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Will Upsurge in Violence Change Strategy in Iraq?; Creating Federal Regions in Iraq; Broken Government; Search at WTC

Aired October 23, 2006 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, again, everyone. You're with CNN. You're informed.
I'm Tony Harris.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Heidi Collins.

Watch as developments keep coming into the NEWSROOM on this Monday, October 23rd. Here now is what is on the rundown.

Dividing Iraq: Is that the way to end violence and bring some peace and harmony to the war-torn nation? A Mideast policy expert weighs in.

HARRIS: Five years after 9/11, remains discovered near Ground Zero. Why it took so long to find them and what's being done to look for more.

COLLINS: And packing a punch. Hurricane Paul gaining strength and taking aim at Baja. We're tracking its movements this hour in the NEWSROOM.

HARRIS: Let's start there with Hurricane Paul.

Chad Myers is in the weather center with the very latest -- Chad.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Tony, this will be the third major hurricane that will have affected Cabo San Lucas this year. And talk about an active year, they may get one storm every three years in the year that the U.S. and the Gulf Coast really has picked up nothing. Completely different categories here because one storm is not there, this storm actually is.

Warm water developing, warm water getting the storm larger and larger here off the coast of the Pacific. Winds right now are 110 miles per hour. By tomorrow morning, for a while, and overnight tonight, maybe 115. And that's here between these two dots where it turns into a Category 3 major hurricane.

Then it gets into some shear, some tearing apart of the wind, some tearing apart of the storm. And by the time it actually makes landfall, maybe 90, 80 or 70 miles pour hour. The more shear, the slower the storm will be. The less shear, the more it will hold together.

Notice how close it is to Cabo. Cabo right there on the tip of Baja, California, there.. And they don't need any more winds. They've already had quite a bit of damage in San Jose Del Cabo, which is the main town that is just to the east of the resort town of Cabo San Lucas proper.

So a Category 2 now, headed to Category 3 by tonight.

HARRIS: OK, Chad. We know you'll watch it for us. Appreciate it. Thank you.

MYERS: I sure will.

COLLINS: Will the upsurge in violence force the Bush administration to change strategy in Iraq? The president met this weekend with his top brass.

Let's go live now to the White House and CNN's Kathleen Koch.

Good morning, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Heidi.

Just a few minutes ago we reporters got a readout from Tony Snow, the press secretary for the White House, about that briefing, the meeting that the White House -- excuse me, the president had here at the White House on Saturday. He said it was one of his -- his normal meetings, normal briefing on Iraq. And the White House really hasn't announced any major initiatives, any change in strategy were taken at that meeting.

Also, a lot of discussion at the so-called gaggle this morning with Tony Snow about this report in "The New York Times" that implied basically that the Bush administration was upping the pressure on Iraq, setting some benchmarks that they would have to achieve when it comes to reducing sectarian violence, taking more control over securing the country, or the U.S. would change its military strategy there. And Snow said that that was not the case.

He wasn't setting any deadlines, issuing any kind of ultimatums. He said, "We haven't said, 'You don't do this, we're going to walk out on you.'"

And this morning, counselor to the president, Dan Bartlett, also took issue with the article's thesis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN BARTLETT, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR: It is appropriate to have benchmarks and milestones. I think the story was a little bit overwritten by claiming this was a new strategy. This is something that we've been working for months with the Iraqi government on, both on the security front, as I mentioned earlier, and on the political front, because it's important that the Iraqi government have very understandable goals for them to reach over the period of the coming months. And we have been negotiating with them to discuss what exactly those goals and milestones would look like.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: Now, Bartlett did, though, explain that those -- those ongoing benchmarks will "very much influence the thinking when it comes to U.S. military strategy in Iraq." But he said that would still be decided by U.S. commanders who would base those decisions upon conditions on the ground -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Kathleen, can you tell us any more about one of these comments that was made by a State Department official, remarking that there was arrogance and stupidity in Iraq?

KOCH: That was from an interview with Al-Jazeera by the director of public diplomacy for the Bureau of Near Asian affairs. Alberto Fernandez, over the weekend, what he said exactly is, "We tried to do our best, but I think there's much room for criticism because undoubtedly, there was arrogance and there was stupidity from the United States in Iraq."

Well, apparently, Mr. Fernandez has looked at his remarks over the weekend, has decided that they were not correct. He has apologized for them.

We asked Tony Snow about that, and he pointed the same thing out, that Mr. Fernandez had apologized. We asked him, "Does he still have a job?" And he said, yes, he does.

COLLINS: Well, let bygones be bygones. All right.

Kathleen Koch, thanks so much.

KOCH: You bet.

COLLINS: Is it divide and conquer in Iraq or divide and collapse into more chaos? The bitter debate over the creation of federal regions, we'll explain it all to you just a little bit later in the NEWSROOM.

HARRIS: Nuclear concerns about Iran on the table this morning as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice sat down with Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency. Rice is getting a status check from ElBaradei, ahead of this week's Security Council meeting.

The council may consider a draft resolution imposing limited sanctions on Iran for refusing to halt uranium enrichment. Iran says its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes. The U.S. believes the Iranians are trying to build a bomb.

COLLINS: Not all of the work doing on at Ground Zero in New York is about rebuilding, unfortunately. We'll tell you what has sparked new anger among the victims' families.

That's ahead in the NEWSROOM.

HARRIS: Tires right for cars, wrong for reefs. How plans to remove them change the shifting seas. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: More bloodshed in Iraq. Eleven U.S. troops killed this weekend alone, bringing the military's October death toll to 86. That is the highest of any month this year. For Iraqi civilians it's even deadlier. Sectarian violence has skyrocketed during the holy month of Ramadan.

Add to that U.S. hopes of getting Shiites and Sunnis to form a unity government appear to be falling apart. Bitter debate is raging over plans to create federal regions. Kurds would get the north, Shiites the south, and Sunnis would be isolated without oil in the central part of the country.

Ken Pollack is research director of the Brookings Institution's Saban Center, and he's joining us now live to discuss this divide.

Thanks so much for being with us, Ken.

It's an interesting question, is it not, the idea of federalism? But not just any federalism. It seems there needs to be the exact right kind in order to succeed in Iraq.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTE: Well, that's just it, Heidi. You get everyone in Iraq talking about federalism. Everyone agrees that there ought to be federalism. But when you talk to people about what federalism means, every Iraqi seems to have a completely different definition of federalism.

For some, like the Kurds, it means just about independence. For others, most of the Sunni population, and actually probably the biggest chunk of the Shia population as well, it would probably mean a much more limited form of independence from the central government, much more like the American states system. And the problem is that no one can agree on where to draw the line between those -- those different variations.

COLLINS: Yes. And as we look at the map when we pull that up, we can see that maybe one of the dangers here is obviously the location of the Kurds in the north with the oil reserves.

A chance of them sort of just breaking away from Iraq altogether?

POLLACK: Sure. That's been in the cards for a very long time. There's been real concern that the Kurds clearly want to become independent some day. They are their own nation, they're not Arabs. They've always seen themselves as a part of Iraq, and they would like to -- as you point out, they do have some of Iraq's oil reserves, although actually most of Iraq's oil reserves are in the south.

And the biggest fear, of course, is that the Sunnis fear that if the Kurds break away that the Shia will want to do the same in the south with most of Iraq's oil. COLLINS: So maybe we should talk a little bit, then, Ken, about -- about what should be under control as far as the local government and then the federal government. Who needs to control what?

POLLACK: Well, again, it really does depend on your model, and different people do have models. I think that what the U.S. government is pushing and what I think most moderate Sunnis and moderate Shia are pressing for is a system where the federal government keeps control over defense, over foreign policy, over the collection of oil revenues and the maintenance system, and does some of the distribution of the oil revenues but allows a lot of the power and a lot of the financing to devolve to the provinces themselves.

And, you know, you put up that map. It's very easy to put these clear lines on a map like that.

COLLINS: Sure. But they're not really there, are they?

POLLACK: That's the point, is the fact of the matter is that Iraq is a deeply divided country. About one-third to almost 40 percent of Iraqis live in heavily mixed areas. And we should remember that Iraq is, in fact, a very integrated society. There are tons and tons of mixed Iraqi marriages, Sunni, Shia. I can't tell you how many Iraqi friends of mine call themselves Sushis (ph), meaning that they are half Sunni, half Shia.

Where would those people go in this kind of a situation?

COLLINS: But it is a little bit surprising, isn't it, that just a while ago, the Iraq Shiite parliament actually did pass the legislation that would create federal regions? Surprising to you that they passed this law?

POLLACK: Not particularly because, again, what they passed was a blanket law about federalism, which is something that's been on the books going back about two and a half years at this point in time. There's been a general agreement that Iraq needs to move in the direction of federalism. But as I pointed out before, there's a big gap between what groups like the Kurds and one or two Shia leaders who really want independence are pushing for, and the vast majority of Iraqis who want a system, as I said, much more like the American system, where you have states that have some degree of freedom from the government but a central government that also has a lot of power and a lot of sway over what goes on in people's lives.

COLLINS: Any chance that type of system will actually be implemented someday and that it will indeed work -- $64,000 question, right?

POLLACK: Exactly. You know, anything's possible in Iraq. There's a lot of good. There's also obviously a lot of bad.

I'll put it this way, if we make reconstruction work, if we wind up in a situation in five or 10 or 15 years, where Iraq is stable and unified, I think you undoubtedly have a federal system. It's the only thing that is going to work in Iraq. But, like everything, I'm just not certain at this point in time that we're going to see that stable federal system in Iraq at any point in the next five, 10, 15 years.

COLLINS: Well, Ken Pollack, it is always a pleasure to talk with you from the Brookings Institute.

Thanks so much, ken.

POLLACK: Thank you, Heidi.

HARRIS: America voters in a sour mood as the midterm elections approach. At least that's what the polls seem to be suggesting. Those elections two weeks from tomorrow. At stake, control of Congress.

All week long CNN is putting the spotlight on the corridors of power in Washington. What's broken and how do we fix it?

In the spotlight today, the short congressional work week.

Here's CNN Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM DASCHLE, FMR. SENATOR: Senator Lott and I used to joke that if we really wanted everybody here for every important vote, the only time we could actually schedule it was Wednesday afternoon.

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Congress has become the Tuesday through Thursday club, with lawmakers enjoying a work schedule most Americans can only dream of, pulling in $165,000 for what's essentially become a part-time job.

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: You're looking good, girl. Keep those arms moving now.

HENRY: Former majority leader Trent Lott recalls senators routinely lining up in front of his office begging for their four-day weekends.

LOTT: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. They just -- "Oh, please, let me get out of here on Thursday night. I'd rather stay until midnight on Thursday so I can catch the 7:30 flight out." Or, "Please don't have votes after about 7:30 so I can catch that." And some of them would get pretty aggressive about it.

HENRY: A recent "New York Times" poll found most Americans can't name a single major piece of legislation that made its way through this Congress. Social Security reform, didn't happen. Tougher immigration laws, nope. Tighter ethics standards, not a chance.

In the 1960s and '70s, Congress met an average of 161 days a year. In the '80s and '90s, that number dropped to 139 days. This year, Congress will probably end up working just about 100 days.

DAN ROSTENKOWSKI (D), FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: It isn't a legislative process anymore. Work one day a week, work a day and a half a week? I mean, it's crazy. It's just crazy. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Ed Henry now joining us from New York.

Ed, good to see you, first of all. And a couple of questions.

You know, folks seem to want change if you look at these polls. But what in fact does change if the Democrats gain control of Congress?

HENRY: Well, that is the big question, you know. If the Democrats take back the House, for example, Nancy Pelosi will become the speaker of the House. And she'll have a lot riding on that, because she can no longer just throw bricks at President Bush.

In the final two years, the Democrats would finally be on the griddle, and they would have to prove they could change this, that they're going to work harder, that they're going to actually produce legislative results. And they're going to shake some things up.

Remember, the Republicans promised to do that in '94. That's one of the questions now, as to whether they have really changed things for the better.

Democrats, though, would have to prove that they're going to change things. And I think given that sour mood out there, if the Democrats did nothing in the next two years, and if -- it's a big "if" -- they take back the majority and do nothing in the next two years but beat up on President Bush, they're probably going to pay a price as well.

HARRIS: Yes. Ed, and to what extent is the public's unhappiness with Congress driven by the scandals from Jefferson to Ney to Duke Cunningham to Foley?

HENRY: Oh, I think it's a big part. And you're right to point out that it's both sides of the aisle.

I mean, Bill Jefferson, a Democrat. They found $09,000 in cash in his freezer, allegedly bribes. He insists no wrongdoing. He hasn't been charged with anything.

You mentioned Bob Ney. You go down the list.

The bottom line is, how did we get to this point? Well, when Democrats ran Congress for 40 years, they had all kinds of scandals. You saw Dan Rotsenkowski at the end of my piece there. He ended up going to jail. Let's not forget there were plenty of Democratic scandals as well.

But the Republicans in '94 said they were going to clean the place up. And one conservative activist I said -- I talked to said basically here's the problem: A lot of conservatives go to Washington feeling that it's a cesspool and they wind up thinking it's a hot tub.

HARRIS: How much is a congressperson making now? I know we can't get minimum wage increased, but what is a congressperson making now, Ed?

HENRY: About $165,200, I think, per year. A lot of people wondering about the light schedule.

I know some lobbyists who like to joke and tell this joke, "What do members in Congress whisper to each other on Wednesdays? Have a good weekend."

And so when they have these short work weeks, people wonder about how much they're making. Certainly $165,000 is a lot of money to a lot of people.

HARRIS: CNN's congressional correspondent, Ed Henry, for us.

Ed, good to see you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

And tonight on CNN, something you won't want to miss. As part of our "Broken Government" series this weekend, Ed Henry takes a closer look at the so-called do-nothing Congress. It's coming up at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, and it's something you'll see only on CNN.

COLLINS: Disturbing discoveries at the World Trade Center. About 18 different remains were found there, human remains, after September 11th, as you know, well over five years ago when the event happened. They were found in manholes in utility areas there.

That search continues. You see some activity at the site right now. We'll tell you more about that coming up.

HARRIS: And talking strategy. With violence in Iraq skyrocketing, is it time to change directions? A retired army general weighs in straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: From Chicago, an early-morning warehouse fire creates a commuter nightmare. The fire prompted a shutdown of some of Chicago's commuter trains just as the early morning rush was getting started. The train service got back on track just after about 7:00 this morning. At this hour, the fire is contained. There have been no reports of injuries.

More than five years after the terrorist attacks in New York, a new search for human remains. That search at Ground Zero going on right now.

CNN Senior Correspondent Allan Chernoff joins us live from New York now.

And Allan, we heard from Mayor Bloomberg just a moment ago. Tell us where exactly these remains are being found.

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SR. CORRESPONDENT: Tony, these are more than 100 remains that have been uncovered, 18 alone yesterday in manholes and also utility crawlspaces. And this is on the west side of the World Trade Center site. In fact, immediately underneath the very spot where memorial services have been held every September 11th since the attack.

Now, all of this happened just last week as construction crews were working at the site. They were beginning to build a tunnel underneath West Street. That's the street on the west side of the World Trade Center. And what happened, they found a few remains, had them looked at. Really a shocking discovery.

How could it possibly have happened? Well, in 2002, as the recovery effort was continuing at Ground Zero, what happened was construction crews actually paved over this area of West Street, paved over the manholes, and everyone simply forgot about it until last Thursday.

Some of the family members of victims who were killed in the trade center tragedy now are calling for an end to construction at the site. But Mayor Bloomberg this morning said no.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (R), NEW YORK: We're not going to shut down any construction. Where construction is taking place are on sites that have been thoroughly gone through and excavated. And we have to build for the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Over 1,100 victims, more than 40 percent of those who perished in the tragedy, have never had any of their remains identified -- Tony.

HARRIS: Allan, do we have any idea what the scope of the new search for remains is likely to be?

CHERNOFF: There are 12 spots underground that the city has identified, spots that previously had not been searched for. So they're going to be looking there. In addition, Tony, there are two buildings adjacent to the trade center site that were looked at but not combed through. And it is very possible that there are remains in those two buildings as well. One of them is owned by the City University of New York.

HARRIS: OK.

CNN's Allan Chernoff for us in New York.

Allan, thank you.

Talking strategy. With violence in Iraq skyrocketing, is it time to change direction? A retired Army general weighs in, in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Live in the CNN NEWSROOM, Heidi Collins and Tony Harris.

COLLINS: A grim milestone in Iraq. October is now the deadliest month for U.S. forces this year. Eighty-six troops have died there this month, 11 this weekend alone.

CNN's John Roberts is embedded with troops in Taji, just north of Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That surpasses the 76 who were killed in April of 2004. And it puts it on track to be the deadliest month of this engagement so far, on track to surpass the record that was set back in November of 2004 during that massive battle for Falluja.

We spent some time over the weekend with the 1st Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division. It's been a particularly tough month for them. They've lost at least 15 men, most of those to those improvised explosive devices, the roadside bombs, which continue to be the major threat to U.S. forces here.

The U.S. forces are also facing a growing problem with the sectarian violence that threatens to envelop the entire country. It started in Baghdad, but now it's spreading. The area of operations that we're in, the Camp Taji services, is about a 500 square mile area north of Baghdad. There are towns that are predominantly Sunni, towns that are predominantly Shiite, towns that are mixed.

Those towns now can't really say that they're at war with each other, but certainly the tensions are much greater than they were before. But there are some mixed villages now that are either empty because the militias have decided to make that their battleground, or Shiites are pushing Sunnis out, Sunnis are pushing Shiites out.

It's a particularly difficult challenge for the U.S. military to engage and to solve as well because this is not something that they were trained for. They were trained for frontal assault, to deal with an enemy, not to get in the middle of this sectarian violence. So what they do is they try to spend a lot of times in these towns and villages talking to the elders, talking to other people there, saying, what do you need?

And what we keep hearing from all of these people, the ones, at least, who are not trying to foment the violence, not the radical elements, but the normal towns folk is, they need more security. And the problem is, that in the Sunni towns, they don't trust the Iraqi police. They don't trust the Ministry of the Interior. And the Shiites, on the other hand, think that the Sunnis are always trying to attack them.

So this is a particularly difficult challenge for the U.S. military, one that it appears the current plan may not be able to solve. Major General William Caldwell, the chief spokesman for the Multinational Forces here, said last week that they are disappointed, dismayed with the amount of violence that continues in Baghdad despite this clear hold and build strategy that they've been engaging in for the last couple of months, that the strategy needs reviewing. Perhaps it needs changing altogether.

That big meeting at the White House over the weekend failed to come up with any definitive plan. The people on the ground here, Iraqis, are desperate for some sort of change and that's something that the U.S. military will urgently need to address in the weeks to come.

John Roberts, CNN, at Camp Taji with the U.S. forces.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Death toll rising -- American military deaths in Iraq at their highest level, sectarian attacks on civilians surging -- is it time to change course?

Joining us now from Washington to talk strategy, CNN military analyst, retired Brigadier General James "Spider" Marks.

Spider, always good to see you. Thank you, sir.

BRIG. GEN. JAMES MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Tony, how are you?

HARRIS: Great, great. I want you to listen to General Grange. He was with us on Friday and again over the weekend -- on Friday when things were getting a little crazy in Amara. But here he is talking about the weekend meeting. You had the top military leadership talking with the top civilian leadership. I don't expect that there will be much difference in your opinions here, but maybe you can expand on some of the things David Grange had to say over the weekend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, U.S. ARMY (RET.): It's really not an unusual meeting but the thing is that they know that there has to be some type of change. There has to be something to be done with the militias, something to be done with the way forward, because right now, the status quo, troop on troop, attrition-type war is just going to continue to have casualties and continue to reduce America's resolve to stay in the fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: So, Spider, are we on the verge of a major course correction in Iraq?

MARKS: I don't know that there's going to be a major course correction. And, Tony, what needs to be described -- and David did a great job of explaining it -- is that clearly there has to be some changes. But let's walk through what those changes need to look like.

First of all, does the strategy work? Now, the strategy is, are we going in the right direction? Are we trying to help the Iraqis achieve some form of representative government? And then you've got to kind of march it down and say, OK, what are the policies that would lead to that or what are the operational, military missions that would help facilitate that? And then you get into tactics.

So I would tell you that the operational missions to clear, hold and build need to be -- that needs to be fixed, and here's why. First of all, you have the capacity in Iraq to clear. You can clear with the forces on the ground. You can clear with the JDAM. You can clear kinetically, and you can clear with forces on the ground.

The challenge is, do you have the capacity, the size, to hold? And you don't. You don't have enough forces on the ground to hold what it is you're trying to hold. So if you're not going to increase the number of forces, then how do you have the right number of forces, the appropriate force distribution, in the location that's critical? And that's where you get to the discussion of Baghdad.

HARRIS: Spider, Spider, Spider, Spider ...

MARKS: That was four Spiders. That was four Spiders.

HARRIS: Yes, it was. Here's what's coming. We had this big meeting over the weekend, top military leadership, sitting down, talking to the top political leadership, civilian leadership. Did they hear what you just said? I have heard from so many people now that we need more boots on the ground, so why don't we have more boots on the ground?

MARKS: Well, the point is, how do you define the ground? And that's -- before you gave me the four Spiders, I was trying to define, you know, if Baghdad is the center of gravity -- and I think we would argue that it is. And in military terms what that means is, you have got to make a difference there because as goes Baghdad goes the rest of the country. If you can draw that parallel, then you're good to go.

So you've got to have sufficient presence on the ground in Baghdad to make a difference. Frankly, there isn't enough. So you have one of two choices. You either really jam it in there, you have clear mission statements, clear lines of delineation so you don't fratricide and people banging into each other, or you let it go the way that it's going to go and you back out. But you can't continue to do what's being done right now.

HARRIS: So what -- if you were in the room, what would you be saying?

MARKS: I told you, Tony. But that's a hypothetical. I mean, I'm not in the room, but I'm trying to provide some clarity to the kinds of discussions that will take place in a room like that. You have to create a strategy, a strategy that says, OK, these parts of Iraq are critical. We must not let them go into total and complete chaos.

HARRIS: But here's where I'm going to push you on this a little bit. I mean, you are military. We're sitting here talking to a man, a retired brigadier general. You have watched over the years now these valued members of the military go in there and struggle with keeping this peace and trying to establish peace there. You have a view as to what the next line should be here moving forward. What do you think?

MARKS: Tony, I just shared it with you.

HARRIS: So more people on the ground ...

MARKS: In those critical areas.

HARRIS: ...in those critical areas.

MARKS: Absolutely. And there are implementing tactics as well, but those are not strategies. I mean, the tactics are, can you afford to put a U.S. company in with an Iraqi unit to really give it a foundation of strength and a reach capability and all the capabilities that the United States brings to bear in combat.

Are you putting the best and brightest into the function of training the Iraqi forces? I would argue we are. But that needs a lot more focus, because that's the bellwether, that's the measure of success. If you have one soldier on the ground, whether it's Iraqi, U.S. or coalition, to 50 of the population and you can sustain that, so a 25 million-person country, you need about 600,000 forces on the ground. We're not there.

HARRIS: Beautiful. Beautiful. That helps it. Spider, we appreciate it. That was good. Thank you.

MARKS: Thank, Tony.

HARRIS: Thanks for your time.

COLLINS: Coming up next, we'll be talking with the Iraqi deputy prime minister about the situation in Iraq, increased violence, although he has just said the coalition must not cut and run. We'll get his thoughts and the reasons why right after this.

HARRIS: And surviving breast cancer, does race make a difference? That's coming up.

You're watching CNN, the most trust name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Is breast cancer different in African-American women than in women of other races? In our "Daily Dose" this morning, a new study suggesting that it is. Researchers at the University of Texas compared the records of black, Hispanic and white breast cancer patients. They found that black women overall had more aggressive tumors and were more likely to die than Hispanic and white women.

Estrogen receptor negative, or E.R. negative tumors, they were the hardest to treat. They are not fed by the hormone estrogen, and the most successful breast cancer drugs on the market are not effective in treating them. Breast cancer is the second highest cause of cancer death in U.S. women each year. Two hundred eleven thousand American women are diagnosed with it, 40,000 of them die. That is according to the American Cancer Society.

HARRIS: You know, you've heard of the Freshman 15, haven't you? You go to college, pack on an extra 15 pounds in your first year? Researchers say not so. Two new studies indicate students are gaining less than that. It's more like five to seven pounds in the freshman year. That's the good news. You ready for the other side of that? Researchers say students keep on gaining, putting on another two to three pounds in their sophomore year. And the guys are gaining more than the gals. Doctors say that the gradual weight gain could spell trouble way beyond graduation.

COLLINS: So it's not just the girls. Good to know.

All right, to get your "Daily Dose" of health news online, logon to our Web site. You can find the latest medical news, a health library and information on diet and fitness. That address, CNN.com/health.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: To business news now, Susan Lisovicz. You know, Susan, with today's sentencing of Jeffrey Skilling, it feels like the end of the Enron area.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A very painful era, I might add, Tony, for thousands of Enron employees and investors, as well. He was a principle figure in one of the biggest bankruptcies in U.S. history. And this afternoon, Enron's former chief executive, Jeff Skilling, will be sentenced. That story when NEWSROOM continues. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Want to get back to this video...

HARRIS: Favorite story of the day for you, isn't it?

COLLINS: Yes, well, only because...

HARRIS: Come on.

COLLINS: It's such a great ending.

HARRIS: Great ending, exactly.

COLLINS: We don't want to scare people with this video. Because it does not look very nice here from here. But anyway, what we're looking at is -- this is the Tidal Basin, behind the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C. And this Animal Control from D.C., helping to save this deer that probably wasn't prepared to do quite that much swimming when he kind of poked his way into the Tidal Basin. But the deer is OK, we hear. HARRIS: You see the guy in the yellow talking to the deer, talking to the guy with the...

COLLINS: Come on, nice little deer.

HARRIS: Come on. Hang in there. Hang in there.

COLLINS: Yes, this is where the deer gets out. And all was well. But Susan Lisovicz a little bit earlier was saying that possibly this was a reindeer on an early scouting mission.

HARRIS: I like to think of it that way.

COLLINS: Very good theory.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

HARRIS: Wonderful, wonderful. Susan, thank you.

COLLINS: Thank you, Susan.

And Don Lemon joining us now for what's ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: There he is.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: How are you?

COLLINS: Good.

LEMON: This weird, weird story. Don't you find this fascinating?

HARRIS: Yes.

LEMON: We've got this amnesia victim -- an amnesia victim ...

COLLINS: Not easy to say.

LEMON: ...not easy to say, says he wants his identity back. For weeks he had no idea who he was but now the man's family says he's come forward after he appealed for help on television. His fascinating saga ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And then the worsening situation in Iraq. Recently deadly attacks have weakened strategy sessions between the president and top commanders. What is next? That's what everybody is wondering. We'll talk about it, with CNN military analyst General David Grange.

All of that coming up today at 1:00 in the P.M. version of the CNN NEWSROOM, and we hope we hold it together as well as you guys do.

COLLINS: Oh, well, isn't that nice of you? I'm sure you will.

LEMON: And by the way, you look might fetching today.

HARRIS: Well, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: A little sucking up on a Monday.

COLLINS: Thank you, Don.

HARRIS: Still to come, tires, right for cars, wrong for reefs. Who thought this was a good idea?

COLLINS: Wow.

HARRIS: How plans to remove them changed with the shifting seas. That is straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Some new, fascinating video, if I may say.

HARRIS: Fascinating.

COLLINS: This is President Bush, as you see, and First Lady Laura Bush. Do you know who's getting out of that car?

HARRIS: I have no idea, Heidi.

COLLINS: This is the king and queen of Sweden, Svenska (ph), as you say.

HARRIS: I don't think they've ever been on the air here at CNN before.

COLLINS: No, they have not.

HARRIS: Why are they on the air here today?

COLLINS: We are going to be working on that. Actually, this is a photo-op. You see, lovely there. This is Carl XVI Gustaf, king of Sweden, and Queen Silvia.

HARRIS: Well, it's a lovely gathering.

COLLINS: Yes, it's supposed to further strengthen the U.S./Swedish relationship, which is a good one.

HARRIS: But as I mentioned a moment ago, Heidi, I can't recall another time when the Swedish royal family has been on CNN. And maybe that's an oversight on our part, but why is it happening today, Heidi?

COLLINS: Because I'm Swedish.

HARRIS: Oh!

COLLINS: And that's the long/short story of it. Actually, my family, can I say, the family Langenrute (ph) -- if I'm saying it correct, Langenrute -- I'm a descendant of that family which is the "Guinness Book Of World Records" largest family in the world.

HARRIS: Oh, that's not true.

COLLINS: We're now one percent of the Swedish population.

HARRIS: Is that true.

COLLINS: You are sitting next to a world record holder.

HARRIS: Really?

COLLINS: And look at -- oh, now they're gone.

HARRIS: That's wonderful.

COLLINS: They're telling us to move along, OK.

HARRIS: But that was a wonderful moment, don't you think?

COLLINS: Meanwhile, tire reefs. Take a look at this video. It sounded like a good idea to somebody, but instead of protecting the corals, they are killing them.

CNN's John Zarrella has the story now on damage control.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For decades now, retired ships have been given a second life: not floating on the top; sitting on the bottom as artificial reefs. Some well-intentioned people thought tires, once you got your 40,000 miles out of them, could serve the same useful purpose.

HOLLY BAMFORD, NOAA MARINE DEBRIS REMOVAL: They were inexpensive, they were durable, easy to handle. The one thing they weren't was stable.

ZARRELLA: But no one knew that 30 plus years ago, when right out there past those boats, about a mile off Ft. Lauderdale, bundles of tires were dumped to create an artificial reef. What they got instead was this: 70 feet down, tires scattered as far as you can see, two million of them. The nylon and steel straps that held them together had long ago disintegrated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tires turned out to be a bad idea. They're mobile. For some reason, things don't like to grow on them very well. Whether it's things leeching out of the rubber, we don't really know but they don't work, is the bottom line.

ZARRELLA: The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration says tires didn't work well wherever they were used -- off California, the Gulf of Mexico, North Carolina and New Jersey. But those places don't have coral reefs. The tires off Ft. Lauderdale were dumped between two living reefs, and thousands of the tires moved by storms and currents now rest up against the corals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, the lower slope of that reef is denuded of living things.

ZARRELLA: So, after 30 years, there's an urgency to get the tires up. The plan is to use Navy divers to collect them, put them in cargo nets and load them on U.S. Army landing craft. For the Navy divers, it would be a training opportunity. For the state and county, it would be a huge savings over hiring commercial divers.

Six years ago, university professor Robin Sherman led a project to study clean-up options. A team of 80 volunteers removed 1,600 tires and recycled them. But within two months, the area was covered again.

ROBIN SHERMAN, NOVA SOUTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: The tires were so mobile, so nearly neutrally buoyant, that they had moved with normal current and wave action and completely recovered the site that we had cleaned.

ZARRELLA: It will be at least a year before full-scale clean-up begins and may take up to three years. And by the way, tires are no longer permitted for use as artificial reefs.

John Zarrella, CNN, Ft. Lauderdale.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Seemed like a good idea at the time.

COLLINS: At one point, yes.

Well, CNN NEWSROOM continues one hour from now, Kyra Phillips and the team working hard to bring you the very latest on several big stories -- Don Lemon as well, as of the stories developing today.

HARRIS: "YOUR WORLD TODAY" is next with news happening around the globe and here at home. I'm Tony Harris.

COLLINS: And I'm Heidi Collins. Have a great Monday, everybody.

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