Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Breaking News in Foley`s Case

Aired October 03, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking developments tonight -- to D.C.`s Capitol Hill, a veteran congressman`s teen Internet sex scandal continues to grow. House Representative Mark Foley is out, resigning to enter rehab after alleged explicit e-mails to young boys serving as a House page. Within the hour, bombshell announcement by Foley. As some sort of an excuse, he claims he himself was molested as a teenager, is gay and is an alcoholic. What does that have to do with this? The FBI now called in to investigate. Tonight, inside the Capitol Hill teen scandal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t until ABC interviewed Congressman Foley or whoever they did that these new sexually explicit e-mails came out.

GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was disgusted by the revelations and disappointed that he would violate the trust of the citizens who placed him in office.

DAVID ROTH, MARK FOLEY`S ATTORNEY: Specifically, Mark has asked that you be told that between the ages of 13 and 15, he was molested by a clergyman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Straight to Capitol Hill. Standing by, Gary Nurenberg, CNN Washington correspondent. Gary, thank you for being with us. I understand he has gone into rehab. Why not to jail?

GARY NURENBERG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the FBI was referred some of the initial e-mails that were first made public to members of -- some members of the House leadership last fall. They were sent those e-mails in early July by a former prosecutor here in Washington who now heads an advocacy group called Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, CREW. Her name is Melanie Sloan. Ms. Sloan says she sent them to the FBI in early July of this year, and then was disappointed that the FBI did not act more aggressively on that tip to investigate, to talk to other pages and see if there were other e-mails. The Associated Press is sourcing an FBI spokesman tonight as saying that their initial review of those documents in July led them to conclude in the Washington field office that no crime had at that point been committed.

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. You`re saying July 2006?

NURENBERG: July of 2006.

GRACE: Well, hold on. Gary, go with me back into time. Let`s go back to August 2005, e-mails to an LA kid. Isn`t that when they start? And possibly even back to 2003. I mean, when did all this come to light?

NURENBERG: Well, that is exactly what the investigations will dig into and find out who knew what when. As you know, those are the emerging questions, particularly five weeks before an election that could decide who controls congress. Democrats, as you know, are charging parts of the Republican leadership with a cover-up and want an investigation to see if that claim is an actual one.

Republicans, of course, say that they did not know about the salacious nature of the e-mails that were disclosed on Friday, over and above those that they saw in the fall of last year that they described, as you know, as overly friendly or suggestive, but not with the explicit sexual content of the e-mails that were disclosed by ABC News on Friday.

GRACE: OK, let`s go through what we know about the e-mails, Gary. With us, Gary Nurenberg CNN Washington correspondent. Again, Gary, thank you for being with us. Now, it`s my understanding that we believe these e- mails date back to around 2005 with a young kid out of Louisiana. that at that juncture, Representative Rodney Alexander was consulted. Nothing came of it. And then -- go ahead. Interrupt me. Correct me if I`m wrong.

NURENBERG: No, you`re on the right path. Rodney Alexander is the Republican congressman from Louisiana who sponsored this page. It was brought to his attention by the parents of the page in the fall of last year, who were concerned that their son was getting e-mails from the congressman saying, for example, Send me a picture, I want to make sure you`re OK after Katrina, which, after all, hit Louisiana in the fall. Parents go to Congressman Alexander and says, Look, we don`t want to pursue this, but just get him to stop. Have him leave our son alone.

At that point, as you know, Alexander said that he went to aides to Speaker Hastert and particularly to the fellow, several months later, who`s running Republican congressional campaigns, brought it to their attention and thought that it would be dealt with. Alexander went on to say today that in that effort, in taking it to what he perceived to be the leadership of the House that would act, he said he failed, and then he apologized to the family for what he called his failure.

GRACE: Well, I guess so!

NURENBERG: He was really concerned that they didn`t respond enough.

GRACE: This is August 2005 with a Louisiana kid. So this has been knowledge floating around the House of Representatives probably all the way to the top, and nobody did a thing. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thank my colleague. And now someone who spends a lot of time with you also, Mr. Mark Foley from Florida would like to say a thank you and good-bye.

REP. MARK FOLEY (R), FLORIDA: I warn all of you not to cry in front of me, please, so I can get through this very important day with you without shedding tears, as well. First, I want all of you to salute two people that I know at times were tough on you. They`re taskmasters. They`re disciplinarians. But they love you in an incredibly personal way.

I barely graduated from high school, and I didn`t go to college. I`m a proud member of this great institution because I kept trying. I never gave up and never gave in to the instincts to be lazy or run for cover. And you all have proven without a doubt that you are not only courageous Americans but wonderful young people.

Cherish your youth. Cherish this experience. But above all, cherish your families. Let them know how much you appreciate them giving you this chance. And let them know how much you appreciate their love to make you the people you are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. There is Foley actually crying. That`s him speaking to the pages just before they disband for the end of the term.

Back out to Gary Nurenberg, CNN Washington correspondent. Gary, he was crying when it came time to say bye-bye to the pages. And also, he was saying, Thank your family for this opportunity. For what? To get nasty IMs, instant messages, from me?

NURENBERG: Well, people who have been involved in the page program -- I talked, for example, to a 25-year-old girl who was there in 1999. She said that Mr. Foley was a strong supporter of the page program and that he made an effort to take an interest in the pages, boys and girls, to see how they were doing and to make sure that the experience was a beneficial one for them to learn how the government operated.

In her view, and in her words, which is a paraphrase, she never saw anything she called, quote, "creepy" about him. But in that speech that you were just playing to the graduating class of pages several years ago, Foley told an interesting anecdote about an auction that the pages held. The winner got to go out for dinner with Mark Foley. And as he described that trip downtown to a steakhouse here in Washington with the winning page...

GRACE: Let me guess. A boy won?

NURENBERG: A boy won. Mr. Foley talked about driving him down to a steakhouse in Washington in his BMW. But in his speech, he said, Before this happened, I told him, Call your parents. Get their permission. Let`s make certain that they know that this is about to happen. And then he went on to say they had a wonderful steak dinner. He went on to tell the class of pages, The reason I tell you all of this is to make you jealous that you didn`t win the auction.

The kids that we talked to -- and I`ve only talked to a couple of those pages -- say he was very interested in the program, but they did not see him behaving in an inappropriate way through their dealings with him in 2002, 2003.

GRACE: Out to Marc Klaas, joining us. Marc, it`s not very often that you see a crime against a child out in the open. I`m certainly not surprised nobody saw anything. I`m just happy for all those other male pages that didn`t win the steak dinner with Foley!

MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Yes. Well, it`s absolutely unbelievable and it`s the deniability here. Apparently, they knew about this well in the past. Certainly, the -- certainly, the page board was made aware of this many months ago, yet that information was held back from the Democratic member of the page board. That is undeniable. That tells me that they were using this secret of this guy`s for their own political purposes, which is -- tell me if I`m wrong here. Somebody tell me if I`m wrong, but it seems to me that they put party interest ahead of the safety of America`s children. And I find something incredibly distasteful, unbelievably unethical, and totally immoral about that -- about that fact.

GRACE: Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Did you notice even the defense attorneys on the panel tonight are suddenly mute for the first time ever? And remember, forget about unethical and immoral. What about breaking the law? Well, Foley`s attorney has explained it all. He said, A, his client has an alcohol problem. He has a mental illness. He was abused as a child. And PS, he`s gay. Now, what gay has to do with molesting a child, I don`t know. Is he saying that mental illness is being gay? That`s not going to work.

Take a listen to what the attorney just said within the hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Mark explicitly reaffirms his acceptance of responsibility and remorse. He reiterates unequivocally that he has never had sexual contact with a minor. Mark voluntarily entered a substance abuse and mental health facility on Sunday at approximately midnight Eastern time. I was there, and he will be there for at least 30 days. This decision was Mark`s, as was his decision to resign from the United States House of Representatives. This was a life decision, not a tactical one made by others.

Mark does not blame the trauma he sustained as a young adolescent for his totally inappropriate e-mails and IMs. He continues to offer no excuse whatsoever for his conduct. As is so often the case with victims of abuse, Mark advises that he kept his shame to himself for almost 40 years. Specifically, Mark has asked that you be told that between the ages of 13 and 15, he was molested by a clergyman. Finally, Mark Foley wants you to know that he is a gay man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. Let`s unchain the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the San Francisco jurisdiction, John Burris, a noted defense attorney. Also, in the New York jurisdiction, a trial veteran, Richard Herman. OK, guys. I know you know all the tricks of the trade. No offense. But to you, John Burris. Come on. Is he trying to say that being gay is a mental illness? That`s not going to work. Check the statute. Alcoholism? Is that going to work? No way!

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t think he`s saying that at all. He`s just trying to give some context on this person so you have a better understanding of him. After all, a lot of people his age have come forward and said that they had been abused as young people, as well. Much litigation`s taken place in the country. He just happens to be another part of that. None of that`s a defense. No question about...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You don`t see a little coincidence of him coming out with that right when it`s time for the FBI to come in to investigate him?

(CROSSTALK)

BURRIS: You know what? People come out when they have to come out. And you know, sometimes these things are deeply buried in a person`s psyche and they can`t come out. I don`t think it`s inappropriate for him to have done it. I don`t think it`s wrong. I think you do need to -- you need -- people need to understand how this could happen to a guy who`s a successful person in life.

GRACE: No! No!

BURRIS: This was some context to it...

GRACE: Actually, I don`t understand it. I don`t understand why a guy in his position or any position -- Richard Herman, I`ll give you a crack at it -- would prey on young men, young boys 16 years old. I hope that`s the youngest. Please, throw me the best thing you`ve got, Richard. Hit me.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it`s page two in the investigation here, but they`re going to have to find some sort of physical contact between him and one of these young kids. If they don`t find that, it`s going to be very difficult to prosecute him based on all the different jurisdictions and all the conflicts, the constitutional questions here...

GRACE: Conflicts?

HERMAN: ... the jurisdictional issues...

GRACE: What conflicts?

HERMAN: There`s jurisdictional issues, Nancy...

GRACE: No, you said conflict. What conflict?

HERMAN: Well, conflict with respect to what state will prosecute him -- Florida, D.C., the federal system?

GRACE: I don`t see that as a conflict, Richard. No way, Richard. Good luck on that one, claiming there`s some kind of conflict in law...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No, there`s no conflict of law. It will be either...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: It will -- Rosie, would you put that up again, please? How about enticing a minor? How about offering to serve alcohol to a minor? How about soliciting a minor or lewd and lascivious acts? No one`s going to prosecute him on providing alcohol to a minor, talking about that.

GRACE: What about the others?

(CROSSTALK)

BURRIS: ... if they do, it has to be some -- something strong enough that the prosecution feels good about but...

HERMAN: Physical contact.

BURRIS: ... this innuendoes -- physical contact, clear. No question about that. But if you`re talking about going to dinner tonight or going somewhere...

GRACE: No, no, no, no, no, no.

BURRIS: ... that`s not enough.

GRACE: I`m not talking about a steak dinner. I`m not talking about a steak dinner. Let`s go out to Charlie Hurt...

BURRIS: Or even a shrimp dinner.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: You know what? I would laugh, but frankly, this is the guy -- out to Charlie Hurt. You give me his resume. Charlie is joining us. He is the Capitol Hill bureau chief with "The Washington Times," joining us along with Gary Nurenberg. Charlie, what were all the titles that Foley held? I mean, he was leading so many crusades to protect children from Internet predators, right?

CHARLIE HURT, "WASHINGTON TIMES": He really was the face of, you know, the House Republicans` caucus for protecting children from exactly this kind of behavior. And you know, going back to the press conference today in Florida, which was just an astounding thing to watch, that is standard operating procedure for any lawmaker in this town who gets in trouble. What they do is...

GRACE: I`m sick. I`m sick.

HURT: ... they let the dust settle for two days and then they come and they say-

GRACE: Then they go to rehab.

HURT: Right, they to rehab and then they claim that they`re a victim somehow. And if you`ve seen it once, you`ve seen it a hundred times here in Washington.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines. Regina in New York. Hi, Regina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. I have a question. (INAUDIBLE) Mark Foley every married, and does he have any children?

GRACE: Well, if you`ve ever seen the coverage, Regina, the press always says, Mark Foley, single. They always state that. So I guess they were baiting him to make his announcement that he`s gay. And what else did she ask me, Rosie? Was he married and did he have a family? To my understanding, his only family is the parents and siblings but no children of his own.

Very quickly, I want to go out to psychiatrist Dr. Gail Saltz. You know, Dr. Saltz, my sister was an intern on Capitol Hill. Nothing like this ever, ever, ever -- she was an intern to a very well-respected senator, Sam Nunn. But the more we hear about this, do you recall back in 1983, the page scandals with Representative Daniel Crane, a 17-year-old girl, representative Gerry Studds with a 16-year-old boy, as I recall? He ended up drinking vodka with a boy, having sex with the boy and going to Europe with the boy.

What`s this entitlement? They can park anywhere they want to. They don`t have to pay for stamps. They get away with everything, traffic violations out the wazoo. Everything`s covered up. And apparently, the page program is like a buffet.

DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, obviously, it shouldn`t be a buffet. But you know, what you bring up is an important point, and that is that some of these people feel very powerful, and in their power, they feel that they can take advantage of those who are not. And I think that`s really what you`re seeing here. And the people who are pages, they don`t feel that they can -- frankly, they can`t say yes or no because they can`t say no because they are almost employees of these people and in a position of no power.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Mark Foley was never under the influence of alcohol while he was a public servant. Based upon all of the information that I have, Mark was under the influence of alcohol at the time that he sent inappropriate e-mails and IMs, alleged e-mails and IMs that I have been advised of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I don`t know what law school that lawyer went to, but voluntary intoxication is not a defense under the law. We are talking about Mark Foley, one of the leaders on Capitol Hill, now resigned. He`s out after it comes to light multiple e-mails, IMs, instant messages, to young boys serving as pages.

Let`s take a look at some of these. My question is, why is he in rehab and not on his way to jail? Rosie, let`s take a look at some of these instant messages, called IMs. Mark Foley -- he might well as written his whole name out -- "I miss you lots in San Diego." Teen, "I can`t wait til D.C. Did you pick a night for dinner?" "Not yet, but likely Friday." "OK, I`ll plan for Friday then." Foley, "That will be fun."

Let`s move along. Foley, "I want to see you." Teen, "like I said, not til February. Then we`ll go to dinner." Foley, "And then what happens?" Teen, "We eat, we drink, who knows, hang out late into the night." Foley, "And?" Teen, "I don`t know." Foley, "Don`t know what?" Teen, "I have the feeling you`re fishing here. I`m not sure what I would be comfortable with. We`ll see."

The next screen that we have. "Are you in your boxers?" Foley, Representative Foley, to a boy, a page, "Are you in your boxers, too?" Teen, "No, I just got home. I had a college interview." Foley, "Well, strip down and get relaxed."

Next, "What are you wearing?" "T-shirt and shorts." "Love to slip them off of you," says Foley. "Do I make you a little horny," says Foley. Teen, "A little." Foley, "Cool."

OK, back out to our special guest joining us tonight, Charlie Hurt, Capitol Hill bureau chief of "The Washington Times." Today you called for Hastert to resign. Why?

HURT: Well, just to be technical about it, the editorial board did. But certainly, "The Washington Times" is normally a big supporter of Dennis Hastert, and their argument was that, Look, you should have seen the red flags and, you know, investigated further and found these -- the far more lurid, sexually explicit instant messages. You know, their claim is that they only saw the earlier, much tamer e-mails. But it does beg the question why they didn`t look further.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: He is completely devastated by letting his community, his family, his political party, his constituents and his country down. He was extremely depressed, but his concern is not for himself, his concern is for the damage that his actions have caused to others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, maybe he can get therapy behind bars. Like so many other politicians, he has been whisked off to rehab at an undisclosed location while many people would be sent straight to jail.

Let`s go out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. police officer and FBI agent. First of all, as to these e-mails, CNN can`t independently confirm them. They`ve been reported by ABC. And we know he resigned for a reason, all right, because of alleged e-mails. But explain to me why the feds have been brought in and how far they can go back on Foley`s computer.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, the FBI and Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Nancy, have been brought in this, too. They`re going to look at the federal side and see if there`s any state violations broken, since he does come from Florida.

Now, when it comes down to the federal title, Title 18, they`re taking a look to see if there`s anything at all that violates that right now. And they`re going to go back, they`re going to go back years and years. And there`s a lot of -- they can go back in the computer. They can also subpoena his e-mails, also, his instant messages and his phone, look at cell phone records. The FDLE also is going to take a look to see if there`s any Florida violations because the transmission of material harmful to minors to a minor by electronic device or equipment is a crime in Florida.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Mark is an alcoholic. He drank in secret; he did not drink in public. He had two lives with regard to his alcohol consumption. In public and in public service, he was sober. When he was alone, he was not sober. He is an acknowledged alcoholic. He has told the country he`s an alcoholic in his fax that was sent out about 6:00 p.m. yesterday.

The combination of alcohol, mental illness can result in inappropriate conduct, which Mark Foley has fully accepted responsibility for. He is extremely apologetic, not only to the citizens of Palm Beach County and the surrounding counties that he served, to his party, and to his country, and the people that he feels he`s let down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, Foley is apparently tonight in seclusion at an undisclosed clinic. I`m imagining it`s pretty cushy, something like Betty Ford maybe, possibly Silver Hills -- that`s pretty posh -- when many people believe he should be somewhere like the George Bailey Detention Facility in San Diego or the San Diego Central. There`s the West Palm Beach jail -- that`s a great possibility -- or even the D.C. jail there in Washington.

Out to Charlie Hurt, the Capitol Hill bureau chief with the "Washington Times," I`m a little confused. I know all the politicians are in a fit over whether Hastert should resign, the political fallout. Was it a frame-up by the Democrats? Why did it leak now? My question is: Why isn`t this guy headed to a detention facility? Why is he in some posh treatment center?

HURT: Because he`s a closet drinker, as his lawyer said today. But one of the most amazing things about that press conference was that the lawyer said that Foley had never been drunk while executing his public duties. Well, if that`s true, then he`s going to have a hard time explaining some of these instant messages that apparently he sent at -- you know, because we can tell by the time stamps exactly when he sent them -- while there were votes going on, on the floor, you know, in between, you know, voting on amendments and things like that. If that`s the case, you know, either he can instantaneously become sober again or he was drunk while performing his public duties.

GRACE: Or he`s hiding behind the defense of alcoholism, which under the law is simply not a defense.

Out to Gary Nurenberg, CNN Washington correspondent joining us there from the capital, has it dawned on anyone that this could be considered a crime and you don`t just go dry out in rehab for a crime on children?

NURENBERG: Well, when the local FBI office was forwarded those e- mails from last year earlier this summer, it was trying to determine whether or not a crime had been committed. And according to the Associated Press, it quotes a source in that office as saying it reached a conclusion no crime had.

But, Nancy, let me put on my reporter`s hat for a minute and take advantage of your legal background and maybe that of John or Richard and ask a question out of that press conference. There`s something I didn`t understand from Foley`s lawyer tonight. The lawyer said that Foley wanted to disclose who the clergyman who molested him when he was a child and wanted to disclose what church that clergyman was with, but upon advice of civil counsel was told he really shouldn`t do that at this time.

What I don`t understand is, if the statute of limitations has run, and if truth is a defense against any kind of libel reaction, why would a civil lawyer tell Foley you can`t say who the clergyman is, you can`t say what religion even he was with? I don`t get it.

GRACE: Well, I would venture to guess -- making a calculated guess -- that he doesn`t want to reveal the name of the clergyperson because it`s not true. Because you are absolutely correct -- joining us, Gary Nurenberg -- the truth is a complete defense.

Let`s go to the lawyers, John Burris, Richard Herman. What about it, Richard Herman?

HERMAN: Well, Nancy, I think they`re gearing up for civil litigation, so they don`t want him to jeopardize any aspect of that. The answer, with respect to the statute of limitations...

GRACE: Why would the truth jeopardize it?

HERMAN: No, the truth is absolutely a defense for defamation, but the issue with respect to statute of limitations, when he was asked, "Do you expect criminal charges?" And his response was, "The statute of limitations has expired," so they`re not going to bring criminal charges. Also, Nancy...

GRACE: You mean against the clergyperson?

HERMAN: No, no. Against him, against Foley.

GRACE: Foley.

HERMAN: Criminally, the statute of limitations has expired. In D.C., Nancy...

GRACE: Why do you say that?

HERMAN: That`s what his lawyer said today in the press conference.

GRACE: I don`t think that the Internet crime on a child is a misdemeanor. I don`t think a statute has run.

Burris?

BURRIS: I would say that he had to be careful here because he doesn`t know whether the statute has run, because he doesn`t really know actually what crimes are alleged to have occurred. You don`t when all of this started; you don`t know the manner in which it occurred. So he had to be very circumspect around this. I think he talked too much today myself, but, you know...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know what? That`s a really good point. That`s a really good point...

BURRIS: He didn`t really have to say all that he said.

GRACE: ... that both of you are making.

HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, the age of consent in D.C. is 16. Sixteen is the age of consent in Washington, D.C.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. The age of consent is different when you have solicited someone to drink, when you`re enticing a child.

Let`s go out to Mike Brooks regarding the Florida statute, regarding Internet activity with a child. What about that, Mike? Age of consent is not the same for all of these statutes.

BROOKS: No. In Florida, a minor is considered anyone under the age of 18. So if that person was involved in this between the ages of 16 and 18, 18 is the cutoff. They`ll have to check that out. And I`m sure there are going to be many, many interviews done. In this investigation, this is just the early stages right now.

GRACE: And, Mike, isn`t that a felony in Florida?

BROOKS: It`s a third-degree felony in the state of Florida.

GRACE: OK. So the statute of limitations has not run if these e- mails were brought to light in August of 2005. The statute I`m sure is longer than two years.

Let`s go out to the lines. Let`s go to Pam in North Carolina. Hi, Pam.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Great show. It was great book you had. My question is: Since minors are underage, who supervises them or is their guardian while they are there?

GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question. And joining us right now is a very special guest. His name is Luke Moses, and he was part of the page program there on Capitol Hill.

Hello, Luke. Thank you for being with us.

LUKE MOSES, FORMER HOUSE PAGE: Thank you for having me, Nancy.

GRACE: How old are you now?

MOSES: I`m 21.

GRACE: Where are you from?

MOSES: Louisville, Georgia, about two hours from Macon where you`re from.

GRACE: I thought I recognized that. I don`t hear that much up here. How did you get into the -- I was mentioning earlier my sister was -- I`ve been corrected -- was an intern for Stuckey, and she never had any experience like this. I want to hear how you got involved in the page program and answer Pam`s question about what kind of supervision you had.

MOSES: Well, I got involved in the page program -- it`s kind of a complicated story. I was about 15, got lost at the capital, ran into a member of the Congress who is Cynthia McKinney, and she took me around the capital for the whole day. I got to hang out with her and Isaac Hayes for the whole day.

And we started e-mailing back and forth. It was nothing like the Foley e-mails. But she asked me to be her page about a year later, and I did it. And it was one of the best things I ever did.

GRACE: I bet you have really good grades, too.

MOSES: Oh, I used to. I don`t know about now.

GRACE: Well, what kind of supervision did the pages get, in answer to Pam`s question?

MOSES: Well, we had to go through a metal detector to even get into...

GRACE: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean who? I`m not accusing you of carrying a switchblade on the Capitol. I`m talking about: Who knew where you were, and what you were doing? And if someone had hit on you inappropriately, who would you go to? Did you have a mentor or a supervisor?

MOSES: Sure. The Democratic pages had a supervisor on the floor, and so did the Republican pages. And we had proctors at the dorms. You know, nothing like this was ever discussed, though. And this is pretty unconscionable. And I assume we would have gone to -- if it would have happened to one of us, we could have gone to one of our supervisors there. But, you know, something like this was never even addressed as a possibility.

GRACE: Luke, when you -- you were a page, not an intern, correct?

MOSES: That`s right. I`m an intern now.

GRACE: Ah, OK. So interns are teenagers -- excuse me, pages are teenagers and interns are in college, correct?

MOSES: That`s correct.

GRACE: Do the pages -- are they aware that this sort of thing goes on? Is it discussed? Is it a secret? What?

MOSES: You know, it`s not discussed, Nancy. We were never aware that anything like this was even possible. You know, we knew some members were weird. The only thing we ever knew about Foley was that he was a big supporter of the page program. And, you know, we knew five years ago that he was in the closet, too, but we never knew anything like he was a predator.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Based on all the information that I have, Mark Foley has never, ever had inappropriate sexual contact with a minor in his life.

REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We want to make sure that all our pages are safe and the page system is safe. None of us are very happy about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. One of the most powerful figures on Capitol Hill, Mark Foley, has resigned in the wake of revelations he came onto boy interns via instant messages. So far, that`s all we know about.

Back out to Gary Nurenberg, CNN Washington correspondent joining us there in Washington. Gary, had there been any history of Foley hitting on or approaching interns?

NURENBERG: Well, approaching interns in a friendly and supportive way. As you know, pages...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Let me guess: They were all boy pages?

NURENBERG: No. In fact, I talked to a young page named Cara Frank (ph), who now works at a nonprofit here in town. She says he was a strong supporter of the page program.

You know, in retrospect, it`s easy to ask, "Gee, you know, if a 16- year-old kid is e-mailing back and forth with a congressperson, something`s wrong." But then I listen to Luke and talk about his relationship with Cynthia McKinney, perfectly appropriate and above board. She takes him to meet Miss America. She takes him to lunch. She lets him hang out in the office. They e-mail back and forth after Luke leaves the page program, perfectly appropriate kind of relationship between the two, help Luke as a 16-year-old kid learn about how government worked, what a congressperson did, help enhance that understanding...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Gary, I know you`re the reporter and I`m just the anchor, but that`s not the kind of e-mails Foley was sending. Nowhere did McKinney say, "Do I make you horny?" Going all Austin Powers on him.

NURENBERG: Nancy, you`re absolutely right. I`m trying to get into the mindset of the people who were brought these e-mails last fall. Congresspeople look around and they see 300 colleagues who are dealing with pages everyday, most of whom have the kind of relationship that Luke had with Congresswoman McKinney.

The mindset is, when you`re dealing with a 16-year-old kid you`re responsible for on the floor of Congress, the mindset is this happens every day. We`re in touch with these kids all the time. We`re trying to help them.

It must have been really jarring for the Republican leadership to hear, "Gee, maybe there`s something wrong this time." Perhaps that mindset, that normalcy of relationships between 16-year-old kid and congresspeople skewed the reaction and perhaps caused them to not react as quickly as perhaps they should have.

GRACE: Well, according to our information, our sources say it`s been since August of 2005, so that was quite a skewing you`re referring to.

Let`s go out to the lines. Donny in South Carolina, hi, Donny.

CALLER: Hey, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

CALLER: Why didn`t the FBI investigate this fellow?

GRACE: Why are they?

CALLER: Why didn`t they last year?

GRACE: You know, very interesting fact. Let`s go out to Charlie Hurt. What was the slowdown? The FBI apparently got brought in when?

HURT: The FBI apparently got brought in at least several months ago, but there`s a very important difference here. There were two separate and distinct batches of Internet messages.

The first batch was a batch of e-mails that surfaced apparently sometime about a year ago, and they were suggestive. They were weird. They were creepy messages between Mr. Foley and a page for a congressman in Louisiana. However, they weren`t explicitly sexual. They weren`t, you know, they weren`t -- there were no smoking gun there, but obviously should have led to more questions.

The second batch, which is the batch we`re all talking about now, the batch you cannot read on the air, those are the real -- the most disgusting ones and the ones that have only come out in the last of couple days. And those are the ones that the FBI is now looking at and trying to see whether or not there isn`t a case.

GRACE: And back out to Mike Brooks. Of course, D.C. is not under a state jurisdiction, either, so they bring in the feds.

BROOKS: That`s exactly right. And Capitol Hill also has a FBI agent who is a liaison there. And in the first case, Nancy, it may not have met the criteria of criminality. The FBI will open up what they call a P.I., a preliminary inquiry. They`ll take a look at everything in the least obstructive or least way to go in to delve into things. But they should have asked more questions. They should have gone out and interviewed more witnesses, in my opinion, before they made the conclusion that there was no criminality involved at all.

GRACE: On the other hand, let`s go out to Maureen Flatly, child advocate. You met her here on the show when we all advocating Masha`s Law in Washington, as well as Marc Klaas joining us, president of Beyond Missing. All of us were there to push through the Child Safety Act of 2006.

And guess what? Foley was a supporter of that. And you know what? It is simple Trial 101 we`re looking at here: retroactive application. The Child Safety Act of 2006 apparently went into effect after these e- mails, so it`s not going to apply retroactively. That`s a point of law.

Maureen Flatly, you have worked with Foley. You have met with him many times. What`s your response?

MAUREEN FLATLY, CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, Nancy, you know, all of these rationalizations about Foley`s activities and the denials by the congressional leadership...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. You mean that he is a drunk, gay, mentally ill representative? That`s the defense so far.

FLATLY: Or child predator, because this is not just any session of Congress in which they have covered this up. This is a session of Congress in which the Republican leadership has campaigned consistently -- as you and I both know, because we`ve testified in the hearings -- on the sexual exploitation of child over the Internet.

They are immersed in the case law. Foley was involved in a major piece of legislation. And allowing Mark Foley to continue to serve in Congress not only raises two questions: One, what about other kids? Who said he was just e-mailing pages? And, two, how do we know he wasn`t acting on it? We didn`t know.

But ultimately allowing him to be any kind of a manager of this bill, any kind of a leader in Congress on the issue is sort of like letting a member of the Ku Klux Klan manage the Civil Rights Act. There is no excuse for this.

GRACE: Out to Dr. Gail Saltz, psychiatrist. My concern is that, very often, victims do not come forward, much less child victims, much less boy victims that are now growing into manhood. Response?

SALTZ: That`s correct. And, unfortunately, while it`s not justification for doing this, those boys who may have been approached, may have been solicited, and who knows what else, they may grow up to do the same thing. So, of course, it`s not justification for what he did, but what he brings up for what happened to him, it does lead to powerful pervasive fantasies to unfortunately do what in psychiatric terms we call "identify with the aggressor" or do the same thing.

But you`re right. There`s tremendous shame involved with this, and rarely do these kids actually come forward.

GRACE: Very quickly out to the lines. Leslie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Leslie.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. I have two quick questions. Is he protected as long as he`s in rehab? Because that seems like what everybody does. And can he be charged in the District of Columbia and Florida?

GRACE: What about it, Richard Herman?

HERMAN: Not protected in rehab. Absolutely no protection being in rehab right now, and he probably can be charged in both jurisdictions based on those statutes. Absolutely.

And, Nancy, anybody that protected him is going to be just as liable as him, but I think you`ll agree with me: At a minimum, this was classic grooming behavior.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: There was absolutely never any inappropriate sexual contact with any minor. He has acknowledged full responsibility for the inappropriate e-mails and inappropriate IMs. There never has been any sexual contact with a minor, and any suggestion that Mark Foley is a pedophile is false, categorically false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I`m not so sure he`s home free, Marc Klaas -- Marc is the president of Beyond Missing -- as Mike Brooks was pointing out, there are Internet crimes in Florida that could govern this, such as solicitation of a minor.

KLAAS: And wouldn`t it be ironic if the very laws that he championed are the laws that put him behind bars for years and years?

I`d like to speak to a couple of points here very quickly. Number one is that he has taken the cowards` way out here, and I think people have to understand that his initial excuse for this behavior of his was exactly the same excuse that Richard Allen Davis used when he murdered my daughter, Polly. "The devil made me do it. The bottle made me do it." And I just can`t believe that these people get away with this stuff time and time again.

But I think something else that really bothers me about this is that, on the very day that he resigned and all of these revelations exploded, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which has been his best friend in Congress for the last 10 years, put out a statement that said that he will be sorely missed by the nation, he`ll be sorely missed by Florida, that he was a hard-working and effective congressman, and that he will be missed. By who?

And how can the one organization that is charged with protecting America`s children be the only organization in America or the only entity in America that refuses to see the writing on the wall and that gives this guy an excuse?

GRACE: No, I don`t think they`re the only ones. And I`m a big supporter of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. But I don`t understand why he`s getting what I equate to kid-glove treatment, Marc Klaas. And that`s clearly what this is, just like Kennedy driving through a cement blockade.

KLAAS: It seems to me that there has been just a corrupt culture that`s been percolating in Washington, D.C., for quite some period of time now, and it may be time for a House cleaning. I mean, this issue was brought to the leadership at least twice, Nancy.

GRACE: I like it, "a House cleaning." I`m standing by a long...

KLAAS: It was brought to the leadership twice, and they ignored it.

GRACE: I`m standing by with the panel to see what will happen next regarding Mr. Foley. Thank you to my guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END