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American Morning
Mark Foley Investigation; North Korea Sanctions; Interview With Mario Cuomo; Pagan Burial Ground
Aired October 13, 2006 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: More testimony today in the Mark Foley investigation. Lawmakers trying to learn what Republican leaders knew and when they knew it.
Today the Republican in charge of the page program will tell his story. Yesterday it was Foley's former chief of staff front and center.
CNN's Andrea Koppel live now from Capitol Hill with more -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Miles.
Well, until two years ago, Kirk Fordham had been one of Mark Foley's closest aides and claims he not only knew about his boss's affinity for young pages, but also claims he tried to raise red flags about it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL (voice over): Kirk Fordham emerged after four and a half hours of questioning by members of the House Ethics Committee. His attorney said Fordham had been forthcoming.
TIMOTHY HEAPHY, KIRK FORDHAM'S ATTORNEY: He's been truthful and cooperative and will continue to be throughout this and other investigations.
KOPPEL: Hours earlier, reporters cornered Fordham at his Washington home and peppered him with questions.
QUESTION: You never saw a sign of it?
KIRK FORDHAM, FMR. FOLEY CHIEF OF STAFF: Not really.
I slept very well last night. I had a good night's sleep. I talked to my family and, you know, I'm just going to tell the truth.
KOPPEL: But while Fordham may be sleeping well, it's a safe bet some House Republican aides are not. That's because a source familiar with Fordham's account of events tells CNN he planned to testify he'd warned a top aide to Speaker Dennis Hastert about Foley's behavior several years ago. That directly contradicts the speaker's version that his office first learned about Foley's inappropriate e-mails to House pages last fall. FORDHAM: I'm going to tell the truth. That will become apparent once the report is issued.
KOPPEL: But in a written statement, Speaker Hastert's chief of staff has disputed Fordham's allegation, saying simply what Kirk Fordham said did not happen.
The other Republican who testified Thursday was West Virginia congresswoman Shelley Moore Capito, one of three House members responsible for overseeing the page program.
REP. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R), PAGE BOARD MEMBER: I'm a member of the page board who was not informed of the e-mail messages that were sent, and I want to see this investigation go forth quickly and reach a conclusion.
KOPPEL: But while Capito was in the dark about Foley until two weeks ago, Illinois Republican John Shimkus, the board's chairman, was not.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: And Congressman Shimkus claims that he was first notified about Foley's inappropriate e-mails last fall and was one of those who actually met with Foley last fall to tell him to knock it off. Congressman Shimkus will have a chance to tell his story when he meets with the House Ethics Committee later today -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Andrea Koppel on Capitol Hill.
Thank you very much.
President Bush is standing by embattled House Speaker Dennis Hastert. The president appeared with ha Hastert for the first time since the Foley scandal erupted. It happened at a fund-raiser in Chicago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to say this to you. I am proud to be standing with the current speaker of the House who is going to be the future speaker of the House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: The president never mentioned the scandal.
On to another scandal. Ohio Republican Bob Ney pleading guilty today to two felony charges. The Justice Department recommending a sentence of just over two years. Ney has admitted to conspiracy and making false statements in connection with the Jack Abramoff bribery case. Ney is also expected to resign his House seat today -- Betty.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the Bush administration wants a vote today at the U.N. Security Council on sanctions against North Korea for its reported testing of a nuclear device. So what are the administration's real chances of getting that vote?
CNN Senior United Nations Correspondent Richard Roth joins us live.
Richard, talked to you a little bit earlier. It don't look so good for today, but it could happen soon.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. U.N. CORRESPONDENT: This weekend perhaps. The United States is pushing hard for a resolution that would punish North Korea for its nuclear test, but do sanctions really work?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH (voice over): North Korean diplomats don't say much, but ask about sanctions and their diplomats can be blunt.
PAK GIL YUN, NORTH KOREAN AMB. TO U.N.: Sanctions will not solve the problems at all.
ROTH: But the U.N. Security Council is banking on sanctions to pressure North Korea to change its behavior. Sanctions remain a popular option in the diplomatic tool kit, but do they work?
KOFI ANNAN, SECRETARY-GENERAL, UNITED NATIONS: Sanctions can be a blunt instrument. So you have to be very careful as to how you apply the sanctions and what kind of sanctions can be used. And there are times when sanctions can be effective.
ROTH: Effective in cases like South Africa, where economic sanctions get partial credit for ending apartheid. Its leaders deciding apartheid wasn't worth the rising financial pain from sanctions.
KIM ELLIOTT, INST. FOR INTERNATIONAL ECONOMICS: It's still a balancing act in terms of what sanctions are imposed, what countries are involved, and whether or not you're actually able to hit key nodes in a target economy or not.
ROTH: In Libya, Moammar Gadhafi may have seen the U.S. invasion of Iraq and realized his weapons were more a liability than a benefit, but some say he decided over time his weapons weren't worth the cost to his oil industry
JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: I think there have been a number of successful sanctions regimes, not the least of which was the sanctions regime that helped persuade Libya after a sustained period to give up its own pursuit of weapons of mass destruction.
ROTH: What about Iran? Current U.S. sanctions don't appear to be curbing Iran's nuclear desires. Iran's oil holds too much appeal for other nations to buy into sanctions so far.
There are cases of where the world does impose sanctions. The United Nations put travel and financial sanctions on al Qaeda and the Taliban, bans that have loopholes. Currently, U.N. sanctions now target several African nations, mostly arms embargoes to cut off weapons to warring factions. But weapons bans are notoriously weak and hard to enforce without strict monitoring.
A current Security Council member knows the dilemma.
NANA EFFAH-APENTENG, GHANAIAN AMB. TO U.N.: We need a cooperation of the international community as a whole. And it's not always that it's effective. But we cannot do without -- without sanctions.
ROTH: Broad sanctions were in place on Saddam Hussein's Iraq for more than a decade, containing a dictator but causing massive suffering.
JAN EGELAND, U.N. HUMANITARIAN AID UNDERSECRETARY: But these sanctions must not hurt the ordinary people. A ruler will always eat its food. The women and the children in the villages, that will often suffer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: To win support from China and Russia, the United States has removed some of the toughest sanctions elements in this resolution. The hard bargaining continues later today here in New York -- Betty.
NGUYEN: Well, if some of the tougher portions have been removed, are these sanctions really going to do the trick, or are they just simply going to be a slap on the wrist, if they even get approved?
ROTH: That's a good question, because North Korea continues to pursue a nuclear program while allowing millions of its own people to continue to starve. Many question whether any sanctions will work on the regime of Kim Jong-il
NGUYEN: All right.
CNN's Richard Roth.
Thank you for that, Richard.
And this morning in Iraq, a deadly attack on a police station. The town of Hilla, which is about 60 miles south of Baghdad, the commander of the police battalion there, well, he was killed when a bomb planted in a police station exploded. Seven others were wounded in that blast. Investigators say the bomb appeared to have been placed under the commander's desk.
Britain's top general in Iraq dropping a bombshell today and offering a grim assessment of the situation there. General Richard Dannatt told a British newspaper troops are making matters worse in Iraq, while making Brits at home less secure. And he said that the troops under his command, 7,500 of them, should be pulled out of Iraq soon. This morning he is backpedaling just a bit, saying he supports a staggered withdrawal over the next two to three years.
O'BRIEN: This near's Nobel Peace Prize awarded just a few hours ago. The winners, Bangladeshi Muhammad Yunus and the bank he found, Grameen Bank, sharing the $1.3 million prize.
Now, he is known as the banker to the poor. Sixty-six-year-old Yunus made his mark by granting small loans to the poor. The bank has made loans to six million Bangladeshis. The average loan is just about $200.
Yunus says lasting peace cannot be achieved if people cannot break out of poverty.
Coming up, winter months away, but try telling that to folks in Buffalo this morning. Most of them can't even hear us right now because they don't have any power. We'll have more on that unwelcome surprise in October -- snow.
And the former Virginia governor, Mark Warner, takes his hat out of the ring. Why would he do that? We're going to ask somebody who -- a famous non-contender, non-runner for the presidency. Mario Cuomo is with us. We will ask him what was on his mind a few years ago about that subject as well.
Take care. And we'll see you in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Check this out. A rare early October snowstorm dropped up to two feet of snow in Buffalo, New York. It is Friday, the 13th. Schools are closed today, and more than 220,000 people are without electricity. Now, yesterday Buffalo set a new record for the snowiest day in October.
And there is plenty of snow in Michigan. In fact, Detroit set a record of the earliest snow measured there. And today's game three of the American League Championship series between the Tigers and Oakland, well, that had been moved up to 4:30 for the best chance of actually getting that game in.
So, if you are headed out the door, consider yourself lucky because many people are just snowed in.
Chad Myers is in the weather center with the latest on that.
Good morning, Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, Betty.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Chad.
The midterm elections might be only weeks away, but a stunning announcement switched our political focus to the 2008 presidential race yesterday. Former Virginia governor Mark Warner, with millions in his treasure chest and a staff of 35, said this yesterday...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARK WARNER, FMR. VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: Politically, this appears to be the right time for me to take the plunge. At this point I want to have a real life. And while the chance may never come again, I shouldn't move forward unless I'm willing to put everything else in my life on the back burner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: So that changes the picture quite a bit. He was seen as an alternative to Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Former New York governor Mario Cuomo knows a little bit about decisions on whether to run or not to run. It was about 15 years ago we spent a lot of time talking about that.
Governor, good to have you with us on the program.
MARIO CUOMO, FMR. NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Good to be here.
O'BRIEN: That explanation, "I need a real life," do you buy that?
CUOMO: Well if he says so I'm going to believe him, but after having done it for a year, having studied, having raised $10 million, I'm sure that during that period he gave considerable thought to what it would mean to his family. So there must be something more. And I think -- I think there are a number of possibilities.
He could still run for vice president. He could run again for governor. I think he's probably considered the fact that he's not doing well in the primaries. This is very early.
He is probably an excellent general election candidate. In other words, if you could today say he's our Democratic candidate, that's fine. But to get there, he'd have to win in New Hampshire and Iowa. So the calculation they have to make is, can I get past those primaries?
And John Edwards is doing very well in Iowa. Even Kerry is in Iowa. So, it could have -- it could have been a political judgment, as well as a simple judgment about his family.
O'BRIEN: Does that calculation, though, and does the fact that the primary system, the way it's set up, kind of polarize candidates on both sides? You get people more to the left, more to the right, depending on which party you're in.
Does that winnow out people who would be good for the country. The middle is, after all, where the country is.
CUOMO: A lot of things winnow out, to use your words, people who would be good for the country. A lot of people who probably would be good for the country don't like politics. They don't like its unfairness. They don't like the idea of offering yourself to be scrutinized. Remember, when a man like Mark Warner goes into politics, what he's saying is, I'm going to -- leaving the business life. Now you can investigate everything I've ever done. Starting in the cradle. And maybe even twist it. And maybe attack me for it.
So that's one problem.
The problem of money is another problem. You are facing a situation where you're going into a business, politics, that's utterly imperfect.
If you have a lot of money, you get power. And if you don't have a lot of money, you don't get power. And so, as a politician, you have to spend time with the money.
O'BRIEN: So you have to sell your soul?
CUOMO: Well, it's a hard life. Now, that notwithstanding, a lot of good people go into it.
I have a son who could have chosen not to go into politics, make a lot of money. He's bright, he's young, he was -- worked for Clinton, President Clinton. Has a great reputation.
He chose to go in. Why? It's very old-fashioned. He really believes in service.
He really believes, look, this is a better way to spend my life. I will make less money, I'll have more problems, but I'll do it.
Mark Warner himself did that as governor. And after Mark Warner, there will be Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, John Kerry, John Edwards, all very good people.
And on the Republican side, from this state, you'll have George Pataki, who's already running, Rudy Giuliani, Hillary Clinton. That's three possibilities of very good people who know everything I'm saying and say, I want to do it anyway.
O'BRIEN: All right. Very quickly, if you can -- I know it's a big question -- the Democrats, are they poised well right now for 2008?
CUOMO: Right now it's a seesaw. Right now I think what most Democrats are saying is Bush is down, which he is, because his end of the seesaw went down due to -- due to his ineptitude. That lifts you up.
And you can make the mistake of thinking you got up through your own power. We didn't. We got up because he went down. And that's the way a lot of Democrats think they are going to win this election, by saying he's bad, they fouled up Iraq, the economy is good for rich people but not poor people.
I don't think -- maybe they'll get by and we'll win congressional seats. I think we will. You can't win a presidency that way. To win the presidency you have to say not just he was wrong, here's a better solution. Here's what we do in Iraq. Here's how we get out. Here's how we spend more money on working people.
In this country, right now, it's been skewed toward the very wealthy. Even the Republicans admit it to a point where Kevin Phillips, a great Republican analyst, says the fragmentation, the fact that the people who are really doing well in this country now are the very wealthy people and not the working middle class, that's slipping.
You have to come to this country and say I'm a Democrat, I'm going to change that, and here's now how. And here's how I'm going to get the money to do it. If they don't have the guts to do that, then the Democrats are not going to deserve to win.
O'BRIEN: All right. Some good advice there offered, submitted for your approval, if Democrats are listening. And I'm sure they were.
CUOMO: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Mario Cuomo, the former governor of New York.
Thanks for your time.
CUOMO: Thank you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Betty.
NGUYEN: Coming up, a forgotten graveyard buried deep beneath Vatican City. We're going to take a look at an incredible discovery.
Plus, we are "Minding Your Business". YouTube is one of the most popular sites on the Internet, right? Well, there is one company in Ohio that absolutely hates it.
Andy is going to explain. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: The Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica, there is no shortage of sights to see at the Vatican. But what lies beneath? That's a good question.
AMERICAN MORNING'S Delia Gallagher has been digging things up -- well, kind of.
This is quite a story.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT: It is. Some spectacular discoveries.
Starting today at the Vatican they are opening one of their exciting new discoveries to tourists, a discovery first made three years ago in the most unusual way.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GALLAGHER (voice over): All the Vatican wanted was a place to park more cars. Instead, they found a place where antiquity parked its dead.
FRANCESCO BURANELLI, DIRECTOR, VATICAN MUSEUMS (through translator): We have a section of Roman society between the first and fourth century, from poor people and the middle class, to the very important families.
GALLAGHER: Deep beneath Vatican City, behind St. Peter's Basilica, is an ancient Pagan burial ground, complete with a mosaic of Dionysus, the Greek god of wine. In all, there are some 40 mausoleums and 200 tombs, some of which have terracotta tubes which were used by families to feed honey to their dead.
There's also the grave of Alsimus (ph), a slave of the emperor Nero, and according to his headstone, a chief set designer at Rome's infamous theater, Pompeii, the place Julius Caesar was killed.
And amid all this Paganism, there may even be some evidence of early Christianity
GIANDOMENICO SPINOLA, ARCHAEOLOGIST, VATICAN MUSEUMS (through translator): We have one piece of evidence that could prove a Christian presence in the burial site. This element of the praying woman suggests the possibility that the man buried inside was a Christian.
GALLAGHER: It's found on a stone coffin of a man who lived from 270 to 290 A.D. And all of it can now be viewed by the public, even though the restoration itself won't be complete for several years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GALLAGHER: And the burial site is second in importance to the one underneath St. Peter's Basilica, which is believed to contain relics of Saint Peter, who was the first pope.
NGUYEN: Just a treasure chest there.
GALLAGHER: Yes. And the amazing story about this is that they discovered a Latin inscription on a piece of concrete being hauled away by a dump truck, you know, at the construction site. So somebody said, wait, there might be something here.
NGUYEN: Thank goodness someone saw it, though.
GALLAGHER: Yes. Amazing.
NGUYEN: Delia Gallagher, thank you so much for that.
GALLAGHER: Thank you.
NGUYEN: Miles.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Betty.
Everybody loves YouTube, right? Andy Serwer has found somebody or something that does not.
ANDY SERWER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "FORTUNE": Yes. One company out there in Ohio is mighty ticked off at YouTube, Miles. A company called Universal Tube & Rollform, which is machinery company near Toledo, Ohio -- I don't know if you can see where this is going.
O'BRIEN: I see where it's heading.
SERWER: Well, they've got themselves a Web site, Universal Tube. That's right, their Web site is UTube -- spelled UTube.
O'BRIEN: As opposed to...
(CROSSTALK)
SERWER: Right, as opposed to YouTube, which is the video site, which is YouTube.
O'BRIEN: Right.
SERWER: Now, you're right, exactly, their site, this machinery company in Toledo, is just crashed. It is dead. They can't do any business at all.
Listen to this. This company, their Web site got 68 million hits in August. I would venture to say that 67.98 of those were wrong. Right?
O'BRIEN: I'd suspect they're not buying a lot of machinery, no.
SERWER: They tried to get in touch with Google -- YouTube first, and now Google, and now they just can't get them. You know, the phone is off the hook, they're busy, they're making billion-dollar deals. Meanwhile, this poor company in Ohio is having problems.
O'BRIEN: It could be good for business.
SERWER: It could be. Well, I tell you, it's a problem -- it's a problem for me, a similar situation. My column at CNN Money is called "Street Life". That's the name of my column. A lot of people type it into Google. If you go to streetlife.com, that's a porn Web site.
O'BRIEN: OK.
SERWER: And we've had discussions about me buying the name and stuff, but it just hasn't worked out.
O'BRIEN: OK.
SERWER: It's kind of fun.
O'BRIEN: Why don't we press on here?
SERWER: Yes, let's press on.
Now, you know CBGB's, the rock 'n' roll club in New York City?
O'BRIEN: Yes. It's famous.
SERWER: It's the cradle of punk rock. It really is. And it's closing down -- closing down on Sunday, the final show.
It's where punk rock was born. Patti Smith, the Ramones, Talking Heads all got their start there. And country, bluegrass blues.
O'BRIEN: What does OMFUG stand for?
SERWER: OM -- I've forgotten. It's something like...
O'BRIEN: Probably can't say it on TV.
SERWER: Yes -- no, you can't say in on. That's why we can't say it.
And, you know, I remember going there decades ago -- I'm dating myself -- and, you know, throwing beer bottles around with everyone because that was going on in there. And what happened -- and it was a dangerous neighborhood. And the Bowery, we know what that stands for.
O'BRIEN: Right.
SERWER: And, you know, the place has basically just gotten gentrified. The rents have gone through the roof, and it's not the neighborhood for a rock 'n' roll club anymore. So, sadly, it's closing down.
O'BRIEN: Gave them the heebie-jeebies and off they went.
Where are they going? The burbs?
SERWER: It's just -- yes -- no. They're going to Jersey. No, they're shut down.
O'BRIEN: What's next?
SERWER: Next, I will have to check. We are going to be talking about Toyota rolling out a hybrid of their biggest selling car. So this is just another huge ramping up of hybrid production for Toyota.
O'BRIEN: Electric news, as always.
All right. Thank you, Andy. See you in a bit.
SERWER: Thanks, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Coming up, how the Mark Foley scandal is playing in places like Minnesota. There's a fascinating race we're going to tell you about.
And why is it so hard for the FBI to recruit Muslim agents? We'll look at a big challenge for the war on terror ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: On Capitol Hill today, more key testimony in the Mark Foley page scandal. The man in charge of the page program, Illinois Republican John Shimkus, says he confronted Foley last fall about his inappropriate e-mails to a page. Shimkus says the boy's parents did not want him to tell the other House members overseeing the program. The Foley effect being felt far from the halls of Capitol Hill, affecting congressional races all across the country.
CNN's Keith Oppenheim live in Stillwater, Minnesota with a look at a race, a very fascinating race, and how it's become even closer than it was before.
Hello, Keith.
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Miles.
I'm in the sixth congressional district outside of St. Paul, Minneapolis, and this is a district that tends to run Republican, and was pretty much doing that before the Foley scandal broke, but now it's anyone's guess who could win this race, in large part because the Democratic candidate jumped on this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Minnesota, Patty Wetterling is well-known. Seventeen years ago, her 11-year-old son Jacob was kidnapped and never found. She later became a national advocate for child safety. Now, Wetterling, a Democrat, is running for an open seat in Minnesota's sixth congressional district.
PATTY WETTERLING (D), MINNESOTA CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: I want to go to Washington to be a strong voice for the middle-class families.
OPPENHEIM: In September, Wetterling's race against Republican opponent Michelle Bachmann was losing steam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to come by and say hi.
OPPENHEIM: Bachmann, a conservative state senator was ahead in the polls by nine points.
MICHELLE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: I want to get rid of the death tax for people in this country and do some major changes on capital gains.
OPPENHEIM: Political scientist Steven Smith says Bachmann appeared confident, and Wetterly unsure, often relying on her notes
STEVEN SMITH, POL. SCIENTIST: Until she starts talking about child-safety issues, and then her intensity ratchets up a few notches, you can see her energy level rise, she becomes very, very effective.
OPPENHEIM: In a strange twist, Wetterling knew Mark Foley. She had worked on child-safety legislation with him, so when the scandal broke, Wetterling believed she had the credibility to take a big swing and ran this ad.
ANNOUNCER: Congressional leaders have admitted covering up the predatory behavior of a Congressman who used the Internet to molest children.
OPPENHEIM: The Bachmann camp crowd foul, saying Republicans never admitted to a coverup.
BACHMANN: My opponent took this issue, and rather than being interested in making sure that children were protect, she was busy lopping off the head of Republicans.
OPPENHEIM: Still, analysts say Wetterling gained, and in the latest polls she is just three points behind Michelle Bachmann.
BACHMANN: Thank you for your vote.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a dead heat. I think this is a race that Michelle Bachmann was likely to win, and now you'd have to say it's a tossup.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OPPENHEIM: This race is not just close, it's also crucial to both political parties. Get this, Miles -- both campaigns say they have spent well over $2 million, and it's possible that this race could be the most expensive congressional contest in Minnesota history -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: That's an awful lot of money. All right, Keith Oppenheim, thank you very much -- Betty.
NGUYEN: Miles, the FBI has been criticized for not doing a complete overhaul after the failures of September 11th. One of those criticisms, their inability to recruit Muslims or Arabic speakers.
CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena joins me with more on this. It's still a problem today, isn't it?
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is but everybody agrees this is important. This is a priority, right. The FBI has made hiring agents who are Muslim or speak Arabic a top priority since the September 11th attacks, but the FBI is fighting an uphill battle, and there is only so much it can do.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA (voice over): Out of more than 12,000 FBI agents, only about a dozen are Muslims.
ROBERT MUELLER, DIRECTOR, FBI: I would say we have recruited hard for Arabic-American, Muslim-American persons to become FBI agents, and we have fallen short. We continue to strive to do that.
ARENA: Foria Younis says it's important to understand the Muslim culture to understand the problem. Younis is a Muslim of Pakistani descent. She was an FBI special agent for 10 years before leaving in February to start up her own consulting business.
For starters, she says, Muslim parents typically do not encourage their kids to go into law enforcement.
FORIA YOUNIS, FORMER FBI AGENT: You get in college to be a doctor. You get into college to be an engineer, a lawyer. Those are the type of white collar professions that Muslim parents really want their kids to go into.
ARENA: What's more in many of their home countries police are often corrupt.
YOUNIS: Therefore, most people don't look upon being a police officer as a good thing.
ARENA: Younis says her experience with the FBI was a positive one. But after 9/11, she says fear and mistrust caused a wall to go up between the FBI and the Muslim community. Even some members of her own family disapproved of her working for the government.
YOUNIS: The FBI was arresting a lot of people and deporting them, because they were illegal, out of status immigrants. The Muslim community, I talked to some people, and they felt Muslims were being kidnapped and disappearing. Because they were just being picked up off the street. They were disappearing but they were being deported back to their home country.
ARENA: To make matters worse, many agents have had zero exposure to the Muslim culture. And only 34 speak Arabic. It's often hard for Muslims to pass background security checks, especially if they come from countries considered friendly to terrorists.
YOUNIS: When you come from a country like that, it's more likely that there's going to be some factor that comes up in your background check.
ARENA: And as Younis now knows firsthand, the pay for Arabic and other Middle Eastern language speakers is much more lucrative in the private sector.
YOUNIS: The salary is different -- it is difficult for the government to compete.
ARENA: Younis fears the situation is only getting worse. Certain pockets of the Muslim community are growing more isolated, hostile toward not only the FBI but the rest of American society.
YOUNIS: Some communities, what I'm seeing is, especially in larger cities, the Muslim communities stay within themselves, and I just don't think that's healthy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: Younis says that when communities become isolated, that's what leads to extremism. Unfortunately, the combination, isolation, extremism, can by deadly.
NGUYEN: We've seen it. Okay. So this is a priority, obviously. We know the challenges here. So what's being done? How can the FBI increase their recruitment rolls?
ARENA: They are doing all they can. They're going to job fairs. They're going to college campuses. They are really aggressively trying to recruit.
NGUYEN: But they can't raise the pay.
ARENA: They can't, because that's mandated. It's capped for agents, so they can't compete with the private sector. And, you know, it's still -voluntary. There's no draft to join the FBI.
NGUYEN: That's true.
ARENA: Only so much that they can do. And it's really. It's getting out there, and it's improving those relations, and it's trying to continue to close that culture gap.
NGUYEN: All right, Kelli Arena, thank you so much for that. Appreciate that.
And you do want to be sure to stay with CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.
O'BRIEN: This just in to CNN, with some new pictures coming to us on the video wall. Congressman Bob Ney reporting for his sentencing at -- let's take a look and see if it's rolling there on the wall. Bob Ney is reporting for his sentencing to enter a guilty plea today, he faces up to 10 years in prison in the Jack Abramoff bribery scandal. We'll keep you posted on that one.
NGUYEN: Coming up, a blood curdling treat for you on this Friday the 13th. We'll visit the infamous "Psycho" house, and meet one of Universal Studio's horror movie masters. We'll have an up-close look at the eerie evolution of fright flicks, ahead.
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O'BRIEN: And now another chapter in the sad saga of Hewlett Packard, and this one, I guess, is the prequel. Carly Fiorina got her walking papers before the corporate spying scandal erupted, sending HP into a legal morass and a PR freefall. When she ran the company, she, too, was worried about boardroom leaks, and as it turned out, though, this was the least of her worries.
In her new book "Tough Choices" Carly tells her side of the story. Joining us now, Carly Fiorina and of course Andy Serwer, our resident expert on business.
Carly, good to have you with us.
CARLY FIORINA, FMR. HEWLETT-PACKARD CEO: Great to be here.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about Patti Dunn (ph) for a minute. Do you think she's been made a scapegoat?
FIORINA: You know, your heart breaks for Patti. The health issues that she's dealing with, what you read in the front page every day. I think this whole situation, though, the leak, the investigation into the leak, the exposure of the investigation into the leak, all of this is symptomatic of personal agendas overtaking people's sense of responsibility for a public company. I think all of it is an example of breakdown in judgment, and perspective and ethics, never mind the legalities.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Carly, I want to ask you about that, though. The board of HP and top HP executives, obviously very intelligent, sophisticated people, how did they end up engaging in this ludicrous Watergate-like behavior?
FIORINA: You know, I wrote a book about business because, for me, business is all about people. I started out as a secretary. And I have learned in the course of my business career, that whether you're in the mailroom or the board room, people are people, and people sometimes become overwhelmed by their personal agendas and their personal animosities. People sometimes lose perspective about what the big picture is. And sometimes people are unable to confront tough issues directly, face to face, head on, on top of the table, and they go underground. That's part of human nature, and human nature plays out in a boardroom sometimes as well.
O'BRIEN: You became a real icon of the business world and a hero for a lot of women, rising to the top as a woman at such a large company. Such a public role. In retrospect, was it a mistake to be so public in that role, or is that unavoidable?
FIORINA: Well, you know, in many ways, it truly was not my choice. I was brought in to transform an iconic company, and I was many firsts -- the first outsider, the first non-engineer, the first person who wasn't from Silicon Valley. I didn't come from the computer industry. And oh, by the way, I happen to be a woman. And I was asked to lead a change, and change is always resisted.
And so, as a leader of change, I was going to become the target of opposition and criticism. That's human nature. And I was also going to become the object of a lot of discussion and speculation. It made my job harder in many ways, but I think in many ways, it just came with the territory.
O'BRIEN: And what's next for you? Political office?
FIORINA: Public service is a possibility. I think there are some issues that matter to me, like global poverty alleviation, competitiveness in education, but I would also go back into business again as well.
O'BRIEN: Carly Fiorina is our guest. Andy Serwer, thank you as well. The book is "Tough Choices."
Thank you very much for your time.
FIORINA: You're welcome. Thank you.
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NGUYEN: We're going to be right back. Stay with us.
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