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North Korea Nuclear Threat; North Korean Nuclear Test; War's Deadly Toll; Foley Investigation; The Foley Factor

Aired October 11, 2006 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(WEATHER REPORT)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Rising tension and a false alarm this morning in Asia over North Korea's nuclear program. CNN's Aneesh Raman is in Tokyo this morning.

Aneesh, good morning.

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Soledad, good morning to you.

First some news just in the past hour. Japan not waiting for the United Nations to take actions against North Korea. They are taking some action of their own. A new round of sanctions has been approved by Japan's cabinet. They reportedly include a ban on all ships from traveling between North Korea and Japan. A ban as well on all imports and exports between the two countries. Trade between Japan and North Korea was at about $180 million last year.

Meantime, a sign of how the tension that took place in Japan after the nuclear test lingers. This morning, Japanese media reported that an earthquake was a result of a second nuclear test in North Korea. South Korea's news agencies immediately contradicted that though and said that South Korea saw no seismic activity in the north.

That turned out to be the case. It was not a manmade earthquake. A natural one. And it didn't happen in North Korea, but instead off the eastern coast of Japan. But it shows how very real a threat North Korea now poses to Japan and how closely they are watching what happens in Pyongyang.

Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Are there rumors, Aneesh, of a second test?

RAMAN: Well, we heard from Japan's foreign minister today at the country's parliament. He said he had unconfirmed information that a second nuclear test in North Korea was imminent. That it could happen as early as today.

We also heard from North Korea's number two, who was in an interview with a Japanese news service, said that a second nuclear test really was up to the United States. And if Pyongyang faced mounting pressure from Washington, it would go ahead with another test. But Japan, really facing the brunt of the threat from North Korea, is taking nothing for granted and watching, as I say, extremely closely to see if a second test does take place. Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Aneesh Raman for us this morning in Tokyo. Aneesh, thanks.

Right now China, a North Korean ally, is considering sanctions. Here at home, the White House is trying to decide what to do next. Hugh Riminton is live for us in Beijing. Suzanne Malveaux is at the White House for us this morning.

Hugh, let's begin with you. Good morning.

HUGH RIMINTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. When it comes to sanctions, of course, China holds all the cards. The question is, is it willing to pay the big ones?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIMINTON, (voice over): There is no question North Korea will be punished because China says so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has to be some punitive actions.

RIMINTON: But the qualifying comment carries the key.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to have a firm, constructive, appropriate, but prudent.

RIMINTON: What is prudent when it comes to punishing a new, defiant nuclear state which once answered international pressure with a threat to turn South Korea into a sea of fire? Some analysts believe China is self-divided on how fast sanctions should go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the reason why it hasn't acted is a more assertive fashion is because it really hasn't know what the consequences of that would be. And I also think that there's been dissension within the government here in Beijing about what, in fact, to do.

RIMINTON: North Korea keeps no embassy in Washington, but it has this massive complex in Beijing that reflects a key reality. That for decades China has been North Korea's best and perhaps only real friend. Now in defying the world, North Korea has also angered China. And that means for all the publicity pictures, Kim Jong-il is more isolated, more friendless today than he has ever been.

He has left Chinese President Hu Jintao with egg on his face and the Chinese leadership doesn't like it. Despite an alliance formalized by treaty, China significantly is no longer calling its neighbor an ally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE, (through translator): You used the word ally. I don't agree with that.

RIMINTON: China alone has the power to seriously damage the North Korean regime without resorting to military force. A third of North Korea's food and almost all its energy comes from China. But Beijing fears North Korea is so weak, any significant pressure could lead to chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: China has to be pushed, they have to be given an incentive to do this. I think China worries extensively that you're going to have a collapse of the regime and there's going to be a huge flood of refugees into China.

RIMINTON: Kim Jong-il's calculation is that the international response to his nuclear test will be less damaging than the security gains of him having a nuclear weapon. On the noises so far from China, he has yet to be proved wrong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIMINTON: And with North Korea saying that any further sanctions or talk of sanctions from the United States being seen as a declaration of war, there is still some room yet for this to escalate.

Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Hugh Riminton in Beijing for us this morning.

Hugh, thank you.

The United States says it has no intention of attacking North Korea, but the Bush administration is pushing for strong sanctions. One North Korean official says that would be considered an act of war. CNN's Suzanne Malveaux live at the White House for us.

Suzanne, good morning.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

Well, at the heart of the U.S. strategy regarding North Korea is really to try to rally North Korea's neighbors to impose the toughest sanctions possible. The idea is to try to squeeze North Korea economically and politically to try to get it to change its behavior. Now what U.S. officials are telling us is, they believe that the neighbors have more leverage, or at least they hope the neighbors have more leverage, in trying to get North Korea to comply. We heard from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice yesterday in CNN's "The Situation Room."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: The international community is speaking with one voice very loudly because the North Koreans crossed an important line when they proclaimed that they had conducted a nuclear test. We have to take the claim seriously because it's a political claim, if nothing else, that tries to get the bargaining position of being a nuclear power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And, Soledad, Secretary Rice, as well as other U.S. officials, are still refusing to comply with North Korea's main demand. That is, of course, one-on-one talks before these six-party talks begin, immediate talks. Now U.S. officials say that those one- on-one talks can occur, but they need North Korea to come back to the negotiating table with its members, with its neighbors. They feel that that will give the United States better leverage, more leverage, and more bargaining power.

Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House for us this morning.

Thanks, Suzanne.

Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: A high-level huddle today on the other nuclear worry, Iran. Diplomats from the U.S. and five other nations holding a teleconference to tick through possible sanctions aimed at punishing Tehran. Iran still refusing to stop making nuclear fuel which could be used to make atomic weapons. But Tehran insists there is no military purpose for its nuclear program.

To Iraq now. A mortar attack on a U.S. military base in Baghdad sparking a series of massive explosions at an ammunition dump. The explosions, lighting up the night sky, shook buildings at least four miles away. The explosions continued for more than an hour. No one seriously hurt, however.

A new estimate of Iraqi civilians deaths is out this morning and the figure is startling -- 655,000 deaths. That is around 15,000 civilians killed every month since the invasion in 2003. Now President Bush estimated civilian deaths at about 30,000 late last year. Another respected group puts the number at 50,000. CNN's Arwa Damon joining us live from Baghdad to explain this disparity in the numbers.

Arwa.

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Miles.

Now that initial estimate that you were just mentioning of over 600,000 deaths, that is based on a study that was done that extrapolated the number from a survey of about 1,800 households. They're saying that based on that, they're estimating -- mind you this is only an estimate right now -- at least 600,000 civilian deaths. And this is a much larger number, by over half a million deaths, than any that we have heard in the past. The Iraq body count is putting its estimates at about 50,000 killed. As you just mentioned, President Bush estimating 30,000 killed.

Now the issue here, Miles, is that it is very difficult to actually determine how many deaths occur out there. And this is actually quite common. If you look at the history of conflicts, oftentimes it is years before the actual civilian casualty numbers do come out. And especially operating here in Iraq, it is incredibly difficult to get accurate figures. Often times information is very slow to trickle down and very challenging for it to trickle and actually reach the media.

In the past, the Iraqi ministry of health used to be very open about reporting civilian casualties per month. Right now it is very difficult to try to get numbers from them. The U.S. military, too, does not report civilian casualties. Very reluctant to put numbers out like that.

And that also goes for the Iraqi government. This comes at a very sensitive time for the Iraqi government here. Violence is only increasing. It is under increasing pressure, both from its own population and from the United States, to bring an end to the militias. To finally disarm the militias, who are believed to be responsible for much of the sectarian violence.

Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Arwa, just a quick word on methodology on this study. They took a survey and they included deaths like heart attacks, which could be attributed to the war or not, depending on how you look at it, right?

DAMON: That's right, Miles, and that figure also includes deaths due to car accidents. I mean, at best, this is an estimate right now. What they have done is looked at and gone to households, spoken to about 1,800 households and asked individuals there who they have lost, who has died over the last three years and why. And based on the figures that they obtained from that initial survey of 1,800 households, come up with this conclusive number of about 655,000. But, again, this is an estimate at best right now.

Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Arwa Damon in Baghdad, thank you.

Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Ahead this morning, the Mark Foley factor in the midterm elections. We'll take a look at how the scandal turned a favored Republican candidate into an underdog virtually overnight.

Then later, one city's experience, outsourcing city hall. Is privatizing government the wave of the future? That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: It's 13 minutes past the hour. If you're heading out the door, let's get a quick check of the traveler's forecast for you. Chad Myers is at the CNN Center.

Good morning, Chad.

(WEATHER REPORT) M. O'BRIEN: Mounting evidence Republican leaders received warnings then Congressman Mark Foley was preying on teenage pages years, not days ago. One of the people who claims to have blown the whistle is Foley's former chief of staff. Kirk Fordham is set to testify tomorrow before the House Ethics Committee. CNN's Andrea Koppel live from Capitol Hill with more.

Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Miles.

Well, Kirk Fordham will tell the House Ethics Committee that he tried to warn a top aide to House Speaker Dennis Hastert about Foley's behavior several years ago. Meanwhile, another central figure in the Foley scandal, Jordan Edmund, who was a page who allegedly received those sexually explicit instant messages from Foley. He appeared before television cameras for the very first time yesterday. That was after he and his attorney met with the FBI in Oklahoma City.

STEPHEN JONES, JORDAN EDMUND'S ATTORNEY: Jordan answered all of their questions, relying upon his memory as it exists. He was not served with any subpoenas to appear before any grand jury. He was not asked to return.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Now, Edmund's served as a page in the House between 2001 and 2002.

Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about Arizona Congressman Jim Kolbe, the only openly gay GOP member of Congress. He made a formal statement yesterday trying to clarify what he knew when. Let's talk about that for a moment.

KOPPEL: Sure. That's right, Kolbe said that his office got a complaint from a page who said that he had received e-mails from Foley that made him, in his words, uncomfortable. Now Kolbe, in that statement that you mentioned, said that he was not shown the content of the messages and was not told that they were sexually explicit. He said it was his recommendation that this complaint be passed along to Foley's office and the clerk who supervised the page. He said this was done promptly. But Kolbe also said that he thought that the contact had ended and assumed so because they never heard back from the page.

Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Andrea Koppel on Capitol Hill, thank you very much.

Florida Democrats are asking the Republican attorney general there to release any records his office might have on Foley's contacts with congressional pages. The A.G. there, Charlie Christ (ph), happens to be the Republican candidate for governor in Florida. His office is conducting an investigation of Foley. Now Republicans are calling that request from the Democrats gutter politics.

Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: A week after Congressman Tom Reynolds defended his handling of the Foley matter, the New York Republican is suddenly fighting an uphill battle for re-election. CNN's Mary Snow is live for us in Amherst, New York.

Mary, good morning.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

And here in this Buffalo suburb, Congressman Tom Reynolds is a dominant force. Not just here, but he also has the job of getting Republicans elected to Congress. In his home district, he's finding support is eroding.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW, (voice over): Call it the Foley factor.

REP. TOM REYNOLDS, (R) NEW YORK: Looking back, more should have been done. And for that, I am sorry.

SNOW: A $200,000 ad of contrition by Congressman Tom Reynolds is being countered by his opponent, Democrat Jack Davis, who's charging a Republican coverup.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reynolds says he did nothing wrong. But when it comes to protecting kids, isn't it wrong to do nothing?

SNOW: And there could be more ads like that to come. Davis' camp says it set aside $400,000 for commercials in the campaign's final weeks. The tide has turned with Davis now taking a lead over Reynolds, a four-term Republican incumbent and the chair of the National Republican Congressional Committee. Reynolds was thrust into the spotlight last week. He answered questions about his actions upon first learning last spring of an overly friendly e-mail exchange between Mark Foley and a former teenage page.

REYNOLDS: I did what most people would do in a workplace. I heard something. I took it to my supervisor.

SNOW: Since then, a local poll shows a double-digit lead. But, Reynolds, who was once ahead, is now trailing. Reporter Bob McCarthy has covered Reynolds for 25 years and says he's never been on the defense.

ROBERT MCCARTHY, BUFFALO NEWS: Things have gotten very serious for him in the last 10 days. But I also think there's no question that this was a very serious race even before the Foley affair.

SNOW: Davis is an independent businessman who's pledged from the outset to fund his own campaign against the long-time congressman who's come to be known as Mr. Clout (ph). For now, Reynolds is keeping a low profile, waiting for the dust to settle to return to issues like the economy. But even if Davis doesn't keep the Foley factor alive, observers predict somebody else will.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: And so far two political action committees have taken out their own anti-Reynolds ads that are running this week.

Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: A question for you. How is Reynolds handling all of this as he goes along the campaign trail?

SNOW: Well, Soledad, that's one of the big questions because this week he has no public events scheduled. And the theory is for him to kind of wait this out as the dust settles so he's not out there on the campaign trail answering these questions.

Later this month, October 20th, the campaign has said that Senator John McCain would be coming here to Buffalo to campaign for Congressman Reynolds. That event was canceled. They're citing scheduling conflicts. Senator McCain is supposed to do one event elsewhere in New York for the congressman, but that is something also that could keep the focus on the Foley matter as this campaign is hoping that it would go away by that time.

S. O'BRIEN: Interesting timing of a scheduling conflict there.

Mary Snow for us this morning in Amherst, New York.

Thanks, Mary.

If you want more on this story or any political story, you can go right to our website at cnn.com/ticker.

Coming up this morning, Hewlett-Packard's spying scandal in court. We'll tell you what HP's private i's told the judge.

And take a look at what it looks like in downtown Franklin, Virginia. Yes, all that flooding. Well the residents there are trying to get home. Back to their homes, back to their businesses to see just how bad the damage is. We'll take you there just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: The outside investigators in the HP case were in court yesterday. Andy Serwer's "Minding Your Business" with more on that.

Good morning.

ANDY SERWER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

And they pled not guilty, not guilty and not guilty. These are the three private investigators hired by HP in the spy case in Santa Clara County court in northern California. They said they weren't guilty of identity theft and other felony counts. Three of them, Ron DeLia, Matthew Depante and Bryan Wagner. Remember him, Bryan "The Hammer" Wagner. That's the guy who allegedly destroyed his computer with a hammer so that they wouldn't catch any evidence on it. And it's interesting stuff. His lawyer -- there he is, Bryan "The Hammer" Wagner. His lawyer said it's every man for himself. Everyone's going to pass the buck down and that's where my guy is sitting. A lot of indications that these people might be testifying against each other. It could get very ugly.

S. O'BRIEN: And very interesting, of course, because more information comes out when everybody starts talking.

SERWER: That's right. And, you know, it's unclear whether these people are going to be tried together. They're going to try to get themselves tried separately. Patty Dunn and Kevin Hunsaker, the two HP people involved in this who were also charged, have not pled yet. Another interesting point here is that someone suggesting that Mr. Wagner may be the designated defendant. That he'll be portrayed as a rogue person in this whole case. So we may be hearing more about him.

Meanwhile, other HP news to tell you about, Soledad. Patricia Dunn, the former chairman, of course, of this company, writing an op- ed piece in "The Wall Street Journal," appearing this morning. Yet another recitation of the facts by her, according to Patty Dunn. Not a whole lot of fireworks in this. She said there was no Perry Mason moment in the case where everything came together. She also says that some suggest that she is a scapegoat and that's for others to decide.

S. O'BRIEN: Did she say she knew about what the investigators were doing? I mean it sounds like she's both claiming that she was updated, but yet she didn't know about the really bad stuff, like the trying to, you know, impersonate people.

SERWER: Right. She's continuing to say that. And she said that she didn't know that reporters' phone records, for instance, were being accessed. On the other hand, she says she knew that board members' phone numbers were being looked at and then they were matched against the reporter's phone numbers. That's very close, though, isn't it?.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes. But how do you know one but not know the other?

SERWER: That's for the legal system to figure out, right?

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, that's exactly right.

What do you have ahead this morning?

SERWER: Ahead we're going to be talking about winter heating bills, Soledad. And, you know, things might actually not be so bad on that front.

S. O'BRIEN: I was going to ask you, is it good news or is it bad news?

SERWER: Good news for you. S. O'BRIEN: Andy, thank you.

SERWER: You're welcome.

S. O'BRIEN: Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: This just in to CNN. Northeastern France is on dateline (ph). A collision between a passenger train and a freight train in the Lorraine region of northeastern France. Reports from the Associated Press indicate at least 10 people dead. Reuters reporting at least 20 injured. It occurred on a train that was coming from Luxembourg. It hit a freight train at Zutkin (ph) in the French department of Mosel (ph). Once again, 10 dead, 20 injured according to both Reuters and the Associated Press in the northeastern part of the France after a train wreck. We'll follow it for you.

Coming up, North Korea may have the bomb. Could it be a cash crop for Kim Jong-il's regime? And could that mean a nuke in the hands of terrorists? We'll take a closer look at that scary scenario.

Plus, a staggering and controversial estimate on the human toll in Iraq. If the number is real, why, and is it inflated? We'll ask the question why at the Pentagon in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Welcome back to the program. I'm Miles O'Brien.

S. O'BRIEN: And I'm Soledad O'Brien.

We begin at the news wall for a look at some of the stories we're following for you this morning.

The Bush administration is pushing for strong sanctions against North Korea. Pyongyang now says it will consider any sanctions a declaration of war.

M. O'BRIEN: Nearly 655,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. That according to a new study just released this morning. Much higher than other estimates. Reaction from the Pentagon just ahead.

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice rejects the notion of one-on-one talks between the U.S. and North Korea. Speaking with Wolf Blitzer yesterday, she said North Korea should not use fear of a U.S. attack as an excuse to build nuclear weapons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECY. OF STATE: The United States of America doesn't have any intention to attack North Korea or to invade North Korea.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: So the military option is not... RICE: The president never takes any of his options off the table, but the United States somehow in a provocative way trying to invade North Korea, it's just not the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: North Korea may see nuclear weapons as a bargaining chip with the rest of the world, and potentially a valuable commodity that could be sold on the black market to terrorists. It's a scary scenario that may have roots, believe it or not, in Pakistan.

We get more on this from CNN's Nic Robertson. He's live in London -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, Pakistan has in the past -- Pakistan's President Musharraf, who detailed this in his autobiography, has passed nuclear technology to North Korea. They provided and gave North Korea about two dozen centrifuges used to enrich uranium.

Now there is, in the minds of many analysts, a question about what other technology did Pakistan pass to North Korea? The Pakistani officials are saying that North Korea's test was a plutonium test, not a uranium test. That excludes any use of the equipment of the provided.

But there's a real fear among experts that A.Q. Khan (ph), the father of Pakistan's own nuclear bomb, sold to North Korea similar types of missile designs, nuclear warhead missile designs, that he sold to Libya. Although it is not known for sure, there is a strong suspicion that A.Q. Khan may have provided North Korea with designs for nuclear-tipped missiles, and that, of course, is a very big concern.

International experts would like to interview A.Q. Khan, but he is under house arrest in Pakistan. No one but Pakistani officials can talk to him -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Will the Pakistani officials help and cooperate, perhaps question him on behalf of the rest of the world?

ROBERTSON: You know, it's a real hot-button issue in Pakistan. It's not something that can be discussed in the media. People can talk about President Musharraf, they can talk about the rise of Islamists in Pakistan, but they can't talk about the nuclear issue. So there's no public debate about it. It's not even clear, experts say, if President Musharraf has been fully informed of what A.Q. Khan did. There are concerns that A.Q. Khan was working just to fill his own pockets, if you will. This wasn't something even sanctioned by the government.

The core of it is what technology did AQ Khan provide, and what expertise did North Korea have as a result of that now -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: And how much it might be available on the black market to terrorists. That's a real concern. ROBERTSON: It's a very real concern. There was concern at the time about the discovery of AQ Khan's own network of proliferating Pakistan's technology under his own auspices, for his own financial gain, but of course North Korea is a state in itself. And there is concern that because North Korea has long traded in its own conventional missile technology, that they may have decided or planned to branch out in the future and sell on to interested parties nuclear technology that they perfected after getting the blueprints from Pakistan.

M. O'BRIEN: Nic Robertson in a rainy London. Thank you -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: To Iraq now and a startling report just released that estimates the war's caused 655,000 civilian deaths. Now that's about 20 times what's been reported by the U.S. in the past.

Let's get right to CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. She's live for us this morning.

Hey, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad.

This study being published today in the British medical journal "Lancet." This was a survey done in Iraq by a team of U.S. and Iraqi public health researchers. And indeed, they concluded, based on their work, that perhaps, upwards of 650,000 Iraqi civilians have died in the violence since the war began.

It is a startling number, so how did they come to this conclusion? Well, they went through Iraq, and they say that they conducted a random survey of some 1,800 households in Iraq, and then applied a statistical model that is often used in medical surveys, in mortality studies to it, and that's how they extrapolated out this number.

Now CNN has talked to experts who have looked at the methodology and say it looks reasonable. But it should be remembered, this is an extrapolation, and this number is significantly higher than other reports, other studies, other pieces of analysis that have come out. The survey being published in "Lancet" did find some conclusions that you might expect, things that are not too startling, that gunfire remains the most common cause of death amongst Iraqis, that deaths in bombing attacks are up, that Iraqi males, the age of 15 to 30 or so, are the most likely to be caught in the violence.

Now, according to Iraqi officials, they have some different numbers. They say, on average, about 1,000 Iraqis are killed at least every month in Baghdad in the sectarian violence, and they also say, very interesting, about 300,000 Iraqis have already been displaced by this war. So hard to come to any conclusions, but it is another set of numbers out there -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Sure is. And a vastly ranging set of numbers at that. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us. Thanks, Barbara.

STARR: Sure.

(NEWSBREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Coming up on the program, it's hard to plan for life's emergencies, to say the least, but what if you could? A new study says that you can predict when your wait at the E.R. will be the shortest. We'll tell you how.

Plus, an age-old question, who's smarter, men or women?

S. O'BRIEN: Women.

M. O'BRIEN: That's debatable.

S. O'BRIEN: Sorry, were you not asking me that question?

M. O'BRIEN: We'll clue you in on the debate in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: But actually, seriously, there's this new study. It kind of a provocative new study. It comes from Canadian researchers.

Sanjay Gupta has a little more on what they conclude.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kathryn Monkman (ph) and Gaurav Puri are a good match. Both had near- perfect undergraduate GPAs, and both are second year med students at the Schulich School of Medicine in Western Ontario.

GAURAV PURI, MEDICAL STUDENT: We're both pretty much equally intelligent. I would say that Kathryn is a little more intelligent than I am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would say he's a flatterer.

GUPTA: So confident they are equal, they agreed to take a little test for us, graded by Professor Phil Rushton. He is the psychologist who ignited a new round in the who's smarter, men or women debate.

J. PHILIPPE RUSHTON, PSYCHOLOGIST: When you extract the general factor of intelligence, males on average score 3.64 I.Q. points higher than women.

GUPTA: Rushton's bold conclusion that men have higher I.Q.s is based on his study of the SAT scores of 100,000 17- and 18-year-olds, 50,000 male, 50,000 female. Now, if you think one sex would naturally do better on math or verbal, Rushton says forget it, that he factored out the bias, finding men on average outscored women by nearly four I.Q. points. Even Rushton admits that's tiny, but says it explains why you see fewer women in top jobs.

RUSHTON: Once you start getting out to I.Q. levels of 115 or 130, what you need for the highest job, you're going to get proportions of 60/40, 70/30, 80/20 of men over women.

GUPTA: Rushton's research begs the question, why? It is Darwinian, he says. Women favored men who were adept at hunting beyond the base camp so from an evolutionary standpoint, women helped create more intelligent men. Rushton's critics charge his conclusions are skewed, and he has an agenda.

REBECCA COULTER, GENDER STUDIES EXPERT: We have a very long history of science being used for political purposes, and I think this is just another example of that.

GUPTA: And not the first. Former Harvard president Larry Summers threw gas on the fire of sexual politics by suggesting womens' innate sex difference explain why there are so few women in top math and science careers. But are there really any innate sex differences?

This is a human brain on display at the Mental Illness and Neurodiscovery or Mind Institute. You can't tell if it is a male or a female, but the male brain is, in fact, around 15 percent bigger by comparison.

While researchers have found a correlation between intelligence and brain size, men, don't declare yourselves the smartest yet. One of the country's top brain researchers tells me that it is not size but brain organization that matters.

DR. RICHARD HAIER, UNIV. OF CALIFORNIA, IRVINE: The areas of the brain related to intelligence in women tend to be more in the front. In men, they tend to be more in these side areas. Intelligence in general is normally distributed and equally distributed in men and women.

GUPTA: Now, back to our highly unscientific quiz. Gaurav scored a perfect 10 out of 10. Kathryn missed just one question. But does she think Gaurav or any of her male colleagues are smarter because they're men?

KATHRYN: I would have to say no.

GUPTA: And both agree that success as a doctor, as success in life, is measured by more than I.Q.

PURI: Hard work can compensate for lack of I.Q., but I.Q. probably can't compensate for a lack of hard work.

GUPTA: So, the last word on sex and intelligence? Scientists at the Mind Institute say someday brainscans may replace I.Q. tests altogether. It may be worth revisiting the issue then.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE) S. O'BRIEN: That's ridiculous study. First of all, the SAT doesn't test your I.Q. And secondly, everybody knows it's about E.Q., not I.Q. anyway.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, dear.

Looks like football could take its toll, even if your a spectator. A doctor has found that there's a dramatic jump in the number of emergency room visits once a televised game is over. This may prove that guys aren't so smart. A small study in Baltimore found men's E.R. visits are down while the game is on, and jump 40 percent after the game is over, and women are just laughing the whole time about the whole thing.

All right, outsourcing happens all the time in business, but what about city hall? Coming up, we'll take a look at an entire city run by a private company.

Stay with us.

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M. O'BRIEN: They say you can't fight city hall, but as it turns out, you can. Outsourcing. Georgia's city of sandy springs decided to hire for-profit company to run its municipal business. But will the private sector protect the public rights?

Rusty Dornin live from Sandy Springs this morning.

Hello, Rusty.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Miles.

Well, it is a guinea pig, and like all guinea pigs, you do have growing pains. And there is not a lot of details. They don't have a city hall yet. They moved into a temporary headquarters, and this is the temporary sign, for which the new city doesn't have a permit, but public or private, building a city from the ground up is a very complex operation.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These guys have really done a great job.

DORNIN (voice-over): The Ferarres (ph) were fed up. For more than a year, they tried to get their curb fixed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the problem was, without the curb, it started washing out the dirt along the road.

DORNIN: The couple lived in an Atlanta suburb that has been pushing to become its own city for several decades, and then it was approved by the voters last year.

In this case, that meant no more government bureaucrats, because this city of Sandy Springs is run by a private company. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They came out right away. There was not a week's delay. There was maybe an hour's delay.

DORNIN: Sandy Springs, a city of more than 80,000 people, is the first U.S. city designed to be run by a private company. But when the green light came from the state, there were a few obstacles.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had no money, and we could not sign a contract.

DORNIN: Mayor Ava Galambos (ph) says that's when they decided to hire CH2M Hill to provide services, everything but police, fire and courtroom personnel.

Outsourcing for cities has been around for a long time, but not for an entire city. So why would anyone want a private company to run their city? Patrick Collota (ph) says it means less red tape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Much more cost effective, fewer bodies and we feel the service deliveries will be substantially higher.

DORNIN: Part of that service is a 24/7 call line so taxpayers can always get a human being. Since last year they've received 50,000 calls, everything from pot holes to permits. The experiment is going so well, two other cities plan to hire CH2M Hill to run their government, and call are coming in nationwide inquiring about the experiment.

But some critics say beware, the Union for Municipal Employees is against privatization.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you turn over the keys to city hall to a private corporation, you basically have -- it's a colossal risk. Let's look at what happened in the Katrina cleanup or the rebuilding of Iraq.

DORNIN: And traditional cities must open their books to employee misdeeds, not so far for private companies.

(on camera): But what if I want to find out about what that person did?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not subject for those open records for that type of review or scrutiny, but we do take care of it.

DORNIN: The Ferarres say they don't know all the pros and cons, but for them, this outsourcing experiment is working.

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DORNIN: There are five city employees, the city manager and the city clerk and things like that, they act as an intermediary between the Marin (ph) City Council and the company, but the experiment has been working so well, as I said in the piece, the city of Milton and another city of Johns Creek, which are nearby, are also going to be also run by this same private company -- Miles. M. O'BRIEN: Rusty Dornin, Sandy Springs, Georgia, thank you -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: This just into CNN, it looks as if there's been a bus crash in Staten Island. Let's take these pictures for you closely to see there a bus. It looks like it's been rear-ended by some other kind of vehicle behind it. Looks like -- there we go. Looks like maybe a Town Car or something like that or a limo. In any case, it happened in Granitville (ph) section of Staten Island. It was a full- sized bus, apparently loaded with kids on their way to school, 13 children, according to reports, are being treated now for non-life- threatening injuries. The bus was hit on Richmond Avenue near Christopher Lane, happened just after 7:00 in the morning, and it was operated by Pioneer Transportation.

This is all we've got for you this morning, these live pictures. Now it looks like just a sedan is what hit them. Now that we can see the full shot of the car behind, rear-ended, some minor injuries. Nothing more on that at this moment.

We're going to continue to follow this story for you.

Ahead this morning, Andy Serwer "Minding Your Business." He'll tell you just how much it's going to cost you to heat your home this winter. That's ahead. Stay with us.

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