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The Situation Room
Iraqi Death Toll Reaches New Milestone; U.S. Validates North Korean Nuclear Claims
Aired October 16, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you today's top stories.
Happening now, it's midnight in Iraq, where the death toll soars for Iraqis and Americans alike, reaching a new milestone for coalition military forces.
Are insurgents offering a way out?
We have exclusive video of an extraordinary message.
It's 6:00 a.m. in what the U.S. confirms is a nuclear North Korea. As U.N. sanctions get underway, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urges the North's neighbors to stand firm and warns another nuclear wannabe should pay very close attention.
And Hillary Rodham Clinton versus John McCain -- senators in a showdown. Could this be a preview of 2008?
It's already getting personal and nasty.
I'm Wolf Blitzer.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We begin with a grim new milestone in Iraq today. The death toll for coalition forces in Iraq passed 3,000, as the U.S. military announced the combat deaths of five American soldiers and two Marines.
Meantime, no letup in the slaughter among the Iraqis. Dozens more deaths were reported today in Baghdad alone. President Bush today assured Iraq's prime minister that the United States will stay the course. But our latest poll shows only a third of Americans now favor the U.S. war in Iraq. Sixty-four percent oppose the war. That's the highest number of opposition in that CNN polling so far, since the war started three and-a-half years ago.
And this comes as a key Iraqi insurgent group voices its willingness now to talk with U.S. forces. That offer in a videotape provided exclusively to CNN.
Standing by in Baghdad, CNN's Michael Ware.
But let's turn to our senior political correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, first, for a complete update on what is going on -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, all the talk in Washington about overhauling the U.S. strategy in Iraq is sending jitters through Iraq's fledgling government.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): With the alarming rise in the rate of U.S. casualties in Iraq, 55 dead so far this month and almost three times that many Americans seriously wounded. And with Iraqi casualties running even higher, the calls for change are getting louder from President Bush's own party.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: We clearly need a new strategy. Obviously, by any measurement, we're in a lot of trouble in Iraq.
MCINTYRE: The White House says President Bush called Iraq's prime minister, Nouri Al-Maliki, who was troubled by rumors the U.S. might be losing patience with him and could impose a time line for bringing the violence under control.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The prime minister also wanted to make it clear, for instance, that -- that -- that talk of, you know, giving timetables or expiration dates or whatever to the government were not only undermining the government, but also "inspiring terrorists," is the term he used.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
MCINTYRE: The White House says President Bush reassured Nouri Al-Maliki that he enjoys the full support of the United States government and that there are no timeliness for the withdrawal of U.S. troops.
In return, Al-Maliki is said to have reassured President Bush that he is opposed to the idea of partition. Rumors about that, he said, were also undermining confidence in the government -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Jamie, thanks very much.
Dozens of people died in bombings and shootings today in Iraq and police found at least 26 more bullet riddled bodies in the capital alone.
But are Iraqi insurgents now offering to talk with the United States?
CNN's Michael Ware is joining us now live from Baghdad.
He's got some -- an exclusive report -- Michael, you've been in correspondence, shall we say, with a leader of these Iraqi Sunni insurgents and he responded in an extraordinary way.
Tell our viewers what has happened. MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the Islamic Army of Iraq is part of the -- one of the largest and most powerful factions within the Sunni insurgency. These are the people who are responsible for the bulk of the day to day attacks against U.S. forces, from roadside bombs to deadly sniper attacks to all manner of ambush and roadside bombings.
These people offered us an opportunity to forward questions to their leadership, which we did in writing.
They responded to those questions in videotaped answers, putting forward their official spokesman, Ibrahim al-Shimmari, to answer and respond to CNN.
And what he outlines is fascinating. He renews the insurgency's long-running offer to negotiate with U.S. forces. We've seen covert negotiations underway since the beginning of last year. We've seen U.S. officials go public with them at the end of last year.
It's interesting that now they're renewing that offer so publicly, so directly -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael, are these the same insurgents who were responsible for blowing up the Samarra mosque earlier in the year, which has caused, at least in part, this escalation, this explosion of violence?
WARE: No, Wolf, this is not believed to be that group. That group is believed to be Al Qaeda in Iraq or one of its affiliates.
This group represents a large bloc of homegrown Iraqi insurgents. The Iraqis insurgency falls into two big camps, Wolf. One are the nationalists and former Baathists. The other are Iraqi Islamists, more moderate than al Qaeda and more politically motivated and focused solely on Iraq, as this spokesman from the Islamic Army makes very clearly. He goes out of his way to assure the people of Iraq that we are no threat to U.S. homeland security. We just want to free our country.
So that's markedly different from the people who blew up the Golden Dome in February, which essentially was al Qaeda -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And that was an attack on the Shia.
Michael, what about the tortured bodies that are popping up over Baghdad and other Iraqi cities?
Horrible, horrible gruesome details are being told. The bodies are found. Clearly, these people were first tortured. They used electric drills to torture these people. Various parts of their body were severed.
Which group is believed to be responsible for the mutilation, the torture, the random assaults, as you will, on these Shia?
WARE: Well, that's occurring on both sides, Wolf. Now, as was explained to me recently by one Shia here in Baghdad, the Sunnis, led by Zarqawi and the extremist al Qaeda fringe of the Sunni insurgency, the hard line Islamists, have provoked this civil war or this sectarian violence. They went out targeting the Shia in a particularly provocative way -- suicide car bombs into marketplaces and places of worship and the beheading of Shia.
So the Shia have responded in kind. And now that they have entered the ranks of the government, it's the security forces who are operating or assisting many of these death squads.
Now, it's the Shia who are using the drills and who are doing the torturing. The Shia here in Baghdad explain that as the Sunnis attack us with mutilated beheadings. We must respond in kind and send a strong message back -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael, stand by for a moment.
Jamie McIntyre is still at the Pentagon for us -- Jamie, what's the likely response that the U.S. military or the political leadership would give to these Iraqi Sunni insurgents, who are now effectively reaching out in this dramatic video that Michael has, asking for direct negotiations, if you will?
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, Wolf, it's a tricky situation.
On the one hand the U.S. has a clear policy. It does not negotiate with terrorists. On the other hand, the U.S. has a clear policy that it needs to bring the Sunni factions into the government and give them a reason to believe that they have a future.
So, while they don't negotiate with terrorists, there have been -- there's been a lot of contact over the years between the U.S. military and the insurgents, as Michael Ware notes -- he's reported on this last year.
But one big thing has changed now with the elected Iraqi government, that the U.S. military believes that any negotiation with, perhaps not the insurgents who have blood on their hands, but others, to try to end this fighting, has got to be something that's done by the Iraqi government, not the U.S. military. And as part of that, then the U.S. military would be able to withdraw as the violence goes down.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre and Michael Ware, thanks to both of you.
And we're going to have a lot more on this story coming up in the 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence today made it official -- air samples gathered after that North Korean test blast contained radioactive materials. It was a small nuclear explosion, but it was nuclear.
As the United Nations sanctions kick in, the Bush administration now setting out to try to rally its allies.
For some more, let's turn to our White House correspondent, Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, now that North Korea is officially a nuclear power, the stakes got that much higher for the Bush administration. You may recall, of course, the vague, broad language in the U.N. Security Council resolution that, of course, was designed to get the unanimous support of U.N. members, that, of course, being a part of the solution to this crisis. But now it may also be a part of the problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): With confirmation that North Korea did, indeed, conduct a nuclear test and is possibly ready to carry out another, a measured warning from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: It goes to say that that would further deepen the isolation of North Korea and I hope they would not take such a provocative act.
MALVEAUX: On the eve of Rice's trip to Northeast Asia, the Bush administration faces a critical test -- whether it can convince members of the U.N. Security Council, which approved tough sanctions against North Korea, to follow through.
China is already balking at interdicting cargo entering or leaving North Korea for fear that it will escalate tensions.
WANG GUANGYA, CHINESE AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Inspections, yes. But inspection is different from interception and interdiction. Acting in that area, in that different countries would do it in different ways.
MALVEAUX: Rice tried to downplay those differences, as well as suggestions that China and others may be getting cold feet.
RICE: I am not concerned that the Chinese are going to turn their backs on their obligations. I don't think they would have voted for a resolution that they did not intend to carry through on.
MALVEAUX: But carrying through may be tough for some allies, who each have their own interests at stake. China, which shares an 880- mile border with North Korea, insisted that as part of the U.N. resolution, any inspections of North Korean cargo would be voluntary for each state. South Korea also fears an embargo could lead to a military confrontation with its northern neighbor.
RICE: We have no desire to ratchet up conflict either, but we'll have some discussions on precisely how this will be carried out.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
MALVEAUX: And, Wolf, of course, that really is the challenge the Bush administration and Secretary Rice have is really how those sanctions are going to be carried out. And the larger issue, the big question still remains unanswered, that is whether or not these tough sanctions are really going to be enough to bring North Korea back to the negotiating table -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.
Thanks, Suzanne, very much.
Jack Cafferty is busy today preparing for a special that airs Thursday night.
He'll be back in THE SITUATION ROOM tomorrow.
Up ahead, the FBI conducts multiple raids, part of an unfolding investigation into a Pennsylvania congressman.
Did he improperly help his daughter land lucrative contracts?
We'll get the latest live from Capitol Hill.
Also, the former attorney general of the United States, John Ashcroft. He joins us live here in THE SITUATION ROOM this hour to talk about the war on terror, the Bush administration's ties with Christian conservatives and more.
Plus, trouble in paradise -- residents of Hawaii assessing the damage from a powerful earthquake. We're going to go live to Hawaii to give you the latest.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Another congressman is under scrutiny this afternoon. The Pennsylvania Republican, Curt Weldon. Federal agents searched six locations a part of an unfolding investigation that Weldon says is politically motivated.
Our Congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, is joining us from Capitol Hill with the latest -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we actually heard from the congressman himself just a few moments ago. He was speaking to reporters in his home district, just outside of Philadelphia. And this all surrounds an investigation that sources familiar with this investigation confirm to us is underway by the Justice Department, essentially looking into whether or not Congressman Curt Weldon helped secure some lucrative contracts for his daughter, who was a lobbyist.
Now, the congressman had, up until this point, essentially said that he knew nothing about this federal probe and even today, even after his daughter's home apparently was raided as -- in addition to five other spots through this probe -- he came out and talked to reporters and still said he personally doesn't have any indication about this investigation, but insisted he didn't do anything wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CURT WELDON (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I would absolutely never use my position to help anyone in an unusual way. And my daughter would be -- my kids don't need my help. My kids are successful, they're talented. They do a good job. And that's always -- I mean that's what any father would say and that's what I would say. You know, my daughter doesn't need my help now. She never has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: You saw Congressman Weldon in that press conference rather calm in his demeanor, but still making the case as his aides, and even as his attorney has to us over the past couple of days, that they do think that this was politically motivated, in part, Congressman Weldon talking about the fact that a liberal leaning watchdog group with the acronym CREW, that at the head of that, a woman by the name of Melanie Sloan, that she is somebody -- and some of her members on the board are people who are supporters of his Democratic opponent.
Curt Weldon is in and already has been in a very, very tight reelection campaign. He's been a Republican in Congress for 20 years and has never had a race like this. So he is indicating that that group is trying to target him and also noted that the Democratic national -- the Democratic Campaign Committee, rather -- actually released a flier, sent a flier in the mail on Wednesday, two days before this federal probe became public, talking about this investigation.
The reason is, Wolf, this has been out there. This question has been out there for two-and-a-half years. The "Los Angeles Times" first wrote a lengthy story about whether or not the congressman did try to help his daughter, who is a lobbyist.
And the congressman said today that he went to the House Ethics Committee with hundreds of pages of documents to prove that he did nothing wrong. And he, in this press conference today, insists that he will do the same thing with the Justice Department.
He did, however, Wolf, admit that this was going to hurt him in his campaign, which, as I mentioned, was already an uphill climb for somebody who hasn't had a tough race, really, in about 20 years -- Wolf.
BLITZER: But, Dana, you can say that the liberal news media might be out with political motivations or this organization, even though they say they alerted the Justice Department about it two-and- a-half years ago. But this is a Justice Department that's run-by the Republicans. They're in charge of the Justice Department. The attorney general, Alberto Gonzalez is the attorney general of the Justice Department, the deputy attorney general, they decided to raid the daughter's home and offices and associates three weeks before an election.
This wasn't a decision made by the media or by some other watchdog group. This was a decision made by the Republican-led Justice Department.
BASH: That's exactly right. And a reporter on the scene there in Pennsylvania brought that up with Curt Weldon and he said, I think his quote was something on the lines of yes, I know. I'm not stupid. I understand that. And obviously we know from our sources that he and others can make the allegation that this could be politically motivated, at least the initial inquiry or at least the request for it could have been potentially politically motivated.
But when it comes down to it, law enforcement sources make it very clear that when they decide to go forward in an investigation, it's based on not politics, but based on potential evidence that they think that they might have to go forward in the investigation -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And the sources at the Justice Department say they did it today because they were afraid some of that evidence could be tampered with unless they moved very quickly.
BASH: Exactly.
BLITZER: Dana, thank you very much for updating our viewers on that.
The Senate minority leader, by the way, Harry Reid, is amending his report to the Ethics Committee on a controversial land deal that earned him more than a million dollars. Reid did initially report it, but he's now facing new questions. He says he wants to account for the deal more fully. He also now says he failed to report two smaller land deals because of what he calls clerical errors.
As we head into the crucial mid-term elections, stay up to date with the CNN Political Ticker. The daily news service on cnn.com gives you an inside view of the day's political stories. See for yourself. Go to cnn.com/ticker.
Coming up, we'll take you live to Hawaii for the latest on the damage from that powerful earthquake that rocked the islands, causing widespread damage.
Plus, the war of words between Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain -- is it a taste of things to come in the next race for the White House?
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Zain Verjee is getting ready to travel with the secretary of state to China, to Korea, to Russia. She's off today. She'll be reporting from the scene with the Secretary throughout this week.
Carol Costello is joining us now with a closer look at some other stories making news -- Carol, good to have you here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Wolf. Here's what's happening.
Here in New York, civil rights Attorney Lynne Stewart has been sentenced to 28 months in prison for helping terrorists and lying to the U.S. government. Stewart once represented blind Egyptian Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, who was accused of plotting to blow up five New York landmarks and to kill the president of Egypt. In February, a jury found her and two others guilty of helping Rahman deliver messages to terrorists. That violated a ban on communication between Rahman and the outside world.
Eight -- count them -- eight rounds of voting, but still no winner in the battle for a seat on the United Nations Security Council. Venezuela came in second despite a high profile anti-U.S. campaign by President Hugo Chavez. U.S.-backed Guatemala got the most votes, but not the necessary two thirds majority. Other countries are also in the race, which now appears most likely to go to a compromise candidate.
Another assassination marring the trial of Saddam Hussein. Gunmen have killed the brother of the chief prosecutor in the case. That comes as Saddam Hussein releases an open letter calling for an end to sectarian killings and saying: "The hour of liberation is at hand," indicating his apparent belief that insurgents are driving U.S. forces out of Iraq.
That's a look at the headlines this afternoon -- back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Carol, thank you very much.
Carol is going to be coming back shortly here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Today, residents of Hawaii are seeing just how bad things really are. They're assessing the damage one day after an earthquake and aftershocks shook the islands.
CNN's Chris Lawrence is joining us now live from Hawaii with more -- first of all, Chris, where are you?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we're just north of Kona on like -- kind of like the northeast corner, or the northwest, I should say, corner of the island. Behind me, there's a bridge down the street that was literally crumbling underneath it. They've closed off this area. Out on the road, we've seen big boulders literally falling down the mountain that the crews have had to go by, punch down the smaller rocks and then haul off the road.
We visited a school that had suffered some pretty significant damage and won't reopen until later this week and a home that was literally burned to the ground. The actual shocking didn't damage it, but the snapped power lines set off an electrical fire, started a fire and burned the home to the ground.
But overall, there were no major in just, no fatalities. And with a 6.7 magnitude earthquake and several aftershocks, most people here feel that the Big Island could have come out of this a whole lot worse.
BLITZER: It could have been with lot worse, indeed.
Chris Lawrence reporting for us from Hawaii.
Thank you very much.
Witness accounts, video and images of the 6.7 magnitude earthquake are pouring into CNN.
Standing by with the latest, our Internet reporter, Abbi Tatton -- Abbi.
ABBI TATTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this video came into CNN through I-Report. This is from Hein Tran, a scientist on Big Island. This was him reporting the damage to his home immediately after yesterday's quake, when he realizes -- look at that -- that it wasn't over. He recorded one of the aftershocks, the most significant, seven minutes after the earthquake. That measuring a 6.0 magnitude.
And we're getting many, many other videos and images coming into CNN. This from Erin Baldwin (ph). Irreparable damage to a historic church on Big Island. And this also from a vice principal near to the epicenter at Waikoloa Elementary School, recording the damage there. Ruth Smith tells us that that school was probably closed for cleanup and repair -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Abbi, thanks very much.
Dramatic, dramatic pictures coming in from Hawaii.
Coming up, making up after a fight -- Senator Hillary Clinton recently exchanged some words with John McCain over North Korea. Now, the senator -- Senator Clinton, that is -- distancing herself from some controversial comments one of her aides reportedly made about the Arizona Republican.
And never again -- that's the position and the book title from the former attorney general of the United States, John Ashcroft. Ashcroft talks about the war on terror and some of its controversial tough tactics. He's standing by to join us later, in a few minutes.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: You're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Happening now, no deadlines. President Bush assures the Iraqi prime minister, Nouri Al-Maliki, the U.S. has not set any conditions that the Iraqi government either control the violence or risk losing American support for Al-Maliki's leadership. The White House press secretary, Tony Snow, says the two leaders spoke during a phone call earlier today.
Also, are two potential presidential candidates trying to make up? Democratic Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and Republican Senator John McCain. There's fallout after an aide to Clinton reportedly made some very controversial comments about Senator McCain's time in Vietnam.
And vying for a seat at the table. Venezuela now lags far behind Guatemala in an eighth round of voting. Both nations vying for a Latin American seat on the United Nations Security Council. I'm Wolf Blitzer, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
This story just coming into CNN right now, let's check back with Carol Costello for details. Carol, what are we picking up?
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah Wolf, we're just getting word out of New Orleans. Two freight ships have collided right near New Orleans. One is apparently taking on water. We understand no injuries are reported, but this collision between the 712-foot Panamanian flagged Zagora and the 737-foot Greek flagged Torm Anholt. It happened in the area of the river called candor bend. This is all according to the "Associated Press." Again, two freight ships have collided on the Mississippi River near New Orleans. When we have more information of course we'll pass it along. Back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much Carol for that. We'll watch this story for our viewers.
Meanwhile, the Bush administration has its hands full today juggling world crises. The president phones Iraq's leader offering reassurance, even as the death toll for coalition forces reaches a milestone.
And Condoleezza Rice tries to rally U.S. allies after North Korea's nuclear test even as she warns Iran about its own nuclear ambitions. Joining us now a key member of CNN Security Council, our world affairs analyst, the former defense secretary William Cohen. He is chairman and CEO of the Cohen Group here in Washington. Mr. Secretary, thanks very much for coming in. A lot is riding right now on these sanctions on North Korea, specifically whether China is really going to get tough because when all is said and done, they really have the most leverage on North Korea. You know China, you know this issue really well. Is China going to live up to what the U.S. hopes?
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, they're starting to show they're prepared to live up to it. I think we have to go back to the old expression, watch what we do and not what we say, even though publicly they've said we're not going to really inspect. We may open the doors, but not go in and actually open up the cargo itself, but they're taking some measures now. I think that's a signal to the North Koreans that perhaps they better start moderating their position. In addition, Australia has closed its ports to North Korean ships. Japan, the cabinet has voted to close its ports to North Korean ships. So you can see that the sanctions, if they go imposed and are imposed by the Chinese, will really start to bite in terms of the North Koreans. And then raises the question, what do we do at that point? There's some pressure to have direct bilateral negotiations. I think once the United States can be seen as operating from a position of strength, then perhaps we can sit down with the North Koreans at that point.
BLITZER: Clearly, what the North Koreans would like to do is defy China and, let's say, Russia, and maybe even to a certain degree South Korea from the United States.
COHEN: That has been their policy all along, and one of the real dangers of saying let's just have bilateral negotiations is we won't be on the same page as far as the South Koreans, the Japanese, and others are concerned. So, we might find ourselves in one of these dangling conversations, never being able to reach a conclusion with them and have the North Koreans then try to continue to divide the other parties to the six-party talks.
BLITZER: The 3,000 U.S. and coalition forces deaths now in Iraq, a new milestone, more than 2,750 U.S. forces. But it looks increasingly like the situation is totally deteriorating. Today the president had to reassure the prime minister of Iraq Nouri Al Maliki, the United States wasn't just giving him two or three months as some rumors were suggesting. I think what Al Maliki was probably referring to are some of the statements that Senator John Warner, for example, made returning from Iraq the other day. Saying the Iraqis have two or three months to get their act together, this government of Nouri Al Maliki. The question is can they get their act together?
COHEN: Well, that is the question, and, as a matter of fact, it's not only Senator Warner raising these issues. We have the British also raising these issues as far as the generals on the ground are concerned. I think the exit strategy is really in the form of Jim Baker and the commission that he has been heading up with Lee Hamilton. And I think that really is going to be the so-called exit strategy. They're going to wait until the election is over. Some of the details are starting to leak out as we speak, but nonetheless, I think that that report will come back. It will give the president an opportunity to then shift into whatever gear he has to shift into, but maintain the status quo is not going to be acceptable, no matter what reassurances are given today. It cannot be sustained as is, and I think that that's what the Baker Commission is going to recommend.
BLITZER: And this notion that Michael Ware was reporting early about the U.S. establishing a dialogue, if you will, with at least some Iraqi Sunni insurgent groups. Good idea or bad idea?
COHEN: Well you and I had this conversation on several occasions. It was going to be the Sunnis after initiating the insurgency and really waging this war against the United States and coalition forces. By this time they were going to come to see that perhaps the United States was not going to stay there for the long haul. We have been arming and training the Shia majority who is now backed in part, at least, by the Iranians and therefore they may see this as being in their interest to finally come to grips with the fact that we might be leaving them to fend on their own against an Iraqi Shia that may be much more vindictive and punitive than anything we've seen to date. So, maybe that's a sign that they're willing to now start talking about ways in which they can become integrated into the political system, and hopefully that will provide a basis for all of us to say that this is starting to work finally. BLITZER: Secretary Cohen, thanks very much for coming in.
COHEN: Pleasure to be here.
BLITZER: And still to come, terror, tactics, and the search for Osama bin Laden. I'll discuss those topics and more with the former attorney general of the United States, John Ashcroft. He is out with a brand new book entitled "Never Again." And in future elections, might you one day be able to cast your vote via the Internet or even your cell phone? Miles O'Brien standing by with a look into the future. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. He took a hard line in fighting terror, and he claimed to take the high road in bringing conservative values to the U.S. Justice Department. But the high court has now overturned some of his tough tactics, and now some Christian conservatives are supposedly rethinking their political stance. Joining us now, the former attorney general of the United States, John Ashcroft. His new book is entitled "Never Again, Securing America and Restoring Justice." Thanks very much for coming in.
JOHN ASHCROFT, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: Delighted, Wolf. Thank you.
BLITZER: I want to just get to this issue because you talk about it in the book that after 9/11, never again, that's basically the theme. Osama bin Laden, though, is still at large. That must make you crazy.
ASHCROFT: Well, I maybe was crazy to begin with, but I believe that we have done a great deal to disable and displace and to divert terrorism. The U.S. has been free from an attack for the last five years and I think that's important. And a great deal of al Qaeda has been killed or captured. Not to my knowledge, Osama bin Laden.
BLITZER: Or his number two, Ayman al Zawahiri.
ASHCROFT: But it's my understanding, I think KSM, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the plot on the United States, and the one with real awareness of the American culture for plotting here has been apprehended.
BLITZER: So, arguably, might he have been even more important than Osama bin Laden or Ayman al Zawahiri?
ASHCROFT: When he was captured, I rejoiced greatly, and someone asked me if I would rather have captured him than Osama bin Laden. I don't think I could honestly have said so then, and I don't know that I could say so now, but he was a very significant individual. Had his college education in the United States and understood this culture and organized and orchestrated, directed the way in which things would happen here and could happen successfully. I don't think individuals who haven't lived here don't have that understanding or are quite that threatening in terms of operational capacity as he was. BLITZER: Let's read a little bit from the book "Never Again," page 259. "For some people not even the grotesque images that filled our television screens after al Qaeda's blatant attacks on 9/11 seem enough to wake them out of their utopia feel-good world. I've heard the impassioned amorphous rhetoric about infringing on the civil liberties of potential terrorists, but the tactics themselves were right." The tactics that you authorized as the attorney general of the United States, but several of those tactics have now been rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court.
ASHCROFT: I would like for you to name those.
BLITZER: Well the whole issue of torture, for example.
ASHCROFT: Well, that's not --
BLITZER: Under the Geneva Conventions and what's called common article --
ASHCROFT: I don't think that -- I don't think there's been any ruling by the court regarding torture, and I don't think -- you know, the --
BLITZER: They said that common article should apply to these detainees who are being held by the United States, which is something that you had originally rejected.
ASHCROFT: That's correct. Common article three had long been understood to be something that applied to civil wars and civil disputes, and the Geneva Conventions themselves indicate that the enforcing authority should be nation states who are members, not individuals who are prosecuted for other kinds of crime or in other circumstances, like the Hamdan case. So that was a setback. It was where the Justice Department agreed with the inferior court, the court of appeals, but the Supreme Court in a split decision said that the Geneva Conventions applied.
BLITZER: What about the notion that the detainees held at the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, that they should be allowed to have legal representation and should, basically, be able to have their day in court?
ASHCROFT: Well, if you were to in every case litigate and adjudicate whether a person was properly taken as a prisoner in a conflict, you could paralyze the war operation. In the second world war, for example, we have million that we detained.
BLITZER: Because you had signed off on the original decision that they could simply be held in limbo without any ability to speak to lawyers or to go before a judge?
ASHCROFT: You know, the court in the Hamdan case, the most recent case, said --
BLITZER: That's the Supreme Court decision I'm referring to. ASHCROFT: Yes, the Supreme Court. Said that they weren't questioning the right of the United States to hold combatants until the end of the conflict. It was whether or not they could be tried in a military commission, and they went to the uniform code of military justice, which has certain requirements that they read as being requirements for a military commission and required that the congress do that. But they explicitly said that they weren't questioning in that case the right of a nation state that apprehends someone on the field of battle to detain that person.
BLITZER: But they were questioning your decision that they couldn't have any legal rights, basically?
ASHCROFT: I suppose that -- that was really the previous case handled that. We had thought that housing someone outside the United States, as was the case in the Heisenfeger decision, that they didn't have rights to habeas corpus.
BLITZER: But they ruled that this was effectively U.S. territory.
ASHCROFT: They ruled, then Guantanamo gets included.
BLITZER: I want to move on to talk a little bit about David Kuo and his new book. He is a former deputy director of the faith-based initiative at the White House. He was here in THE SITUATION ROOM, and basically he was suggesting that the current leadership in the White House from the president on down were not really being sincere in reaching out to Christian conservatives, that they were simply being used, in effect, for votes and for fund-raising as opposed to a sincere admiration for what they're up to. You used to work -- he used to work for you, David Kuo, you know this young man.
ASHCROFT: I do know him, and I was the author of the charitable choice provisions that are in our law that remove the discrimination against faith-based groups in terms of providing services. We wanted a level playing field so that if a social organization wanted to supply some need under contract to the state, church-related organizations could be on an equal footing to do that. We were able to achieve that. In my judgment those things have been done. They have provided that kind of equal footing, and we've seen some very good results in outcomes, for instance in prisons and other institutions like that.
BLITZER: But is David Kuo a sincere, honest guy who is committed, or is he just simply fabricating, making up these suggestions?
ASHCROFT: You know, I enjoyed my opportunity to work with David, but I have no ability to say that what he said happened in the White House that disrespected individuals is true. My experience, both in working with him when he was in the White House and when he worked in my Senate office, when I was the author of "The Charitable Choice Provisions," my experience was that we were accorded the kind of respect that allowed the program to go forward and allowed it to become productive. And achieved what the program was intended, and that's the kind of thing that David said when he resigned from the office at the White House, so this most current set of remarks really relates to how he felt people felt, not how he felt what people did apparently because it's conceded that the charitable choice provisions have been implemented and they're working.
BLITZER: John Ashcroft is the former attorney general of the United States. His new book is entitled "Never Again, Securing America and Restoring Justice." Attorney general, thanks very much for coming in.
ASHCROFT: My pleasure, Wolf.
BLITZER: Still ahead, Hillary Clinton versus John McCain. Senators in a showdown. Could this be a preview of 2008? It's already getting a little bit nasty. We're casting your ballot by cell phone? How technology could soon change the way all of us vote. Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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BLITZER: Welcome back. The elections still more than two years ago. Neither has officially declared their candidacy, but that's not stopping the barbs from flying between two of the best known likely presidential contenders in 2008. That would be Senators Hillary Clinton and John McCain. Once again, let's go to CNN's Carol Costello, she's joining us live with more on this story. Carol?
COSTELLO: Yes, it seems like 2008 is just around the corner. You can't officially say the games have begun. John McCain versus Hillary Clinton, and guess who won the first round.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D) NEW YORK: Because of the failed policies of the Bush administration, and --
COSTELLO: It started out fairly typical. Hillary Clinton blaming President Bush for North Korea's nukes. John McCain then blaming Bill Clinton. Then it just got ugly. Putting senator Clinton on the defensive.
CLINTON: I have already responded to that, and we certainly have denounced that. It was offensive, and, you know, John McCain and I have a good working relationship, and we will continue to work together whenever we can.
COSTELLO: That is called distancing yourself from a comment made by one of Clinton's aides. A comment that seemed to make light of McCain's torture when he was held captive in North Vietnam. It appeared in Maureen Dowd's column in Saturday's "New York Times." A Clinton aid quoted as saying McCain's accusations came at the bidding of the White House and looked similar to the way he did on those captive tapes from Hanoi where he recited the names of his crewmates. Wrong move.
LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: It was a very foolish comment by the Clinton aide because it actually hit McCain where he is strongest. You never want to hit someone where they're strongest. You want to hit them where they're weakest.
COSTELLO: It was so foolish Hillary Clinton got on the phone and called John McCain to say she's sorry. The McCain camp tells us they're pleased Senator Clinton called to apologize. At the same time, they called the gaff reprehensible, but that's not all. Alluding to Bill Clinton's failure to serve in Vietnam, McCain's political adviser told CNN, "I don't expect the Clintons or their allies to know much about Vietnam." But don't think McCain came out of this with his hands spanking clean. On the CBS early show McCain responded to accusations he was playing politics by falling into what some say is a sexist gaff.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: I was responding to attacks made on President Bush by Mrs. Clinton, Senator Kerry, Senator Reid, and other democrats.
COSTELLO: In case you missed the gaff, McCain refers to Senator Clinton as Mrs. and to Clinton's male counterparts as senator.
SABATO: It's sexist, but I don't think that will be a major consideration on the republican side in the nominating process. Many of the women who vote in Republican primaries are very conservative and prefer the title Mrs.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: As for Senator McCain's camp, well, they say Mrs was a sign of respect, not sexism. This marks the first time both sides have attacked and even though both sides say they've called a truce, do not expect it to last long, Wolf.
BLITZER: We'll see what happens. Carol, thanks very much. Carol Costello reporting for us. And CNN has just spoken to Senator McCain in his office on Capitol Hill. He says he has spoken now directly with Senator Clinton. He says as far as he is concerned, the incident is over. We're also getting some new information now on those two freight ships that have collided in the Mississippi River near New Orleans. Let's go back to our Internet reporter Abbi Tatton. Abbi?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, information coming into CNN from the Coast Guard that this collision between two freighters happened at about 3:30 p.m. central time. An area called Canner Bend in the Mississippi River, that's about a half hour west of New Orleans. We've got pictures on-line from a shipping enthusiast web site here. This is the Panamanian flag, Zagora that was one of the freighters involved in this collision. Pictures shown here collided with the Greek flag Torm Anholt, which was anchored at the time. The U.S. Coast Guard saying that ship, the Torm Anholt, is listing it has a gash on the starboard side. But no injuries, no environmental damage. The U.S. Coast Guard is on the scene and an investigation is underway. Wolf?
BLITZER: We'll stay on top of this story. Abbi? Thanks. Up next, voting on-line. Perhaps even by cell phone. Technology could make it reality soon. We'll show you the future of voting. Stay with us here on THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: With voters more closely divided than ever, there's a lot of attention on the way we vote and how technology could change it. CNN's Miles O'Brien has more on our welcome to the future report. Miles?
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, imagine simply logging on to the web or flipping pen your cell phone to cast your vote. Some insist that is just around the corner, but others say there are larger problems within our voting system that need to be addressed first.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN (voice-over): MIT's Ted Selker wants to change the way America casts its votes.
TED SELKER, M.I.T.: Registration problems account for the biggest number of lost votes. After that polling place operations and ballot design problems are the next biggest ones.
O'BRIEN: Selker and his team are testing some new technologies designed to make voting easier, more efficient, and, yet, tamper- proof.
SELKER: Technology has the possibility of making the voting process better by making sure that records can't be destroyed as easily. We have computers in every step of the game.
O'BRIEN: And while Selker does see a future that includes on- line voting, he says accuracy and security must come first.
SELKER: Voting by computer, voting by phone will be much cheaper to administer. It becomes exciting when it means that we can check our work, we can be sure of our ballots. And until we have that under control, we have to be very careful about how we deploy this equipment.
O'BRIEN (on camera): Part of the problem is there are so many ways we vote in this country. It's hard to improve such a patchwork of distinct systems. For now, we're left with one of the most complex voting systems in the world. Wolf?
BLITZER: Miles thank you. Miles O'Brien reporting. Remember, we're back in one hour, 7:00 p.m. eastern, much more of THE SITUATION ROOM coming up. In the meantime, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT", Kitty Pilgrim sitting in for Lou. Kitty?
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