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Nancy Grace

Vermont University Student Victim of Homicide

Aired October 16, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. The prime suspect in the murder of a 21-year-old Vermont coed in court today. denying any and all involvement. Twenty-one-year-old Michelle Gardner-Quinn disappeared last Saturday night after a birthday celebration with friends at a local restaurant. That search ended Friday. Manner of death, homicide.
And now breaking news out of Florida, as well. Just hours ago, authorities announced they discovered the car belonging to a family of four before they were shot to death on a Florida turnpike. We analyze the evidence left behind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Vermont medical examiner`s office has completed Michelle`s medical exam. We have some preliminary results. The manner of death has been classified as a homicide, with the cause of death listed as pending. The cause of death will be listed as soon as test results from the medical exam and additional information from the investigation becomes available.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First to Vermont. Today the man charged as the chief suspect in the disappearance of a 21-year-old Vermont college coed in court, denying any and all involvement.

Straight out to Adam Silverman with "The Burlington Free Press." What happened in court today?

ADAM SILVERMAN, "BURLINGTON FREE PRESS": Mr. Rooney, through his lawyer, pleaded not guilty to charges of sexual assault on a victim younger than 16 and lewd and lascivious conduct with a child. Those are allegations that date to the late 1990s and are unconnected to his suspected involvement, according to police, and Michelle`s disappearance and death last weekend.

GRACE: OK, explain something to me. Out to Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer, who has been there on the scene since the beginning. Rupa, how did these charges have anything to do with the 21-year-old Vermont coed?

RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, basically, these charges came about because they were investigating and questioning people surrounding Brian Rooney. And in the course of their investigation and interviewing of his ex-wife and various other family members, they learned that he had behaved in this manner. And charges had not been brought years ago when this had first occurred, but through the course of their investigation, as I mentioned, they decided that they had enough evidence.

GRACE: OK. So as a point of investigation, Adam Silverman, is Rupa correct that these charges were learned about during the investigation of the 21-year-old coed?

SILVERMAN: Yes, Nancy. That`s exactly what the police have told us.

GRACE: And what do they consist of?

SILVERMAN: Well, the formal charges accuse Rooney of twice assaulting the same girl, first in 1996, when she was 13, and again two years later, when she was 15 years old, once involving inappropriate touching and the other involving a drugging and forcible rape.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Vermont medical examiner`s office has completed Michelle`s medical exam. We will have some preliminary results. The manner of death has been classified as a homicide, with the cause of death listed as pending. The cause of death will be listed as soon as test results from the medical exam and additional information from the investigation becomes available.

Officers continue to pursue a variety of leads and to obtain information in this case. Officers have completed several searches and conducted numerous interviews. Our investigation continues to focus on Brian Rooney`s actions and whereabouts from Saturday, October 7, at 2:30 AM to mid-morning Monday, October 9. We are still interested in any relevant information the public may have regarding Mr. Rooney and the red Jeep Grand Cherokee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Again, today Rooney in court, a 36-year-old local construction worker. Back out to the reporter with "The Burlington Free Press," Adam Silverman. Adam, I understand that there are items belonging to Michelle Gardner-Quinn that police still want to find.

SILVERMAN: Yes, that`s right. They are looking for an earing, a sneaker, her cellphone, her purse and perhaps a few other items of her clothing.

GRACE: I believe we`ve got shots of those. Let`s put those up. Police tonight asking to find these -- a chandelier-type silver earring, the match belonging to Michelle Gardner-Quinn, the 21-year-old Vermont coed, one of her sneakers, just one of them to match this one, a Converse gray strings (ph) and black or charcoal gray in color, a cellphone that`s a Kyocera, also known as the Phantom. We don`t have a shot of it, but they`re also looking for her black Puma bag. It`s got a white strap. She was last seen using that.

Also, let`s take a look at that grainy video that emerged at the end of last week. Police were at a standstill until they went back to a local jewelry store to take a look at their video footage from the night she went missing, last Saturday night, after a birthday celebration with friends at a local restaurant, everything innocent until she leaves, apparently meets up with Rooney, pictured here, 36-year-old local construction worker. He says she asked to borrow his phone.

Back out to Adam Silverman with"The Burlington Free Press." Now, how is it that they actually figured out who Rooney was, Adam?

SILVERMAN: Nancy, according to her friends, who I talked to last week when this was still a missing persons investigation, Michelle placed a call with that borrowed cellphone to at least one of her friends who she was trying to find, to spend time with that night. So they had that number, and the police were able to find that number and the friends were able to find that number on the receiving phone`s caller ID.

GRACE: Uh-huh. So if it hadn`t been for that cellphone call, Art Harris, they may have never connected Brian Rooney, the 36-year-old guy, chief suspect, with the death of Michelle Gardner-Quinn, right, Art?

ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, he was perhaps smart, but not as smart as he thought. By loaning his cellphone to her, he, in fact, gave the police a fingerprint they were able to trace through the phone company.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are looking for one of Michelle`s silver earrings that is currently available on our Web site. It is described as a sterling silver chandelier-type hoop earring. They include a black Converse all-star, low-cut canvas type sneaker with off-white laces, a women`s size 8, a black Puma shoulder bag with a white strap, and a Kyocera cellphone model number KX 414.

We`ve received hundreds of tips from the public during the course of this investigation, and we strongly urge anyone with relevant information about Brian Rooney or any of the described property to contact us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go through the property again. Tonight police asking for your help. They don`t have this case nailed down. This is one of the matching chandelier earrings belonging to Michelle Gardner-Quinn. She, we believe, lost her life sometime in the early morning hours of last Saturday night. That chandelier silver earring, this Converse tennis shoe, a match to that, gray strings, also Kyocera cellphone, also known as the Phantom. Also, police are looking for a black Puma bag with a white stripe.

Back out to Adam Silverman with "The Burlington Free Press." He was in the courtroom today, Brian Rooney appearing -- let`s take a look at those charges -- on unrelated charges. There`s Rooney in court. He`s got unrelated charges of lewd and lascivious conduct on a child. That carries about 15 years behind bars. Sex assault on a minor. That carries a 20- year sentence in the penitentiary. He got $150,000 bail. There`s the judge that heard the case today.

To Adam Silverman. I understand that these charges were discovered in the investigation of Michelle`s disappearance. But who are the alleged victims in this assault on a minor?

SILVERMAN: Nancy, in keeping especially with our policy here at "The Burlington Free Press," we`re not going to get into naming the alleged victims...

GRACE: I don`t want a name.

SILVERMAN: ... of sexual assault. No, I...

GRACE: I don`t want a name.

SILVERMAN: They are -- I`d say the easiest way I might be able to describe them to you without saying anything to identify them are, they`re young women who he knew through various relationships.

GRACE: OK. Young women he knew through various relationships. We are not naming any victims on our show, Adam Silverman. We realize that one of these young girls -- in fact, I think it`s the same victim -- was allegedly 14 years old at the time.

Back out to Art Harris, investigative reporter. I don`t want to name the 14-year-old victim, but what can you tell us about the nature of the alleged acts on the minor?

HARRIS: Nancy, it`s pretty horrendous. What`s charged is that he used chemical-soaked rags and other substances to render his victims unconscious before molesting them, once when this girl was 12, another at 14, and then made advances against the girl`s sister. And he`s charged with lewd and lascivious conduct with that child, apparently, for touching her through her underwear.

GRACE: OK. A child 14 years old is alleged in this. These are acts dating back.

Let`s unchain the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the New York jurisdiction, trial lawyer Jason Oshins. Joining us out of Chicago, defense attorney Steve Greenberg. Out to you, Steve Greenberg. You`ve got a guy who`s a chief suspect in the death of Michelle Gardner-Quinn, a 21- year-old coed minding her own business there in a sleepy college town, and now snowball, you take it right in the chin and the courtroom, you find out your client has allegations of a sex assault on a minor. What do you do, Steve?

STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, those sound like trumped-up charges just to hold them in custody. Those charges are from 1996 and 1998. Nothing was done with those charges for 10 years, 8 years, and all of a sudden, they come up? This girl`s no longer a minor. She apparently never pursued it when she reached the age of majority. I think those are trumped-up charges just to get him out of the way probably so that they can execute some search warrants, one probably on his house, one probably on his car. And he doesn`t have any ability to look for items or clean the car or clean the house out anymore.

So I think they`re just trying to lock him up. I expect that those charges will go absolutely nowhere.

GRACE: So your defense is, they`re all made up. That`s what you just told me. That`s the best you`ve got.

GREENBERG: My defense is, Where was this girl for all these years?

GRACE: OK. OK.

GREENBERG: Weren`t these charges investigated before?

GRACE: You had your chance. You said they`re all trumped-up, they`re all made up. OK. Jason Oshins...

GREENBERG: That`s right.

GRACE: ... do you want to echo that, or do you have a unique defense of your own?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, I`m not creative enough to come up with something all on my own. I`m going to go with counsel over here and say that`s exactly what this is.

GRACE: OK.

OSHINS: Whether or not they`re substantive or not, for now, they are trumped up because they`re stale, 10, 8 years old. They`re holding him so that they can work on him. They`re going to institute some sort of psychological...

GRACE: Work on him?

OSHINS: ... pressure over this and they`re going to go ahead and...

GRACE: Psychological pressure?

OSHINS: ... pursue him in interrogation.

GRACE: OK. You know he`s got a defense lawyer, right? How long do you think the defense attorney that`s on this case is going to allow the psychological pressure that you`re talking about?

OSHINS: Well, you know what, Nancy? It`s the psychological pressure of now being incarcerated, right, something new for him, a new experience. And perhaps that alone could work to their advantage, to the authorities...

GRACE: Well, I`ve got a surprise for you. Being arrested is not a brand-new experience for Mr. Rooney. Elizabeth, do we have that little resume he`s got? This guy is no stranger to a blue light in his rearview mirror, all right? Suspended license, he was arrested seven times. Disorderly conduct, three times. Leaving the scene of a crash back in `96 -- can you keep it rolling?

OSHINS: Nancy, those are...

GRACE: There we go -- burglary, grand larceny in `94, violated that probation in `93, another probation, stolen property `92, mischief `91, violation of a TRO on his wife in `91. That was dismissed in court. So arrests are not anything new for Mr. Rooney.

OSHINS: Arrests may be not new, obviously, by looking at his record. But facing a heavy-duty A felony incarceration, is we`re talking 15, 20 years, is a lot more substantive than minor misdemeanors, or minor felonies, for that matter.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Joining us, Chris in Alabama. Hi, Chris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good afternoon, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, dear. I want to know -- I was just wondering, how did Michelle know this murderer? How did she even know him?

GRACE: Now, Chris, it`s the alleged murderer. Let`s go out to Art Harris, investigative reporter. He`s been on the case from the get-go. Is there any evidence she knew him? That was one of my first questions. I agree with Chris. What do we know?

HARRIS: We don`t know that she knew him at all. You`re talking about Michelle. But Nancy, if you look at what was filed in court today, very interesting -- his ex-wife said that he threatened to kill her at least one time, according to the affidavit. And the quote is, "You will think I`m funny when I kill you," she was quoted as saying. "If you keep this up, I`ll bash your head in," he told her, the affidavit said.

Now, you know, I`m just wondering, Nancy. I hate to speculate, but if, in fact, the victim turns out to have a head injury as the cause of death, that would be very coincidental.

GRACE: You know what Art? I couldn`t hear your last sentence. What did you say?

HARRIS: I said, if the victim, if Michelle is found to have had a head injury, a trauma to the head as a cause of death, that would be very coincidental to how he threatened to kill his former wife, according to the affidavit filed in court.

GRACE: Very interesting and very coincidental. And Art, as many cases as you have covered in criminal court, you know there is no coincidence in criminal law. The reason I was showing that grainy video again that emerged toward the end of last week, that was along one of the main streets there in Burlington, Vermont.

And it shows her walking along with this 36-year-old construction worker, and according to people there at the restaurant, the bar where she was celebrating a birthday, she didn`t know this guy before. She walked out. They started walking along. He was walking along beside her. She had no idea of any past allegations of sex offenses. And she asked to use the guy`s phone.

HARRIS: Well, Nancy, people have said that, you know, How could someone be so careless? But you know, this is Burlington, Vermont. In `05, they had -- the state had eight murders total. Half of those were stranger murders. Last year -- so far this year, there have been 11 murders in the state. It is not, you know, a typical violent, you know, enclave. So someone walking around Burlington does not have -- and has a reasonable suspicion -- a reasonable expectation...

GRACE: Of safety.

HARRIS: ... of being safe.

GRACE: And another unusual fact tonight, authorities not releasing the manner of death. We know the cause of death, homicide. Tonight still keeping it tight to the vest, the manner of death of this 21-year-old girl. And police asking for your help.

We`ll all be right back, but very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." A stunning turn of events, a guilty plea hours ago from Joseph Duncan in the Idaho kidnap of 9-year-old Dylan and 11-year-old Shasta Groene and the murders of Dylan and his family. Under this sweetheart deal, Duncan escapes the death penalty. He gets three life sentences, no parole.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We continue to seek the public`s assistance in providing information about Mr. Rooney during the time period between 2:30 AM Saturday and Monday, October 16. As you can imagine, there is an extensive investigation still being conducted regarding the circumstances surrounding Michelle`s disappearance. All additional leads will continue to be followed. We are not done yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today -- in fact, just hours ago -- the chief suspect in the disappearance of 21-year-old Michelle Gardner-Quinn in court, last name Rooney, 36-year-old construction worker. We now learn out of this investigation other charges are being brought, including sex assault on a minor and lewd and lascivious behavior with a minor, we know stemming out of a prior relationship, a family member with a woman he was earlier involved with.

Out to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. Lauren thank you for being with us. There are a lot of reasons a 14-year-old girl doesn`t come forward when her sister`s significant other has allegedly assaulted her.

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Correct. I mean it, first of all, it`s embarrassing. She might be getting pressure even from her society, her parents, her culture to not come forward. And there`s also a sort of, We don`t trust the word of a 14-year-old girl. They have imaginations. They`re not sophisticated about things like assault and touch. So you know, it could be magical thinking, is sort of what we sort of...

GRACE: What you`re seeing...

HOWARD: ... we say to the...

GRACE: ... right now, Lauren...

HOWARD: ... it`s horrible. We don`t want to hear it.

GRACE: Lauren, what you`re seeing right now is a quote. These are quotes from the affidavit describing the sex assault, the alleged sex assault on the young girl.

HOWARD: Right.

GRACE: In fact, isn`t it true, Art Harris, that this girl actually had to go to the hospital to be treated for burn marks around her mouth, where Rooney allegedly held a rag dipped in some type of an ammonia onto her face to knock her out?

HARRIS: Well, Nancy, the affidavit does say that he used these rags, chemical-soaked rags, to knock these girls unconscious. And you know, he did the same thing, allegedly, to his wife. He was married for six months, and she charged him with -- you know, with rape and left him. She said he drugged her many times so he could rape her. That`s a quote.

GRACE: And to Adam Silverman with "The Burlington Free Press." Why aren`t police or authorities releasing the manner of death, Adam?

SILVERMAN: I can`t tell you, Nancy. I think that it`s because they want to keep investigating, as they`ve said, as best they can and put together the case as slowly and comprehensively as possible.

GRACE: We`ll all be right back in Vermont, but to tonight`s second "Case Alert." A Connecticut family is suing Sandals -- you know, the U.S.- run luxury resort. This is after a Jamaica car crash claiming the life of their 10-year-old little girl, Erin (ph). Jeff (ph) and Donna Babineau (ph) both claim wrongful death and negligence. They say the driver of the Sandals resort van was speeding and attempting to pass other cars on a two- lane Jamaica road. It ended in a high-speed collision. Little Erin died days later.

We have called Sandals resort. Still waiting for their response to the lawsuit.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you can imagine, there is an extensive investigation still being conducted regarding the circumstances surrounding Michelle`s disappearance. All additional leads will continue to be followed. We are not done yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Today the chief suspect in the disappearance of this girl in court.

Let`s go out to the lines. Mary Jo in New York. Hi, Mary Jo.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m just wondering if they are presently looking for a vehicle that this man might have owned.

GRACE: Good question. Adam Silverman?

SILVERMAN: No, Nancy, they are not looking for that vehicle. They have that vehicle. It`s been impounded. It`s been searched. What they`re hoping is that members of the public who might have seen that vehicle between the early morning hours of Saturday, October 7, and Monday, October 9, report what they saw to the authorities.

GRACE: And to Marc Klaas, president of Beyondmissing. How much time did we lose after police first ruled this guy out?

MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: What do you mean, after they first ruled him out? You mean at the very beginning, when they said he wasn`t involved?

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

KLAAS: Well, certainly, you know, there were many, many hours lost between the time that the little -- between the time that Michelle disappeared and the time she was reported missing. Incidentally, I would like to offer my condolence to her family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): To give you an idea of just how intense this investigation is, investigators actually got each and every garbage can for the entire length of the turnpike and they`re going through all that trash, as well as videotapes from each toll plaza. Detectives believe that the killer was in the car with the victims, pulled over, killed them, and then took off. And now we`re learning that the car was likely the victim`s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, breaking developments out of Florida. An entire family gunned down on a Florida turnpike, but why? Out to Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent.

Welcome back, Susan. What`s the latest?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is that they found this car, and they found it in an industrial park that`s near Palm Beach International Airport. Now, the question, of course: How did it get there? Did the killer dump it off there?

The location is kind of interesting. And, by the way, a worker who saw the car, found it to be out of place, called it into police. That`s how they discovered the vehicle.

Now, the location of this car. It`s about 10 miles north of where the family lived in a town called Green Acres; that`s where they lived. This just south of there. Now, the question to me or one question is: If, in fact, the family was home on Thursday night, did the killer -- since police suspect the killer was in the car with them -- drive north on the Florida turnpike, go up to Fort Pierce, Florida, about two counties north, about 70 miles north, then turn around, and head south, and then get these people out of the car, shoot and kill them, get back in the car, and continue south -- we know that, because that`s what police said -- and then dump this car off, again, where they did in Palm Beach County? Just an interesting sequence of events.

GRACE: Susan, a couple of quick questions. How old were the victims?

CANDIOTTI: The husband was killed a day before his 29th birthday.

GRACE: Yes.

CANDIOTTI: His wife, 25 years old. And these two little boys, only 3 and 4 years old. As you heard by now, the mom had the little boys tucked under her arms, apparently trying to use her body as a shield to protect them. But the sheriff says, absolutely, the bullets did not go through her body. He says the shooter aimed at those two little boys.

GRACE: Out to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. What does that suggest to you, someone that would aim at a 3- and 4-year-old little boy?

HOWARD: This has all the earmarks of an execution, Nancy. For this to be a random act of violence, it just does not make sense.

These people were shot multiple times. It was a passionless, goal- oriented, definitive desire to shoot to kill and get rid of these people. This looks to me as clearly as an execution as anything I`ve ever seen.

GRACE: Out to Steve Rogers, former member of the FBI joint terrorism task force, Steve, this is targeted to shoot these two little children execution style? Absolutely: a, it is a man, I can guarantee you; b, it was someone in their vehicle; and, c, it is someone that knew them.

ROGERS: Well, Nancy, two very important elements in this case began to surface today. Lauren`s right: It was an execution, perhaps with a tag on it, a message to anyone else who is monkeying with the individuals who executed these people. You cross the line, everybody`s going to suffer.

GRACE: Joining us here on the set is a special guest tonight, David Katz. He is a former firearms instructor with the FBI. David, thank you for being with us. You believe that, with the little bit of knowledge that we have, that a gun like a Glock semi was used. Why?

DAVID KATZ, FMR. FED. AGENT, SECURITY ANALYST: Well, several reasons. And, by the way, I was DEA, just taught at the FBI academy. Typically, .9- millimeter, semi-automatic pistols, .40 caliber and similar weapons are used in crimes of violence. Additionally, the description of the search for the empty shell casing indicates that a semiautomatic was used, as well.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody that went and viewed the bodies described it as a gruesome scene, one of the most gruesome they had seen in some time. We`re dealing with it. The deputies deal with this day in and day out. But when it involves kids, especially at such a young age, it`s tough. There`s no doubt about it.

The woman, in a defensive posture, had both of the children surrounded underneath her arms in an effort that, we can assume, was to protect them from the gunfire. There was no attempt to flee that we could determine. There was no attempt to fight back. The male was adjacent to the female, but he did not have that defensive posture of the children like the female did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back out to CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti, Susan, did they have on their clothes or their PJs, the little boys?

CANDIOTTI: Clothes. We`re told clothing. And the father was lying face up; the mother, as you heard, face down.

GRACE: And what time of the night did this take place?

CANDIOTTI: Sometime between 1:30 and 3:00 in the morning. They know this because there`s a housing development on the other side of the turnpike, maybe a quarter mile from where this happened. And a woman who had her windows open woke up to the sound of a popping, popping noises, looked out the window with her husband, peering into the dark -- it`s not a well-traveled stretch, and certainly not at that hour -- did not hear anything else, could not see anything else. So they didn`t call the police then. But in the morning when they woke up and heard and saw the helicopters, they called authorities.

GRACE: Here is what police had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The male victim is Jose Luis Escobedo, Jr. His date of birth is 10-14-77. Female victim is Yessica Guerrero Escobedo. Her date of birth is 09-05-81.

There has been a change in the children. The children are two boys, not a boy and a girl. Their date of birth is Luis Damian Escobedo. His date of birth is September 28, 2003. And Luis Julian Escobedo, his date of birth is March 7, 2002, which makes him 3 years old and 4 years old, respectively.

This victim family moved recently to the Green Acres area of West Palm Beach on June 15th. They moved here from the Brownsville, Texas, area. Notification of kin occurred last night in two cities, one in Brownsville, and the other one in Springhill, Texas. Also last night, a search warrant was executed at their residence. The correct residence is 1244 Olympic Circle in Green Acres, Florida.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Susan Candiotti joining us. Susan, I heard the police say that the mom was in a defensive posture. Explain?

CANDIOTTI: Because she was almost, they describe it, in a fetal position, kneeling down, face down on the ground, with one little boy tucked under each arm as though she was trying to protect them.

GRACE: And the bullets that killed the little boys did not pass through her body. They had to take aim at the 3- and 4-year-old, right?

CANDIOTTI: Well, he did say that they were aimed at, but everyone was shot multiple times. The autopsies were conducted today and were to be completed today. They should have some preliminary results by tomorrow morning.

GRACE: But I thought I heard -- and correct me if I`m wrong -- that the bullets that took the lives of the 3- and 4-year-old did not pass through the mother`s body.

CANDIOTTI: He is saying that. We simply don`t know, though, how many times they were shot. But you`re right. Yes, the sheriff said that those boys were aimed at.

GRACE: Susan, what about surveillance cameras in the area?

CANDIOTTI: They have collected nearly 500 hours` worth of cameras set up at toll booth plazas along Florida`s turnpike system to see whether they got any video of the Jeep going through any toll booths. If they found it, they haven`t said so. We don`t know whether they`re through going through those tapes.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Carrie in Oklahoma, hi, Carrie. Carrie, are you with me? OK, we`ll try that again. Carrie, I think we lost you.

While I`ve got you, to David Katz, what will we learn from the bullets?

KATZ: There`s a lot of things. First of all, if you look, this is a .9-millimeter cartridge. You`re going to have -- you can break it down to several parts. You have the actual tip of the bullet. That`s the projectile which extends down, if you can come in there. There`s a little line, somewhat slightly down to the top of the casing. That will have rifling marks that is unique to the weapon that fired them.

Also, the casing itself, this will be ejected from a semi-automatic pistol. The extractor will leave marks, and the injector will leave marks. In addition, the back end of -- the primer itself will be struck by the firing pin. That will be marked. What you look for in a weapon, you see this is the barrel. The barrel inside it -- you probably won`t be able to see it like this. I could break it down for you, if you like. There are lands and grooves in that barrel that are unique to each weapon; that will leave basically a fingerprint on the slug itself.

GRACE: In other words, when the bullet goes down this barrel, this barrel unique from every other weapon, like a fingerprint, because, as the metal dries from forming the gun, it dries in a certain way...

KATZ: That`s exactly right.

GRACE: ... leaving marks on the inside. So when the bullet is hurled down out of here forcefully, it marks this bullet like no other gun.

KATZ: Correct.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): To give you an idea of just how intense this investigation is, investigators actually got each and every garbage can for the entire length of the turnpike and they`re going through all that trash, as well as videotapes from each toll plaza. Detectives believe that the killer was in the car with the victims, pulled over, killed them, and then took off. And now we`re learning that the car was likely the victim`s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, that car has been found, but where is the perpetrator? He is still on the loose.

Joining us, Dr. Daniel Spitz, forensic pathologist. Dr. Spitz, a lot of questions regarding this case. There were multiple gunshot wounds, multiple victims. How is that handled at the morgue?

DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, the first thing you`d want to do is to try and collect any evidence from the body surface. Certainly, the area immediately around the bodies at the scene is very important.

Once you`re comfortable that you`ve obtained all the evidence you can get from the body surface and from the clothing, then you begin to look at the bodies externally, identify entrance wounds, identify exit wounds, count the number of wounds.

You want to look at the entrance wounds to see if you can determine the range of fire, meaning is it a contact-range shot, which would be very consistent with the execution-style killing that has been mentioned by your other guests? You can tell if it`s a close-range shot or more of an intermediate range shot. And then, to follow the trajectory through the body, so that you know exactly how the bullet traversed the body, all that evidence will allow to you try and help piece together exactly what happened at that crime scene.

GRACE: And, of course, there`s not going to be a real way for police to determine, Doctor, which victim died first. Let`s go out to the lawyers, to Steve Greenberg and Jason Oshins. You know, you`ve got four homicide victims. Most likely all of the victims died from the same gun, same perpetrator. He`s still on the loose. Florida is a death penalty state.

So where do you go from here, Jason Oshins?

OSHINS: Well, obviously, I`m looking from the perspective of: What was this victim involved in beforehand? What did he do in his life that caused this execution-style hit? He relocates from Brownsville, Texas. Job, what was the purpose for his family? What was he involved in, his life, his material contacts, to see if there`s any evidence?

GRACE: OK, so you`re beating the blame-the-victim drum.

OSHINS: Well, I`m not necessarily blaming the victim, but that`s...

GRACE: Then why do you care why he moved from Brownsville, Texas?

OSHINS: Well, that`s the focus question to see if -- who would have been associated with him here in Florida where he had no connection, he had no family. It was all back in Texas. That`s where I`d be looking at for connectivity to his murder.

GRACE: OK. And what about it, Steve Greenberg? Agree or disagree?

GREENBERG: I agree. This is obviously a hit. This person is probably long gone at the airport. They should be looking at passenger lists and so forth to see if they can hunt this person down.

This guy moved from Brownsville, Texas, to Florida where he didn`t know anyone. He`s got all the ear-markings of someone who`s involved in some sort of illicit activity.

GRACE: Are you talking about the victim?

GREENBERG: No job, he`s standing out on the front lawn -- I am talking about the victim. And there`s some connection to that...

GRACE: You know, wait, wait, wait, wait.

GREENBERG: ... that unfortunately drew his family into it.

GRACE: Maybe I`m crazy.

GREENBERG: And his family is victims.

GRACE: But shouldn`t we be trying to find out who killed the four people as opposed to why this guy moved from Brownsville?

OSHINS: That`s how we`re going to do it, Nancy.

GREENBERG: That`s right.

OSHINS: That`s how we`re going to do it.

GREENBERG: We`ll find out who killed him by finding out what he`s involved in.

OSHINS: Absolutely.

GREENBERG: What brought this person to his house?

GRACE: OK. To Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent, the Jeep that was found just hours ago, why is that Jeep so important? Are you thinking fingerprints, Susan?

CANDIOTTI: Well, they`re sure looking for them. They`re looking for fingerprints; they`re looking for any other DNA that might be in the car that might possibly be connected to the killer, hair, clothing fibers, fingerprints, you name it.

GRACE: Susan, Susan, you`re way off-mark. Didn`t you hear the defense attorneys, Susan? I`m really surprised at you. They don`t want to know who killed the four people. They want to find out why the victims moved from Texas. Have you gotten to the bottom of that one, Susan?

CANDIOTTI: Well, I can tell you this. Tonight, there are a couple of detectives from Florida, from the St. Lucy County (ph) sheriff`s office, are expected to arrive in Brownsville, Texas, to work with the authorities there, to start backtracking, to see what he did for a living, that is to say Mr. Escobedo. They are telling me, the police say, that they are also working that aspect of it.

What did he do for a living there? They say "odd jobs." Relatives tell police they don`t know precisely what made the family move to Florida, but they did. It was a common law marriage. The mother was the apparent breadwinner in the family, worked at a department store in Texas, moved to Florida. She worked at a hospital in Florida.

In Florida, the father, Mr. Escobedo, was said to restore cars and resell them, possibly back in Texas. So they appear to be looking at every different angle.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, the president and founder of Beyond Missing, Mark, I`ll give you this on a silver platter. It sounds like the father may have been unemployed. I don`t know his business; I don`t know his wife`s business. But we`ve also got a 3- and 4-year-old child involved here. And somehow I don`t think they`re wrapped up in any critical activity, Marc Klaas.

KLAAS: Well, of course they`re not wrapped up in any criminal activity. And despite what everybody`s saying here, I would look at more than one potential perpetrator in this. It seems to me that it would be very, very difficult for one individual to keep control of four people in a moving vehicle over a period of several hours.

GRACE: But think about it, Marc. Let`s throw this one out to David Katz. David, think about it. What if all four of them, plus the perp, are in the car? They may not have even known what was coming.

KATZ: Yes, if they knew the perpetrator and they were comfortable in his presence, certainly with one weapon, he can order a whole family out, get them lying down or kneeling, and control them. You would know very, very quickly, based upon the angles of the gunshot wounds, you would be able to tell whether there were...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: If they were shot from behind. What about it, Steve Rogers, agree or disagree?

ROGERS: This is an individual who no doubt could have possibly known the victims and this suspect, made them comfortable, and then executed them.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Who`s our caller, Liz? Peggy, New York. Hi, Peggy.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy, I love your show. Really quickly: Do these two children belong to the -- in this current marriage or is it possible that the children knew who this person was and that`s why they were killed?

GRACE: Good question. Susan, do you know the answer to that one?

CANDIOTTI: Yes, the two children are the children of this couple.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We continue to follow leads in this investigation, and we are reviewing evidence from both the crime scene, as well as the victims` homes last night. We continue to have our tips line activated, and it continues to be manned 24 hours a day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A family of four lost their lives on a Florida turnpike, including a 3- and 4-year-old little boy. Here on the set with me, firearms instructor with the DEA, David Katz.

You know, I think the answer is going to be twofold. Number one, fingerprints found in that car, that vehicle found just hours ago. And, two, can I have the -- yes, thank you.

KATZ: A pleasure.

GRACE: Right along here is where the bullet passes. And when the bullet passes through this chamber, it is -- yes, it is marked indelibly, indelibly by the permanent markings inside the chamber. If this guy still has the weapon -- and you know he does -- this is the guy that still has the weapon, it`s going to be matched up to him, likely not registered though.

KATZ: Well, if they catch him with the weapon, all you have to do is fire another round through or several rounds into it into a tank. You take the slug out, and they do a comparison of the other guy.

GRACE: But on the other hand, out to Steve Rogers, it would be so easy just to throw out the inner workings of the gun, the block (ph).

ROGERS: Well, absolutely. He may have dumped that gun. And I have to tell you, Nancy, one key piece of evidence may be in Brownsville, Texas, because there are reports from neighbors and friends of theirs that this individual may have been involved with drugs and that he left Brownsville to Florida to get away from the drug world.

Now, if he did have anything to do with the cartel in Mexico -- and you and I know what`s south of Brownsville -- this may be a real, real tough case to solve. And that weapon may be long gone.

GRACE: Which also says to me the perp may very well have a drug record of his own, either in Texas or Florida.

ROGERS: You bet.

GRACE: We`ll stay on the story.

But tonight, we stop to remember Army Lieutenant Emily J.T. Perez, 23, Fort Washington, Maryland. An honor student, Perez the first minority female command sergeant in West Point history. She was a bone marrow donor and started a program for AIDS victims, leaving behind a grieving family. Emily J.T. Perez, American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests, but especially to you for being with us, and a special good night to my brother, happy birthday. Here is Mack with his wife, Jan, here in New York visiting the show.

NANCY GRACE signing off for tonight. Happy birthday, Mackie. See you all here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END