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Nancy Grace
Utah Judge`s Actions Under Scrutiny
Aired November 06, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a Utah man pleads guilty after being charged with 20 sex attacks on a 7-year-old child. This is not a whodunnit. He pled guilty. But then enter Utah judge Leslie Lewis. She secretly slashes a decade -- 10 years -- off the sentence. Judge Leslie Lewis, you are in contempt!
And tonight to Florida. In a bizarre twist, a father is ambushed and stabbed by assailants nearly to death, all in order to kidnap the man`s 4- year-old girl. PS, suspected mastermind? The girl`s own mother.
But first tonight, to Utah. Judge Lewis, you are in contempt!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE LESLIE LEWIS: I have a prejudice concerning deer hunters and people who kill deer and transport deer that have been shot. Have you ever actually looked at a deer when they`re alive, and it doesn`t bother you that you can see their heart beating?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
LEWIS: (INAUDIBLE) Are we boring you? Now, why did you feel the need to make such an explosive and clear indication of your displeasure or boredom at being here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have just as much rights as going out and shooting deer as you have the right of anything else.
LEWIS: What are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: Put him into custody. I`m not going to argue with you. And you have no business chastising me, sir. And I did not make a comment that you have any right to correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
LEWIS: What I said is I had strong feelings, and consequently was recusing myself. I don`t want to hear a word from you!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. From slashing the sentences of convicted sex offenders, giving straight probation to other sex offenders, vacating death sentences, and now holding a court spectator in contempt, having him locked up, handcuffed and thrown into jail? Glad we found out the night before elections!
Out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez. Jean, what`s going on in Utah?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, Nancy, this is all about court judge Leslie Lewis. She`s up for a retention vote tomorrow, which means the voters will either say, yes, they want to retain her in office, or no.
But I think the most serious allegation against her involves a man by the name of James Robert Scott. He was charged originally with 20 counts of sexual abuse of his child. He pleaded guilty to three counts of sodomy of a child, and Judge Lewis sentenced him to 10 years per count. So three counts, they would run consecutively, 10, 20, 30 years.
Well, what she did the next couple of months after that was to change the sentence from 30 years to 20 years. And she didn`t tell the prosecuting attorneys or the victims` families.
GRACE: Wait. You`re telling me she had a secret conversation with the defense and slashed the sentence?
CASAREZ: And that is what happened. The defense attorney actually had written her a letter saying, You know, I`m concerned about how I, the defense attorney, was treated in the sentencing hearing. She called the defense attorney and allegedly during that conversation said, You know what I`m going to do? I`m going to take those 30 years, I`m going to bump it down to 20 years, but don`t tell the prosecutor.
GRACE: Well, a simple Trial 101. It is called ex parte communications. It is absolutely disallowed for a judge to have communications with one side, say the defense team, and not let the prosecution know about it.
And let`s go out to a special guest joining us, the editor at justice desk for "The Salt Lake City Tribune," Brent Israelsen. Brent, thank you for being with us. Is it true that this judge allegedly tampered with court documents, changing dates on sentences?
BRENT ISRAELSEN, EDITOR OF JUSTICE DESK, "SALT LAKE CITY TRIBUNE": Well, we don`t know all the details yet on the investigation. The case is being investigated by the Judicial Conduct Commission of the state of Utah. If you look at the court docket, though, electronically, you`ll find that the sentence was changed -- appears to have been changed the same day that it was made initially. So it looks like there`s something askew, at least in the court record at first glance. But whether or not that`s just a clerical error -- but it`s clear that the sentencing was changed months later, or at least a month later, after the fact.
GRACE: Let`s go out to tonight`s "Star Chamber." Joining us tonight, three very well respected and retired judges from all over the country. First of all, let`s go out to Stephen Wellinghorst, a former judge in Passaic County. Judge, explain to me what is so wrong about -- forget reducing a convicted child sex predator`s sentence. I mean, this is not a whodunnit, Stephen. Had he pled guilty to 20 counts, including sodomy on a 7-year-old girl. And without telling the state, the prosecution, or the victim`s family -- nobody knows -- she knocks 10 years off the sentence and does it in secret, Stephen.
STEPHEN WELLINGHORST, FORMER JUDGE, PASSAIC COUNTY: It`s unbelievable, Nancy. Really, what tells you how bizarre this is, is that the defense attorney for the defendant called the state ethical board or the state judge`s board and said this judge did something improper. Even the defense lawyer, who had 10 years knocked off of his own client`s sentence, knew that this was an ethical dilemma where he had to report it and knew that it was improper.
GRACE: This guy pled to three of those 20-plus counts. Let`s go out to the lines. Levi in Tennessee. Hi, Levi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. I`ve done some research on this woman, as well, and I found out that she also had dinner with defense lawyers in a murder trial. And I`d like to know, how many admonishments can she get before she`s thrown off the bench?
GRACE: You know, Levi, I found the same thing in my research. Everybody, this went up to a commission on judicial ethics, the allegation that in the middle of a murder trial -- I`m not sure if the jury`s deliberating or not. During the middle of a jury trial, the judge goes and has dinner with the defense team. Can you tell me anything about that, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: Well, we do know there was an allegation, there was an investigation, but it obviously did not remove her from the bench because she is still on the bench. But what happens, when it goes to the judicial conduct commission, they make a study, an investigation. And they can recommend one of four things. They can recommend everything from a suspension to a removal to a public reprimand or nothing. And I think that`s one in a long list of what people say that she has done.
GRACE: Let`s go back out to our "Star Chamber," veteran trial judges who have been on many benches. All of these judges left the bench on their own volition. They weren`t thrown off the bench or didn`t lose an election. Let`s go out to Robert Damiano, former judge in Passaic County. Judge, thank you for being with us. The idea of having a social dinner, an engagement with the defense team during a murder trial -- I`ve never heard anything like it.
ROBERT DAMIANO, FORMER JUDGE, PASSAIC COUNTY: Nancy, that`s beyond all bounds of propriety. I`ve never heard anything like it, either. A judge has to remain aloof and set apart from the fray. He should never be socializing, other than having conversation in chambers with both counsel on the merits of the case. Having dinner with participants is absolutely beyond my imagination.
GRACE: Also joining us -- uh-oh, let`s go to the lines. Kathy in Florida. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi. Good evening, Nancy. You know, thanks to your show, we hear all about these judges doing wrong, like the judge that let that criminal go because he was too short.
GRACE: I knew you were going to say that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But do we ever hear how they`re reprimanded? The public -- we never hear.
GRACE: Well, I do know this. Liz, do we have the sound on Judge Palumbo in Yvette Cade? Pull that up for me. You`ll be happy to know, Kathy in Florida, that at least one judge we have spotlighted here actually stepped down off the bench. His name is Judge Richard Palumbo. There`s his mug shot. And he berated crime victims so horribly in court. It became public knowledge, and he finally stepped down. But Kathy, the sad part is on that one, he stepped down just before his reprimand, so he gets a lifetime pension.
But take a little taste of Judge Palumbo. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
YVETTE CADE, HUSBAND LATER SET HER ON FIRE: He`s contacting my family. He`s still contacting me. He`s intimidating my daughter. And he`s vandalizing other people`s property.
I want an immediate absolute divorce.
JUDGE RICHARD PALUMBO: I`d like to be 6-foot-5, but that`s not what we do here. You have to go to divorce court for that.
CADE: He was trying to force me to go to marriage counseling.
PALUMBO: Might not be a bad idea, if you want to save the marriage.
CADE: I don`t want to because...
PALUMBO: Well, then, you`re in the wrong place. Get a lawyer and go to divorce court. This petition is denied or dismissed.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
PALUMBO: Madam, I can`t read lips.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He broke my voice box.
PALUMBO: Didn`t I have the same problem with you last week? Did you see me last week?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
PALUMBO: And you couldn`t talk then. You`re getting worse instead of better. Do I make you nervous?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
PALUMBO: No.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And the reason that that victim couldn`t speak is because the voice box had been so, I believe, permanently damaged from the strangulation. And the judge was berating this crime victim for not speaking up in court. Now, again, Palumbo has stepped down off the bench, but we, you and me, are paying a lifetime pension for this judge. And PS, the first sound I gave you from Yvette Cade, she begged this judge for protection from an abusive husband. He told her to go home and work on her marriage. Well, her husband showed up at her office and threw gasoline on her and burned her alive in front of all of the office co-workers. She lived and she came here to tell her story. Palumbo is living on a very fat pension right now.
But let`s get back to Judge Leslie Lewis. Kathy brought up a very interesting point. Let`s go out to a former judge out of Las Vegas, "Sin City," no lack of business there, Judge Figler. Dayvid Figler is joining us, a former judge out of Vegas. Judge, in this case, regarding Judge Leslie Lewis -- Elizabeth, do we have Judge Figler?
On other occasion, not only did she have dinner with the defense team during a murder trial, gave a child molester with two prior convictions straight probation -- and catch this, Judge Figler. I don`t know if you heard about this one. A reporter found out that this judge had given straight probation to a sex offender and the reporter asked for the transcript of the proceedings. And this judge -- Leslie Lewis, people in Utah! -- threatened to hold the reporter in contempt because she wanted to see the transcript. That reporter is Kerry Birmingham (ph) out of KUTV. Threatened (ph) judge to hold the reporter in contempt because she asked for a transcript! Have you ever heard of such?
DAYVID FIGLER, FORMER JUDGE, CITY OF LAS VEGAS MUNICIPAL COURT: Well, you know, they`re just asking for trouble because especially in a state where they have elected judges, that reporter is going to be part of editorial decision on who to support for a race or thumb up or thumb down. So they do it at their own peril. But it`s absolutely beyond the pale that you`re going to go after reporters, spectators in the audience. It just doesn`t make any sense. And I think judicial temperament is obviously going to be a big issue for this judge tomorrow in the election.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at our "Star Chamber" joining us tonight. With us, Stephen Wellinghorst, Robert Damiano, Dayvid Figler, all well respected judges. Judges, are you all sitting down right now? You are? OK, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. (DELETED) would like to perform a religious baptismal ordinance for his 7-year-old daughter when she turns 8. The child has told him that the mother is not going to allow that.
LEWIS: That`s a mutual decision. The mother has custody. I think 8 is far too young to make a determination of that type.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it`s not really the 8-year-old`s decision. It`s just that`s when it`s allowable. And we`re preferring that the mother...
LEWIS: Well, you`re saying that the mom is deciding what to do and when to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
LEWIS: I`ll just share with you a personal experience. Somebody did that to me at about that age, and I have resented it for lo these many years. People are way too young at 8 or 9 years of age to make a decision of that magnitude. And the mother is not going to make a decision without the input of the father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
LEWIS: The child is too young.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
LEWIS: The child might make the decision when she`s 12. I doubt very much she`ll be favoring an early dunking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig. Did we really need to hear about her dunking, her baptism? Do judges really need to tell us their personal stories? Somebody`s carrying around a lot of baggage.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, she has a lot of anger. And this is not her own personal space. This judge needs anger management. And it also seems like she can be seduced by certain people. You just can`t say whatever you want to. That`s not her role. And it seems like she`s confusing her own issues and using her position in order to punish people.
GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez. Jean, please correct me if I`m wrong. Is it true that when she was going on this tirade about hunters killing deer -- hey, listen, Judge, where do you think that chicken came from you`ve got on your supper table tonight, all right? Somebody killed it!
But Jean, is it true that this judge had a guy just standing in the courtroom, watching, who sighed and rolled his eyes and walked out of the courtroom, arrested, put in handcuffs and put in jail?
CASAREZ: You`re just about right. This was a poaching case. And of course, poaching is a crime. But it was a bystander. It was a relative of the poacher that was just in the courtroom as a participant. And he stood up and he sort of made a sigh and walked out. And the judge didn`t like that reaction to the sentence she gave to the poacher, so she had that man come back in and put him in handcuffs, so he would just know what it felt like.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Let`s unchain the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Greg Skordas and Ray Giudice. First to you, Ray. Ex parte discussions -- have you ever had a judge call you on the phone and say, Listen, I`m going to knock 10 years off the sentence, but I`d appreciate it if you don`t mention it to the prosecution?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not yet, Nancy, but I`m waiting for that call.
(LAUGHTER)
GIUDICE: But it would be totally inappropriate. And let me just say this much. Mr. Kraft, the lawyer in this case, absolutely positively did the right thing. I know, Nancy, sometimes you don`t think we criminal defense lawyers can. But say it with me. He did the right thing. He had a terrible ethical dilemma that this judge put him in, and he did the right thing.
GRACE: What do you mean, Kraft did the right thing?
GIUDICE: Well, he -- first of all, Kraft did not instigate ex parte communication about this case. He wrote a letter to the judge saying to the judge, What did I do wrong in the courtroom that got you so aggravated, and did I jeopardize my client`s rights? She then on her own, suesponte (ph), decided to call him and call him repeatedly to cut down the sentence on her own. He then called the district attorney`s office and let them know what had happened when he found out that the sentence had been ex parte reduced. So he absolutely did the right thing.
GRACE: And joining us out of the Salt Lake City, Utah, jurisdiction where this judge sits is Greg Skordas. Response?
GREG SKORDAS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s certainly troubling that a judge would do that, although the ex parte communication clearly began with the lawyer, when he sent her a letter, saying, Was it something I said? She responded to that, I suppose to her credit...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Was that cc`ed to the district attorney`s office?
SKORDAS: No, because the lawyers that -- well, I don`t know if he did or not.
GRACE: Well, then why are you saying it`s ex parte?
SKORDAS: I`m just assuming it was because there was no conversation with the district attorney`s office about what happened after that. I think it was an attorney trying to contact a judge to find out what he could do in her courtroom the next time...
GRACE: But why would the judge ask the defense lawyer, Shh, don`t tell the prosecution?
SKORDAS: I don`t know why a judge would do that. It certainly would be troublesome for a judge to do something like that.
GRACE: Very quickly...
SKORDAS: But there`s some...
GRACE: Go ahead.
SKORDAS: Nancy, there`s something you should know about this case. One is that these weren`t 10, 10, 10-year sentences. These were 10-year- to-life sentences. These were -- and the only issue the judge had was whether to run them concurrently or consecutively. So running them concurrently, this man still has a life top...
GRACE: Question...
SKORDAS: ... and our board of pardons would make that decision.
GRACE: I appreciate that, Greg, but isn`t it true that she knocked 10 years off the sentence? Just yes, no.
SKORDAS: Absolutely not. This is a life sentence.
GRACE: She did not take 10 years off the sentence?
SKORDAS: She did not take 10 years off the sentence.
GRACE: OK. Joining us now is Roger Kraft, James Robert Scott`s attorney. Mr. Kraft, thank you for being with us. Why did you decide to go public and not keep this phone call a secret?
ROGER KRAFT, ATTORNEY FOR CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER: Well, at some point, Nancy -- I struggled with this for quite some time before I realized that there was just such an ethical dilemma here that I just couldn`t live with the way I was feeling inside and knew that somebody needed to know what was going on here because my concern was, if this was happening in my case, was this happening somewhere else, as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge explains the decision for baptism must be a joint decision between the child`s parents, then interjecting her own personal opinions.
LEWIS: I`ll just share with you a personal experience. Somebody did that to me at about that age, and I have resented it for lo these many years. People are way too young at 8 or 9 years of age to make a decision of that magnitude.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then the ruling.
LEWIS: The child is too young.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
LEWIS: The child might make the decision when she`s 12.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: In addition to vacating a death penalty sentence, slashing the sentences of child molesters and having dinner with the defense team during a murder trial, Judge Leslie Lewis, you are so in contempt! Tomorrow, the election.
First question, yes, no, Jean Casarez from Court TV. Did the judge, yes, no, slash 10 years off the sentence?
CASAREZ: Yes.
GRACE: OK. In the end, it`s going to be up to the parole board what this guy does, regardless of what the sentence is. And second, Jean Casarez, how do the elections work there in Utah for judicial elections?
CASAREZ: It`s a retention election. So yes, we will retain her, no, we won`t. And if the community votes no to not retain her, then this investigation with the judicial conduct commission will literally not go forward because it takes six to eight months to complete.
GRACE: OK. I`ve got the third district court in Utah. Where is that? Is that Salt Lake City?
CASAREZ: Yes, it is.
GRACE: OK, Salt Lake City people, take a look at Judge Lewis. The vote is tomorrow.
Out to the lines. Tasha in Kentucky. Hi, Tasha.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Bless you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question, like, for the prosecutors. Can they do more than just file complaints against this action?
GRACE: Well, let me tell you something, Tasha, that`s exactly what they did. The DA filed a complaint. The state attorney general has complained about her. And we are waiting on a result.
To Louanne in South Carolina. Hi, Louanne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for the things that you unveil on your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wondered, if she does get taken off the bench, will she go home with a nice pension, as well?
GRACE: Will she, Jean? How long has she been on the bench?
CASAREZ: She`s been on the bench 15 years. And that was my question. The judicial conduct commission...
GRACE: Hey, let`s ask Brent. Brent, will she get a pension?
ISRAELSEN: ... question. We haven`t got that far yet. She will be - - yes, I -- yes, I`m sure she would be available for some kind of a pension.
GRACE: Then she`s going to get a pension.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the wishes of the father are pitted against the wishes of the mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. (DELETED) would like to perform a religious baptismal ordinance for his 7-year-old daughter when she turns 8.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this courtroom videotape, Judge Leslie Lewis says...
LEWIS: I think 8 is far too young to make a determination of that type.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: From slashing sentences on convicted child offenders to arresting people that are just watching the court proceedings and handcuffing them, Judge Leslie Lewis in Utah, you are in contempt!
To Jean Casarez. Does the name Elroy Tillman ring a bell?
CASAREZ: Yes.
GRACE: Try to envision bludgeoning someone to death in their bed, then setting them on fire while they`re alive.
CASAREZ: Right. Convicted axe killer. He was days away from being executed. And what this judge did was, because of some newly discovered evidence, she rescinded his death sentence. There was another sentencing hearing. She gave him life with the possibility of parole. So days away, he was going to be executed, and he possibly could be on parole.
GRACE: Well, what about the victim who was burned alive in his own bed?
CASAREZ: Well, I guess that didn`t matter at that point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE LESLIE LEWIS, SALT LAKE CITY: I have a prejudice concerning deer hunters and people who kill deer and transport deer that have been shot. Have you ever actually looked at a deer when they`re alive? And it doesn`t bother you that you can see their heat beating?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
LEWIS: (INAUDIBLE) Are we boring you? Now, why did you feel the need to make such an explosive and clear indication of your displeasure or boredom at being here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have just as much rights as going out and shooting deer as you have the right of anything else.
LEWIS: What are you talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sweetheart, that`s what you said.
LEWIS: Put him into custody. I`m not going to argue with you, and you have no business chastising me, sir. And I did not make a comment that you have any right to correct. What I said is I had strong feelings and consequently was recusing myself. I don`t want to hear a word from you!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: No, actually, Judge, you asked the spectator a question. And when he answered, you had a court spectator arrested, put in handcuffs, and put in a holding cell. Judge, you are in contempt!
I`m talking about Judge Leslie Lewis. And, oh, how I wish, Judge -- Utah judge, Salt Lake City election tomorrow, Utah -- how I wish Judge Lewis cared that much about child molestation victims and murder victims, because those offenders don`t get arrested and thrown in jail. They get cut loose to walk scot-free.
Joining us right now is the defense attorney on one of those such cases. This guy`s sentence was slashed by 10 years, and the judge allegedly called this defense attorney in secret and tried to alter court documents and slash the sentence by a solid decade. This is a man charged with 20 counts of child molestation.
Out to Roger Kraft, who agonized over going public and letting the world know the judge had called him, Roger, thank you for being with us, James Robert Scott`s attorney. A lot of people disagree with you outing the judge. Why did you finally decide to do it?
ROGER KRAFT, ATTORNEY FOR CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER: Well, I guess, at the end of the day, it comes down to, what are you made of? And I have to go home at the end of the day, and I have to look at my wife, and I have to look at my children. And I`m not going to have them learn someday that their dad was part of some kind of a conspiracy or some other wrongful act. It was a gut feeling.
GRACE: So then the bottom line, Roger, when the state, when the prosecution would ultimately have found out that the sentence had been slashed without their knowledge by 10 years, you know all hell would break loose. And if they then found out that you had an ex parte or secret communication with the judge, you`d be in the frying pan, too.
KRAFT: Well, that was always a possibility. I don`t think it was a probability here, but it was always a possibility.
GRACE: You know what? You may be right about that. This sentence may have been changed, and no one ever noticed, onto the next felony. You know what? You`re absolutely right about that. There`s certainly no lack of business when it comes to felony cases. I doubt they`d be looking back to see what happened to your client on a guilty plea. Did you ever hear from the judge after this went public?
KRAFT: I have not heard from the judge to this point. I don`t expect to.
GRACE: Mr. Kraft, did she actually ask you not to tell the prosecution she was slashing the sentence?
KRAFT: Well, at least twice during the conversation that we had, she said, "I would appreciate it if you don`t mention this to the prosecutor." And that`s what really set the red flags up. I do think it`s important that people know she did not call me for this purpose. She called me to apologize. And I think, in her defense, people should know that. She called to apologize for how she treated me in her courtroom, and the nature of the discussion...
GRACE: That`s not really helping her that much. Wait, what did she - - what happened in court with you?
KRAFT: Well, it was the unprofessional conduct that I believe she used when she was dealing with me in the sentence of my client. I couldn`t get a word in edgewise; I tried to make an argument on behalf of my client. She found the fact that he had been molested as a young boy an aggravating factor in his sentence instead of a mitigating factor.
GRACE: That should be mitigating.
KRAFT: And so we ended up in a fairly heavily spirited debate. And I just felt that the way she had treated me was improper, and that`s what the letter was for. It wasn`t an ex parte communication. The letter that I wrote the judge explicitly stated this is not discussing the sentence of my client. I believe the court was within its right to sentence him what they did. I just didn`t think they treated me fairly.
GRACE: Question: When you wrote the letter to the judge, was it also sent to the district attorney? Was it supposed to go into the trial record file?
KRAFT: No, this was a personal communication with the judge saying, "Judge, this is what I experienced the other day in your courtroom. I didn`t appreciate it. I believe I deserve more. I understand the court`s frustration with these kinds of cases, but please at least let me make an argument." And then the end of the letter invited the judge, "If you want to give me some pointers for the next time I appear in front of you, please feel free to contact me."
GRACE: Can I ask you a personal question? Did you get paid on that case?
KRAFT: I did get paid.
GRACE: OK, I`m going somewhere with this. Let me connect it up, as lawyers always say to the judge in front of the jury.
Let`s unchain the lawyers again, Liz. Joining us, Ray Giudice of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and Greg Skordas out of Salt Lake city. Ray, have you ever gotten paid for a case, and you think you`ve got a good argument, as best as you can make, and you go in, and the judge just treats you like dirt, and your client`s standing there besides you going, "Who have I hired? Have I totally thrown away $5,000?" The lawyer can`t even get a word in, when the judge is just totally ripping you up in court?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, there are those times when you say left and the judge says right, and you can`t make that connection, that intellectual connection, with the bench, or maybe they can`t make it with the lawyer, and you just don`t feel like you`re being effective for your client. I really think at the heart of what Mr. Kraft was doing was not an ex parte communication about the substance of this case, but just saying, "How can I, Judge, do a better job for my clients in your courtroom?" And I think that`s totally permissible.
GRACE: That`s a nice way of saying, "Why did you rip me open in front of my client who just paid me out in the hall?" Well-put, Ray Giudice.
To you, Greg Skordas, I`m very concerned about this having dinner with the defense team during a murder trial.
GREG SKORDAS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, and that was certainly brought out. The jurors weren`t aware of it. The prosecution wasn`t prejudiced by it, and there was no issue on appeal that dealt with that at all.
GRACE: Well, how do you know that?
SKORDAS: Because there was nothing ever brought up about it, in terms of the appeal or any follow-up, in terms of evidence that showed that that was -- in any way affected the trial. On its face, it`s bad, and I don`t want to defend that. But during the course of a trial, judges and attorneys talk. We go into chambers. We go have coffee.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me get something straight, Mr. Skordas. You go ex parte with the judge without the other side during a trial and have coffee with the judge?
SKORDAS: No, the judge usually invites the attorneys while juries are deliberating to visit and talk. You`re right, Nancy.
GRACE: But that`s with both sides there. Oh, yes, you certainly better have that cup of coffee with the judge.
SKORDAS: Right. And I know what you`re saying. I mean, really, it`s not something I`m going to sit here and defend that she would go and have dinner with a defense attorney during the course of a trial. Luckily I wasn`t the defense attorney...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I smell something really rotten. It`s stinking pretty bad, Mr. Skordas. And it`s the judge. It`s Judge Leslie Lewis.
SKORDAS: This is a judge, though, Nancy, that is friendly with the community. She`s active in a lot of lawyer activities in our county and our State Bar Association. And it`s not uncommon for her to socialize with attorneys and, unfortunately, that might include attorneys who are in her court. And that certainly raises the perception there`s something amiss. But I can assure you that, in that case, there was no -- ever -- anything brought out that that communication affected the trial, or the rights of the client, or the rights of the state and the victim.
GRACE: Well, was there a conviction?
SKORDAS: I believe it was a conviction.
GRACE: Well, that means the defense certainly isn`t going to bring it up on their appeal, that they had diner with the judge. So bottom line is, we`ll really never know what happened, because nobody`s going to bring it up on appeal because there was a conviction. The defense certainly isn`t going to argue it. They`re the ones out having the t-bone steak.
Let`s go to Renee in California. Hi, Renee.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m fine, dear. What`s your question? Are you voting tomorrow?
CALLER: Yes, I am.
GRACE: OK, what`s your question?
CALLER: My question is, the more I hear this, the more I get upset about these judges. Can the victims sue, like this one judge that we`re paying the pension for the rest of his life, if one judge for the defense and not hear the prosecution`s case? I mean, or dinner with the prosecutor? Can they sue?
GRACE: Well, bottom line, the answer is most likely no. And, Greg Skordas, wouldn`t you say something akin to sovereign immunity?
SKORDAS: Yes.
GRACE: It`s going to be very difficult to sue a judge. In other words, the state, be it a police officer, the governor, or a judge can do no wrong. That`s sovereign immunity. Tough, tough attempt for a victim to sue a judge.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Still moaning in pain, Eduardo Vargas pleads for his daughter`s safe return. He shows us where he was repeatedly stabbed in the chest as his 4-year-old daughter, Jessica, was snatched from his arms. The pain is nothing compared to his heartache: His daughter Jessica is missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In Sanford, Florida, a father is attacked, nearly fatally, all in an effort to get his 4-year-old daughter away from him. She has now been kidnapped. To the editor of the "Sanford Herald," Steve Parity is with us.
Steve, what happened?
STEVE PARADIS, EDITOR, "SANFORD HERALD": Well, Nancy, this is what we know. On Saturday night, just before 10:00, a woman named Leticia Martinez and four men knocked on the door of an apartment here in Sanford, and police said Leticia demanded the return of her daughter. That`s Jessica Vargas Beatriz, who is 4.
And Jessica, the daughter, who was with her biological father, Eduardo Vargas, he was in the apartment and refused to hand her over. A fight ensued, and four men in the apartment, including the father, were stabbed in the fight. And one of the men who lived in the apartment, a guy named Osman Riviera Alvardo (ph), 29 years old, he died later in the hospital.
GRACE: Right. To Marc Klaas, president of Beyond Missing, what`s your take on the case?
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER OF BEYOND MISSING: Well, first of all, if ever a case has risen to the level of Amber Alert, this would be it, yet no Amber Alert was issued. I mean, my goodness, somebody died.
This is really interesting in that this is something that`s going to be dealt with in the Latino community. The mother was just up from Mexico. The father doesn`t speak English. What we need in this country and what we have at Beyond Missing, quite frankly, are Spanish-language flyers, and we need outreach to Spanish-language media, Telemundo and all of those amazing radio stations that exist, particularly along the border area.
People have to understand that there are 20 million American citizens who speak Spanish as a primary language. And we have to be able to get into those, you know, into those homes with Spanish-language flyers and with Spanish-language alerts, because that`s where the case exists, and that`s where the case will be solved.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop and former fed with the FBI, Mike, I believe this child is still alive. What I don`t understand is why police are not naming the biological mom as a suspect. You`ve got somebody stabbed to death on the apartment floor. The father is stabbed in the chest. He nearly dies, by the way. And the baby`s gone.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Yes, I think the baby`s still alive, too, Nancy. And they have put out a lookout for her and the compact car that she was last seen in leaving the apartment.
Apparently, she came there. It sounds to me like it was planned. She came there with four men to get the baby back. And she was going to get that baby back one way or the other, Nancy. Four people stabbed, one fatally. Then, she left with one of the stabbers and the child in this white compact car that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement has put a lookout for.
The other car, gone, don`t have a good lookout on that, as of yet. But they`re going to need also contact the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, and work with them, because, number one, are these people who were involved in this, did they come into the country legally? Are they going to have any fingerprints on file?
They`re going to go ahead and do the crime scene of the apartment, and I`m sure they`re going to glean some evidence from there. But is there anything to compare that evidence to, Nancy? I`m talking about fingerprint evidence and those kinds of things.
GRACE: Well, back to Marc Klaas. Marc, this isn`t just about the kidnapping of a child, because I believe the mother has the child. This is a murder. This is a stabbing death where a guy was left to bleed to death on the apartment floor.
KLAAS: Yes, that`s absolutely correct. And I think, again, that`s why this should have been an immediate Amber Alert. But what we have now is a little girl who was in the custody of somebody who is willing to kill. And I mean, my goodness, if there`s ever been a child endangered, it`s this child.
One would hope that they would have alerts out on the borders so that this individual could be caught if they`re trying to get across the border. And, again, certainly, you know, get this stuff out into the Latino community, because this truly is where this case is going to be solved, and obviously sooner rather than later. We know that, as time goes on, it becomes more and more difficult to recover these children alive. The probability goes down greatly.
GRACE: Well, of course, if a child is traveling with a murderer, Jean Casarez, with Court TV, what else can you tell us?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: You know, Nancy, there`s a lot of crimes here. You`ve got kidnapping. You`ve got murder. You`ve got various theories of that murder, felony murder or premeditation. You could have a death case.
And this mother, the family is from Mexico, so they could be traveling toward the border. We know how Mexico feels about extraditing someone that is facing the death penalty. So one reason they could not be naming her as a suspect, just focusing in on the care of the child is because of that concern, that she could be fleeing to Mexico and they will never get her back.
GRACE: Out to the lines, William in Texas. Hi, William. Hi, dear, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hello. I was wondering how effective is the Amber Alert as to when people actually -- or have the kids that are out there, that actually be put on the Amber Alert, how effective is it?
GRACE: You mean does it work? Yes, until these people cross the Mexican border, Marc Klaas, I think Amber Alert is very helpful.
KLAAS: Well, I think an Amber Alert can even be effective in Mexico, but I think the whole Amber Alert concept has gotten a little bit out of whack, because what you have to do is you have to put the child in the middle of any kind of an Amber Alert distribution, whether it`s via radio stations, television stations, flyers out to service stations, et cetera.
And if you do that, and you create a 200- to 400-mile radius, you`re going to have a much greater chance of recovering the child than if you just go on a state-based system.
GRACE: So bottom line, it is effective. And there is no Amber Alert here.
To psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig, what effect is this going to have on a 4-year-old little girl that saw her father stabbed in the chest, saw another man stabbed to death?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s very dramatic and very traumatizing. And 4-year-olds can remember what goes on in their history, especially seeing the father in pain. And if the mother was somehow involved in this, it`s going to put her right in the middle. So this is very dangerous for a child. And, also, we don`t know what the mother`s going to do with the child, if the child (INAUDIBLE) that`s what concerns me.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... the relationship with these guys that would stab her husband and leave her for dead?
LUDWIG: She obviously had some relationship with them. And in some cases, when women get violent, they use men to do the dirty work for them, due to physical size or just not wanting to do it themselves.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... that I received -- I got hurt, and then everything was over. I came out last. I didn`t see anything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A father stabbed, nearly fatally; another man dead. The objective? To get the 4-year-old daughter away. And tonight, the possible suspect: the baby`s mother. That`s right. Take a look, these two on the run, we believe with four other males.
Jean Casarez, question for Marc Klaas?
CASAREZ: Yes, I do. Thanks, Nancy. Marc, I had a question about the Amber Alert. Are there any criteria for what has to be in place in order to issue that alert?
GRACE: Can it be domestic?
KLAAS: Well, yes, there absolutely is. You have to have a child of a certain age. She certainly fits that criteria. The child`s life has to be endangered, and you need to have information that you can share with the public so they can help recover the child.
So have you suspects; you have the mother; you have the vehicle; you have a little girl; you have a dead man; and you have a father that`s been stabbed three times. And I think we have to point out that you get these little kids into Mexico and it becomes extremely difficult to recover them.
GRACE: And, Dr. Robi Ludwig, what were you saying about women getting men to do their dirty work? I mean, I can`t imagine, "Hey, can you go stab my ex?"
LUDWIG: Oh, but there are many women, they`re very angry, they`re enraged. They feel they don`t have the physical size to actually do the damage, so they manipulate men or pay men to do the job for them.
GRACE: And to Mike Brooks. Any chance of apprehending this bunch before they get to Mexico?
BROOKS: There could be, Nancy. But, again, trying to identify who these people are is going to be the most difficult part I see in this particular case. And the other thing is, we`re going to need to find out also if this woman has any kind of bank records. Does she have a cell phone account that we can try to maybe track the cell phone traffic on to exactly where she`s going? As we`ve talked about in other cases, you can track it, as long as the phone is on. And we follow the pinging, and it might lead right to her.
GRACE: Thank you, Robi and Mike. Tip line: 1-800-423-TIPS.
Let`s stop to remember Army Private First Class Nathan Frigo, just 23, Kokomo, Indiana. Enlisting straight out of high school, he was awarded the Purple Heart and Bronze Star. He leaves behind a loving family, sister, Sarah. Nathan Frigo, American hero.
Thanks to our guests. Our biggest thank you, to you, for inviting us into your homes. And tonight, happy birthday to the show mascot, Rob Farfan. Isn`t he handsome? Happy birthday, Rob Farfan. See you guys tomorrow night. Please vote. And until tomorrow, goodnight, friend.
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