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Nancy Grace

Kentucky Fugitive Couple With Baby Apprehended in Illinois; Human Remains Found in Woods Near Raleigh, North Carolina

Aired October 20, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 9-month- old Kentucky baby stolen last Monday, found alive, the kidnappers also wanted in the brutal beating death of the grandmother-turned-social worker who took care of the baby boy. After grainy surveillance video of the alleged perps emerges at an Illinois gas station, police and FBI hone in on the spot and score. Repeat, the baby boy recovered alive.
And tonight, more breaking news out of North Carolina. Are remains found in a heavily wooded area near Raleigh those of 23-year-old Michelle Bullard? Forensics being completed at this hour. As we wait for those forensic tests, tonight Michelle`s mom speaks exclusively here.

And tonight, in the search for 2-year-old Trenton Duckett, Trenton`s father begins a search of his own.

First tonight to Kentucky.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This evening at approximately 8:30 PM, 9-month-old Saige Terrell was safely recovered in the vicinity of Godfrey, Illinois. An Amber Alert was previously issued for Saige after social worker Boni Frederick was killed in Henderson, Kentucky. Police officers knew the person that was murdered. She worked for local social services. It was a very brutal, very violent murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Repeat, the baby boy stolen in Kentucky found alive many miles away in Illinois.

Let`s go out to Teressa Payton with WHAS 840 AM for the latest. Teressa, what happened?

TERESSA PAYTON, WHAS 840 AM: Well, last night, FBI closed in on Renee Terrell and her boyfriend, Christopher Luttrell. They say they found them in a camper out there near a farm in Godfrey, Illinois. That camper at the time, they had no heat and no electricity. And from what they told us, the camper was the type of camper that hooks up to an SUV. So definitely, they were without food, no heat, no electricity, so they were getting pretty desperate out there. But they say they surrendered with no problems. They got the baby, and he appears to be doing fine.

GRACE: How far away were they from the spot from which the baby was originally stolen, Teressa?

PAYTON: They actually made it all the way close to hear St. Louis, so they were quite a ways away from out of western Kentucky into southern Illinois. So they were about 30 miles, I guess (INAUDIBLE) north of St. Louis.

GRACE: Take a listen to what the FBI had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pair was arrested near Godfrey, Illinois, without incident. Terrell, age 33, was arrested for kidnapping and unlawful flight to avoid prosecution. Based upon arrest warrants out of Kentucky, Luttrell, age 23, was arrested for parole violation and unlawful flight to avoid prosecution based on arrest warrants out of Kentucky.

We`re going to interview both suspects tonight, and I mean, most likely -- both subjects are suspect in this homicide. I mean, you know, we`re confident they were both there whenever the child was brought there by the social worker, and of course, you know, they stole the social worker`s car and cell phone and some other items. So we expect probably some time tomorrow, once we get back home, that we`ll be filing murder warrants on both of the subjects.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And of course, Kentucky is a death penalty state. Joining us, Court TV news correspondent, on the case from the beginning, Jean Casarez. Jean what were the conditions of the arrest?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, the conditions were that they were in a trailer, and they were trying to hide a vehicle that -- Boni Frederick`s vehicle, that had been stolen. And because of telephone and cell phone records, they were able to track them and locate them, arrested them on the spot. Nancy, they were originally arrested because of a charge of kidnapping out on the mother, and also a parole violation. But now we understand those murder warrants have been issued out of the state of Kentucky for the couple.

GRACE: Repeat, a baby boy 9 months old stolen from a social worker in Kentucky has been found alive nearly 200 miles away from where the baby was stolen. These two in custody tonight, Renee Terrell and Christopher Luttrell. Renee Terrell, the mom, the mom of the baby boy, the biological mother, Christopher Luttrell, the boyfriend. We`re taking your calls tonight regarding this really miraculous recovery.

Back out to Mike Brooks joining us, former D.C. cop, as well as a former fed. Mike, you were right, they were still in the same vehicle.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know, it sounds like they didn`t have much money, and they weren`t going to -- that`s the only form of transportation they had, Nancy. But it was good work on behalf of the Henderson, Kentucky, Police Department and the FBI, another great joint operation. And the FBI SWAT team out of Springfield, Illinois, conducted the raid this morning. They surrounded it, and they gave up without a fight. And I mean, when you`ve got the FBI SWAT team surrounding a camper like that, there`s not much else they could do.

GRACE: Well, Mike Brooks, did you hear they took the stolen car? There you see it. This grainy video emerged in Illinois at a local gas station. They`re still in the murder victim`s vehicle, this 2000 Daewoo.

BROOKS: And apparently, they threw her purse out on I-64. Her purse was found by a truck driver on Interstate 64 in Illinois, and -- apparently, a few days ago, Nancy. But this is good work by the FBI in Henderson. They used cell their cell phone records, were able to track down where the cell phone had been on, and kind of just led them right to the area. And then through some citizen seeing this car that was trying to hide in a field, they went in this camper, were living -- apparently, hadn`t eaten in about three days. So I`m sure that the poor baby hadn`t eaten, either.

GRACE: Well, Mike, did you...

BROOKS: ... but they got them and they`re locked up now.

GRACE: ... hear that they drove the stolen vehicle through a plowed field? You know what that means, a plowed field? And they naturally got it stuck.

BROOKS: Absolutely. Not very smart at all. I guess we`re not dealing with brain surgeons here, Nancy. But -- and that`s not a four- wheel -- that`s not an SUV to go driving through any kind of fields. They were desperate to get away. They were desperate to hide from law enforcement. But they were tracked down and now behind bars.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez. Is it true neither of the adults had eaten for days? That can`t bode well for the baby.

CASAREZ: No, that`s true, but we understand the baby is in excellent condition tonight because he was immediately taken to a hospital for observation. He was in very good in condition, and we understand he`s being transported back to Kentucky.

GRACE: Here`s what police had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been a rough four days for us. You know, most of the police officers knew the person that was murdered. She worked for local social services. It was a very brutal, very violent murder. And of course, we were looking for these individuals and we were very worried about the child, too. Someone that, you know, could do that kind of extreme violence, and the baby was with them. We`re very relieved.

The baby was a ward of the state of Kentucky. It was in foster care. And what happened, from what I understand, is that there was court-order visitation with the mother for two hours twice a week. And of course, the victim, Boni Frederick, she was a worker for the state, was in charge of taking the child to see the mother for the two-hour visitation when she was murdered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us tonight is a very special guest, the FBI special agent in charge of the recovery of this little baby, a 9-month-old baby boy. Weysan Dun is joining us. Mr. Dun, thank you for being with us. How did the recovery of the baby go down?

WEYSAN DUN, FBI SPECIAL AGENT-IN-CHARGE, SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS, DIV.: Well, it went down very, very smoothly, as other guests on your show have indicated. We received a variety of leads and tips that ultimately led us to the location,. The location that they were in is a very rural area consisting of gentle, rolling hills with very dense forestation, heavily wooded. And they were found ultimately in a travel trailer, kind of a recreational vehicle-type trailer that one would tow behind an SUV.

The trailer was in the vicinity of a home, which was actually occupied at the time. And the neighborhood that they were in is quite rural. It`s a nice neighborhood among large, wooded lots, so the trailer was not immediately adjacent to the home. Once we identified which trailer they were in, the FBI SWAT team from Springfield, Illinois, along with 50 other agents and officers, moved in. We made forced entry. We used a battering ram to enter the trailer...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait a minute! With us, FBI special agent Weysan Dun. I thought it went smooth as silk, but you had to use a battering ram to get in?

DUN: Well, that is to ensure the safety of individuals. You certainly don`t want to knock and give them the opportunity to potentially respond or harm anybody in the trailer, and the battering ram actually is a very, very quick and effective way of entering a trailer. And upon entering the trailer, there was absolutely no resistance. We recovered the baby, who was immediately transported to the hospital. And the doctors have advised us that the baby is in good health and apparently had been treated well. And the individuals were arrested without incident.

GRACE: Now, my question is whether these two knew the person that owned the property. Did the property owner know that they were bunked up in this travel trailer?

DUN: No. The occupants of the residence had no idea that these individuals were in the trailer, and we have no indication that these individuals had any known contacts in the area. It appears they randomly selected that particular location.

GRACE: With us, FBI special agent Weysan Dun. Mr. Dun, very rarely we see a happy ending like this. Were you surprised?

DUN: Well, you`re absolutely right. It`s very rare where all of the circumstances work out well, so we were pleasantly surprised. However, we like to think with the intense cooperation that we had among numerous law enforcement agencies, as well as citizens, that an outcome like this is what we had hoped for.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Erica in Kentucky. Hi, Erica.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just want to say I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do want to day, I`m a citizen of Kentucky, and I`m not trying to condone what the mother supposedly did -- I mean, my heart goes out to the victim`s family. But maybe this situation will make the federal government look into the social services, like child protective services in Kentucky, because they`re being investigated themselves. They`re very undertrained, and they`re very deceitful. And I`m just saying the situation...

GRACE: Well, my question to you, Erica, is how do you think the social services worker who was murdered, an elderly lady, grandmother- turned-social worker -- how do you think she played a part in this, or do you think that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From experience with the social services here in Kentucky -- you know, like I said, my heart goes out to the victim`s family, but I probably would say that she played a part in it.

GRACE: Now, what part could this grandma possibly have played? You know this mom has had one baby die, allegedly crib death. And I`m publicly calling for an autopsy on that baby tonight. She`s had three other babies taken from her, allegedly because of neglect. And this grandma was simply facilitating a visit with the biological mom. So Erica, what could she possibly have had to do with it? I don`t understand!

Now, let`s go out to the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Mickey Sherman and Greg Skordis. To you, Mickey Sherman. Now that`s an about-face. What did the grandmother have to do with this? She was a social worker who was just trying to have a home visit. She`s dead!

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I know I`m the defense shill here. That`s -- that`s what the label says. But I mean, that`s crazy. I mean...

GRACE: Hey! You chose your route out of law school, I chose mine. Now, you -- this is the row you hoed, all right?

SHERMAN: I`m not apologizing, I`m just saying, Nancy, I cannot see how you can in any way place the blame in any part on the social worker. You know, you kind of get a discount when you kidnap your own kids because at least it shows that you love the kid, unless you harm them. But when you kill somebody, a stranger...

GRACE: Yes, the little problem of the dead body, Mickey Sherman. What do you do with that?

SHERMAN: No, I`m telling you, it`s horrible. I`m just saying it`s almost -- it`s not totally undefendable, but it gets pretty close. Usually, you kill or hurt the spouse over the child, but to hurt a third- party stranger...

GRACE: You do? Wait!

SHERMAN: ... that`s horrible.

GRACE: Normally you kill the spouse?

SHERMAN: Yes, that`s what you usually see in these situations, when they`re fighting over children.

GRACE: Well, I -- I...

SHERMAN: I`m not condoning it, I`m just giving you...

GRACE: I don`t know who...

SHERMAN: ... the lay of the land.

GRACE: ... your clients are, but typically, when there`s a child custody issue, you try not to kill anybody, Mickey Sherman!

SHERMAN: Well, I`m not saying it`s in the handbook that that`s what we tell our clients to do. I`m just saying when you have these scary horror stories, that`s what you generally see...

GRACE: Hey...

SHERMAN: ... but not a third person.

GRACE: ... did you hear the other baby died of crib death?

SHERMAN: Well, I think your investigation you`re starting today may very well clear that up. I have every confidence in that.

GRACE: I certainly hope so. And to you, Greg Skordis, let`s talk about the death penalty. In Kentucky, as we all know, they have the death penalty. What aggravating circumstance do you believe the state will go on, or will they?

GREG SKORDIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ve looked at the Kentucky death penalty, and there are eight aggravating and eight mitigating circumstances that apply. And I can`t find, Nancy, any of the aggravating circumstances that would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in this case. That`s not to say that they`re going to get some slap on the hand because it`s still a capital offense and it`s still punishable by life in prison without parole...

GRACE: Well, Greg, when you say a capital offense -- I remember when I first started prosecuting, I saw things were a capital offense. Typically, the lay mind believes capital offense means death penalty. Not so anymore, since the Supreme Court originally reversed the death penalty many, many years ago, before reinstating it. We refer to things very often in the law as a capital offense, that does not necessarily mean it is death penalty-qualified.

SKORDIS: And in Kentucky, what it means, in fact, is that it`s punishable by the death penalty. It`s also punishable by life in prison without parole, and it`s punishable, if mitigating circumstances apply, with life in prison...

GRACE: Right.

SKORDIS: ... which can be assumed after a minimum of 25 years in prison, which is the very, very, very least that these people are likely to get.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, response?

CASAREZ: But you know, Nancy, law enforcement confirmed this afternoon with your producers that she had said that if she had to kill to get her baby, she would, and that was several weeks ago. And neighbors have said that she was saying that several weeks ago. So that could be a premeditation...

GRACE: Premeditation? Well, you know what, Jean? And back out to the other lawyers, Jean a lawyer, as well as a correspondent. To Mickey Sherman and Greg Skordis. I studied the Kentucky death penalty very carefully and have found one of the aggravating circumstances which I believe under the law applies, and that is when a murder occurs during a kidnapping. Now, the kidnapping here obviously, most obviously, of the baby. However, movement, any unwillful movement of that social worker and then her murder could qualify as a death penalty offense, Mickey Sherman.

SHERMAN: I think there`s a very strong likelihood that they will ask for the death penalty. The question to me is, Will it be both or just one? I`ve got to believe that right now, they are doing their damndest to flip one against the other to probably find out who pulled the trigger, who did the beating, whatever, who was the one who really caused the death.

GRACE: Well, you know where it`s going to go. The woman will claim the man talked her into it and he did the deed. They`ll flip her to testify against him.

SHERMAN: But it`s her daughter. You know, she`s got the horse in this race here, as opposed to the man.

GRACE: Yes, she really does.

Very quickly -- we`ll all be right back. Mickey Sherman and Greg Skordis joining us, as well as Jean Casarez, and a special guest, the FBI agent who took part in rescuing a 9-month-old baby boy stolen out of Kentucky, a social worker left dead on the floor in the wake.

Quickly to tonight`s "Case Alert." A shining star in the legal world, Staten Island defense attorney known for representing not only the wealthy but also the down and out, killed by a drunk driver, 41-year-old Larry Simon crossing a local street when a 24-year-old woman, Talea Taylor (ph), driving 100 mph on the wrong side of the road struck him with her car. He died instantly. That bright light is dimmed. Our thoughts tonight with his family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pair was arrested near Godfrey, Illinois, without incident. Any time there`s a kidnapping, obviously, the safety of the child is an issue. Law enforcement has always pulled out all the stops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, a miracle, the 9-month-old baby boy we told you about that was stolen from a state social worker in Kentucky has been found alive many miles away from home. These two in custody tonight, the baby fine, according to reports.

Back out to FBI special agent in charge of the recovery of this baby boy, Saige, FBI agent Weysan Dun. Sir, again, thank you for being with us. You know, when you see these cases over and over for, say, 20 years, you start believing that it may not turn out the way it did this time. Yes, we`ve lost the life of a social worker, but the recovery of this baby, in light of this couple`s history, is incredible.

Where was the baby in the little trailer home when it was recovered?

DUN: The baby was in the home, actually very well wrapped because as was indicated earlier, there was no heat, so the baby was bundled up and was really very quiet, despite, you know, the entry of the SWAT team and all this. So the baby was just right there in the trailer.

GRACE: And to former D.C. cop, former fed Mike Brooks. Mike, the murder victim`s purse found far away, as well.

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. It was found on I-64. And you saw how far the couple had traveled since -- you know, since the abduction and the murder of the- or alleged murder of the social worker. It`s good old- fashioned police work, Nancy, at its best. I think SAC Dun and his men and the other 50 officers that were there and apprehended these two criminals, they deserve praise for a job well done.

GRACE: Tell it, Mike!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter left with no shoes on her feet. I lay in my bed at night trying to sleep, wondering if my daughter`s feet are cold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, is there a break in the case of a missing girl, Michelle Bullard? As we speak, forensic remains are being tested to determine whether a skeleton found in a wooded area near Raleigh, North Carolina, is that of this girl. To Court TV`s Jean Casarez. How did we get to this point?

CASAREZ: Well, Nancy, it all started in January. She was abducted actually nine months ago. And Michelle was in a trailer home. She was watching a movie with three of her friends, and a masked gunman came in at gunpoint and threatened them all, and actually took the three friends and duct-taped them in the various rooms of the home, separating them. And when they finally got their tape off, they realized Michelle was gone. And she was never seen again. And now they`ve found remains that are in the forest in a very rural area. Actually, hunters, Nancy, found it. And so they`re forensically being tested right now.

GRACE: Now, what do we know about any possible suspects, Jean?

CASAREZ: Well, there was a possible suspect, and he actually committed suicide not long after the abduction, but it was a man by the name of David Earl Wilson (ph), who was actually located in a convenience store the day before, along with Michelle. Now, they weren`t together, but they were in that convenience store, and they believe that he maybe tracked her to that mobile home that night.

GRACE: As we go to air tonight, those remains are being forensically tested. Out to medical examiner Jonathan Arden. So far, all we know of is a skull. How can they tell that it is a female skull?

DR. JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The physical anthropology of the bones will tell the story about the age range, the gender, the possibly unique identifying features of the person whose bones you find. The skull is actually one of the two best things to find if you`re trying to identify things like age, race and sex, the pelvis being the other area that`s particularly important. The skull will have various bony prominences that are bigger in the male and smaller in the female, and that`s the kind of way that you can tell them apart.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michelle has the most beautiful smile, the most bubbly personality.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to find my daughter. I don`t care who, when and why; I just want my daughter back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Are remains that are being tested as we speak those of a young girl, Michelle Bullard? Let`s go out to Margaret Murchison. She is with WWGP and WFJA Radio. Welcome, Margaret.

MARGARET MURCHISON, WWGP AND WFJA RADIO: Hey, Nancy.

GRACE: Hey, dear. What else was found other than the skull?

MURCHISON: Well, I`m not certain. One of my sources, I guess close to the investigation, said something about the possibility of some clothing found that was possibly worn by Michelle, maybe on the night that she was abducted, and I believe there was a bra found. And of course, my information did come from sources that I`ve been talking to since, I think, I broke this story in January when it first happened, and I`ve been following it and talking with Karen basically at least once every two or three weeks.

GRACE: Margaret, where are the remains right now? Where are they being tested?

MURCHISON: They are at the state medical examiner`s office in Chapel Hill; at least that`s what I`m told by law enforcement. As a matter of fact, I did get a call this morning from Chief Deputy Kevin Bryant from the Lee County sheriff`s department who informed me that the person who was supposed to be testing the remains would not be able to come in until Saturday, so it would be late sometime tomorrow before the testing had been completed.

GRACE: The search has been going on now for months. Joining us, Margaret Murchison from WWGP and WFJA Radio. Back to Margaret. What clues make police think that these remains belong to Michelle Bullard?

MURCHISON: Well, Nancy, I`m not sure. I guess -- I`m not in law enforcement. I`m in the media. But I guess it`s because of so many coincidences. Some of Michelle`s items were found very close to that area during previous searches. I think her wallet and other items were found.

And you know, Nancy, what I think is really -- well, maybe not strange or coincidental, but my co-worker, Audrey Mason (ph) and I, started checking maps yesterday when I received information that the remains, those remains, had been found. And I thought it was very interesting that she was allegedly abducted from a mobile home on Bragby Road (ph), which is very close to Nursery Road, which is in Harnett County.

So we immediately started checking the map, and we discovered that from Nursery Road to the area where the remains were found on Wednesday was about a one-hour, 24-minute drive, and it was about 39 miles to be exact. I mean, from Nursery Road, it takes you to NC 2487, going toward Cumberland County. And then you go onto Bragg Boulevard (ph).

And then, as you matter of fact, then you end up, when it`s all over, you are at Taber Church Road (ph). And according to David Tanner, who is the public information officer with the Cumberland County sheriff`s department, the remains were found at Johnson Road and Taber Church Road, which is very close to the other areas that the searches have occurred since Michelle has disappeared.

GRACE: With us, Margaret Murchison. She is with WWGP and WFJA Radios. You know, the whole scenario under which Michelle Bullard was taken, highly unusual. I mean, you`ve got several people inside a tiny, tiny space. Nobody sees a perpetrator, a masked perpetrator come in. They all get tied up. And then after they manage to extricate themselves from bondage, they realize Michelle Bullard is gone? How did that work, Margaret?

MURCHISON: I don`t know. That`s always been a puzzle to me.

GRACE: Me, too.

MURCHISON: And Karen and I have talked about that repeatedly. You know, how did somebody just walk in? Were they sitting, watching movies, and they had the doors open, the doors were not locked? Did the person have a key? You know, just how did that person just walk into that mobile home with that many people watching television?

GRACE: And nobody saw a thing.

MURCHISON: Nobody saw anything. I understand they did see somebody - - at least they thought, somebody thought they saw somebody, thought they could recognize somebody. And I understand he tied everybody up with duct tape in separate rooms.

GRACE: And how does one person overpower so many...

MURCHISON: That many people.

GRACE: Yes.

And, you know, joining us right now is a special guest tonight. Joining us out of Raleigh, North Carolina, as we wait for a determination on these remains, Michelle Bullard`s mother is with us, Karen Riojas.

I want to thank you for being with us.

KAREN RIOJAS, MOTHER OF MICHELLE BULLARD: Thank you, Nancy, for having me.

GRACE: When did you first learn police thought they had discovered remains?

RIOJAS: I received a phone call Wednesday afternoon about 3:40. And it was the Lee County sheriff`s department saying that they would like to speak with me. And me and Michelle`s father met at the sheriff`s office at the same time, and we went in. And we were told that a skull had been found in Cumberland County, and that`s all they knew. It was found by a hunter who was out hunting, and they did tell us that it was in a thick area of woods.

Once I did get home from that briefing, I did receive another phone call. And I was asked the brassiere size of Michelle in that, apparently, a brassiere had been located in and around the area that the skull had been located. They also asked for dental records at that time, and I did take them back up to the sheriff`s office.

I didn`t hear anything until the next morning when they were headed back out to this remote area, which is -- I have heard today -- my mother informed me that it has been said that this is alligator swamp area.

But it is -- as Margaret said, it is a coincidence that all of these, Michelle`s pocketbook and wallet and the other victims in the mobile home`s billfolds and wallets were also found within a four- to five-mile area of where these remains were found.

But going back as to how one person comes in and subdues four people, Nancy, it`s called a gun. And it was dark, and they were watching a movie. One of them was asleep. They were just sitting, watching television. In our area, it`s just unheard of that a masked gunman comes in, and robs you, and ties you up, and then leaves with one of you.

And unfortunately for Michelle, here it is, 9 1/2 months later. You know, she has not been located, Nancy, and I want her found. If this remains are Michelle, then, you know, let`s give her the proper burial that she deserves, because every human deserves a proper burial.

But if it`s not Michelle, then I`m not giving up hope, and I`m not giving up the fight, Nancy, in finding her, in that she is out there somewhere. Since day one, I have tried to be an advocate for Michelle. I don`t know why Michelle was chosen. I don`t know why anyone would be chosen, but it has definitely been a devastating, horrific, torturing year for me and my family.

And if this does bring some closure to, you know, Michelle, you know, unfortunately, I will have to face that, Nancy. But I have had many, many long nights and days to think about it. And if I could just go back, of course, I would do many things differently. I guess we all would, if we, for one more day, so...

GRACE: What would you do differently?

RIOJAS: Oh, Nancy, I work too hard. Of course, when my children were small, my life was centered totally around my children, but of course, as they get bigger, they don`t need Mama as much as they once did. And Michelle was a 23-year-old, independent female, who, you know, paid her own bills, had her own car, had her own job. And, you know, she had her own life, also, Nancy.

And I think I would have just cherished some more, I guess, of my free time and not be so busy caught up in my own life. But, Nancy, I do appreciate you not letting go. You told me one time you were not going to let this go.

GRACE: Ms. Riojas, we`re all standing by hoping, hoping that this is not Michelle. And I can assure you of one thing. It is simple Trial 101: Statute of limitations on murder, however long it may take, no matter how much time passes, Mrs. Riojas, murder has no statute of limitations. A prosecution can still be brought 20 years from now.

We`ll be on this Monday night. Thank you, Karen.

RIOJAS: Thank you.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCHER: What is Trenton wearing, honey?

MELINDA DUCKETT, LATE MOTHER OF TRENTON DUCKETT: I don`t know. He was ready for bed. I know who frickin` did it.

GRACE: Why aren`t you telling us and giving us a clear picture of where you were before your son was kidnapped?

M. DUCKETT: Because I`m not going to put those kind of details out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

JOSH DUCKETT, FATHER OF TRENTON DUCKETT: I just want my son back. I mean, that`s my goal. He`s my pride and joy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We still want the picture of Trenton in the news, and it`s very important that we keep his picture out there. We`ve got to know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And a parent`s worst nightmare: a 2-year-old boy tucked into his crib, mom in the next room with a video. Then she says the window screen slashed, baby Trenton gone. Almost immediately, police say Melinda Duckett, the prime suspect.

Tonight, Trenton`s dad takes step one, launching his own search with the official opening of Team Trenton Headquarters. Joining us, Trenton`s father, Josh Duckett.

Josh, thank you for being with us. Why have you decided to launch your own search?

J. DUCKETT: I mean, obviously, law enforcement`s had to scale down some, and they`re not getting as many tips coming into the phone lines at the police department. So by us opening our own headquarters, and phone lines, and e-mail accounts so that people can e-mail us tips, call us and stuff, it gives another option for people to call us and give us the tips directly without having to contact law enforcement, because, I mean, through my dealings with law enforcement, I`ve realized that they can be intimidating quite a bit and they intimidate a lot of people. And by them being able to contact us, they don`t have to directly contact law enforcement, so it eliminates some of that intimidation.

GRACE: The command center phone number, 1-877-TRENT-65 or www.helpfindtrenton.com.

Josh, you believe that there is a very strong possibility your baby was either sold or taken, possibly with the help of your ex-wife, Melinda. Why do you still believe he is alive?

J. DUCKETT: I mean, I`ve believed all along that he`s alive and he`s out there. And part of that comes from just me knowing Melinda and knowing the way that she works, and how she plays games, and everything like that. And then the fact of the letters that she left behind, the way that they were worded and how they stated that the reason she was doing it -- the reason she committed suicide was because, even after Trenton`s found, she wouldn`t be a good mother to him.

And then the fact of the other one stated, "As he grows up," so, I mean, those were two key things that gave us clues that he`s possibly still out there and alive and well. And we just -- we`ve got to keep that hope alive and keep moving forward in order to find him, because there`s still no word on him yet.

GRACE: Well, social services agreed. DFCS has taken the baby away from the mom several times, regarding her being a good or bad mom.

Out to psychologist Caryn Stark. Caryn, I know that you hear Josh. You`ve been on the case from the very beginning, as well. Is it wishful thinking that Trenton`s still alive? Do parents typically do this?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think that it`s really important for him to keep thinking this, Nancy. He`s not going to give up hope until he finds out otherwise, and that`s good. It`s good for him to have hope; it`s good for him to be active and be involved in this and feel like he`s doing something, because he will never have complete closure, not when it comes to a child.

GRACE: And Caryn Stark, is it common for feuding parents to use the child as a bargaining chip? I mean, allegedly, Melinda Duckett would call Josh on the phone and make the baby cry in order to get whatever particular thing it was that she wanted.

STARK: It often happens. It`s really unfortunate, Nancy. We`d rather not see that, but it really does happen. And they`re trying to get even with the spouse, so they take advantage of the child. The child becomes the go-between.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers, Mickey Sherman and Greg Skordas. To you, Mickey Sherman. If in fact this child was sold, a, what would the charges be against the people that have Trenton? And, b, do you think they`ll ever surface?

SHERMAN: As his dad says, I would only hope so, and I think it`s good advice to keep that hope alive. The charges: kidnapping. I`m sure there`s any number of slavery laws involved. And I`ll tell you, I`m curious, Nancy -- and I wonder if you could ask him -- how has law enforcement treated his idea of going a little bit private here? Have they welcomed that? Do they resent it?

GRACE: Good question. What about it, Josh? How do police feel about you starting your own search?

J. DUCKETT: They`ve more than supported me with it. I mean, they agree with it totally. We get the calls; we get the tips; we make copies of everything that comes in; and we take them straight to law enforcement and let them check them out.

GRACE: Out to Greg Skordas, defense attorney joining us out of Salt Lake City, Greg, what about the theory of immunity, that if someone does have the baby, if they would bring Trenton back with the guarantee of complete immunity?

SKORDAS: That`s worth a tremendous amount to the father and to the surviving family, and that would be worth a lot to police, obviously. And you hate to do that if somebody`s bought or sold a child and taken it and then had it away from its family now for almost two full months, but you`d almost, as law enforcement or as a prosecutor, take any steps you could to get that child back, including potentially giving a bad person immunity for doing that.

GRACE: Man, I would do it in a heartbeat. What about it, Josh? Would you agree to give the person that may have the baby immunity in exchange for getting Trenton back?

J. DUCKETT: One hundred percent. I mean, my goal through this is to bring my son home to me and have him back safe with us. I mean, I`m not looking to put anyone in jail. I mean...

GRACE: You just want the baby.

J. DUCKETT: ... I want my son back.

GRACE: Here in the studios with us, Jean Casarez, who has just come from central Florida. Jean, I kept asking everybody I knew to ask, have the local dump sites been checked? What have you learned?

CASAREZ: You know, I don`t think they have. We haven`t heard that there ever was a search at a landfill area, and we know that she put quite a bit in dumpsters.

But Nancy, in central Florida -- it`s a large area, and I was there for six weeks -- everybody is concerned about Josh and Trenton, and they`re talking about it. And people are asking me anywhere would he be found. And, you know, Nancy, I would go in stores in the last six weeks in central Florida. I`d look at every child in the store, because it`s an individual citizen that can help in this situation. Just like the neighborhood watch program, it`s a citizen that can look and see and go to law enforcement.

GRACE: And, Josh, quickly, is it true that someone tried to sell you Trenton`s -- a Web site with Trenton`s full name on it? Someone had already grabbed it?

J. DUCKETT: Yes.

GRACE: Man, that takes a lot of nerve!

J. DUCKETT: That`s what I said. I mean, people buy up Web sites that they think are going to be popular names, and then, when the people or the family tries to get that name, they try and actually sell it to them for a big lump sum of money.

GRACE: How much do they want?

J. DUCKETT: I`m not sure of that, how much they had wanted for it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: The man charged as the chief suspect in the disappearance of a 21-year-old Vermont college coed in court denying any and all involvement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The formal charges accuse Rooney of twice assaulting the same girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those sound like trumped-up charges just to hold him in custody.

GRACE: So your defense says, "They`re all made up"?

Tonight, music icon Michael Jackson allegedly buys his kids back. Is that even legal?

HARVEY LEVIN, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ.COM: This always felt like what she wanted here was some cold, hard cash. She got it.

GRACE: Tonight, another deadly school attack. I guess in addition to pecking at P.B. and J., you could take one of these to school now, especially in Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two young men involved in a verbal altercation that turned physical, that turned tragic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The key is preventing, not talking about it after some kid has been stabbed. And, yes, they`ve got to put metal detectors in these schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just -- I`m offended. I just was returning a flashlight to her, and I called (INAUDIBLE) nursing on her body.

GRACE: Murder in paradise. What will the theory be? Because you`ve got the defendant`s DNA, his sperm and his saliva on the body. So what`s he going to argue?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s going to say, "I had consensual sex with her, but I didn`t kill her."

J. DUCKETT: My name`s Joshua Duckett. I`m the father of Trenton Duckett. The name of the center is Team Trenton Headquarters.

GRACE: Trenton`s dad takes step number one, launching his own search with the official opening of Team Trenton Headquarters.

We go live to Kentucky. Police searching desperately for a 9-month- old baby boy, apparently stolen from a state social worker. A grandmother- turned-social worker found brutally beaten to death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been a rough four days for us. We were very worried about the child, too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: What a way to end the week. That baby, Saige, found alive.

Tonight, we remember Navy Petty Officer Second Class Michael Monsoor, 25, Garden Grove, California. A Navy SEAL, he gave his life throwing himself on a grenade to save others. He was awarded the Silver Star, loved his family and watching his younger brother play college football at the state university. Michael Monsoor, American hero.

Thank you to our guests and to you for being with us tonight and this week. Nancy Grace, signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, goodnight, friend.

END