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Lou Dobbs Tonight
President Bush Blasts Democrats Over War in Iraq; Iraq is Central Issue in Midterm Elections; Are Iraqi Police Officers Loyal to Government?; Election Workers Scrambling To Deal With Last-Minute Problems With E-Voting Machines; What Happens In Iraq If Democrats Win on Election Day?
Aired November 02, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, a political showdown over the rising chaos in Iraq five days before Election Day. President Bush and the Democrats are facing off over the president's conduct of this war. We'll have complete coverage here tonight.
And state lawmakers demanding a federal investigation into the scandal over taxpayer-funded benefits for illegal aliens. Are state workers ignoring our laws and giving millions and millions of dollars of your tax money to illegal aliens? The answer is yes.
We'll have the special report, a great deal more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Thursday, November 2nd.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
President Bush today launched an all-out assault against his Democratic critics of the conduct of this war in Iraq. President Bush said harsh criticism, as he put it, is not a plan for victory. President Bush's remarks the latest indication that the White House believes it can rally the Republican base with a strong defense of the war in Iraq.
The Democrats appear to welcome this election battle over Iraq. The Democratic Party is expected to close its election campaign with a barrage of hard-hitting ads blasting the president's conduct.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from the White House on the president's new political offensive against Democrats.
Bill Schneider is here in New York with a report on the escalating P.R. war between the Democrats and the Republicans.
John Roberts tonight reporting from Baghdad on new concerns there tonight that U.S. strategy in this war is simply not working.
We turn first to Suzanne Malveaux at the White House -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, today President Bush, on the campaign trail, really campaigning in red states, very important states, Nevada, as well as Montana, where Republicans are struggling. And the big question tonight, of course, the challenges for the Iraq war, whether or not it will be a drag on the president's party.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): It's the elephant in every room.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I wish I could report to you that there wasn't a war, but there is.
MALVEAUX: The Iraq war, now the number one issue for voters in the upcoming congressional elections. The war, like the president, is highly unpopular, so Mr. Bush is trying to put the onus on the Democrats to come up with a solution to fix the problems in Iraq.
BUSH: The Democrats have no plan for victory. They have no idea how to win. Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory.
MALVEAUX: The president's strategy is to convince Americans first he gets it.
BUSH: No question about it, the fighting in Iraq is tough.
MALVEAUX: Second, to present a strategy for success.
BUSH: We have plain for victory in Iraq. I'm not going to leave our troops there unless I can tell you we're going to win
MALVEAUX: As Election Day nears, the president's rhetoric has sharpened. He now describes the stakes as do or die.
BUSH: The only way we can fail is if we leave before the job is done. And that's exactly what the Democrats want to do.
MALVEAUX: The president recently ditched his rallying cry to stay the course in Iraq. But Wednesday he sent a clear signal to his Republican base that he would not veer far, announcing that the architects of his Iraq policy, his secretary of defense and vice president, would serve out the remainder of his term.
Some political analysts say this election is not just about who controls Congress, but who shapes Mr. Bush's legacy.
STEPHEN HESS, BROOKINGS INST.: I think the absolutely most important thing he's trying to accomplish is to sell his policy to the American people, his policy on Iraq, which is the foundation of his administration.
MALVEAUX: The president has carefully selected his campaign stops in his sprint to the finish line, stumping where he believes he'll help not hurt his party.
HESS: It's a campaign designed to get the most out of what you got. (END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And of course, Lou, that is the question, what the president and the Republicans will get. His next stop is going to be the battleground state of Missouri. Then he travels, hits about a half-dozen other states, and then votes in Texas on Tuesday, and then returns to the White House -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you.
Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.
Democrats, of course also making the war in Iraq the central issue of their campaigns. They believe President Bush's conduct of this war will convince many undecided voters to vote Democratic Tuesday.
Bill Schneider has our report -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Lou, the 2006 midterm will come to be known as the Iraq election if Democrats have their way.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUSH: I think the elections will be decided by security and the economy.
SCHNEIDER (voice-over): What about Iraq? Ask what should be the top priority for the new Congress, more than four times as many people say Iraq than any other issue, according to "The New York Times"-CBS News poll. In the most recent CNN poll, nearly 60 percent say they oppose the war.
CNN has learned that congressional Democrats will close their campaign with a heavy ad push on Iraq. The ads charge the Republicans want to stay the course.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite a war gone wrong and no plan for victory, politicians like Rob Simmons keep voting to state course. Again and again. Following George Bush's failed leadership, no matter what the cost.
Stay the course with Rob Simmons, all we'll get is more of the same
SCHNEIDER: They show Republicans as a herd.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From special interest tax breaks to staying the course in Iraq, Mike Fitzpatrick just goes along with George Bush and the special interests. And we get left behind.
SCHNEIDER: They say Republicans are steering the country toward disaster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before they let the president steer us into an iceberg, maybe we should think about a new direction.
SCHNEIDER: Republicans ask, what do Democrats want to do in Iraq?
MARK KENNEDY, MINNESOTA SENATE CANDIDATE: You can't negotiate with people who want to kill you. I'm Mark Kennedy. Securing the peace is a lot harder than wishing for is. I approved this message, even though I know it may not be what you want to hear.
SCHNEIDER: Many Democratic ads are emotional.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iraq is a complete disaster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's heartbreaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me, it's very personal having a brother who is serving.
SCHNEIDER: This new Republican ad is also emotional.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served in Iraq, and I've had 13 operations on my leg to prove it. The war on terror isn't easy, but it's worth the sacrifice.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: In the final few days of the campaign, Republicans want to keep the focus on the global war on terror because that's the issue that brought them victory in 2002 and 2004 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, the issue here, obviously the Democrats want to make it the war in Iraq; President Bush, the Republicans, the war on terror. Is there a likely change in policy direction, irrespective of who win this is election, wins control of the House and the Senate?
SCHNEIDER: The president will still be George W. Bush for another two years. People expect the Democrats will put pressure on the president to make some sort of withdrawal, to make some compromise with them. But when Americans are voting in this election, they are aware that Bush will still be president and they can make a statement. So when the Republicans say, "What's the Democrats' plan?" I'm not sure the voters are voting for a plan, they are voting to make a statement.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
Three more of troops have been killed in Iraq. Insurgents killed two of our Marines in Al Anbar Province. And north of Baghdad, one of our soldiers was killed in a non-combat incident.
2,822 troops killed in this war. Many Iraqi police officers are also being killed, of course, in the line of duty. One hundred and nineteen Iraqi police were killed in October alone.
As the violence rises, there are increasing concerns about the loyalty of the Iraqi police. John Roberts has our report from Baghdad -- John.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Lou.
Adding to those grim statistics for the Iraqi police, another three died today when gunmen attacked an Iraqi police checkpoint. They do continue to be victims of the sectarian violence, as well as the Sunni insurgency. But, Lou, there are also charges that they are responsible for some of those killings.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS (voice-over): It was graduation day in Numaniyah. Sixteen hundred recruits at the fourth national police brigade on the parade ground after four weeks of retraining in human rights and the law.
SGT. STEVEN BISHOP, U.S. ARMY: The idea is to take them for more paramilitary, to actual policing-type organization. And it's gone pretty well so far. There are a few bumps in the road. This is the first class that they'll go through.
ROBERTS: The course was ordered after another national police brigade was taken off the streets early last month, suspected of involvement in the sectarian violence that has gripped the nation.
(on camera): This graduation ceremony is all very exciting for these recruits and for the U.S. military, which one day hopes to turn security of the country over to them. But there are ongoing concerns about militia infiltration in these forces. In fact, according to some reports, up to 70 percent of the Iraqi and national police have some sort of connection to a militia.
(voice-over): Publicly, the U.S. military is trying to put its best spin on the development of the Iraqi police. But privately, American soldiers who work with them admit infiltration, particularly by Shiite militias, is a huge problem.
Iraq's Sunni's vice president is demanding a purge of all police units, saying the security situation is deteriorating and security forces are playing a big part in that. At the same time, though, Sunnis and U.S. commanders are praising the incorporation of tribal militias into the police forces in the western town of Ramadi, a Sunni stronghold. And down south, in the Shiite town of Amara, police commanders who were recently attacked by the Mahdi militia proudly claim membership in the competing Badr brigades, an organization with suspected ties to Iran, which, in turn, backs Iraq's Shiite leaders.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: If the Iraqi government and the U.S. military and the White House hope to be able to bring security to Iraq, they have to build the credibility of these national police and local Iraqi police forces. But, Lou, I've been around many of the areas of Baghdad, some of the Shiite and Sunni towns and villages to the north, and among Sunnis there is still deep mistrust of these government forces. The only force that they really have any respect for so far is the Iraqi military, and, of course, U.S. troops, but there are also a lot of problems with the U.S. enforcing security around this area -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you.
John, if I could ask you, please stay with us here. I'm going to ask General David Grange to join us.
General Grange, good to have you with us.
You've just heard John Roberts' report that as many as 70 percent of those Iraqi police have a connection, an attachment to militias, either Sunni or Shia. What is your reaction, and how do you think that would affect any prospect for real stability?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, any kind of democratic governance, even if it's a fledgling government like Iraq, is going to require the military for sure, and hopefully police, to be loyal to that government. If they are loyal to a -- to a different, separate -- separatist organization, a militia, and they don't have the loyalty, they'll never be able to have the commitment and the confidence of the people, which are the center of gravity, in order to govern. So it won't work if that's the case.
DOBBS: Well, let's turn to the issue of the progress that's being made, the violence. White House Press Secretary Tony Snow saying point blank that violence is decreasing in Iraq.
John Roberts, is that your sense, that things are stabilizing, that things are getting better?
ROBERTS: Lou, everything here is relative. And the figures that are being talked about in these days are relative to what was happening back at the beginning of the month of Ramadan, back at the beginning of October.
I actually had a briefing from one of the brigade commanders when I first arrived here who walked me through a presentation to show that there was a definite spike at the beginning of Ramadan and it has tailed off some as Ramadan progressed and then ended. But it's not to say that the level is particularly lower than it was earlier this year. It's just all relative to that Ramadan -- the opening of Ramadan -- spike.
DOBBS: Of course, October being the fourth-deadliest month in this war for our troops.
General Grange, the president yesterday said, speaking about the conduct of the war in Iraq, "I am pleased" -- "I am pleased with the progress we're making."
Are you pleased with what you're seeing with what is happening militarily there?
GRANGE: Well, you know, overall I disagree. I don't think -- I think that the soldiers, Marines are making tremendous gains in their operations as American units, as the coalition forces are throughout Iraq.
The problem is, the training, in a very -- in a fast way, which is very difficult to do, of the Iraqi police and Iraqi military organizations, and they -- and they -- and that's a slow process. And now if you have the infiltrations, shortages of equipment, it's a very tough thing to take on. And that's going to take some time.
And this is a race against time. If the militia becomes more powerful before the Iraqi military becomes more powerful, then it's a good chance that the Iraqi government may not be able to win this thing.
DOBBS: John Roberts, to the degree that -- that our officers there and our men and women in uniform can speak candidly to you, is there a sense there of optimism? What is the mood of our men and women fighting this country's battles?
ROBERTS: You know, there really is a split here, Lou. Publicly, they voice optimism about the mission, they voice optimism about standing up Iraqi troops and police.
You talk to them off camera, they still remain optimistic about the mission, they still believe that they are doing a good job. But there is also this sense of pessimism that underlies everything that they talk about in terms of being able to turn control over to the Iraqi security services.
In fact, you know, when I was at that graduation ceremony yesterday, I heard one of the soldiers joking with another one -- and these are people who deal with these Iraqi police all of the time -- and it's said that, you know, in jokes there is always some element of truth. I overheard the soldier saying, "There go the Iraqi national police, the greatest threat to peace and security in Iraq" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let me -- General Grange, let me ask you this, as I asked -- well, General Paul Eaton and General John Batiste and Colonel Tom Hannis (ph) yesterday on this broadcast, is Iraq becoming a testament to the fact that we should never have breached the Powell doctrine?
GRANGE: Well, the Powell doctrine has many components. The parts that I read on their -- their discussions with you really had to do with mass.
DOBBS: Right.
GRANGE: It had to do with certain conditions. There is some...
DOBBS: Overwhelming.
GRANGE: ... violation. But I don't believe the Powell doctrine will work in every situation. In this case, many of his points definitely are relevant to the fight in Iraq.
DOBBS: OK. General David Grange, thank you very much. John Roberts, reporting tonight live from Baghdad.
Thank you, Gentlemen.
Still ahead here, President Bush repeatedly says Democrats don't have a plain for Iraq. Is that true? We'll have a special report.
And demands tonight for an investigation into the scandal over taxpayer-funded benefits for illegal aliens. We'll have that report.
And this is what Mexican president Vicente Fox calls social harmony. Violence raging again in the streets of Oaxaca.
We'll have that story and a great deal more.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In campaigns all over the country, candidates running on border security and against illegal immigration may have the upper hand at the polls. These candidates want to go to Washington to fix what is a completely broken system, but tonight some local communities are finding it's a bureaucracy that is almost impossible to fix. Not only in Washington, but at home.
We have two reports tonight.
Christine Romans is here with a report on the millions upon millions of dollars and benefits going to illegal aliens illegally, and state workers who are powerless to stop it.
Casey Wian reports tonight on the impact of border security on key congressional races.
We begin tonight with Christine Romans -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Oklahoma lawmakers are demanding an investigation into a state bureaucracy that they say is giving taxpayer benefits to illegal aliens.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): Oklahoma spends $30 million a month on food stamps. State social worker Steven Thomas has seen thousands of cases where illegal aliens apply for those benefits. But the woman who oversees the program denies that federal dollars are being misspent in Oklahoma. She admits illegal aliens are awarded debit cards for food stamps for their children who are U.S. citizens, but at the same time...
KATHIE WRIGHT, OKLAHOMA HUMAN SERVICES: Illegal aliens do not receive benefits knowingly through the Department of Human Services in Oklahoma.
ROMANS: Oklahoma's Department of Human Services is under intense fire from lawmakers.
RANDY TERRILL, OKLAHOMA STATE HOUSE: They are intentionally misleading people in an attempt to make the problem look like it is less in scope than what it really is.
ROMANS: Critics say, first, illegal aliens are getting benefits meant for legal residents. And second, the state bureaucracy has abdicated its legal responsibility to report them.
Wright denies this.
WRIGHT: They are to report instances where they feel that they have an illegal alien in the home. Our process in Oklahoma is for them to report that to our state office area where we work cooperatively with them and determine if that is appropriate to them, send it on to immigration.
ROMANS: But last year no cases were referred to federal authorities. And lawmakers point to this two-year-old training video which suggests the law doesn't apply.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The federal requirement is that I report to the Department of Homeland Security once a quarter of people we believe are not here lawfully. I know, gosh, maybe -- that is actually food stamp policy. Essentially, that policy is going to be suspended, for lack of a better word, I guess.
ROMANS: There is no doubt that Oklahoma taxpayers are paying benefits for illegal aliens. According to the Oklahoma Health Care Authority, taxpayers last year spent almost $10 million on health care treating 4,450 illegal aliens. Most of the cost labor and delivery fees.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Those children, of course, are American citizens, and they are legally eligible for food stamps, subsidized daycare and many other benefits. It's one reason, Lou, why it becomes so difficult to count the true cost of illegal immigration.
DOBBS: And meanwhile, this plays into the hands of the open borders, illegal alien amnesty advocates and lobbying groups. And straightforwardly, this is a state official, on camera, saying that -- despite her statements -- that they are not in any way enforcing the law.
ROMANS: They are not the immigration police.
DOBBS: They are not the immigration police, but they have a law that requires them to do something.
ROMANS: Absolutely. They absolutely do.
DOBBS: It's a good thing they are not the police, because they won't follow the law.
And we should be clear. This isn't happening just in Oklahoma. It's all across the nation.
In California, 80 hospitals closed because of indigent care, primarily because of illegal aliens. American citizens again losing facilities because of what is simply an overwhelmed system.
Thanks, Christine.
Christine Romans.
Later here, Steve Thomas, along with Oklahoma State Representative Randy Terrill, and Oklahoma Catholic Charities attorney Shirley Cox join us to discuss the burden that illegal immigration is putting on taxpayers.
Standing up for fixing our broken borders. Candidates who favor action to protect our borders and stop the flow of illegal immigration may be in for a pleasant surprise at the polls. We'll see.
Casey Wian has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While many congressional incumbents are struggling to hold on to their jobs, most of those who favor strong border security and oppose illegal alien amnesty appear headed to victory. Those are the positions of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus founded by Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo.
According to projections by "Congressional Quarterly," 100 of the 104 pro-border security lawmakers are expected to win re-election.
BRIAN DARLING, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The big issues are the economy and the war and the global war on terror. But what may happen is this illegal immigration issue may become a tie tiebreaker in close elections. It's in the next tier of issues that the American people care about.
Minuteman Project cofounder Jim Gilchrist is on the campaign trail, stumping for like-minded candidates, including John Hostettler in Indiana. Among the tightest races involving border security candidates are in San Diego, where Republican Brian Bilbray is trying to defeat Francine Busby for the second time in five months.
In June, Busby infamously invited illegal aliens to help her campaign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This here is national security.
WIAN: Border security hawk Randy Graf is trying to win a congressional race in Arizona despite the initial failure of his own Republican Party to endorse his campaign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: J.D. Hayworth, he's listening to us and drawing the line...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the border.
WIAN: Arizona Republican J.D. Hayworth is in a surprisingly close battle against an opponent who also claims to be tough on illegal immigration but who actually supports amnesty for illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: While many candidates now say they favor a border security first approach to immigration reform, political analysts say few candidates are willing to admit that they favor the Senate's approach, which of course would grant amnesty to millions of illegal aliens already in the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: Comprehensive immigration reform, I believe the amnesty advocates like to call it.
Thank you very much.
Casey Wian.
That's a striking number, 100 out of 104. Is that correct?
WIAN: That's correct. That's -- you know, we went through every single one of those congressmen and looked at how "Congressional Quarterly" rated their races, and 100 of them were considered basically safe seats -- Lou.
DOBBS: Remarkable. All right. Thank you very much.
Casey Wian.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe candidates running on a platform to end this country's illegal immigration crisis and to secure our borders and ports will win their respective races? Yes or no?
Cast your votes at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Mexican federal police tonight are failing to restore order in the lawless city of Oaxaca. Mexican President Fox sent hundreds of police officers to Oaxaca, the province earlier this week, to crush violent demonstrations, but the violence is continuing.
Riot police today using tear gas and water cannon to force back protesters hurling Molotov cocktails. President Vicente Fox claimed just three days ago that "social harmony" had be restored in the province of Oaxaca.
Coming up next, there's a yellow button on one type of e-voting machine that is a marvel. It could enable an outrageous form of vote tampering. We'll tell you which machine is involved and what, if anything, is being done about it.
Also, he's not a Republican, he's not a Democrat, but he's one congressional candidate who actually addresses the interests and the issues most important to our middle class.
We'll meet him next.
And if Democrats win control of the House of Representatives, many Americans believe it could change our course in Iraq. Would it?
We'll have a special report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Election workers are scrambling all over the country trying to deal with an avalanche of last-minute problems with e-voting machines. With this information just pouring in, it's difficult to understand how the electorate can feel any sense of confidence in our upcoming election.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You really can't miss it, the yellow button at the back of the Sequoia voting machine. Tens of thousand of machines used in 16 state and Washington, D.C. That button puts the machine in manual mode so anyone can vote and repeatedly cast as many votes as they want.
Activists say it's a major problem.
TOM COURBAT, SAVE R VOTE: I worry about the poll captains having access. They're temporary workers. In many cases there aren't background checks done on them. And it's easy for them to go back there, make those changes, and vote repeatedly and not be noticed.
PILGRIM: Sequoia says this button is a standard and deliberate feature. The California Secretary of State's Office says they have security guidelines to alert poll workers to keep a close watch on the button and any tampering. All across the country, activists have called attention to vulnerabilities on all kinds of electronic voting machines, but few of those vulnerabilities have been fixed.
LOWELL FINLEY, VOTER ACTION: We're at the 11th hour and it's too late to do anything to stop the use of these e-voting machines, but it's not too late for voters to do something about it, and we're here to train volunteers so that they can get out there and observe the process and document, shine a light, on the problem that e-voting is causing in this country.
PILGRIM: All sorts of electronic glitches are showing up, screens display the wrong candidate when a button is pushed. Today in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, large print options didn't work properly, cutting off candidate names and election officials struggled with other electronic snafus.
MICHAEL VU, CUYAHOGA CO. ELECTION OFFICIAL: We just got notice from the Secretary of State's Office today that some voting units will not be reflective of Daylight Savings Time. PILGRIM: Potentially causing the machines to close down early. Technicians from the voting companies are working to sort out the last-minute problems.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Today, activists pointed out that Sequoia will again have Venezuelan nationalists as support workers on the electronic machines. That's in Cook County, Illinois. Now, the workers are project managers from Smartmatic, the Venezuelan company that bought Sequoia.
Election officials say they have no way of knowing how many Venezuelans will be there but they've seen some around. Sequoia today said eight to 10 Venezuelan nationals will help with the voting machines during the elections -- Lou.
DOBBS: Hugo Chavez is sending observers and monitors for our election, I take it?
PILGRIM: I -- you know, Venezuelan nationals taking a look at our machines.
DOBBS: Well, that's wonderful. I mean, there are times I keep expecting the country to just sort of go into a group scream over these e-voting machines because it does not make any sense that we could be in this kind of vulnerable, absurd position this close ...
PILGRIM: Activists are in a group scream, and I think it's important that everyone document anything that goes wrong so that it can be known.
DOBBS: Is there a sense among those activists, in particular, we're going to have enough people monitoring these elections to be aware in time that something has happened?
PILGRIM: They are trying to set up hotlines and volunteer organizations.
DOBBS: All right, thank you very much. We'll continue here in just one moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Last night we reported to you what the House of Representatives and its major committees might look like if the Democrats were to win Tuesday night, control of the House.
Tonight, we investigate just what Democrats might be both able and willing to do about the issue of the war in Iraq should they win Tuesday night.
Andrea Koppel has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If Democrats win next week, does that mean U.S. troops will start leaving Iraq? The vast majority of Americans think it does.
According to a new "New York Times"/CBS News poll, four out of 10 Americans believe if Democrats take control of Congress, they will reduce the number of U.S. troops in Iraq, while yet another 40 percent believe Democrats will try to withdraw all U.S. troops.
But Rhode Island Democrat Jack Reed, the co-author of one plan supported by dozens of Senate Democrats says ...
SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: A precipitous withdrawal in a matter of a few weeks or months won't work practically, and I don't think it would contribute to the best outcome. It might be far from what the president originally thought, but the best outcome that we're going to see for Iraq.
KOPPEL: On the other end of the spectrum, Pennsylvania Democrat Jack Murtha strongly disagrees with Reed and has called for all U.S. troops leave Iraq.
REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: There no solution to Iraq. There is only an alternative and that's to redeploy and let the Iraqis handle it themselves.
KOPPEL: And while Massachusetts Senator John Kerry, and about a dozen other Senate Democrats agree with Murtha, Delaware's Joe Biden has other ideas, too. Under his plan, Iraq would be partitioned into three autonomous regions with a strong central government responsible for splitting oil revenues among them. Experts say it's no surprise Democrats do not speak with one voice on Iraq.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Democrats have a dilemma because on the one hand, they have to deliver in terms of a better policy. On the other hand, the public also wants them to get troops home and those two thoughts are not necessarily compatible.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: For that and other reasons, some experts predict that the most likely outcome may just be more of the same, with Democrats continuing vote to support the budget for U.S. troops while at the same time, Lou, continuing to criticize the president's policy on Iraq.
DOBBS: Andrea, thank you very much. Andrea Koppel from Washington tonight.
Well, we've reported to you on the problems that that little yellow button on the back of some e-voting machines -- the problems that may be caused in 16 states and Washington, D.C. come Election Day. We'll be joined here next with Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, who's been amongst those at the forefront in bringing the concerns about e-voting and the threat to this country's democracy to the public attention. And Oklahoma, as we've said, has a little problem. They are spending a lot of money supporting illegal aliens, and in doing so they are breaking the law. We're going to examine that problem from three different angles next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Millions of Americans will be voting Tuesday on e-voting machines, almost wholly-owned by nationals of a foreign government. The voting machine maker Sequoia was sold last year to a company called Smartmatic. It's a company 90 percent owned by three Venezuelans, we think.
The owners deny any connection to the country's anti-American government, but more than a few people have their doubts. Among them is my guest tonight, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney. She pushed to initiate an ongoing federal ongoing investigation of the sale.
Congresswoman, good to have you with us.
REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D), NEW YORK: Well, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.
MATTHEWS: Let's start with Kitty Pilgrim's report tonight that we have machines out there in 16 states and Washington, D.C., Sequoias, Smartmatic, the Venezuelan company, in which someone can push a button and vote as many times as they want to? What in the world is going on?
MALONEY: Lou, this story just keeps getting worse and worse. Big yellow buttons on machines that allow people to vote as many times as they want? We've always heard about people trying to steal elections or game elections, but it seems like the technology is allowing it to go to an even higher level.
Then she reports that more Venezuelan technicians are coming in to run the machines. So my question is, why can't Americans conduct their own elections? Why can't Americans be the technicians that look at our voting machines? Why can't we have standards and an independent review that makes sure these voting machines are accurate?
DOBBS: Could these be more jobs, that President Bush says that Americans simply won't do?
MALONEY: I think every American would be very proud to be part of supporting honest elections in our country.
DOBBS: The Help America Vote Act, the law, the billions of dollars put forward four years ago -- we get to this stage today, and I'm sitting here, frankly, tonight, I'm laughing because, as a friend of mine says, when you cross the penumbra of the absurd, there is only one thing to do, and that is to laugh.
But this is scary, the potential disaster that we're facing here, isn't it? MALONEY: I a agree. And it's election season, I don't usually quote former President Ronald Reagan. He used to say, trust, but verify. And what we're seeing in our election process is very little audits. There's no oversight, there's no accountability. We can get a paper trail when we buy a cup of coffee in the morning, but we can't get a paper trail on our votes with our voting machines?
This is outrageous. I think that we should have standards, an independent panel to review these machines. And certainly, we should not have big yellow buttons that allow someone to vote as many times as they want. It's truly scary.
DOBBS: The contested presidential election of 2000, these e- voting machines, which some people thought might be helpful, rather than a potential disaster initially -- we're headed to a point where the electoral system is being laid bare for all to examine. And first and foremost amongst them are the e-voting machines that are unreliable, can be manipulated and, frankly, elections stolen.
But we have also the issue of not knowing who is registered to vote, in New York, 77,000 dead people registered to vote. We have all sorts of issues surrounding this election. Do we -- do both parties have enough people involved in monitoring themselves to assure an honest election?
MALONEY: Well, we certainly need to do much more. There's no question about it. But everyone should vote, because if you don't vote your vote's not going to be counted.
But as Kitty pointed out, that everyone should report if they see anything that they feel is not accurate or accountable. And we're moving forward, but your series -- and I congratulate you on it, has really pointed on many things that we need to do in government to make the system more secure.
The more I study it, the more questions I have, and your report tonight, or rather Kitty's, was truly astonishing. More technicians are being sent in from Venezuela? Why? Why can't Americans conduct American elections?
DOBBS: I think that is a wonderful question. But I have that question about so many jobs in this country.
I want to congratulate you, too, for taking the lead and calling upon the CFIUS, the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, Treasury Arm, to investigate this sale. And without you, that would have gone all but unnoticed. So congratulations to you and keep up the good work.
Thank you very much, Congresswoman.
MALONEY: Well, thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll, do you believe candidates running on a platform to end this country's illegal immigration crisis and to secure our borders will win their respective races? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. And we're going to make sure that it counts tonight.
Stay with, because coming up next, illegal alien benefit fraud, costing the nation's taxpayers billions of dollars. One man has said enough is enough. He's become a whistleblower. Steve Thomas, the Oklahoma state employee who almost lost his job exposing the crisis. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Up next on CNN, the "SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer and Paula Zahn -- Wolf, Paula.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Lou.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou.
In the next few minutes one of the top predictors in American politics, he's going to be revising his analysis of the midterm election and guess what? There's a potential bombshell out there. We're going to find out who Stuart Rothenberg predicts will control the U.S. House of Representatives and Senate after Tuesday's election.
ZAHN: If it's a bombshell I can only imagine what he might be saying tonight.
BLITZER: I guess we'll soon find out.
ZAHN: You'll have to stay tuned.
And who's playing the blame game here? Who's ultimately responsible when things go wrong in a war? Well, the finger pointing that has some people absolutely outraged.
BLITZER: And Michael J. Fox now is starring in those controversial campaign commercials. The actor just sat down with our own Anderson Cooper. This is a really remarkable interview. You're going to want to see it. You're going to want to see what he says about Rush Limbaugh, as well.
ZAHN: I had a feeling that name would come up in that interview.
Plus, the Christian soldiers who put President Bush in the White House, are they having a crisis of faith? Why do some polls say many more of them will vote Democratic this time? That and a whole lot more coming up in the "SITUATION ROOM" -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right. Looking forward to it. Thank you both.
Tonight, Oklahoma State Human Services employee Steve Thomas is speaking out on his state's failure to enforce illegal immigration laws. He's fighting illegal alien benefit fraud, fraud that's costing taxpayers billions of dollars across the country. His fight almost cost him his job.
Steve Thomas joins me tonight from Oklahoma City, as well as Oklahoma State Representative Randy Terrill, who's also fighting to expose the benefit fraud. And Oklahoma Catholic Charities Attorney Shirley Cox, who denies there is a growing problem with illegal aliens receiving taxpayer-funded benefits.
Good to have you all with us. Thank you.
Steve Thomas, you testified that you -- that the Civil Rights Board told you that you scared a suspected illegal immigrant by explaining you were required to report them for seeking benefits. What has been the reaction there to that revelation?
STEVE THOMAS, OKLAHOMA DEPT. OF HUMAN SVCS.: Well, that reporting requirement is something that I felt like was entitled of every client that came into our office to know what their rights and responsibilities were and what our reporting requirements were. And I did not personally say I was going to report him. I just showed him the memo that we are required to fill out on them and sent to state office, and state office sends to immigration if they find appropriate.
It's my right to let these people know what we're doing, and in fact the memo's not even in Spanish, it's only English. So I don't see -- I see a problem with the way they are having us do our job there.
DOBBS: Well, let me ask you if I may, Randy Terrill, what in the world -- if there is a state requirement and a requirement for that notification, how can state officials there be telling the employees like Steve Thomas that this requirement is going to be suspended without any action by the legislature or by the federal government?
RANDY TERRILL, OKLAHOMA STATE HOUSE: Well, that's the question that we asked in the interim study last week, and it's not a state requirement, although we're trying to make it that. It currently is a federal requirement. And let me tell you, DHS has morphed its internal policy from what is a mandatory reporting requirement in those circumstances to essentially what is a discretionary reporting requirement.
And let me tell you, what DHS is saying, that there are no illegal aliens that are receiving these benefits, is not only false, but let me also tell you, they aren't -- they aren't reporting those who attempt to fraudulently obtain those benefits, and the DHS director admitted that in a separate state senate hearing on illegal immigration a few weeks ago.
DOBBS: Admitted it?
TERRILL: Admitted it, that there have been no cases where the Department of Human Services has reported to federal immigration authorities an illegal alien that's fraudulently attempted to obtain those benefits.
DOBBS: Shirley Cox, what's your reaction to all of this?
SHIRLEY COX, OKLAHOMA CATHOLIC CHARITIES: My reaction is that the Department of Human Services is following the federal law and federal register in September of 2000. The federal register reflects a discussion among five different agencies that came together to talk about how it would be that people should be reported under what's called the Personal Responsibility and Work Authorization Act of 1996.
Under that act, state agencies can elect -- and this is what the register said -- to simply report if an agency knows of the existence of an undocumented person. That knowing element requires a finding of fact, or a conclusion of law, that is part of an administrative determination that is subject to review, and includes documentation from the immigration service now called USCIS, but at that time called the Immigration and Naturalization Service...
DOBBS: They pretty much don't care what they are called. They are so messed up, they haven't got a clue anyway.
COX: Yes. It still requires that there is documentation from the service or from what's called (INAUDIBLE) office.
DOBBS: Shirley, you're with Catholic charities. That's a pretty high barrier. I mean, so what you're saying is, it's almost -- it's extraordinarily difficult, let me say, for anyone to deny illegal aliens benefits, then, under that high threshold?
COX: No, no, that's reporting requirements, not denial of benefits. They are denied benefits if they are not a U.S. citizen, and that's where the discussion is. But the reporting requirement is if they know.
DOBBS: Let's get to that issue. Let's get to that issue. Do we know how many applicants have been denied benefits in the state of Oklahoma, let's start with food stamps, because of -- because they are illegal aliens? Shirley, do you know?
COX: No, but if they are not U.S. citizens, they are not eligible for food stamps. So if they are...
DOBBS: Well, Steve Thomas says they're getting them. Randy Terrill says they are getting them.
TERRILL: This is -- Lou, let me be clear about this, what she's saying. She's technically telling you, according to federal law, they are not eligible to receive the benefit. She is therefore ipso facto wanting you and all your viewers to believe that they are not getting them, which is patently false. The DHS director even admitted that there are illegal aliens fraudulently using documents to obtain these public assistance benefits, specifically food stamps.
Beyond that, the scope of the problem is even greater than that, because those numbers don't take into account the anchor baby phenomenon. So once they have a child that is actually an American citizen, then they become eligible not only for the food stamps but for all the other benefits. So the scope of the problem is enormous.
DOBBS: Shirley, well, let me ask you, I'm trying to figure out your perspective here, then, if what Randy is saying is right. I mean, what is your interest in denying what is reality? COX: There is no denial of reality. The so-called anchor babies that Randy Terrill is talking about are U.S. citizens of the United States, entitled to the rights and benefits of all U.S. citizens of the United States. They are not people, they are not somehow entities that anchor these families.
They are entitled to food stamps, but that amounts to one person being entitled for food stamps. A family cannot survive on one eligibility, one person's eligibility for food stamps. So saying that they can support an entire family is simply an inaccurate statement.
And they are U.S. citizens. The 14th Amendment of the United States says any person born or naturalized in the United States is a U.S. citizen. And they are eligible for benefits if they are a U.S. citizen.
TERRILL: Lou, she's now trying to convince you that illegal aliens aren't getting any greater benefit than U.S. citizens, and that's absolutely false.
Steve is actually an eligibility determination guy. He can tell you that these illegal aliens actually get greater benefits, because the amount of income that their family receives is pro-rated, so a U.S. family of U.S. citizens at one income level who might not be eligible for food stamps, they are actually families of -- that include illegal aliens that would be eligible under the same circumstance. And not only that, they get additional daycare benefits. Here's what this boils down to...
DOBBS: We're going to have to break it here, Randy Terrill. Go ahead and finish your thought real quickly.
TERRILL: It's a license to steal from the taxpayers. The taxpayers have a right, an absolute right, to know how many illegal aliens are getting these benefits and what the cost is.
THOMAS: And what about the reporting forms? If we're not required to report them, why do they have them on our Web site? Why do we still have to follow these rules if -- are we using these forms to intimidate these people or to confuse the worker? Get rid of the forms, get rid of the policy if we're not required do it.
DOBBS: Shirley Cox, any last thought?
COX: I think that you have to take in perspective that this is a federal issue and federal law, and so we have to look to the federals -- the feds to decide what needs to be done, and the federal law has -- the federal state -- I mean, the federal...
DOBBS: The state agency, though, is administering this portion of the law.
COX: But it's federal funds. It's federal funds that are being used.
DOBBS: Ah. So we shouldn't worry about it since it's just federal money.
TERRILL: And what embarrassment, Lou...
DOBBS: Folks, I've got to break this. I would love to continue. We appreciate you being here. Steve Thomas...
TERRILL: OK. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: ... Randy Terrill, Shirley Cox, thank you very much, all of you.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. More of your thoughts. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now, the results of our poll: 80 percent of you say candidates running on a platform to end this country's illegal immigration crisis and secure our borders will win their races.
Time now for more of your thoughts. From Doug in Wisconsin -- "In regard to your story about the Oklahoma employee who got into trouble for reporting illegal immigrants, is it not the duty and responsibility of all Americans to report any and all illegal activities? By not reporting it, would he be considered an accessory? Maybe the folks who made the instructional DVD should be considered accessories as well. The gentleman from the Oklahoma did the right thing and should be congratulated."
From Dave in Rhode Island -- "Your book is honest, insightful, and cuts right to the heart of the systemic problems of our country. It also inspires the reader to get up and do something. Thank you."
No, thank you.
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "War on the Middle Class."
We thank you for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. Our special expanded edition of "THE SITUATION ROOM" starts now with Wolf Blitzer and Paula Zahn from our New York election headquarters -- Paula.
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