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Nancy Grace
Newborn Found Alive in Trash Bag
Aired October 09, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking developments regarding a brand- new baby, just hours old, abandoned in a Boston backyard in serious condition tonight, the baby under 24-hour watch at a local hospital after being exposed to the elements, nothing protecting the baby but a trash bag. The miracle? He`s alive. The investigation? Who left a baby to die?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He went from his mother`s womb to a garbage bag outside in the cold of a littered backyard in Roslindale. Baby Jordan, umbilical cord and placenta still attached, cried for at least 14 hours through the night until nearby residents found him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could have walked in, handed the baby to a hospital worker, policeman or fireman, just turned around and walked away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Out to Boston. Standing by, Maria Cramer, reporter with "The Boston Globe." Maria, welcome. What happened?
MARIA CRAMER, "BOSTON GLOBE": Hi, Nancy. Well, police yesterday reported -- responded to a 911 call from a neighborhood in Boston called Roslindale. Neighbors had found a baby, a little boy, wrapped in a plastic bag, and around his head was just a towel. The baby was very cold, and apparently, he had been there for at least 13-and-a-half hours.
GRACE: Now, you`re saying wrapped in a plastic bag. You`re talking like a Hefty black trash bag?
CRAMER: Right, what looked like a regular trash bag. The baby had actually been placed inside, its face peeking out of the mouth of the bag, almost as if, you know, they wanted to make sure that he got air. And there was just a light blue towel wrapped around his head.
GRACE: Around his head?
CRAMER: Uh-huh.
GRACE: Now, question, Maria. How are they placing the baby at just hours old?
CRAMER: Well, that`s uncertain at this point. EMS officials, they`re the ones who were judging, maybe based on the placenta, how old the baby was. But they put it anywhere between 24 and 48 hours.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Dr. Holly Phillips, internist. Dr. Phillips, welcome back to the show. Tell me, how can you determine whether a child is under 24 hours old? I mean, how do they know that?
DR. HOLLY PHILLIPS, INTERNIST: Well, they will look at the condition of both the placenta and the umbilical cord. The further along the deterioration of both of those organs has gone, the longer you know that the baby has been alive or the longer time has elapsed since it`s been born.
GRACE: And back to Maria Cramer with "The Boston Globe." Maria, you`re saying the baby was under 24 hours old at the time it was found. Was the placenta attached to the baby?
CRAMER: Actually, the baby was 48 hours...
GRACE: Oh, OK.
CRAMER: ... is what officials say now. And yes, the baby was found with both the placenta and the umbilical cord still attached.
GRACE: What does that mean, Dr. Phillips?
PHILLIPS: If the baby was 48 hours old, you know, this is a really difficult situation. If the baby had been out there for a very long period of time, it could have dehydration. It could certainly have hypothermia. We know that the temperatures hit as low as 40 degrees. So there are multiple, multiple medical problems that could be facing this child at this time.
GRACE: Here`s what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That young woman yesterday could have gone to a fire station, police station or a hospital.
Where that was, they were all about a mile away.
Basically, the way I understand the procedures, they bring the child here. It`s pretty much a "no questions asked" type of thing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could have went to Baby Safe Haven. She could adopt. She could have gave it to one of her family members, you know what I mean? I mean, there`s so many options out there the young teenagers hear every day. I mean, at least she could have done one of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Maria Cramer with "The Boston Globe." So explain to me where the baby was abandoned exactly. It`s in a residential area, but it`s in a yard?
CRAMER: Right. The baby was found in a lot behind a house that`s been empty for quite a while. The house had burned several weeks ago, several months ago, and so nobody was living in the house. And this baby was found in a vacant lot behind this house. And residents who lived right behind this yard found the child.
GRACE: Back to Holly Phillips. Dr. Phillips, it`s my understanding baby Jordan, as it has been named for now, is under 24-hour watch. The baby is in serious condition. Why? Because of being exposed to the elements, would you think, Doctor?
PHILLIPS: Certainly. You know, I really think that the two biggest medical issues are dehydration and hypothermia. You know, babies are really -- have very, very -- are very sensitive to cold. That`s why we, of course, wrap them in blankets, put hats on their heads and place them in incubators when they`re first born. So to be outside overnight in the cold could really cause some serious medical issues.
GRACE: Maria, how did the neighbors find the baby?
CRAMER: It`s a very strange story. What happened was, the night before, Saturday night, one resident described the sounds of a cat wailing. She thought it was an injured animal. It kept her up all night, and then the next day, she just -- she was so disturbed by it, she decided to go searching for the sounds. And she caused such a commotion that other residents went around to see what she was looking for, and that`s when they saw this plastic bag and it appeared to be moving. And then they called 911, peered inside the bag and saw it was a baby.
GRACE: So she saw a trash bag wiggling around?
CRAMER: Right. Right. It appeared to be the baby`s legs moving.
GRACE: Oh!
CRAMER: And it was these very soft sounds, and the sounds grew fainter...
GRACE: Oh!
CRAMER: ... and fainter.
GRACE: So the baby was in the backyard...
CRAMER: Correct.
GRACE: ... of the home that was being renovated. And let me get the timeline down, Maria. I understand the neighbors heard the baby starting around 9:30 PM?
CRAMER: At 9:30 PM on Saturday, the night before, correct.
GRACE: And they go find the baby at what time?
CRAMER: They found the baby at about 11:00 AM.
GRACE: And -- OK, what can you tell me about the baby? It`s a boy, I know that much.
CRAMER: It is a boy. They described it as a very healthy-sized boy, chubby, strong. They said -- they described it as having strong arms, maybe 20 inches long. The hospital has not released the weight of the baby, so we`re not sure exactly how large he is. But he`s got dark hair, and they described him as being quite handsome.
GRACE: Now, is it...
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Little thing! Maria, it`s my understanding also that tracker dogs were brought out and they followed a scent. What happened?
CRAMER: Apparently, the scent led nowhere. They don`t exactly know what the dog was chasing because they found nothing at the end of that scent.
GRACE: OK. Now, it`s understanding -- correct me if I`m wrong, Maria, because you`re right there on the scene...
CRAMER: Right.
GRACE: Maria, I thought the dogs led them to an apartment complex. No?
CRAMER: Well, the dogs did sniff around the area and then also sniffed around -- the dog sniffed around a dumpster at a nearby apartment complex. And the people who live at that apartment complex, they have been interviewed. The people who live around the street where the baby was found, Reading (ph) Street, have also been interviewed. So police have been scouring the area, looking for any clues as to who this baby might be related to, who its mother might be.
GRACE: And before we go out to Karole in Utah, Dr. Robi Ludwig with us, psychotherapist and author. Dr. Robi, the hospital was only 1.5 miles from where this baby was abandoned.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. You have to remember, with these kinds of cases, very often, the women are not connected to their own pregnancy. So there`s a denial of pregnancy, and until it`s too late. When they give birth to the child, it`s almost like they`re in a state of panic and just want to rid themselves of the child so that they can go on with their denied state, which is they are not a mother, they are not a parent.
GRACE: But it doesn`t have to be that way. In about 38 states -- I`ll get the exact number for you -- we have what is called the safe haven law, where you can legally abandon a baby.
Let`s go to the lines. Karole in Utah. Hi, Karole.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, since a person or persons dropped off baby Jordan and didn`t use the safe haven process, can officials take the baby`s umbilical cord, run DNA on it and match it to the national database?
GRACE: Interesting, but -- to Mike Brooks, former fed, G-man. Mike, wouldn`t they have to have the mom in the database?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Absolutely. You can`t...
GRACE: She`d have to be basically a felon.
BROOKS: That`s it. And if the person is not in the database, there`s nothing to compare it to. But you know -- and I talked with Boston police today, Nancy, and they said that they basically don`t have any leads whatsoever right now to go on. They did a canvas of that area where the dog took them, but that`s about it. They said, you know, when it comes to charges, they don`t -- if they ever find the person who did this, you know, it could be abandonment. But the investigators will determine exactly what charges will be brought against this woman, should they ever find her.
GRACE: Take a look at this map. No safe haven laws, there is I believe Alaska, Hawaii, Nebraska0 -- oh, is that it? And D.C. That`s right. I knew I was -- your old stomping grounds, Mike Brooks, no safe haven law.
Let`s go out to Denise Monteiro, spokesperson for Department of Social Services. Welcome. What can you tell me about this baby situation?
DENISE MONTEIRO, DEPT. OF SOCIAL SERVICES: Well, the baby is serious but stable. It was -- they spent all last night stabilizing the baby. And you know, we consider it a miracle because it was the coldest night since last fall. So it is a miracle. Long-term prognosis would be...
GRACE: It is a miracle. You hit it. You hit the nail on the head. This baby protected by nothing but a plastic trash bag, dumped in a Boston backyard, that yard littered with broken glass, leaving this newborn just hours old next to a chain-link fence, as Denise Monteiro just telling us, one of the coldest nights in Boston for this time of year. Go ahead, Denise.
MONTEIRO: So at any rate, you know, we, you know, closely monitored the baby. We don`t know what the long-term prognosis is, however, we are immediately hopeful because he became -- he went from critical to serious overnight. So it`s a great sign for us.
GRACE: Why? Why, Denise? Why did he go into critical condition?
MONTEIRO: Well, he came in as critical condition.
GRACE: Right.
MONTEIRO: And then he improved overnight and was upgraded to serious.
GRACE: But he was a healthy baby at birth, apparently. So why did he get in critical physical condition just lying there? Was it because of the elements, because of the cold?
MONTEIRO: Well, I`m sure. And also, I`m sure, you know, there`s dehydration and there`s hypothermia.
GRACE: I just can`t get over who would leave a baby -- and it`s 1.5 miles from a hospital. Also, there are the safe haven laws there where you`re taking your calls.
Let`s go out to Mike -- oh, PS, Denise Monteiro has emergency custody of the baby right now, with Social Services. To Mike Morrisey. He is an expert in the safe haven laws in New England. Explain, Mike.
MICHAEL MORRISEY, BABY SAFE HAVEN NEW ENGLAND: Well, the Baby Safe Haven law in Massachusetts is that young woman could have gone about a mile, mile-and-a-quarter to the fire station, to a hospital or a police station. They were all actually about a mile-and-a-half away. And she had to hand the baby to a hospital worker, a policeman or a fireman. You can`t leave it outside the door, especially here in New England in the middle of the winter, where it can be sub-zero.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: There`s no criminal liability whatsoever, correct, Mike?
MORRISEY: Absolutely no criminal liability to the young woman. She`s not going to be asked any questions. If she doesn`t want to answer any questions, she can say absolutely nothing, hand the baby to the policeman, fireman or hospital worker and walk away. We`ve said, you know, put a hood over your head, you know, the big baggy sweatshirt hood over your head, so if you don`t want to be recognized -- it`s just we want to see the babies given to somebody where they`re going to be safe first, and then we`ll work towards a reunification or the baby into an adoption plan.
GRACE: Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Reunification? Why do I want to give a baby to someone that leaves it in a backyard? Why would I want to reunify the baby with that?
MORRISEY: Well, I`m talking about the safe haven surrendered babies...
GRACE: Oh, I see.
MORRISEY: ... the ones that are brought to the hospital or the fire station or the police station.
GRACE: OK.
MORRISEY: You know, it`s up to the DSS. It`s up to the -- it`s up to the judicial system here in Massachusetts as to what`s going to happen to baby Jordan.
GRACE: And God help us! God help us on that one, Mike Morrisey!
Let`s go to the lines. Theresa in Virginia. Hi, Theresa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wonder if the baby was injured because this case is an exact mirror case of a case we have, a baby Grace that was thrown in a dumpster. The baby was murdered. And that coroner just came out with that information. The poor baby was thrown in a dumpster behind a house that was being renovated. And you know...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Good question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don`t know who the baby is. This was months later.
GRACE: What about it, Denise Monteiro? Denise is a spokesperson with the Department of Social Services. Was baby Jordan injured in any way, or was he only -- now in serious condition, but only in critical condition because of the elements?
MONTEIRO: Well, from what I`m told, there`s no reason to believe that the child was traumatized, other than the trauma which he was, you know, born under. So no, at this point.
GRACE: Just -- it`s hard for me to take in leaving a baby, when so many people in our country pay thousands and thousands of dollars to have a baby. Let me tell you about this baby. He`s been named baby Jordan. I`ll tell you why in a moment. Baby boy Jordan is approximately two days old as of tonight. He is either white or Hispanic. He`s wrapped -- just his head was wrapped in a light blue towel, wearing nothing but a black trash bag, the umbilical cord and placenta still attached. The miracle is a neighbor heard what she thought was the mewing of a cat, and finally the next day, goes out to take care of the little kitty cat and sees the trash bag wiggling around. It is a baby. It is alive. Unlike so many cases we bring you, the miracle is the baby is alive.
Let`s go out to the lawyers, unchaining the lawyers tonight. Let`s go to Atlanta lawyer Ray Giudice and Seattle high-profile lawyer Anne Bremner. Ray, police are saying they want the mom to come in to treat her for medical reasons. OK.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: They want to slap a pair of cuffs on Mommy, Ray.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I would first hire Dr. Ludwig as my expert in this case because I agree with her completely. We probably have a teenage girl here that is totally disaffected from her family, friends. Maybe nobody else even knew she was pregnant. There`s probably no father that we`re aware of, of this child. And this was probably a panicked reaction to this pregnancy. Now, that doesn`t excuse the behavior. I agree with the safe haven law...
GRACE: It sounds like you`re trying to excuse it.
GIUDICE: No. No, that`s...
GRACE: Panic, no father.
GIUDICE: Nancy...
GRACE: You know, there are millions of moms that are single moms in this country...
GIUDICE: That`s right.
GRACE: ... and they don`t throw the baby away in a trash bag!
GIUDICE: And many of them have prenatal care, families that are involved and a way to deal with a pregnancy. And I`ll bet this teenager did not.
GRACE: OK, that`s a great closing argument. Back to the original question. It was beautiful, pastor!
Now, to Anne Bremner, what charges? You know they don`t want to -- the police don`t want the mom to come in to treat her for medical reasons, all right?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. No.
GRACE: They want to book her.
BREMNER: That`s right. And the thing is, you know, in this country where you can have amnesty for your library books and amnesty, you know, for your parking tickets, you can have amnesty with the safe haven law with a baby, the fact is, in this case, you`re looking at potential negligence with respect to attempted homicide, child abandonment, et cetera. This is a very serious matter, and they want to find that mom and find her fast.
GRACE: OK, so nobody`s giving me the charges. The two defense attorneys don`t want to talk about possible charges. But we will bring it up when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mireya Jimenez heard the screaming all night. It was coming from the back of this abandoned house next to hers. She thought it might be an animal, but by morning, the cries were still there. So she put a call in to her neighbor, Edwin Avandano.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see that piece of (INAUDIBLE) there on the ground?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On that side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He found the source. It was a trash bag on the ground, something moving inside it. He called 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spoke with that person that was there. You know, he say, Open it, take a look. (INAUDIBLE) All right. I said now after (INAUDIBLE) it`s a baby. It`s a baby. It`s a baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Here are the possible charges: abandonment of an infant, assault and battery on a child, wanton reckless behavior, creating a risk of serious bodily harm, abandonment and non-support.
Welcome back. Breaking developments out of Boston, a newborn baby boy left in the Boston chill in a backyard, nothing to protect him but a trash bag. Out to Mike Brooks. Why is it, Mike -- you`re a former D.C. police officer, former fed -- why are police putting out the bulletin tonight they want the mom to come in for medical treatment?
CRAMER: Well, they want to talk to her. They want to talk to her, Nancy, and (INAUDIBLE) the investigators, as I said today, after talking with the Boston P.D. Then the investigators will decide, you know, the circumstances around the abandonment. But you know -- but you got to -- but the bottom line is, Nancy, this woman threw this baby away like the garbage, and I think police want to talk to her so they can arrest her and then file charges against her. I mean, if I was an investigator, that would be what I`d want to do.
GRACE: Well, that`s certainly not leading her in with a carrot and sugar cube, Mike Brooks. I mean, that`s not going to bring the mom in.
To Mike Morrisey, expert on Baby Safe Haven in New England. Mike -- I`m sorry. Mike, can you hear me?
MORRISEY: Yes, I can.
GRACE: Mike, how long does the amnesty go? How long -- does she have to drop it off at a certain place? How does that work?
MORRISEY: Well, it varies state to state. We`re talking about 47 states. So in Massachusetts, the baby can be up to seven days old. A lot of states are 72 hours, first three days. Some go up to 30 days. One state goes up to a year. But we`ve seen over 600 babies surrendered nationally. And usually, it`s in the first three or four or five hours that we either see an abandonment, or what we`ve seen a lot more of are safe haven surrenderings.
GRACE: Back to Maria Cramer with "The Boston Globe." Is it true that the neighbors want to adopt the baby?
CRAMER: Yes. Many of the neighbors -- some of the neighbors have been talking about that. They immediately fell in love with this child, and they said, you know, If she doesn`t want it, I`ll take it. One said -- one woman who`s visiting from the Dominican Republic said, I`ll take him back to Santo Domingo with me, so...
GRACE: Tell me about the neighborhood, Maria. Is there a high school close by?
CRAMER: No, but there is a police station close by. There`s a fire station close by. The hospital is also nearby. It is a family street. You know, it`s got what we call in Boston triple-deckers, three-story houses. And it`s a very nice-looking neighborhood, tree-lined, and it looks like a good place for families.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now baby Jordan`s mother faces potential criminal prosecution. Police continue searching for her as baby Jordan`s condition improves. And safe haven advocates acknowledge they have to better get the word out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to promote the law 24/7 all the time because young people grow up. Somebody two years ago, when the law passed, might have been 12 years old and didn`t care, didn`t know, had no reason to want the information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A newborn baby boy left in the Boston chill overnight. He gets to the hospital in critical condition. He`s upgraded to serious tonight, exposed to the elements overnight, nothing protecting him except a thin trash bag.
Out to the lines. Al in Ohio. Hi, Al.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Quick question. How come we`ve never heard of anyone successfully using the safe haven law?
GRACE: Al, Al, Al! That was one of my questions when I was preparing for tonight. It has been successfully used. Tell me all about it, Mike Morrisey.
MORRISEY: Well, some states will announce that there`s been a baby surrendered almost immediately, within a day or two. In Massachusetts, we just announced yesterday that there were two babies safely surrendered in Massachusetts in this calendar year. Last year, we took a month or so. Sometimes you don`t want to say that one`s happened because a young woman, the next young woman that may go to a hospital or fire station or police station, may be afraid, thinking, Oh, I`m going to be on the 6:00 o`clock news tomorrow. So some states like Massachusetts are withholding the information just to make sure that we`re, you know, a little more safe than sorry.
GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Dr. Robi, they mentioned something about a possible reunification with the mom. Why?
LUDWIG: Yes. Well, they have many studies that show that children really do want to be with their biological parent, and they want that biological parent to be...
GRACE: In a trash bag in the backyard?
LUDWIG: Well, believe it or not, it can heal a wound of going from being unwanted to wanted. So if a parent is willing to get the proper care and treatment...
GRACE: In a trash bag!
LUDWIG: ... to learn how to be the right parent and get healthy, they can get there with the right help.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He went from his mother`s womb to a garbage bag, outside in the cold of a littered backyard in Roslindale. Baby Jordan, umbilical cord and placenta cord still attached, cried for at least 14 hours through the night until nearby residents found him Sunday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could have walked in, handed the baby to a hospital worker, policeman or fireman, turned around and walked away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It would have been so easy to take this baby just 1.5 miles away to a hospital. But instead, this baby boy, now named baby boy Jordan, was left in the Boston cold overnight, wearing nothing but a trash bag. Only when a neighbor heard a mewing sound thinking it was a kitten did she find the trash bag wiggling in this backyard, an abandoned backyard, with the baby in the bag.
Back out to Denise Monteiro, spokesperson for the Department of Social Services, what will happen to baby Jordan now?
MONTEIRO: Well, on Tuesday, tomorrow -- today`s a holiday. So tomorrow we`ll go in and get full custody of the child, physical custody. And when he is better -- and hopefully -- we will release him and we will have prescreened some potential adoptive parents.
What we try to do with children that are abandoned or surrendered in safe haven is have a list of people that have been prescreened, background- checked, home-checked so that we can put them in a pre-adoptive home. So that`s the only home that they can be in. So it`s a permanent -- and our commissioner is very much for permanency.
GRACE: So the baby doesn`t go from home to home to home.
MONTEIRO: Exactly.
GRACE: Well, what about all of the rules that typically apply, Denise, where anytime from two to three years beyond this point, the natural mother can come back and take the baby away like in adoptions?
MONTEIRO: Well, it`s a little different in the state. I`m not sure how the other states work but...
GRACE: That`s with an adoption, so this is completely different. But how does it work if the mom shows up?
MONTEIRO: Well, what our goal is -- our goal is, you know, we have lists of people that are prescreened. And we will -- one of them is waiting right now. We`re probably going to speak to them tomorrow when this child is released. And that`s our protocol, and that`s the way we work.
Now, on the other side of a coin, if a family member of this girl or the girl comes forward, you know, that would be the court`s determination. But we would complete what our protocol is, and that is to have a child in a pre-adoptive home be adopted permanently.
GRACE: Are they parents that already have children? Or do they just want a baby? What kind of family will get this little baby boy?
MONTEIRO: Well, that`s a good point, because we have -- you know, I`ve gotten floods of calls, people, you know, wanting to adopt this baby.
GRACE: Well, we want him here, too.
MONTEIRO: The most important thing is, is that we have foster parents who have gone through our training, pre-adoptive homes, our training, and they have worked with us along the way. Some of them are childless; some of them have children.
However, they have already gone through. And although it`s really nice that, you know, people want to call and are responsive, we have people -- we recruit, and we desperately need foster homes and pre-adoptive homes. So if there`s -- you know, so if there`s people out there that want to, maybe the next baby can be yours. But right now...
GRACE: I pray to God there`s not going to be another baby thrown away in a trash bag. Hey, Denise, have you seen the baby? You`ve seen him, right?
MONTEIRO: No, I have personally not seen him. I spent all night on the phone with them, and I have not -- I`ve been actually pretty busy with the press, so I have not.
GRACE: And, also, he`s still under 24-hour watch in the hospital.
To Dr. Holly Phillips, internist, Doctor, I`m still not understanding what being out overnight, other than a hypothermia issue, would happen to a newborn baby. I mean, what happens in those first -- now it`s 48.
PHILLIPS: Sure.
GRACE: But he was less than 24 hours old when he was found abandoned in a trash bag.
PHILLIPS: Right, right. Well, he was described as being in critical condition when he was rescued. You know, it does make perfect sense to me. The word "miracle" has been thrown out. And I do think it`s a miracle that he has survived.
The first few hours of life are so fragile for children that, to go for a 24-hour period or even longer without water, without food, and in cold conditions, can severely slow down the heart rate. He could have gotten frostbite. He really would have had a myriad of medical issues.
GRACE: And what would frostbite -- immediately, while many of us might lose a toe or a finger, what would happen to a baby with frostbite?
PHILLIPS: Well, everything is just magnified in children, particularly in infants. What he would be facing would be much more severe than what anyone else would face in the same situation.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Kathy in Florida, hi, Kathy.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is, how soon will the baby find placement? I`m a foster parent in Florida. Love to take the child.
GRACE: You`re a foster parent?
CALLER: Yes, I am in Florida.
GRACE: You know what, Kathy? God bless you.
Denise, did you say the baby`s going pretty quickly to foster care, right?
MONTEIRO: Well, foster care would be -- it would be a pre-adoptive home.
GRACE: Right, so I...
(CROSSTALK)
MONTEIRO: So a foster parent, yes. So any foster parent can be a pre-adoptive parent. It`s the same training; it`s the same certification. And thank you for the foster parent calling.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop and former fed, Mike, what are the cops looking for right now? If those dogs hit a dead end -- I mean, do we really even want to find the mom now? She`s going to be prosecuted for abandonment. And what about, three years from now, her coming forward and trying to take the baby away from the adoptive parents?
BROOKS: Well, first thing right now, Nancy, after talking with the Boston P.D. today, they don`t have much at all to go on right now. They said they`re getting a few leads in, but they really don`t have much to go on.
Now, yes, I would still want to have to get the woman in, find out what the circumstances were, talk to her to see if there are going to be charges filed against her or not. I mean, that`s the law.
Now, down the road, if we do find out who it is and then she tries to come back and take the baby back, well, that`s why the courts are there. And that`s why we have the defense attorneys. But, you know, the law enforcement, they want to talk to her right now. They want to find out who this is, and if possible maybe file charges and arrest this woman.
GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers, Anne Bremner and Ray Giudice.
Anne, why should this mom ever get the baby back?
BREMNER: You know, a mother should be with her child and vice versa, Nancy. You know what I was just thinking about with her...
GRACE: How about an abusive mom? You think she should have the baby?
BREMNER: Well, but, Nancy, you know, the thing is, is that parents can do all kinds of terrible things in their lives, but the question is it`s up to the courts to decide what`s in the best interests of the child, with the presumption of the natural parents, of course, Nancy, being involved...
GRACE: Elizabeth, put a camera on Anne Bremner, please. I just want to see if she`s actually saying this with a straight face.
BREMNER: No, I am. But, Nancy, you know what? What about this? We don`t know what happened. What if she thought that she gave birth and the baby was dead? What if she is mentally ill? Nancy, I`m just saying we don`t know. We can sit here and speculate about what happened with this woman, but, for gosh sake, for her to do...
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GRACE: You`re the one speculating. I already know he was found in a trash bag in an empty lot covered in broken glass.
BREMNER: OK, but, Nancy -- couldn`t that be consistent with her thinking that the child was dead? Couldn`t that be consistent with somebody that`s got not in their right mind, which happens? Because otherwise, she`s got the amnesty there in Boston, and she could simply drop the child in a hospital, and she didn`t.
Nancy, I`m just saying that there`s two sides to every story...
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GRACE: Please, just say it.
BREMNER: ... and there`s one for this woman potentially here. I`m just saying potentially, as a defense lawyer, that`s possible.
GRACE: And to Ray Giudice, let`s jump off that cliff Anne led us to the edge of. So if the mother`s mentally unstable, that`s the reason you should give the baby back? Good argument, Anne.
GIUDICE: Let`s not just talk about taking and giving babies. There`s legal parental rights. And until that mother`s legal parental rights are terminated by a civil court -- and let me throw in a curveball. Somewhere out there is a biological father who also has parental rights. And we`re just not going to say, "Well, somebody treated this child badly." And, look, we all pray for the child and want him to be healthy, and we hope it all works out well.
But that father has parental rights. And if he shows up tomorrow and says, "I want the baby," then there`s going to be no court action taking him away unless you can show he`s unfit. So this is a legal determination of fitness to be a parent. And we`re not going to decide this tonight on TV. It`s for a civil court, usually a probate court, to determine.
GRACE: What about it, Dr. Robi Ludwig? Weigh in on the psychological side.
LUDWIG: Well, this was not quite neonaticide, because the child miraculously survived. But what we have found with mothers who have committed neonaticide is it`s due a lot to circumstances, fear that they`ll be found out as being pregnant or that they themselves will lose love or relationship, and that later on in the lives, when their circumstances are right, they can be great parents.
GRACE: Very quickly to Kathy in Ohio, hi, Kathy.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. This is Kathy from Patasco, Ohio (ph). A quick question. Are there any statistics nationwide on the number of babies being turned over through the safe haven law?
GRACE: Good question. Mike Morrisey?
MORRISEY: Yes, there are. Actually, we have over 600 babies that have been brought to safe havens under the 47 different states, and these go back to 1999. And the most recent laws just have been passed in Vermont this summer, so some states have had none, some states have had a couple of dozen, actually. So it`s been quite successful.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police held a press conference to underscore their concern about the disappearance of 21-year-old Michele Gardner-Quinn. She was last seen on Main Street near the Edmonds school (ph) at 2:15 Saturday morning after a night of socializing with her college friends. The Virginia resident was scheduled to meet with her parents Saturday for dinner. When she didn`t show up, they called the police.
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GRACE: It was parents` weekend, and she didn`t show. Turns out she was last seen as she approached her own dormitory.
Out to Adam Silverman, reporter with the "Burlington Free Press." "The Free Press," tonight is their first visit with our show, so thank you, Adam Silverman, for being with us. What can you tell me about Michele?
ADAM SILVERMAN, REPORTER, "BURLINGTON FREE PRESS": Well, Nancy, I`ve talked to her friends a lot over the past couple of days. She, by all accounts, was a good student, well-traveled, spent a lot of time overseas. She studied in Brazil and Costa Rica and South Africa. She just transferred up to the University of Vermont from Goucher College in Baltimore at the beginning of this academic year. And everyone has nothing but praise for her and speak very highly of her.
GRACE: Adam, it`s incredible that she`s traveled all over the world places many of us have never been, and successfully, safely. And she gets home to U of V and goes missing on an open street. Explain to the viewers what happened. Everybody, take a look at this young girl, Michele Gardner- Quinn, just 21 years old, now missing. Go ahead, Adam.
SILVERMAN: Well, this sort of thing, of course, is extremely unusual for a small town like Burlington, Vermont. We`re a city of 39,000 residents, and this sort of thing happens very infrequently. She had joined her parents for dinner on Friday night. And then, after she and her folks parted ways, she went out with a number of friends to celebrate a friend`s 21st birthday.
And then, as she was leaving that group, she was trying to find some other friends, and making some cell phone calls, and eventually couldn`t find the other group of friends. So she decided to walk back up from downtown Burlington, which is down a hill from the main campus of the University of Vermont. It`s up a hill through residential neighborhoods.
So she decided to start walking back up the hill toward the university and made it just a couple of blocks from really the main part of downtown, still about a half to three-quarters of a mile away from her dorm room, and that was the last time anybody reported seeing her.
GRACE: And, Adam, it`s my understanding her cell phone was dead, so she actually had used a friend`s cell phone, so the triangulation or pinging, as Mike Brooks can explain for us, if a cell phone is on, that`s not a possibility.
Adam, what can you tell us about a white male, about six feet tall, and a white Subaru hatchback-type vehicle, gold trim, gold pinstriped, possibly with a green Vermont tag? What can you tell us about this guy?
SILVERMAN: Nancy, this is a man that Burlington police said that they are looking for and hoping to interview. They say that they don`t know whether or not this man is involved in any way with the incident, but there was a suspicious event that was reported to police about 20 minutes after Michele went missing. This is about 2:35 a.m. Saturday, almost 72 hours ago now.
And this man pulled up in his car alongside another woman who he did not know and asked that woman to get in the car with him. And the woman refused and then, when she reported the incident later on to police, she said that the man appeared to be alone in his car at the time.
GRACE: And how far away was that from where Michele was last seen?
SILVERMAN: Nancy, that was almost exactly one mile to the north.
GRACE: Not far at all.
Out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. police officer, also former fed, you actually found her MySpace. What did you learn about this young girl?
BROOKS: Well, there really wasn`t much on there, Nancy. It kind of talked a little bit about her college background and some of her friends. And I also spoke with a source in Arlington, Virginia, where she come -- in her hometown.
And they`re basically saying she had a strong family, strong family ties. She was an only child, did extremely well in school, extremely well- traveled, apparently had no mental history at all. You know, that`s one of the first things that law enforcement will take a look at when someone goes missing. But she seemed to be very, very stable. And having traveled the world and so many of these third world hot spots, if you will, probably knew how to handle herself very well.
GRACE: Take a listen to what police have to say.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michele Gardner-Quinn was last seen during the early morning hours of Saturday, October 7th, in the downtown area of Burlington. Michele is 21 years of age, 5`8" tall, and approximately 135 pounds. She has a stud piercing in her nose and was last seen wearing a grey pea coat, green button-up cardigan sweater, light blue t-shirt, and a black Puma purse with white straps.
Investigators have been working around the clock following leads. No specific suspects have been identified at this time. We consider Michele`s disappearance to be highly suspicious, and time is essential, as this investigation enters its third day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Adam Silverman with the "Burlington Free Press," Adam, it`s my understanding that the parents did not report her missing until the Saturday evening at dinnertime. Why?
SILVERMAN: What I understand, from talking with her friends, that her parents through police have declined to comment. They don`t so far want to be pressed in upon by the media.
In talking with her friends yesterday and today, I`m told that each group thought Michele was with the other. The parents thought she was with the friends, and the friends thought that she was with the parents. And then, as they had a day`s worth of plans, Michele and her folks, when she eventually didn`t show up, you know, for the latest in that string of events, that dinner, then they finally became concerned enough to call the authorities.
GRACE: That makes perfect sense to me. Let`s go out to the lawyers, Ray Giudice, Anne Bremner. The problem with that, as innocent as it was on their part is, a lot of time has been lost, Anne.
BREMNER: That`s absolutely right. And the thing is, it sounds like there`s nothing about her that caused her to go missing. The fact is that there`s someone random that she comes up against, and she`s gone. And the clues are gone, likewise gone very quickly.
GRACE: And back to Ray Giudice, Ray, there`s no coincidence in criminal law, period.
GIUDICE: That`s right.
GRACE: And, Ray, the fact that this guy, repeat, a white male in a white Subaru hatchback-type car, gold pinstripe, gold outward -- what would you say? What`s on it, Ellie, something else that was gold?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was it the wheels? I don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: The trim. Something else along the side trim, Vermont tag probably. The fact that it was so close, Ray, that says a lot in the same time frame.
GIUDICE: Yes, it does. And, you know, these are crimes of opportunity that happen so quick around college campuses, parking decks where women are attacked, sexually assaulted. And something that Mike Brooks said really hit home to me. After living in some very dangerous spots, she may have had a little false sense of security there in idyllic Burlington.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there was an umbilical cord attached?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, and the placenta, too, everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By now, Yamadi Kelly (ph) had come out to help. She just had little Omar three weeks ago. She offered his blanket to keep the infant warm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Boston and the story of baby Jordan, left alone in the elements in the Boston cold, wearing nothing but a trash bag. Calls still coming in on that. Let`s take them, Liz.
To Patricia in North Carolina. Hi, Patricia.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering if they said on the news what the race of the baby was?
GRACE: Yes, they believe it is either white or Hispanic.
To Mike Brooks, former D.C. police officer, former fed, with the safe haven laws, do you believe that they work? The stats show they work some. But from my point of view, I see so many baby homicides.
BROOKS: You do, Nancy. But, you know, when you have 600 babies that have been saved in these 47 states since 1999, I would say that`s a very significant number. But, yes, you do have many homicide deaths. But again, the problem is, is there enough education getting the programs out there in the states?
GRACE: Safe haven laws, what we`re talking about tonight. Baby Jordan in serious condition in a hospital tonight.
Dr. Robi Ludwig, Ray Giudice and Anne Bremner took a crack at it. You want to try regarding the mom getting the baby back?
LUDWIG: Well, first of all, she`d have to come forward and admit that she actually had a child. And then she would have to probably go through some therapy and parenting classes to figure out how to be a parent, because at this point we don`t even know if she`s psychologically bonded to the child.
GRACE: So you believe there is a chance this mom that threw the baby away to die could get the baby back?
LUDWIG: It`s a possibility, if she comes forward, says she wants help to be a good parent.
GRACE: It`s not Halloween yet. Don`t scare me. We are staying on the baby Jordan story.
Tonight, we stop to remember Army Sergeant Gabriel DeRoo, just 25, Paw Paw, Michigan, second tour of duty. He put his studies on hold to join the military, receiving multiple medals, including the Army Commendation Medal. He leaves behind a large, loving, grieving family, four sisters. He leaves behind a widow and a brand-new baby boy. Gabriel DeRoo, American hero.
Thank you to our guests. But most important, thank you to you for being with us. God bless baby Jordan. NANCY GRACE signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow. Good night, friend.
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