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North Korea Threat; Examining School Safety; Army Changes Recruiting Standards; Kim Jong-il's Story

Aired October 10, 2006 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the NEWSROOM. Good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Heidi Collins.

HARRIS: You can watch events as they unfold live on this Tuesday, October 10th.

COLLINS: World democrats working up a plan today to penalize North Korea. U.S. experts still not certain the country actually carried out a nuclear test.

HARRIS: Keeping kids safe at school. The president holding a summit today, looking for ways to stop violence in the nation's classrooms.

COLLINS: And the Capitol e-mail scandal. The FBI questions a former page and a congressman speaks out about the suggestive e-mails today in the NEWSROOM.

HARRIS: Was it real? The world still doesn't know for certain whether North Korea carried out a nuclear test. Here's what we do know right now. A senior U.S. intelligence official says the reported test was unusually small for a nuclear detonation. That's led to questions about North Korea's claim. Experts say we may never know whether the north has a functioning nuclear weapon. For the United States, a time to push diplomatic penalties. The Bush administration pressing the United Nations to put tough, new sanctions on the North Korean regime.

COLLINS: At the U.N., diplomats are hashing out a plan to deal with North Korea. The U.S. supporting severe sanctions. Details now from our senior U.N. correspondent Richard Roth. Richard, are we hearing anything from the North Koreans, though, at this point?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At this time is -- well, the North Korean ambassador left his mission a little while ago without much comment, saying that sanctions is not going to help. All of this after yesterday's flurry of developments as the Security Council tried to react quickly to whatever North Korea tested.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH, (voice over): They knew it was coming, yet nations of the world's leading diplomatic organization could not prevent it. Just last Friday, the United Nations Security Council told North Korea, don't test a nuclear device.

JEAN-MARC DE LA SABLIERE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: The Council has warned North Korea last week. So the Council has to be now up with responsibility, because this is a serious threat to the national peace and security.

ROTH: Past differences over North Korea policy were easily swept aside.

VITALY CHURKIN, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: I think the North Koreans will be facing a very serious attitude on the part of the Security Council and the entire international community.

ROTH: The Security Council quickly united behind a statement.

AMB. KENZO OSHIMA, U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL PRESIDENT: Members of the Council strongly condemn this claim and, once again, urged North Korea to refrain from further testing.

ROTH: The U.S. ambassador had predicted a different world the morning after a nuke test by North Korea

JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: I think the mood in the Council is very somber. They recognize this is a significant threat to international peace and security. It certainly brings to mind for Americans why our security has to be upper most in our mind and we're now hopefully going to take some strong measures.

ROTH: The U.S. is proposing more than a dozen ideas for a resolution to punish North Korea, including inspections of any cargo going in or out of the country, plus an arms embargo, a freeze on financial assets tied to weapons of mass destruction and a ban on luxury goods. The get-tough elements may make it a little harder for the United States to get China aboard.

WANG GUANGYA, CHINESE AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: I think we have to react firmly, but also I believe that, on the other hand, that the thought to solve this issue from a diplomatic point of view is still open.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And, Richard, as we watched that, it is interesting to think about what the North Korean reaction might actually be.

Looks like we're having a little bit of difficulty with Richard Roth's audio there. We will certainly check into that and get back to him.

Meanwhile, the U.S. has huffed and puffed and still let North Korea get away with murder. At least that's the way one former defense official describes it. We will talk with him just a little later on in the hour.

HARRIS: And 36 hours later, U.S. experts still aren't sure North Korea tested a nuclear device. The small size of the detonation raises some interesting possibilities. Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): Senior U.S. intelligence officials tell CNN, North Korea's underground detonation was so small it could have been caused by several hundred tons of conventional explosives, such as TNT. One U.S. official told CNN, it was a "sub-kiloton explosive event," adding "we cannot confirm if it was a nuclear explosion."

The U.S. Geological Survey detected a seismic event at 10:35 Monday morning, North Korea time, some 240 miles northeast of the capital of Pyongyang, matching the announced location of the test. But it registered a magnitude 4.2, indicating the yield was much smaller than the several kilotons from a typical nuclear test. Still, experts argue that really doesn't matter.

MIKE CHINOY, PACIFIC COUNCIL ON INTERNATIONAL POLICY: It would be irresponsible for any serious policymaker in Washington, Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul or elsewhere to go on the assumption that simply because it was small that the North Koreans don't have a nuclear bomb.

MCINTYRE: The relatively small blast raises several possibilities, that the test was not nuclear, but an elaborate charade. Or that the test was nuclear but intentionally small, perhaps to limit radiation and conserve fissile material. Or the test was supposed to be bigger but something went wrong. As one U.S. official put it, more fizzle than pop.

Still, if the idea was to get the world's attention and increase North Korea's leverage at the bargaining table, it was a booming success.

JIM WALSH, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Essentially this test was a political act and not a military act. And all the political consequences are going to happen whether it was fake or true, whether it was fissile or a success.

MCINTYRE: Few in the U.S. government doubted North Korea had the ability to conduct a simple nuclear test, but most intelligence officials believe it still lacks the technology to miniaturize a nuclear bomb and put it on a missile that could hit the United States. But there are real fears the test could spark an Asian arms race.

DAVID ALBRIGHT, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: We could be on a spiral where the tensions will be ratcheted up, the chance of military conflict will go up, and in that you'll have a greater chance that countries like Japan and South Korea will start to re-evaluate whether they should get nuclear weapons, too.

MCINTYRE: For now, the working assumption is that the test was, in fact, a nuclear event and that more data, including air and ground tests for radiation, will confirm that. Already experts say the seismic wave pattern bears the signature of a nuclear blast.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: It is a heart-breaking reality for schools and parents across the country. We're talking about a sudden spike in school shootings. In the past two weeks alone, there have been shootings in Colorado, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Missouri. A total of nine people killed, including the gunman. Now the White House is looking for ways to end the violence. Our Kelli Arena is following the story.

Hi, Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Heidi.

You know, the White House conference on school safety has been underway for about more than an hour. Now the first panel, just wrapped up, was moderated by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. The focus of this first panel is to discuss concrete steps to prevent crime and violence at schools.

The panel is made up of experts from very different fields. Everything from local sheriffs, to building planners. And I've been watching this discussion all morning. I've boiled down some highlights for you.

First, experts say schools need to have safety and reaction plans in place that are updated, that are practiced. You cannot assume that people know what to do, especially considering the high turnover rate at most schools. It's a point that's made repeatedly by school safety experts. We caught up with one yesterday and he echoed exactly what I heard this morning. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH TRUMP, NATIONAL SCHOOL SAFETY & SECURITY SERVICES: Plans aren't being updated, content is questionable, and we're not having training for people who need to see if those plans would actually work. Schools need to be working with their public safety officials, police, fire, emergency medical services to make sure that what's on paper would work in a real emergency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: And some of the other points that were brought up. Law enforcement says that they should be available to help schools establish relationships with medical professionals, mental health professionals, emergency response teams within the communities. There also need to be formal ways to correct intelligence, phone numbers to call or people to reach out to if there is a threat. And, if possible, school buildings should be designed or possibly renovated to provide more security. For example, limiting entryways or opening up lines of sight down hallways.

Just to put this all in perspective for you, Heidi, there have been 25 school shootings so far this year. That's this year, since August. Seven of those shootings have resulted in deaths.

Back to you.

COLLINS: And, Kelli, as a person who covered Columbine from Colorado when it happened, you know, dialogue is always great and I'm looking at some of these panel members here and a lot of them have experienced it first hand.

ARENA: That's right, they have.

COLLINS: What is the hope, though, Kelli, that they will all get out of this? What will they take away? What changes are likely to be made after this conference is over?

ARENA: Well, the goal, of course, is to share best practices, is to learn from people who, as you said, who have had that firsthand experience and to come up with ways to prevent this from ever happening again. Unfortunately, so many school experts say, you know, this becomes a hot topic of discussion when you do see something like Columbine or the recent spate of shootings that we've seen recently, and then once it all dies down, it all goes to the back burner and nobody pays attention

COLLINS: Hopefully we can keep that from happening this time around anyway. Kelli Arena from Washington. Thanks so much.

ARENA: You're welcome, Heidi.

HARRIS: A threat to kill. The transcript of a 911 call from last week's shooting at an Amish school has been released this morning and it reveals the gunman threatened to kill his hostages in two seconds if authorities did not leave the property. Charles Roberts told Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, dispatcher, "don't try to talk me out of it. Get them off the property now." When the dispatcher asked Roberts to stay on the phone so he could be transferred to state police, Roberts replied, "right now or they're dead in two seconds." Roberts stormed the school on October 2nd, armed with several guns. He ended up killing five girls and wounding five others. Roberts also killed himself.

Still to come, the Mark Foley e-mail scandal. Who knew what, when. The allegations, the investigation, in the NEWSROOM.

COLLINS: And the army beats its recruiting goal, but how they did it has some people talking. Details on that coming up.

HARRIS: And Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in "The Situation Room" with Wolf Blitzer at 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Want to take you to Heathrow Airport in London to update you on something we are learning here in the CNN NEWSROOM. A term at London's Heathrow Airport was evacuated just moments ago because of an apparent suspicious bag there. Now this is certainly one of the world's busiest airports. Always a lot of security concerns here. It happened at terminal two, in case you are familiar with the airport, which is European destination terminal. This is all attributed to Reuters, we are learning this information from. So we are checking our sources in the area to find out what more we can learn.

But here's the scary part. Apparently a man was seen running in and dropping a bag at the check-in area. So, obviously, not a sight you see every day. Not sure where that man is now, but we'll continue to monitor the situation, giving you more details as soon as we get them.

HARRIS: A Capitol scandal, a widening investigation. Lawmakers are contacting aides and ex pages about former Congressman Mark Foley. It's part of the House Ethics Panel probe. The big question, what, if anything, do they know about Foley and inappropriate conduct toward male pages? The FBI is asking questions as well. Investigators are reportedly meeting today in Oklahoma with a former page. He is identified as one who received sexually suggestive e-mails from Foley.

COLLINS: Lower the bar, boost the ranks. New test standards let the Army top its recruiting goals for the year. Our Barbara Starr has the story now from the Pentagon.

So what changed about these standards, Barbara?

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Heidi, we're going do have a press conference here in the Pentagon in about an hour and we expect to hear a good deal more about all of this. But basically we've come to the end of the fiscal year, so now the military is ready to report on whether or not it made its very tough goals for recruiting new troops into the military service.

We've had a bit of a peak at the Army's program. The Army tells us now, yes, they have made their standard for the active duty Army, for Army Reserve and National Guard. They fell a little bit short 98, 99 percent.

But what about this whole question, as you say, of maybe relaxing standards a bit so more people can come into the military service and the recruiting goals can actually be met? Here's the problem. What the military will tell you is three out of 10, only three out of 10 young Americans between the ages of 17 and 24 meet the full standard for military service. So they have to expand the pool a little bit more.

There has been, in fact, they will say, some altering of the standards. More people allowed in on medical waivers. People allowed in who have, perhaps, some misdemeanor law enforcement record. Not, however, they emphasize, for drug trafficking or felony drug offenses. People who may have some limitations in their English language skills.

But the military says, overall, that this is a very small number of people and it really hasn't altered what they say is the very high standard for joining the military service. So just about an hour from now we expect to hear more from top Pentagon officials on how the year did shape up for recruiting and why it is that they think young Americans still appear to be anxious to join the military even with the war in Iraq.

Heidi.

COLLINS: Yes, Army also saying, too, Barbara, that low test scores don't necessarily mean they won't be quality soldiers. So we'll look for that meeting and those announcements coming at 11:15.

Thanks so much.

STARR: Sure.

HARRIS: And international man of mystery, North Korea's leader, still ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: And just want to quickly update the breaking news into CNN. A terminal at London's Heathrow Airport has been evacuated because of a suspicious bag. That incident at terminal two, which serves European destinations, we understand has now been closed.

And here is what is disturbing about all of this. A man was seen running in and dropping a bag at the check-in area. And a nearby administrative building at Heathrow, obviously one of the biggest and busiest airports in the world, was also evacuated. And passengers are being kept about 300 yards away from the terminal at this time. We will continue to follow developments in this story and bring you the very latest.

Heidi.

COLLINS: Want to take a moment to look at the numbers. The New York Stock Exchange. You see the Dow there, down about 16 points, resting at 11, 840 or so. Yesterday it surprised us a little bit at the close. It was up much higher than it was, obviously, at this time of day. So we like to watch things play out as they go. And the Nasdaq is down five. So we are watching that for you.

North Korea's reported nuclear test, one day later, prompting new questions and plans for punishment as well. Here's what we know. U.S. experts say we may never be sure if a nuclear device was actually tested. That's because the size of Monday's explosion was small for a nuclear blast. That makes it difficult for sensors to detect radioactive emissions.

Fears of an arms race in the region are lessening. Japan's new prime minister says his nation has no plans to build a nuclear weapon. Shinzo Abe says he wants a diplomatic solution instead.

To that end, the U.N. Security Council meeting behind closed doors today. Council members are considering a series of sanctions against the North Koreans.

HARRIS: Kim Jong-il, North Korea's reclusive leader, CNN's Zain Verjee has traveled to the Korean peninsula. She looks at what we know and what we don't know about the man calling the shots. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER MAASS, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE: He's not crazy. He might be a emotional. He might be somewhat eccentric. But crazy, absolutely not.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): Indeed, Kim Jong- il's persona may be carefully cultivated. As supreme leader of an impoverished country, he has little to bargain with on the international stage and his reputation may work to his advantage. But behind it, there is, by all accounts, a shrewd dictator.

MAASS: Really everybody who has met with Kim Jong-il, and there have been quite a few, South Koreans, Americans, Russians, North Koreans who have since defected, they all come out saying this man knows what he's doing.

VERJEE: Kim Jong-il inherited the role of absolute ruler from his father, Kim Al-sung, who died in 1994. The elder Kim, dubbed himself great leader, and the younger followed suit. He's known as dear leader. He's believed to have been born in the Soviet Union in 1941 or '42. But his birth place is often listed instead as a mountain famous in Korean mythology. He's thought to have been married three times, although it's not clear if all were official. And he's known to have three sons and at least one daughter.

Rather short in stature, he's rumored to wear platform shoes. He, nonetheless, had a reputation as a hard partying playboy as a young man and reportedly still has an eye for the ladies.

JERROLD POST, FORMER CIA PROFILER: He recruits at junior high school level, attractive young girls with clear complexions and pretty faces to be enrolled in his Joy Brigades. And the Joy Brigades function it to provide rest and relaxation for his hard work senior officials.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: And this reminder, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is Wolf Blitzer's guest today in "The Situation Room." Boy, that is must-see TV written all over it.

Heidi.

COLLINS: We are also watching something out of Aurora, Illinois. You see the building there. House Speaker Dennis Hastert just made some comments at the Chamber of Commerce, once again, in Aurora, Illinois. Looking for him to come to the microphones, which are set up just outside of that shot. See what he might have to say as we continue to follow the Congressman Foley situation. So we're watching that.

Meanwhile, the U.S. has huffed and puffed and still let North Korea get away with murder. At least that's the way one former defense official describes it. We will talk with him coming up a little bit later in the hour. HARRIS: Gunmen in schools, children killed, unsettling images. What can we do? A school safety summit looks for answers. That's in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Want to quickly update you on a situation in London that we were telling you about. A portion of Heathrow Airport there, obviously one of the world's busiest airports if you know it, has been evacuated. There's a suspicious package there. Terminal two, which is a European destination terminal and usually very busy, evacuated because of a person who ran in to the area, dropped a bag at the check-in, and then apparently left. Police are on the scene checking it all out and looking at this suspicious package. So we will wait to find out when people will be allowed to go back in and actually get on the plane.

HARRIS: And, Heidi, as we continue to follow developments on the Foley front, House Speaker Dennis Hastert is in Aurora, Illinois, and he has just been offering a speech, making a speech before the Chamber of Commerce there. We have a bank of microphones set up outside of that building there and we're anticipating -- don't know this for sure, but anticipating that the speaker may make some additional statements on the Foley scandal. If that happens, of course, we will bring those comments to you live.

COLLINS: North Korea's reported nuclear test one day later prompting new questions and plans for punishment. Here's what we know. U.S. experts say we may never actually be sure if a nuclear device was tested. That's because of the size of Monday's explosion. It was very small for a nuclear blast. That makes it incredibly difficult for sensors to detect radioactive emissions.

Fears of an arms race, though, in the region are lessening. Japan's new prime minister says his nation has no plans to build a nuclear weapon. Shinzo Abe says he wants a diplomatic solution.

To that end, the U.N. Security Council meeting behind closed doors today. Council members are considering a series of sanctions against the North Koreans.

HARRIS: North Korea, the focus is diplomacy. Still, some are wondering, could it come to war? CNN's Brian Todd takes a closer look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On a peninsula that has been heavily militarized and preparing for confrontation for more than 50 years, scenarios for war are detailed and frightening. We discussed them with a former senior U.S. Army intelligence officer assigned to Korea, a former Delta Force commander who also has a CIA background, and a former strategic planner at the National War College who developed a war game on Korea.

They all make clear war is a very remote possibility, so the prospect of a U.S. preemptive strike.

MAJ. JEFFREY BEATTY, FORMER DELTA FORCE CMDR.: If you're going to do a preemptive strike, you have got to make sure you get everything because if you don't, they are going to launch what they have left and they're going to probably launch a full-scale attack against the south.

TODD: Our experts say if America struck first, the best case scenario is casualties in the tens of thousand on both sides. If North Korea attacked first, they say, thousands of its special operations commandos would likely swarm into the south from the air and sea, linking up with sleeper agents who have already infiltrated through tunnels. Then...

BRIG. GEN. JAMES MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Step two would be they have to secure the Demilitarized Zone that separates north from south, and they would do that with light infantry, simply to hold the shoulders of the penetration, not go very deep but to hold the door open, if you will.

TODD: Holding the door for North Korea's heavily armored million man army to push toward Seoul and points south. At the same time, the North Koreans would launch missiles.

MARKS: They would be conventionally tipped. We have to assume they would be chemically tipped.

TODD: Prompting U.S. forces to launch air strikes on North Korean artillery positions, many of which can be hidden in deep underground bunkers. And inevitably, experts say, U.S. and North Korean ground forces would engage, likely on very difficult terrain.

(on camera): Terrain in what has turned into a very urbanized region over the past 50 years. That means possibly hundreds of thousands of casualties, military and civilian, and that leaves out North Korea's nuclear capability, which our experts say is too crude to be used effectively for the moment.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: We would like to show you Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She is apparently delivering some remarks at a swearing-in ceremony for U.S. global AIDS coordinator Mark Dybul. This is happening at the State Department. Want to show you this because she will be Wolf Blitzer's guest tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern time, in "THE SITUATION ROOM." Once again, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice talking about the North Korea threat with Wolf Blitzer tonight at 7:00.

Also want to take you to London, I believe, to update the situation there. A portion of Heathrow Airport, a portion of Terminal 2, has been evacuated. Police are on the scene. Suspicious bag, where a guy ran in, dropped off the bag at the check-in area in Terminal 2, and then ran off. So, everybody kind of trying to check out what was in that bag and people evacuated from the airport at this time.

HARRIS: And, of course, you're talking about Heathrow Airport. It brings to mind all of the concerns a couple months ago about that disrupted terror plot there to take over planes and fly them into U.S. and blow them up in the United or perhaps overseas as well. So, clearly when you're talking about Heathrow Airport right now, it is one of the focuses of a lot of attention with regard to homeland security, certainly here and there as well.

One other note we want to remind you of is that the House speaker, Dennis Hastert, is right now in his home state of Illinois. He delivered comments just a short time ago to the chamber of commerce there. And a bank of microphones set up outside -- perhaps the speaker will offer some additional comments, some new comments, on the Foley investigation that is unfolding right now in Washington, D.C. If he does that, we will, of course, bring those comments to you live.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange. It started 19 months ago in a garage and now two 20-somethings are multi-millionaires. I'll tell you about the steep price Google is paying for YouTube. I'll have that story when NEWSROOM returns. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: OK, once again, a lot of things going on right now. Let's see if we can bring you up to speed on all of them. Right now, you're taking a look at Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and the first lady, Laura Bush, attending an event, a swearing-in ceremony in Washington, D.C., at the State Department.

I wonder, do we want to listen a little bit to the first lady? OK, we don't. This is a swearing-in ceremony for Mark Dybul as U.S. global AIDS coordinator.

The reason we want to show you Condoleezza Rice in action is just to remind you that later today, 7:00 p.m. Eastern time, the secretary of state talking about the North Korea threat with Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM." That's this evening, 7:00 p.m. Eastern time.

COLLINS: Also back to London quickly. Heathrow Airport there, a portion of Terminal 2 -- which is a very busy area, a lot of European destinations coming in and out of that terminal -- has been evacuated because of a suspicious package there. Police are now there, checking it out, investigating it, trying to determine how it got there and its level of danger, if any.

Heathrow, very, very busy airport and always monitoring its security the best it can. So we'll continue to watch that story and see when people are going to be allowed back in and when that can happen.

HARRIS: And once again, Mark, let's see these live pictures outside of Aurora, Illinois, the chamber of commerce there, where the speaker of the house Dennis Hastert has just given a speech. Waiting for him to walk to the... COLLINS: That's an exciting shot, isn't it?

HARRIS: Well, I'm trying to do the best with what we have here. We're expecting that the speaker will come out that have building shortly and perhaps offer some more comments on the Mark Foley scandal as it continues to unfold in Washington, D.C. and parts across the country, as well, on this day.

COLLINS: Yes. All right. Well, meanwhile, we heard rumors starting, I guess it was last week, and now it is official. Google is buying YouTube.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

COLLINS: North Korea's reported nuclear test one day later, prompting new questions and plans for punishment. Here's what we know: U.S. experts say we may never actually be positive if a nuclear device was actually tested, because of the size of Monday's explosion. It was small for a nuclear blast, so that makes it difficult for sensors to detect radioactive emissions.

Fears of an arms race in the region are lessening. Japan's new prime minister says his nation has no plans to build a nuclear weapon. Shinzo Abe says he wants a diplomatic solution.

And to that end, the U.N. Security Council meeting behind closed doors today. Council members are considering a series of sanctions against the North Koreans.

HARRIS: So the question is, how should North Korea be handled among other things? Here's what the United States wants. An international embargo on anything that could be used in North Korea's missile and nuclear programs, inspections of cargo heading into and out of the country, to be sure the north isn't selling nuclear material, and a freeze on money used to finance North Korea's weapons program. The U.S. also wants a ban on luxury items, apparently targeting Kim Jong-Il and elite members of the regime.

Japan adds this, it wants to deny permission for North Korean planes and ships to travel outside the country and ban imports of North Korean products. The world community working on a plan to put North Korea in the diplomatic penalty box. Can sanctions work?

Let's talk about it with Ashton Carter, a former assistant defense secretary. He joins us from Harvard's Kennedy School.

Ashton, thanks for your time.

ASHTON CARTER, FMR. ASST. DEFENSE SECY.: Good to be with you.

HARRIS: Sanctions certainly a response -- sanctions a solution?

CARTER: Well, they're not in the end going to be the solution, but they're a necessary step now. We need to get the strongest sanctions we can. We have continually allowed Kim Jong-Il to move us back one step behind one red line after another, and we hope, at this stage, we can hold the line and force him to pay some consequences for his actions.

Now, the United States can't do this alone, because we don't sell North Korea anything, we don't trade with them, so we depend upon others, particularly China, to punish him. But at the end of the day, after this, he has been made to feel the consequences of this act, we're going to need to circle back and try to give him also some incentive to walk back from the nuclear precipice.

HARRIS: Ashton, how many opportunities have been missed to take a hard line with North Korea over the years?

CARTER: Yes, we have missed a number of opportunities to draw the line. And anybody who has children knows that if on the one hand you threaten them and tell them they're going to be consequences for an action, and on the other hand, you don't do anything, you're going to create a monster. And over the last five years or so, that's what we've been doing, is we said, if they took the fuel rods out of Yongbyong, it would be unacceptable. If they fired missiles, it would be unacceptable. If they did an underground test, it would be unacceptable. So they really do need to be made to feel the consequences of this last action if we're going to have any chance of turning this situation around.

HARRIS: Ashton, listen to this. Here's Ambassador Bolton talking about when the real North Korean threat was uncovered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMB. JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: I think that the North Korean threat was really uncovered during the Bush administration. You know, the North Korean signed an agreement in 1994 called the Agreed Framework where they were supposed to give up their pursuit of nuclear weapons in exchange for some tangible carrots. They never did. As far as we can tell now, they probably began violating that agreement before the ink was dry. President Bush and his administration uncovered that, confronted the North Koreans with it, and we've been on a path for more pressure on them ever since.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: So Ashton, what were you and your team doing with the North Koreans in the '90s? Playing footsie with them?

CARTER: Well, there's a significant error in that statement by John Bolton. The plutonium, which is the metal that was used to make the bomb in the last couple days, was throughout the 1990s at Yongbyong and not inspected by us and completely controlled by us.

What he's referring to is the fact -- which is absolutely right -- that the North Koreans began a uranium program, but that was a tiny little thing that they couldn't have made any bombs out of. So it's a mistake to confuse those two.

The fact of the matter is that through the 1990s North Korea didn't make any nuclear weapons. I don't think this is a matter of which -- this all started in the first administration of George Bush's father. This isn't something we ought to point fingers at one another about. This is a serious national security matter. In the first instance, the problem is the North Koreans.

HARRIS: OK. Help me with the geopolitics of this whole thing. Is it true that china has the most to fear with a destabilized North Korea?

CARTER: Well, you'd think that, but the Chinese have now shown us for the last five years that they don't believe that. We wish they did, but they didn't. And that's one of the reasons why the six-party talks haven't come to anything. The Chinese have their hands on the North Koreans' throats. In an afternoon they could cut off energy and food to North Korea that would make it impossible for North Korea to sustain itself.

HARRIS: OK, so, Ashton, let me stop you there and ask one more quick question. How do -- how do we -- how does the United States leverage China to do more?

CARTER: Well, I think that the way to leverage them at the moment is to put the pressure of the United Nations and the Security Council on them, which is what President Bush is trying to do, and I think he's absolutely right to do that.

HARRIS: Will that get us anywhere?

CARTER: Well, in the end of the day, we're going to have to solve this problem ourselves. I don't think we can't outsource it to the Chinese. They may help, but they're not going to be the answer. I don't know whether we're going to be able to talk the North Koreans out of it either, but it's our security that's at risk. The North Koreans say that they're building these for us, and for us to think that the Chinese are going to step up to the plate on our behalf, I think five years have shown that's not going to happen.

HARRIS: Former Assistant Defense Secretary Ashton Carter. Ashton, thank you. Appreciate it.

CARTER: Good to be with you.

COLLINS: Well, we're talking winter weather. If you want to be in denial that it was coming, you can't be anymore. We're going to talk about that with Chad Myers next. Find out if you will be cold or maybe not so cold this winter season.

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DENNIS HASTERT, HOUSE SPEAKER: ... we have the Ethics Committee doing an investigation. We have the U.S. attorney general and the FBI doing an investigation. And on Foley we have the state of Florida doing an investigation. If anybody's found to have hidden information or covered up information, they really should be gone.

QUESTION: How satisfied are you how your staff has handled the scandal so far and whether anyone should resign in your office?

HASTERT: Well, I look at this -- I understood what my staff told me. And I think, from that response, they've handled it as well as they should.

However, you know, in 20/20 hindsight, probably you could do everything a little bit better.

But if there is a problem, if there was a coverup, then we should find that out through the investigation process. They'll be under oath and we'll find out.

If they did cover something up, then they should not continue to have their jobs.

But I didn't think anybody at any time in my office did anything wrong. I found out about these revelations last Friday. That was the first information that I had about it.

QUESTION: Speaker, as of last Friday, when the story first broke, had you been aware of any other contacts -- I'm not talking specifically about the instant messages, but any other contacts, any other incidents, inappropriate contacts between Congressman Foley and pages?

HASTERT: No.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: ... says he asked you to resign this morning and that you said you would for the good of the country if that's what it took.

HASTERT: That's a privileged conversation.

QUESTION: Mr. Speaker, what is it that your staff told you happened?

HASTERT: Well, you know, I've been in contact with my staff ever since last Friday. I was back a week ago last Monday. We spent a whole day of going over it. I asked for an internal investigation. And the internal investigation's available to anybody that wants it. But it has been printed as well.

You know, we focused on the Foley situation -- who knew when. And, you know, that's public information. That's all I know.

QUESTION: Do you think it's fair that you're such a lightning rod in this whole crisis?

HASTERT: Look, I'm not making accusations of what's fair and what's not fair. The reality is here.

And, you know, I think what we're trying to do is to find somebody to make this Page Board better to bring in. I asked Louis Freeh to do it, but Nancy Pelosi rejected him for some reason. So we're going to continue to find somebody to head up -- to do an investigation and make sure that we can make this page situation much better if we have to do it.

The problem we have to do today is -- you know, this didn't happen under -- while the pages were in Washington. It happened after these people left, in my understanding -- left the page program -- at least the ones we're dealing with now -- left the program and they were contacted after they left the program.

We need to have a 1-800 number in which you put in place so that parents or anybody that's concerned -- grandparents, aunts, uncles, anybody else that's concerned about this -- can have a way of contacting the Congress, and then we can do something about it.

But we need to expedite this process and we need to be able to find out, number one, if there's any problems in the past people ought to come forward. And, secondly, that we can ensure that this problem doesn't happen in the future. And I think that's important piece of this.

Thanks a lot.

COLLINS: And there you have it. House Speaker Dennis Hastert commenting on several different things. First and foremost was taxes, and then moving into what reporters were really after, I believe, about the latest with Congressman Foley and who knew what, when. Still seems to be the question today.

I want to go ahead and bring in Andrea Koppel, find out more what is being said. I have in my hand here a statement from Congressman Jim Kolbe, who we also heard Dennis Hastert mention, from Arizona. What are you hearing there, Andrea?

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Heidi, as you and our viewers probably remember, yesterday we were reporting that a spokesperson for Jim Kolbe, who is a Republican from Arizona, was saying that they believed that there may have been -- that Congressman Kolbe may have received an e-mail from a former page, saying that this individual had gotten some e-mails that made him a little uncomfortable from Congressman Foley.

There was a big question as to whether or not Congressman Kolbe himself had spoken with this page or even if he had spoken with Congressman Foley. Now we have -- and the reason we didn't know is he was out of the country. We now have a statement from Congressman Kolbe in which he says that he used to head up the page program.

And sometime after leaving -- he doesn't say when, but we believe it was around 2001, 2002. "An individual I had appointed as a page contacted my office to say that he had received e-mails from Representative Foley that made him uncomfortable. I was not shown the content of the messages," says Jim Kolbe, "and was not told they were sexually explicit. It was my recommendation that this complaint be passed along to Representative Foley's office and the clerk who supervised the page program." He said, "I did not have a personal conversation with Mr. Foley about the matter" and he assumed that the e-mail contact ceased since the former page never raised the issue again with his office. Now, the reason that this would be significant is that depending upon what the year was -- and again, this e-mail which we've just received and I'm reading really for the first time now, is that if it went back to 2000, 2001, that would have been many years before, Heidi, that his office -- that Dennis Hastert's office -- would have been aware of this matter -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Yes, because he didn't take over on the page board until he just said, either 2002 or 2003. So all right. Interesting information. We'll continue to keep our eye on this one.

Andrea Koppel, thanks.

HARRIS: When we come back, we will put the latest comments from Speaker Hastert into the Foley timeline. Still asking and trying to get an answer to the question of who knew what when.

And coming up in the next hour, securing our schools. What's going on with all these recent shootings, and what can people do to keep kids safe? That's coming up in the NEWSROOM.

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