the speaker's office. Not the speaker himself, but the speaker's office.

And then two months later, he had another question from a journalist and this time he went to Tom Reynolds, who, of course, is the National Republican Congressional Committee chairman. So that is the way the timeline played out -- Tony.

HARRIS: All right, Sean. We've been kicking this around a little bit this morning between the two of us here. When Foley was asked to stop with the contact with the 16-year-old, did he stop?

CALLEBS: This is what we have from Alexander. He says that the clerk went and spoke with Foley and said the family wanted this to stop. That all electronic communication to this page should stop.

At that point we know of no further discussions that Alexander was ever involved in with this former page. So by all indications we're getting from Alexander, the communication did stop.

We haven't been able to talk to him specifically about that. We do know that it was when the page left Washington, came back down to Louisiana. It was after Hurricane Katrina, long after the teenager had left Louisiana he was getting the e-mails from Foley. So this is something that played out over some time and certainly caused the family so much concern...

HARRIS: Got you.

CALLEBS: ... that a p 50-year-old single man from Congress would be e-mailing this young boy.

HARRIS: Sean Callebs for us.

Sean, appreciate it. Thank you.

COLLINS: I want to remind you about a news conference that's coming up directly at noon. We'll be hearing from police commissioner Jeffrey Miller about the shooting that happened in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, the Amish community there. Obviously beside themselves as a fifth victim died overnight, a little 7-year-old girl.

We will bring you the latest on that, hopefully some more details about the shooter himself, live, right here on CNN.

You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: There's the man.

COLLINS: There he is, Chad Myers. (WEATHER REPORT)

CNN's Jeff Koinange goes back to Darfur and finds the crisis even worse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN AFRICA CORRESPONDENT (voice over): All the people -- you're seeing all the people are hungry. The last time these people were given food aid was a month, and the supplies have nearly run out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Barely surviving in the camps. We'll have the story coming up in the NEWSROOM.

HARRIS: And once again, keep it here in the NEWSROOM for the latest on the school shooting investigation. The Pennsylvania State police commissioner holding a news conference noon Eastern. We will, of course, bring it to you live right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: It is not an easy story, the crisis in Darfur. After three years, it is finally on the world's radar. But is it on the global agenda?

HARRIS: The refugees see little evidence that anyone cares.

Africa Correspondent Jeff Koinange has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): North Darfur. It's been two years since I have been here and it's worse now. A lot worse.

A daily nightmare here for the tens of thousands of displaced people living in camps Abu Chute (ph), just outside the town of El Fasher. Lives wrecked by a civil war waging for the better part of three years between government troops and rebel forces for control of the country's rich oil well.

Twenty-five-year-old Mucca Usman (ph) recently became a statistic, one of tens of thousands of women raped by bandits as she ventured out to look for firewood outside this camp. Now she is determined to fight back in the only way she can, building a wall of mud to protect herself and her shack made of sticks and plastic paper.

Being here is like a punishment. Life is a punishment is all she can say. Aid agencies say half these women will be raped while here. Their biggest fear, they tell me, is the Arab militia known locally as the Janjaweed, which has been raping, looting, pillaging and destroying for three years. The government denies it, but human rights groups charge that Sudan sponsored the Janjaweed to maintain its control of the nation's oil money.

(on camera): You are telling, Janjaweed also here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

KOINANGE (voice-over): All the people. You're saying all the people are hungry. The last time these people were given food aid was a month, and the supplies have nearly run out.

The local clinic here can hardly begin to address the growing malnutrition here.

He says, I'm tired. I'm tired. We need more doctors here.

Chris Czerwinski is head of the World Food Program in north Darfur which helps feed more than 2.5 million people here every month.

CHRIS CZERWINSKI, WORLD FOOD PROGRAM: Well, it's as if everything is being taken away from you. You have no more home. You have no more land. You are abandoned here amongst all these other people that are in the same conditions. It's not very clean. It's hot. It's full of sand. And they can't be independent anymore.

KOINANGE: And that is just how Solomon Haroud Muhammad (ph) feels, helpless, hopeless and abandoned. There won't be another food delivery here for several weeks. All his wife can do is pound the last of the grain to feed her family of 11.

The world is suddenly beginning to pay more attention to this tiny corner of Africa's largest nation, but there has been no impact yet. For now, we are just seeing more disease, malnutrition, and death.

Jeff Koinange, CNN, El Fasher in North Darfur.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Anderson Cooper is reporting from Africa all this week on the continent's humanitarian crisis. Tune in tonight at 10:00 Eastern, only on CNN, the most trusted name in news.

ANNOUNCER: Live in the CNN NEWSROOM, Tony Harris and Heidi Collins.

HARRIS: And just another reminder to keep it right here in the NEWSROOM for the latest on the school shooting investigation. The Pennsylvania State police commissioner is holding a news conference at noon Eastern, and we will, of course, bring it to you right here live on CNN.

COLLINS: New nuclear concerns radiating from the east, all the way to the west wing. Pyongyang says it is planning to conduct a nuclear test. U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton calling it a threat to international peace and security.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: I don't know what the rationale in Pyongyang is, but I think it is a test of the Security Council. I think it's a test of how the council responds. That's why I intend to raise it at the first available meeting we're going to have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Let's get the latest now from Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr.

Another bold move here, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, there is indeed, Heidi. There may well be a very good reason why within minutes of North Korea making the announcement that it was going to conduct a nuclear test at some date in the future there was a very significant reaction from Washington, Moscow, London and at the United Nations. And one of the reasons is this: CNN has learned that within the last days and weeks, U.S. intelligence has noticed activity, new activity at a suspected North Korean test site.

So when this announcement came from Pyongyang that they intended to conduct a test, this has really caught people's attention in a very significant manner.

Now, all of the sources we've spoken to do caution, however, it's very difficult to make any assessment about what North Korea really might be up to. They have a lot of expertise in trying to deceive intelligence services around the world. This may well be a ploy by North Korea to press a diplomatic maneuver in the six-party talks.

But nonetheless, intelligence services have noticed through their overhead assets, read that to be satellites, that there has been activity at a suspected test site. So they now are watching very carefully -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Barbara, what could it mean militarily if anything at this point? I mean, the military always working on contingency plans.

STARR: Well, they do. Now President Bush, of course, has made it very clear that the U.S. and other allies intend to pursue diplomatic initiatives against North Korea. No indication that they would change strategy at this point.

But clearly, Heidi, if North Korea were to conduct a nuclear test, it would demonstrate to the world once and for all that they have that nuclear capability. It's always been suspected, but there's never been to the best of anyone's knowledge a test of it, and that could change the facts on the table significantly -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Certainly. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon this morning. Barbara, thanks. HARRIS: Just one more reminder, to keep it right here in the newsroom for the latest on the school shooting investigation that Pennsylvania state police commissioner is holding a news conference noon Eastern Time, just 30 minutes from right now. We'll bring it to you live, right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: In Pennsylvania's Amish Country, a fifth victim has died after that school shooting as the people of this quiet community come together in grief. Police are revealing details about the man they say opened fire on a group of girls and young women yesterday and then shot himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER JEFFREY MILLER, PENN. STATE POLICE: It's clear to us as the investigation unfolds that he was -- he had planned this in advance, at least two or three days in advance, and he had certain supplies that he already had. He had other things that he purchased. But make no mistake about it, he planned on a siege at this school, and he had enough equipment and ammunition and weapons to hunker down in that position for a lengthy period of time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: And we'll find out more about the investigation when the state police commissioner, Jeffrey Miller, holds a news conference at the top of the hour. Keep it right here in the NEWSROOM for live coverage.

COLLINS: The Foley fallout, chapter two. One of the most conservative voices in Washington is calling for the speaker of the House to resign his leadership position. "The Washington Times" says Dennis Hastert should have ordered a formal investigation of Republican Congressman Mark Foley. The Florida lawmaker resigned after sexually charged e-mails became public.

Just five week's before midterm elections, the paper's editorial board says, quote, "Mr. Hastert has forfeited the confidence of the public and his party." It goes on to say, Hastert, quote, can not preside over the necessary coming investigation, an investigation that must examine his own inept performance.

For his part, Hastert says he plans to stay in his job. He maintains the top Republican leadership did not know about sexually explicit messages allegedly sent by Foley until those messages were reported in the media.

Congressman, controversy and the page program. As with other Washington scandals, it's happened before.

CNN's Joe Johns looks back.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was never supposed to happen again. Twenty-three years ago, a scandal involving congressional pages and members of Congress rocked the Capitol. Then Congressman Daniel Crane of Illinois and Congressman Gerry Studds of Massachusetts were called on the carpet for having affairs with a couple of 17-year-olds, Studds with a male, Crane with a female.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, I have not yet apologized to my colleagues and this body for the shame I have brought down on this institution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: The men were censured, made to stand in the well of the House, and listen as the charges against them were read out loud. Some said they got off too lightly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NEWT GINGRICH (R), GEORGIA: I cannot see how a reprimand is, in any way, adequate. I cannot see the signpost it sends. I cannot see the guide it gives to the American nation. I cannot see how it rebuilds any sense of trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: So, Congress tightened the rules for the page program.

Stan Brand was House counsel back then, the top lawyer here in the early 1980s.

STAN BRAND, FORMER CHIEF COUNSEL, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: It's a replay of what occurred in the House in the '80s. There was a huge set of allegations about sexual conduct with pages, drugs and alcohol abuse. And, of course, the House acts as parents for these kids.

JOHNS: And now, after Mark Foley's resignation, the focus is on his alleged words written in cyberspace, the raunchy instant messages that sent a shudder through the Congress last week.

REP. JOHN SHIMKUS (R), ILLINOIS: The instant messages Mark Foley reportedly sent to a former page are deplorable.

JOHNS: But one question now being asked is whether House leaders, who first learned of a so-called over-friendly e-mail from Foley to a former page months ago, had a duty to do more than simply tell Foley to cease all communications with the former page.

Stan Brand and others say, it all depends on the facts, which haven't been sorted out yet, and whether state or federal law applies. But:

BRAND: Clearly, there was a -- there was an ethical and moral duty, since these kids are consigned to the House, to act as parents.

JOHNS: Many legal experts say the House of Representatives is supposed to stand in the shoes of the parents, because the pages are generally away from home, under supervision of the government, and, frankly, so young.

But, as any parent can tell you, protecting kids is harder because of the Internet. Congress passed laws to keep cyber-stalkers away, ironically, spearheaded, in part, by Foley himself. But, in this case, laws were not enough.

SHIMKUS: I am determined to do everything that we can to make sure that this kind of incident will never happen again.

JOHNS: A promise we heard 23 years ago.

Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: And Joe Johns is part of the best political team on television.

COLLINS: Who has the president's ear? According to Bob Woodward, former secretary of state, Henry Kissinger sure does. Woodward was on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" talking about his new book, "State of Denial."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Lots of former secretaries of state and other officials are called in by lots of administrations. It doesn't mean that they're wielding any influence. They're just offering their thoughts.

BOB WOODWARD, AUTHOR, "STATE OF DENIAL": Yes but...

KING: I'm paraphrasing but I think that's what he said.

WOODWARD: But as Cheney told me, Kissinger is -- excuse me -- the person they see the most often. In fact, Cheney said...

KING: Cheney told you that?

WOODWARD: Cheney told me.

KING: But I thought he didn't interview.

WOODWARD: In a discussion he told me about this, and said he meets with Kissinger once a month and the president every two or three months. Kissinger has gone on television and said he had about 15 to 20 meetings with this president. That's a lot of meetings.

KING: Does it mean he has impact or just thoughts?

WOODWARD: Well, trace the chain of what happened. Kissinger goes out and writes in August of '05 that in Iraq victory is the only meaningful exit strategy. About three months later, the White House comes out with what's called the plan for victory right out of Kissinger's play book.

KING: And did that surprise you when you learned?

WOODWARD: It did.

KING: Because they never speak about Henry Kissinger.

WOODWARD: I know, exactly. And, in fact, Andy Card is quoted in the book saying that Kissinger was almost like family. He was told, any time you're in town, call and see if the president's available and stop by.

KING: Tony Snow said that the president listens to everybody and he gets all kinds of input. Who do you know that talks to him that is critical of the war that has his ear?

WOODWARD: That's a good question. I report in the book what happened with Senator Hagel, the Republican from Nebraska, who went to the White House for lunch, took the president aside and said something rather bold. He said, "You're bubbled in. You're not talking to people. You need to talk to people."

And so, Hagel had some meetings with Steve Hadley, the national security adviser, and there was lots of talk and so forth and Hagel then came out publicly and said they're denying reality. They won't get people in and really listen, you know. It's one thing to have kind of, you know, small meetings and discussions. It's another thing to say "I really want to know what you think."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: "State of Denial" was released over the weekend, already in its third printing. And it's at the top of Amazon.com's best seller list.

HARRIS: Health news next. Most fresh spinach gets the all clear, but some consumers taking a wait and see attitude. That story straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: At noon Eastern time, we are going to be hearing from the police commissioner, Lancaster County, about the Amish school shooting and the investigation there, details that they may have learned in their studies. Once again, 12:00 Eastern. We'll bring it to you live.

HARRIS: It's safe to eat fresh spinach again, according to the FDA. The agency has given the all-clear for spinach to return to store shelves. But for many shoppers, the confusion and the worry are far from clear.

CNN's Judy Fortin reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDY FORTIN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Spinach is going back on the supermarket shelves nearly three weeks after it was removed when linked to an outbreak of E. coli. The Food and Drug Administration identified the source of the contamination, a large producer of greens in California.

DR. DAVID ACHESON, FDA: There is no reason at this point for concern over that in the context of the consumers.

FORTIN: Still, some retailers say they will wait until they can be certain the spinach they sell is not from California. Others will stock spinach in bunches but not in bags, which can act as incubators for the bacteria. Giant Foods and Stop n' Shop, an East Coast chain, will sell bagged spinach grown in Colorado or Canada, but some consumers are wary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to have to wait for a while. I can't -- I'm not going to rush up on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And until I hear a lot of people actually buying it, and they are OK off it, that's when I will probably start buying it.

FORTIN: Food experts say risks of contamination increase when part of the processing is done in the field, rather than in a factory. Another problem, bags don't always show where the spinach was grown.

ACHESON: It's very difficult for a consumer to know where -- where was this grown, you know, is it -- is it OK for me to eat this?

FORTIN: The FDA says half of E. coli outbreaks in the last decade have been traced to central California, and it wants growers and processors to develop a plan to minimize the risk of another outbreak in spinach and other leafy greens

ACHESON: The industry needs to step up to the plate and to do more to correct the problem and demonstrate to consumers that they have done more, because that's what's going to restore consumer confidence in this.

FORTIN: There's not much the consumer can do but rely on best practice from growers, grocers and restaurants -- or boil their spinach.

Judy Fortin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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HARRIS: And once again, another reminder. Keep it right here in the NEWSROOM for the latest on the school shooting investigation. The Pennsylvania state police commissioner, holding a news conference just minutes from now. We will bring it to you live on CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We have some information just coming in to us here at CNN. We are hearing from a state-run radio that a commercial airliner has been hijacked in Greek air space. You see it on the bottom of your screen there as well, Turkish TV. This is a passenger plane, we are not sure what type of aircraft. But apparently, the state-run radio there says that a Mayday signal has been given out from that aircraft.

Typically what happens here is when the pilot in command is realizing or noticing that something is going awry on that airplane, they dial in a specific and previously determined code that alerts the air traffic controllers that something is going on the aircraft.

And I'm also just hearing in my ear that the aircraft has now landed.

Is that what I'm hearing?

In Brindisi, Italy. All right. So we are continuing to follow this information for you. We'll bring you the latest.

HARRIS: And we are also keeping an eye on all things developing with Congressman Foley. And we understand that Susan Roesgen is on the line with us right now.

Susan, I understand -- she's with us live.

Good to see you, Susan. I understand had you an opportunity to talk to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales a short time ago on this subject.

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's true, Tony.

Alberto Gonzales is here in New Orleans for an entirely unrelated matter. He's here to address the National Convention. But just a few minutes ago, the attorney general did give his first on the record, on-camera comments on the Foley situation. When I asked him about it, he said they are only in the fact-finding phase right now, not yet a formal investigation.

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ALBERTO GONZALES, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Obviously we consider these allegations very seriously. It's early in the process. And so please give us an opportunity to do our jobs to ensure that our children remain safe.

QUESTION: If Congressman Foley's colleagues might have been aware of his actions but didn't alert authorities, could they face some sort of federal charges?

GONZALES: Listen, I'm not going to get into what ifs. We're in the process now, we're responding to the request to look at this information -- look at the facts here. And that's what we're doing. And so once we gather more information, we'll be in a better position to answer these kinds of questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROESGEN: I also asked the attorney general about the reports that his own FBI field office in D.C. was aware of at least some of these e-mails back in July, Tony, and why they did not start an investigation right at that time. And he gave basically the same answer he gave to my previous question, which was, listen, I don't want to get into it, we're just now in the fact finding, and we'll sort it out later.

So some vague answers, but at least we got him on the record today on this issue.

HARRIS: That's good. Good hustle, Susan. We appreciate it. It gives us an opportunity, once again, to remind you to keep it right here in the NEWSROOM.

We will be offering up the latest on the school shooting investigation. The Pennsylvania state police commissioner, Jeffrey Miller, will be holding a news conference. At the top of the hour is when it is scheduled. That's just a couple minutes from now.

We will of course bring it to you live, right here in the NEWSROOM. Once again, you're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

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