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Nancy Grace
Orlando Student Stabbed to Death at Bus Stop by Friend; Christa Worthington Murder Trial Opens on Cape Cod
Aired October 19, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, we are live in Florida at a deadly attack in a Florida high school on the heels of that multiple schoolhouse shooting in Amish country, leaving parents wondering tonight how many school attacks will it take before someone takes action?
And tonight, to a wealthy Cape Cod enclave. A jury is struck in the mystery surrounding the death of an international fashion star. She was found dead in her seaside cottage. At the murder scene, her 2-year-old daughter found trying to revive her mom by feeding the mom with the baby`s sippy cup.
And special guest tonight Lou Dobbs claims there`s a war on the middle class, Lou Dobbs taking your calls.
First to Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, no indication it`s gang-related. At this point, it simply appears to be two young men involved in a verbal altercation that turned physical, that turned tragic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, another deadly school attack. I guess in addition to packing a PB & J, you could take one of these to school now, especially in Florida.
Out to Headline News anchor Tom Roberts. What happened?
TOM ROBERTS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: ... heartbreaking and gruesome story that happened today in central Florida. We`re talking about in Orlando University High School there, where students were being released for the day, basically showing up at the bus stop. And two students got into an altercation, a 15-year-old boy, Michael Nieves, and 17-year-old Kelvin De La Cruz.
Now, these boys earlier in the day, roughly around lunchtime, they got into a fight in the school lunchroom. And apparently, these two were friends. They lunched together pretty often. But they got in a fight over a 15-year-old girl classmate.
Well, they took it outside at 2:00 o`clock, and that`s when this fight got out of control, Kelvin De La Cruz stabbing Michael Nieves some three times in the abdomen, once in the back of the head, according to certain reports. He was then taken by certain students that witnessed this to school administrators, which then called on two ambulances to come to the high school itself and rush him off for medical treatment.
He was listed earlier, Nancy, as we were covering this today on CNN and Headline News -- he was listed in critical condition, and then we learned about the boy`s passing a little later this afternoon.
As you can see, students there were completely shocked by this -- an impromptu prayer circle that took place there. Most of the students, they were held after school. They wouldn`t let the buses leave -- investigators -- because apparently, when this fight took place, many of the students were already outside, getting ready to leave school for the day. And students say that when this attack happened, the boy, Kelvin De La Cruz, ran under a bus, changed his clothes, or at least tried to, and then ran back into the school. So very frightening for parents tonight, Nancy.
GRACE: Tom, it`s not so much that I`m concerned about a schoolhouse scuffle over a girlfriend. What I`m worried about is how these keep getting into our public schools. Take a listen to what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have a suspect in custody in this incident. What I regret to tell you is that 15-year-old Michael Nieves is the victim in this case, and he has passed away. So right now, it`s very much in the investigative stage.
At this point, no indication it`s gang-related. At this point, it simply appears to be two young men involved in a verbal altercation that turned physical, that turned tragic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Thomas Roberts, CNN Headline News anchor. Could you tell me what type of safety precautions they had at this school?
ROBERTS: Nancy, really not a lot of safety precautions in place. However, the superintendent of the school district there -- his name`s Ron Blocker (ph) -- he was talking earlier today about a zero tolerance policy that they really have about violence on campus, also talking about the fact that certain campuses, they don`t really want to have to implement certain procedures, such as metal detector that would actually catch the knife that you`re using to demonstrate tonight, authorities saying that Kelvin De La Cruz used a three to three-and-a-half-inch serrated knife to take off with this attack and hurt young Michael Nieves.
GRACE: Let`s go out to our G-men joining us tonight, all of them former well-respected employees with the federal government, with the FBI. Out to Mike Brooks first. I remember the very first juvenile homicide I had to prosecute. And I had to go through a metal detector in inner city Atlanta. That was way back in the early `90s. Why no metal detectors? Why no control over who`s coming in and out of these schools, Mike Brooks?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: That`s a good question, Nancy. In Washington, D.C., where I served 26 years there, they also have metal detectors and magnetometers in most of the schools. A lot of the inner city schools, you have it. But a lot of it is run by crime statistics. If there`s a history of crime at the particular school, sometimes they go ahead and put magnetometers in the school, Nancy. But the problem is, school systems don`t want to spend the money to do that. It takes additional security personnel, additional manpower, more money for the magnetometers.
You know, they did have a school resource officer at this place because that`s actually...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! What`s that, school resource officer?
BROOKS: School -- he is the officer, the sheriff`s deputy who is assigned to that particular high school. In fact, he is the one...
GRACE: That`s what they call them now, a resource officer?
BROOKS: That`s exactly what. He`s the liaison...
GRACE: OK.
BROOKS: ... between the school, the children, the parents. And they all carry radios. They`re tuned in just like -- they`re regular sworn officers or deputy sheriffs, and they know what`s going on around the school. So if something does happen outside of the school, Nancy, they`ll be able to respond quickly and tell the students inside what to do.
GRACE: To psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. That`s a fine how-do-you- do, to have to have police, basically a little a precinct in the high school. But if that`s what we need, then so be it, Bethany.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, violence happens at all age levels. I mean, we see sometimes children killing other children. But I think what was a precursor to homicide in this case was this guy felt that another boy was standing in the way of love. And that`s what we saw earlier this year when we covered that husband...
GRACE: Standing in the way of love?
MARSHALL: Well, remember the guy you covered earlier this year that shot the judge from a long range because the judge had presided over the divorce? It`s the same dynamic, that a lot of times, these perpetrators kill a third party that they think is stealing a loved one from them. It is a motivator towards homicide sometimes.
GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When they have a situation like this, the school moves very quickly to lock the campus down. That is, they get all the students into a secure location and they keep them there. Obviously, we don`t want a suspect to leave the campus, and perhaps more important, we don`t want any of those students in jeopardy with an armed man running around the campus. Apparently, that went very, very smoothly, with no chaos and no hitches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This level of violence is not only on a high school campus, it`s everywhere today. And it`s what -- big cities are yelling (ph) across America. There`s a 7 percent increase in violent crime across America by juveniles. I yelled about it at a juvenile assessment center meeting today. And more and more, we`re getting school teachers attacked at school, disruption at school campus. And our SROs are dealing with that on a constant basis. And this is another perfect example of school violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Here are two of the perpetrators in the Columbine school shootings, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold. Their parents didn`t know that one of them were trying to cook up a bomb out in the garage. Then, of course, the most recent school attack, a mass shooting in Amish country. No one can forget just before that -- this is all in the last two months -- Bailey, Colorado, shooting. Then a hallmark in school violence, Paducah, Kentucky, also Pearl, Mississippi. Many of these rural, idyllic, bucolic settings, very difficult to understand the nature behind these school shootings. And today, a school stabbing that claimed the life of a young man.
Back out to Thomas Roberts with CNN Headline News. How old is the alleged perpetrator?
ROBERTS: He`s 17 years old, Kelvin De La Cruz. That`s who authorities have in custody now. And Nancy, important to point out that both of these kids didn`t have any type of juvenile background record, not known to be really violent kids. And also, they were friends. But now De La Cruz is going to be charged as an adult, charged with first degree murder in the death of Michael Nieves.
GRACE: Let`s unchain the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York, Richard Herman, veteran defense attorney, and out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Renee Rockwell. Out to you, Renee. He`s charged as an adult. Surprised?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m not surprised, Nancy. But Florida, even though they do have the death penalty in that state, he`s still too young and I think he`s not eligible.
GRACE: Well, you`re right about that, under a recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling. Before this ruling in the last few months, it was not standard across the country. In some states, it was 18 years old, some as young as 17, some, 21. Now under this U.S. Supreme court ruling, it is 18 across all 50 states.
To Richard Herman. Explain the process as to why he`s not going to be treated as a juvenile and get the typical 18 months slap on the wrist.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, Nancy, this was a -- this resulted in a death. It was a violent killing. You have premeditation here from the earlier fight, a few hours earlier. He needs a lawyer. He needs to make a deal as soon as possible. This is a very, very difficult case to defend. They must make a deal on this case.
GRACE: But wait. That`s not exactly what I asked, not that I don`t agree with you they need to try to make a deal. Many jurisdictions, the process is called binding over.
Joining me here on the set, a trial lawyer himself, Court TV correspondent and anchor Jack Ford. Binding a juvenile over from juvenile court to adult court -- a big crime, a big court, a big felony. How does it happen?
JACK FORD, COURT TV: Here`s what happens now, Nancy. They`ve streamlined the process. You go in front of a judge. Prosecutor says, We want to treat him as an adult. And the judge has to be satisfied, first of all, that the crime is serious enough. And clearly, you`re talking about murder. That`s not a hard call for the judge to make. And the judge has to look at the background of the person. If they have a criminal record, it helps, but it doesn`t dispose of the issue.
Basically, now, judges now look at the crimes, and if they decide that it`s serious enough and you`re old enough, they`ll say, Fine. You know what? We`re not treating you as a juvenile anymore. You committed an adult crime. We`re going to treat you as an adult.
GRACE: Get back to our other two lawyers, Richard Herman, Renee Rockwell. They`re also called designated felonies -- designated felonies, specific felony crimes deemed so serious, juveniles will be treated as an adult, typically including murder, rape, aggravated assault, armed robbery, sodomy and arson, also trafficking with intent to distribute drugs. In your jurisdiction, Renee, how does it work?
ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy -- and back to what Mr. Ford was saying. A judge will look at many different types of crimes and decide, Can the juvenile system serve this particular child? In a case like this, Nancy, this is one of the few crimes where it doesn`t seem, like you said, that little slap on the wrist, is going to address this problem. What we have is a dead child, not anything that maybe the juvenile system can address.
GRACE: The suspect`s name, Kelvin De La Cruz. He is a 17-year-old student at the school.
Let`s go out to the lines, Liz. Marge in Illinois. Hi, Marge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: How`re you doing? What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s more like a statement.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son was stabbed in 1986. He was 15 years old.
GRACE: Did he live?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wasn`t supposed to, but he did. He did more than what they thought he would. I mean, he was in the hospital for months on end.
GRACE: At school?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Do you remember that moment when you found out...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!
GRACE: ... your son had been stabbed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. And they told me that if I had gone to the police station and yelled Safe School Act (ph), that they would have put the kid in jail. You know, you don`t do that. When your son`s been stabbed, you go to the hospital, you stay there, you know, especially...
GRACE: And how old was the perpetrator in your son`s case?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old was he?
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he was 16 going on 17. He was older. And they asked him in the courts how many weapons he carried at any given time in school, he says, No more than 10.
GRACE: Question. What was his sentence?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I kind of got conned on that because the prosecuting attorney told me, she said, If you want to see jail time, don`t try him as an adult because it`ll be too hard, blah, blah, blah. Second day of the trial, she -- it wasn`t a trial, but second day, she comes out, she says, He won`t be put in jail. She says, They`ll just give him probation, which is what they did.
GRACE: So he got straight probation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He got nothing. He never even spent one night in jail.
GRACE: Straight probation. And he was how old, 15?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looking back on this, he was 16-and-a-half or 17. They didn`t want to try him as...
GRACE: That is definitely old enough to be treated...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As an adult.
GRACE: ... as an adult in Illinois.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
GRACE: Let`s go back out to Thomas Roberts joining us. Thomas, what is so disturbing to me is not that a fight breaks out amongst high school boys, but that you can get into school with one of these. This is a facsimile, a three-inch blade, a serrated blade, like the one that was brought into the school building. And as a result, another teen is dead.
You`re telling me this school has no metal detectors. What do they offer in the way of security? I mean, why do parents even bother to drop their kids off? I mean, I wouldn`t.
ROBERTS: Nancy, those are great questions. And probably a lot of parents are going to be asking those questions of the superintendent and also of the principal administrator of that school, as well as surrounding schools in the Orlando area.
But a lot of people made comments today about the fact that they have a zero tolerance policy about violence in schools, but to add a metal detector, to add that type of police protection to going to school, they didn`t want to make it like a prison. And that`s what they say they`re fearful of, turning these higher -- you know, institutions of higher learning into a prison-like atmosphere, where they`re thinking every kid`s going to be carrying some type of weapon.
GRACE: Back out to our G-men, all former feds. Let`s go to Don Clark, former head of the FBI Houston bureau. Other than metal detectors, Don, what can we do?
DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD, FBI HOUSTON OFFICE: Well, Nancy, you`ve heard the old saying that it takes a village, and that really is what it takes because we`ve got to start looking at these kids from the time they leave home as to what they`re taking and what they`re doing, making bombs in garages, having knives and guns, and so forth. We`ve got to identify this. And there are many people in the community who know such things and they know about such kids. And we`ve got to have a place for those people to come and talk to others, whether it`s police or somebody in the community, to try to identify these kids and what they`re doing to prevent this thing from happening.
The key is preventing, not talking about it after some kid has been stabbed. And yes, they`ve got to put metal detectors in these schools. So many don`t want them because of the appearance that it brings there. So if you`re willing to give up a kid a year...
GRACE: I guess it looks better to them to have a kid being rolled out on a gurney to an ambulance.
To you, Jack Trimarco. Jack, I agree with the theory that Don Clark is asserting. Let`s all talk about it and have a happy home environment. Guess what? Not going to happen. What`s the alternative?
JACK TRIMARCO, FORMER FBI PROFILER, POLYGRAPH UNIT CHIEF: Well, Nancy, I hate to beat a dead horse, but we`ve got to spread the word. There`s got to be a communication across the country with all school authorities, with parents and with the children and the young adults. We`ve got to let them know that it doesn`t matter whether it`s Beverly Hills or Bailey, Colorado, or Columbine or Manhattan, kids are kids. And this sounds like we had an inadequate personality who had a stressor in his life. It could have been financial, but more likely, it was relational, and he acted out on it. We`re probably not going to be able to head something like that off. But the horrific events of the past few weeks, absolutely it`s, a communication...
GRACE: One after the next after the next. And I`m all for communication. Don`t get me wrong. I`d be mad if you didn`t suggest that that`s the answer. But we`ve been talking about that for, oh, let`s see, 20 years, and it`s not working. So now -- you did mention the word uniform, and that says to me federal government. I hate to drag the feds into anything, but what we`ve got right now isn`t working. As long as one of these comes into school, and at the end of the day I have to report there`s a dead 15-year-old at school, something is very wrong.
We`ll all be right back, but let`s take a look at this week`s "Legal Forecast."
In tonight`s "Legal Forecast," first to Crater Lake, Oregon, day six in the search for 8-year old, 8-year-old Sammie Boehlke (ph) last seen at his dad`s car on Saturday. And then to the Garden State -- headline. Over one 125 child porn offenders busted. U.S. attorney Chris Christie (ph) announces the national child porn sting in Newark.
Now the five-day "Legal Forecast." Tomorrow, day three in the Cape Cod murder mystery. Victim? Fashion writer Christa Worthington.
Feeling the heat on Monday, Enron exec Jeff Skilling facing 20 to 30 years behind bars for his part in robbing employees of money and pensions.
Tuesday, the trial in the murder of Indiana University student Jill Behrman goes forward.
Wednesday, a legal eye on the Department of Education`s annual meeting on preventing drugs, alcohol and violence in higher education. And rounding out the "Legal Forecast," the investigation of former political powerhouse, Florida rep Mark Foley. Will Foley face criminal charges?
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... based on an assumption that a Vassar-educated 46-year-old world-traveling wealthy heiress could not possibly have had consensual sex with a black, uneducated, troubled gardener!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This case has nothing to do with race. This case has to do with a horrendous crime. And the color of his skin has nothing to do with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Murder in paradise. A mystery in Cape Cod. An international fashion writer found dead in her own home. Years pass, no resolution. Now is there an answer?
Joining us from Court TV, Court TV news anchor Jack Ford. What happened?
FORD: You know, Nancy, it`s one of those terrible tragedies that have all the characteristics of dramatic fiction. You have a woman who was very successful in the fashion business, literally a globe-trotter as a fashion writer, and she decided to walk away from that life and she moved back up to Cape Cod. She had lived there as a child. She wanted to take care of her ailing mother, and basically said, This is where I`m going to be from now on. She gave birth to a child. She was a single mother.
What happens then, back in January 2002, a former boyfriend -- still remained a friend -- stopped in to drop something off. When he opens the door, as we said, it was this terrible tragedy. She is on the floor, half dressed. She has been beaten, stabbed, a single stab wound through the chest so hard that it chipped the floor underneath her body. And to compound the tragedy, her 2-year-old child is there with her, has been for more than a day since this murder took place, trying to nurse on the mother, covered with blood herself. You can imagine the kind of scene that that was.
GRACE: Jack, is it true that when her body was discovered, the little 2-year-old girl had been trying to feed the mom, to bring her back by feeding her with her little sippy cup?
FORD: This is one of these stories that just brings tears to your eyes on any number of levels. A 2-year-old child had been left alone, the mother dead on the floor, as we said, trying to nurse from the mother and apparently trying to feed her own mother using the little cup. When the friend got there, when the emergency personnel got there, the cup was covered in blood and the little girl saying to everybody who showed up, Mommy fell down. That`s all she knew, and she was trying to wake her mother up.
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(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. This line is recorded. What is your emergency?
TIM ARNOLD, EX-BOYFRIEND: Please send somebody to 50 Depot Road.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s the problem?
ARNOLD: It`s Christa Worthington. I don`t know what happened. I think she fell or something. I`m sure she`s dead. I think she`s dead.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is somebody there?
ARNOLD: I just -- I`m a friend and I was returning a flashlight to her (INAUDIBLE) Her 2-year-old daughter was here, nursing on her body.
911 OPERATOR: OK. I`ll send them right over.
ARNOLD: OK. Thank you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: An international fashion writer found dead in her own home, her little 2-year-old child left there on the murder scene, left there alone with her dead mother, when she was found by an ex-boyfriend.
Back out to Jack Ford, Court TV news anchor. Jack, take a listen to this 911 tape. Hold on. Let me get that for you.
In the meantime, Jack, how did they finally get the perpetrator now on trial?
FORD: Another one of those stories, those twists and turns we talked about, Nancy, that makes this read like fiction. Police realized that it must have been somebody that had had some contact with Christa Worthington over the period of time, so they started checking out everybody. They wanted to check out the mail -- the person who delivered the mail, the person who did work on her property, the person who picked up her garbage. They talked to all of these people, and they asked them all if they would give DNA samples because they realized -- they were able to get a DNA profile from semen on her body.
Well, they eventually took samples from the man who was the garbage collector. It took months before they got around to do it, even though he agreed to do it. And it took some 15 -- or 13 months, I should say, from the time they took the sample to the time they got the results back from the lab, that because it`s a very small, overworked lab and they had a lot of tests to do. So once they had that, they realized, We have a DNA match, they grabbed him.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911: 911, this line is recorded. What is your emergency?
TIM ARNOLD, FOUND BODY: Please sent somebody to 50 Depot Road.
911: OK, what`s the problem?
ARNOLD: It`s Christa Worthington. I don`t know what happened. I think she fell down or something. I am sure she is dead. I think she is dead.
911: OK, is somebody there?
ARNOLD: I just -- I`m a friend, and I was returning a flashlight to her. (INAUDIBLE) Her 3-year-old daughter was here nursing on her body.
911: OK, I will send them right over.
ARNOLD: OK, thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us now, Maria Flook, author of "Invisible Eden." She was in court today. Maria, I understand that the main defense is going to be an attack on this victim, Christa Worthington, a mother of this little 2-year-old girl. Why?
MARIA FLOOK, AUTHOR, "INVISIBLE EDEN": Excuse me, you said -- what is the question?
GRACE: It seems like the defense is going to be an attack on the victim.
FLOOK: Oh, I don`t see it that way at all, Nancy. The defense attorney today had four or five very strong defenses that had nothing to do with the victim.
GRACE: Oh, I thought they insinuated in their opening statement that she slept around with a lot of guys, that a lot of guys had motive for murder?
FLOOK: Absolutely not. That wasn`t -- that was not done at all. He did ask Tim Arnold when he did the cross-questioning to Tim Arnold if Christa only had lovers of status, because she did have a lover that was Gloria Vanderbilt`s son, Stan Stokowski.
But then Tim explained that, no, she had dated, of course, the father of her out-of-wedlock baby, who was a shellfish constable. And the defense attorney asked him about himself, was he a man of status? Well, Tim has been out of work for 10 years, and he is not a man of status.
And he had other very strong defenses brought up today; it was actually a pretty dynamic day for the defense attorney, Robert George.
GRACE: What were the other defenses?
FLOOK: Well, he brought up -- first of all, he sort of introduced Tim Arnold today as someone the jury could possibly feel some emotions of reasonable doubt about. He had the witness describe his history with Christa Worthington as one that was sort of volatile. He had anger management issues. He had arguments.
GRACE: OK, so I get it. Tim Arnold as a possible suspect.
FLOOK: That`s one.
GRACE: What else?
FLOOK: The other one that was a strong defense today is he had Tim describe a rather rough interrogation by Massachusetts state police...
GRACE: OK.
FLOOK: ... a three-hour interrogation, when Tim had gone to a mental health center because he was feeling suicidal. As soon as he was admitted and he was in bed in his pajamas, the Massachusetts state police came in and really gave him a rather confrontational interview.
GRACE: OK, so tough questioning by police. What`s the other defense?
FLOOK: Which the defense attorney was trying to link to this concept of false confession, which he is pushing for the defendant.
GRACE: Ah. So you think they`re going to go for false confession. What about it? To Jack Ford, I clearly got the impression, after listening to every word of the opening statement and in the cross-examination of an ex-boyfriend, that the defense is clearly zeroing in on this woman`s reputation. That`s the way I heard it.
FORD: You know, I got that same sense, Nancy. I don`t think they`re going to be as obvious about it as we`ve seen in some other cases. But I think, and as Maria said, the defense is trying to raise questions. You know how it works inside a courtroom. You spent a lot of years there, as did I.
And those questions are going to come from, could it have been somebody else? Because the defense says it wasn`t this man. So they`re going to say, yes, it could have been somebody else, and maybe it could have been this former boyfriend, maybe it could have been another former boyfriend.
So they want to raise the specter in there of question, the specter of doubt saying, "Who might it have been?" And they`re also going to do, as Mary just say, they`re going to try to do something to defuse the impact of the various statements that this defendant has given the police officers.
GRACE: Here is what the ex-boyfriend had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARNOLD: My dad let me out of the car, and he went to turn around. I decided that it would be kind of rude to just leave the flashlight on the back porch, so I went and I was going to knock on her door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what happened when you got to the door, sir?
ARNOLD: I saw that it was partially ajar. And I looked in, and I saw her lying there with Eva. And my first thought was that that was a really strange place to nurse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us tonight, a special guest, medical examiner, forensic pathologist Dr. Daniel Spitz. Daniel, thank you for being with us. The condition of the body, very critical to the state`s case. And the reason I say that is because the defendant`s sperm, his DNA, was found in and around the body, his saliva on the body.
I want to talk to you about trying to place the time of the intercourse. Was it around the time of the murder? How can we tell that?
DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, you can look at the sperm and try and determine the degradation of the sperm. The sperm consists of two parts, the head and the tail. That begins to separate after a certain number of hours. The motility of the sperm changes over time, so certainly you can try to look at the sperm and try and put that in context with when the murder occurred.
Clearly, this sexual act occurred in and around the time of the death, and it`s going to be very difficult for the defense to try and put this as two separate acts, one in which involved consensual sex, and one in which involved a separate act of the murder. Clearly, those are going to be very difficult to separate out. I think the defense is going to be unable to do it.
GRACE: Let`s go back out to the g-men, all former federal agents. To you, Mike Brooks, what will we learn from the crime scene forensically?
BROOKS: Well, I`ll tell you, Nancy, apparently this was a very, very violent-looking crime scene. Apparently they found her personal items in the driveway; they found some grass on her body. When they found her inside the house, she was naked from the waist down.
There was DNA on her. Apparently one of the doors had been kicked in. She had bruises, and scrapes, and cuts all over her arms. And there was apparently -- the medical examiner said the autopsy that the cause of death was from a stab wound to the heart and the chest, and so apparently very, very violent.
You know, what else they found, they aren`t really saying. But, you know, I`m sure there`s other -- the Massachusetts state police did the crime scene. They`re an extremely professional, well-respected law enforcement agency and do a great job, so I`m sure that the crime scene was done extremely well. Hairs and fibers, DNA, fingerprint evidence, saliva from the body, all of these things are going to play a big role in evidence during this trial.
GRACE: And there in the crime scene, in the pool of blood where the mom was lying, baby Eva, age 2 years old, trying to nurse. The mom there, lifeless, trying to revive the mom with her own little sippy cup, by trying to feed her, apparently.
Let`s go out to the lines. Jeanie in South Carolina, hi, Jeanie. Hi, Jeanie.
CALLER: Hi. I was just going to -- I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: I just wanted to real quick -- do they have the death penalty in Massachusetts?
GRACE: Oh, Jeanie, you`re a girl after my own heart. First question. No. The answer is no. You can kill as many people as you want to in Massachusetts and you will not get the death penalty.
Let`s go out to the lawyers joining us tonight, Renee Rockwell and Richard Herman. To you, Renee Rockwell, what will the theory be? Because you`ve got the defendant`s DNA, his sperm and his saliva, on the body. So what`s he going to argue? "We had consensual sex, and then right after I left some unknown intruder came in and killed her"? It sounds like Natalee Holloway`s case down in Aruba, Joran Van Der Sloot, Volume Two.
ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, of course he had said that he had consensual sex. Good thing, because he gave his DNA. And, you know, that doesn`t lie. He`s proven to have been somewhere in and around her, having sex with her at around the time of the murder. So what he`s obviously going to say is, yes, I had consensual sex with her.
GRACE: And my question to you is, what is he going to say?
ROCKWELL: He`s going to say, "I had consensual sex with her, but I didn`t kill her."
GRACE: OK.
ROCKWELL: There might have been a statement that he made, and I understand that his statement has changed. So rule number one, you don`t give a statement, because now his lawyer is going to have to keep those statements out.
GRACE: OK, Renee, I didn`t know you were such a great dancer, because you danced all around that question without answering it. And it is -- here`s their only shot. It`s simple Trial 101. They`ve got to try, again, another Miranda challenge, a challenge to the statement. He gave incriminating statements. What about it, Richard Herman? Where is he going to go?
HERMAN: Well, Nancy, I know under Grace law you`ve got this guy convicted already. But I`ve got to tell you something: There are defenses here. There are no vaginal tearing. There is no bruising. There are no struggle signs.
GRACE: Other than the stab wound to the heart.
HERMAN: And no physical trauma, no sign of rape. So by charging this guy with rape when there`s no sign of rape plays right into the defense`s position that this is absolutely racially motivated by the prosecution. The race card is going to be played in this case, and it`s going to be played all the way. And it should be. There are at least five other white suspects who obviously law enforcement got frustrated with. So after three and a half years, they go after and indict a black man, the only black man in the town.
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LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Speaking of racism, you said in one of your columns that the English debate in the Senate bill is really about racism. Here we go again. Why is it racist to insist on English as the language?
Absolutely, as we reported, disgusting what public education is doing. Public education that`s supposed to be the great equalizer in this society, which is built on equality and opportunity, and it`s a travesty.
My gosh, and I`ll ask you, Congressman Costin (ph), when I say that the citizenship and immigration service in this country is overwhelmed and incapable of administering the program it has now, do you think I`m overstating the case?
Now I want to hear what you`re going to do for the middle-class workers in your district. I`ve talked about this with various congressional and senatorial folks. I haven`t been able to get a single straight answer back on it. Maybe you can. What are you going to do for the people who are working for a living and their families in your district?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. War on the middle class, says Lou Dobbs. He`s joining us tonight, and we are taking your calls.
You know, you talk a lot about the public school system. Did you know somebody managed to bring one of these into a public school today...
DOBBS: Oh, yes.
GRACE: ... and wreak havoc? How rich do you have to be to get a good education in America?
DOBBS: Well, right now, I can tell you this, that Hispanics in this country are dropping out of high school. Half of them are dropping out of high school. Black Americans are dropping out, half of them, from high school. Just about a third of white students are dropping out of high school.
I don`t know what it takes, but I know one thing: If we continue to be consumed with these ideas of charter schools, and vouchers, and we talk about choice instead of quality, and in demanding excellence in our public school system, which, as I say, it`s the great equalizer in our society. This is not something for a 10-year program like the No Child Left Behind. This is a crisis. It`s an emergency. Governors, educators, and the president and Congress have got to respond.
GRACE: You know, you just struck a chord with me. You said education is the great equalizer.
DOBBS: Yes.
GRACE: And in our country, like no other, you know, my father and mother put us through school. She was an accountant, and he worked on the railroad 42 years. They didn`t get to go to college. We were the first ones to get to college. That`s all they wanted. And they worked so hard to do it. Now people don`t have that chance.
DOBBS: Unfortunately, it`s absolutely true. When you think back to the early `50s in this country, the GI Bill, GIs coming back, based on their desire, their ability, having an opportunity to get an education. I can name you -- I`m a product of public schools. All of my kids went to public schools. My wife went to public schools. If I hadn`t had five or six teachers...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: But what are we going to do about it, Lou? We can talk about it until we`re blue in the face. Do you think anybody in Congress is actually going to do something about it? And if they would, what would you want them to do?
DOBBS: Well, we can start with a couple of things. One is, the federal government provides just about 8 percent of the total funding of education in this country. The second thing that happens is state and local provides just about 85 percent of the total funding. But we don`t have a national core curriculum. One in 10 teachers has a major in the subject they`re teaching, in the natural sciences and mathematics.
GRACE: You know what, Lou? I thought you were going to say one in 10 teachers gets arrested for sex with a student. You know, on my end of it, that`s what I`m looking at...
DOBBS: I forgot about your perspective on this.
GRACE: Yes. But let me switch topics. How much money have we spent in Iraq? We`re trying to sort out their government while we have political powerhouse Foley writing nasty e-mails to pages in our government. How much are we sinking into Iraq?
DOBBS: $469 billion has been appropriated for the war in Iraq. We`re spending about $530 billion a year in this country on education, K through 12. The fact is, we`re spending enough money on education. In nearly every part of the country, there are parts, poorer states, that are not getting a break, but we have schools that are too big, classrooms that are much too large. And we`re not committing ourselves to education. And the fact of the matter is: It is a crisis.
GRACE: Back to Iraq. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJ. GEN. WILLIAM CALDWELL, ARMY SPOKESMAN: The violence is, indeed, disheartening. In Baghdad alone, we`ve seen a 22 percent increase in attacks during the first three weeks of Ramadan, as compared to the three weeks preceding Ramadan. In Baghdad, Operation Together Forward has made a difference in the focus areas but has not met our overall expectations of sustaining a reduction in the levels of the violence. We are working very closely with the government of Iraq to determine how to best to refocus our efforts.
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GRACE: War on the middle class, Lou Dobbs, not just complaining about it, not just another talking head -- you can get that on any channel -- he`s trying to do something about it. This book offering solutions.
First of all, what did you write in here? I tried to read the inscription, everybody on the staff. What does that say, "To Nancy, meet you at 8:00"? That`s not nice.
DOBBS: That isn`t nice, is it?
GRACE: What does that say?
DOBBS: And I said, "Raise hell."
GRACE: Oh, that`s what that says? Oh, well, I can certainly do that. Let`s go to the lines. Ruthie in South Carolina, got a question for Lou?
CALLER: Yes, ma`am, I do. I`d like to know if he`s ever going to run for president, because he`s got my vote.
DOBBS: Well, that`s very kind of you.
GRACE: Oh, and he`s so modest.
DOBBS: Well, you know, actually, I`m getting -- the older I get, the humbler I get, I`ll put it that way. But that`s a nice thought. But what this country does not need is one more politician, so thanks for the thought.
GRACE: Before we go to break, I`ve got to ask you about North Korea. What?
DOBBS: Well, North Korea -- one of the -- first, let me put this in the context of the middle class. The middle class has got to demand straight talk from our elected officials...
GRACE: Well, you know who`s going to get drafted first if it comes to that?
DOBBS: I know who`s going to get drafted. I don`t know who`s going to get drafted. But the fact of the matter is, we, as a nation, have got to start demanding straight talk, whether it`s North Korea, whether it`s Iran, whether it`s Iraq or Afghanistan. And our generals have got to be held accountable for not getting the job done, because they have the finest troops in the world to do it.
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GRACE: Lou Dobbs didn`t want this little girl to come into the country. She`s only 3 years old. Some people would call it cold.
Welcome back, everybody. The headline tonight, Lou Dobbs, "War on the Middle Class." And tonight, as a gesture of goodwill, a present to Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: I can`t wait to see what this is. Well, you`re starting out great.
GRACE: And for you and your staff, your favorite colors.
DOBBS: You better believe it.
GRACE: The American flag.
DOBBS: Thank you.
GRACE: Don`t let it touch the ground or we`ll have to burn it.
DOBBS: Well, we won`t do that. We won`t do that.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Who`s our caller? Karen in Ohio, hi, Karen.
CALLER: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: Good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is on education. I work for Columbus public schools in Columbus, Ohio. And there need to be federal guidelines. When are these parents going to be held accountable for these kids?
DOBBS: You`re exactly right. Nancy just held up a knife a moment ago, the tragic shootings in this country. The fact that we have reached a point where discipline is a secondary and often just non-existent element of the classroom of public schools is horrific. Parents, in my day, you had to have a pretty good reason not to be absolutely 100 percent respectful.
GRACE: Why don`t you want that little girl to come into this country? She`s only 3.
DOBBS: Which little girl is that?
GRACE: The one, the little Hispanic girl wrapped in the American flag.
DOBBS: Well, I think she`s delightful, and as a matter of fact I would love to have her in this country.
GRACE: As long as she`s paying taxes?
DOBBS: I would love to have her in this country if she came here legally. I would love to see more immigrants in this country, and I would like to see a lot fewer illegal immigrants.
GRACE: With us, our friend, Lou Dobbs. His book, looking for solutions, "War on the Middle Class."
Let`s stop for a moment to remember Army Sergeant David "Joey" Davis, 32, Lisbon, Maryland. An EMT training as a firefighter, he served as an army combat medic. Davis loved country music and happiest when he is in his cowboy boots and hat. Leaves behind a grieving widow, Rebecca, a brother and two sisters. David "Joey" Davis, American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests, but especially to you for inviting us into your home. Special thank you to Lou Dobbs. NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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