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Rumsfeld Steps Down; Rumsfeld Resignation Opens Up Uncertainty For Iraqi Political Leaders; Former Secretary Of Defense William Cohen Interview; Democratic Candidate Declares Victory in Virginia; Tester Projected as Winner in Missouri Senate Race; Recounts Possible in Two States?
Aired November 08, 2006 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Don Lemon, here with Kyra Phillips in the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.
The GOP stumbles and the Pentagon rumbles. The bottom line, Donald Rumsfeld is out as secretary of defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now after a series of thoughtful conversations, Secretary Rumsfeld and I agreed that the timing is right for new leadership at the Pentagon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The president -- well, the president dropped this bombshell a day after his Capitol Hill advantaged crater (ph). The GOP lost its House majority in a big way and the Senate still a question mark. In truth, Mr. Bush said the Rumsfeld decision has been in the works for a while despite repeated and adamant promises that Rumsfeld was staying on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I didn't want to inject a major decision about this war in the final days of a campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And Mr. Bush also took pains to clarify what has clearly been a painful decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: To our enemies, do not be joyful. Do not confuse the workings of our democracies with a lack of will.
Our nation is committed to bringing you to justice. Liberty and democracy are the source of America's strength, and liberty and democracy will lift up the hopes and desires of those you are trying to destroy.
To the people of Iraq, do not be fearful. As you take the difficult steps toward democracy and peace, America's going to stand with you. We know you want a better way of life, and now is the time to seize it.
To our brave men and women in uniform, don't be doubtful. America will always support you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And reaction now from the Pentagon.
Let's head to Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, reaction from there.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, I can tell you that this came as a bit of a surprise here at the Pentagon, considering the misdirection that President Bush gave last week when he indicated that he expected Donald Rumsfeld to stay until the end of his administration.
The president admitting today that during the last week, he had been reconsidering the tenure of Donald Rumsfeld, and actually had come to the decision before yesterday's election results were clear that Donald Rumsfeld would be replaced, in his words, one way or another, that Bob Gates would replace him, the former CIA director.
I can tell you that most of the people at the Pentagon found out the news this morning as they came in to work during various briefings and phone calls that took place in the course of the morning. Donald Rumsfeld always said that he served at the pleasure of President Bush, indicated that he would not be stepping down voluntarily, but the president said after mutual discussions with Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, it was agreed that his replacement would bring a fresh perspective to the Iraq policy.
The president also today conceding that progress in Iraq has not been fast enough and that the message sent by the American people in yesterday's elections were a clear signal that they expected more results.
The president called it "a thumpin'" that the Republicans took at the polls yesterday. And he said now it is incumbent upon him to work with the Democrats to forge a way forward.
And a couple of unanswered questions. We don't know exactly where Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is at this moment or whether he is still technically the defense secretary until Bob Gates is confirmed. They have not told us the effective time of his resignation.
LEMON: Yes, that was my next question. But you have answered that. It seems yesterday the president saying in his news conference that he met with the secretary of defense and decided that he would take his resignation, but no word yet or no sight of Donald Rumsfeld.
MCINTYRE: You know, obviously -- obviously, usually when these kinds of things happen, the person stays on until the next person is in place. However, there is a deputy defense secretary that can take over if Rumsfeld steps away. And they may want to make a clean break.
So, we've asked the Pentagon for clarification on those two points. When exactly did Defense Secretary Rumsfeld stop being Defense Secretary Rumsfeld? And will we hear from him at all today? Presumably, he is in Washington, but we haven't seen him in the building.
LEMON: Jamie McIntyre, thank you, sir.
PHILLIPS: Let's get straight to Capitol Hill now. Andrea Koppel with reaction to the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld.
A lot of talk that this wasn't going to happen. That's sort of what the buzz was, Andrea, at the very beginning. And that even though the Democrats were taking the majority, that it wasn't going to force Rumsfeld out. And I guess we still really haven't really answered that, whether if, indeed, that's what led to this or not.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, Kyra.
In fact, I ran into the Senate minority leader, Harry Reid, in the hallway after we all learned the news. And I said, "Are you surprised by this?" And he said, "Well, President Bush is very stubborn, and we've been calling for this change in civilian leadership for some time."
Nevertheless, despite what President Bush said during his press conference, that he doesn't necessarily think that Iraq was the force that Democrats believe it was in the election, Democrats beg to differ. We believe, they say, that they have a mandate from the American people, not just for change over a broad spectrum of issues, but specifically on Iraq. And we heard that from the speaker-elect, Nancy Pelosi, this morning, who made very clear right out of the gate that she expected to see a change in the civilian leadership.
Now, shortly after she made those on-camera comments, her office got a call, we're told, from Josh Bolten, the chief of staff from over at the White House, to her office saying that this move was in place. And after that there was a press conference in which Speaker-Elect Pelosi and Harry Reid were asked for their reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: So I welcome this change. I think it will give a fresh start to finding a solution to Iraq rather than staying the course.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: If the vote of last night from all over America didn't accomplish anything but this, it was a good night. But we accomplished far more than this.
And I recognize that the country is going to be well served with the new secretary of defense. I look forward to working with that person. But also, I look to working with the president to see if the new secretary of defense will help work to change course in Iraq. We have to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: And there's additional reaction from the man who is likely to be the next chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Ike Skelton, in a statement saying that he thinks it's critical that this change be more than just a different face on an old policy.
Clearly, Kyra, Democrats believe that the White House, President Bush, perhaps even Secretary Rumsfeld, saw the writing on the wall, saw that with a majority in the House, there were going to be subpoenas, there were going to be hearings, and new chairman, obviously, of these committees, and perhaps even over in the Senate.
So the red meat was thrown to the wolves, and President Bush hoping to start off with a clean slate with this new Congress -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. Andrea Koppel on the Hill. We'll continue to go back to you for reaction on the resignation.
LEMON: Now for insight. And if anyone could offer some insight on this it would be this next person, former secretary of defense William Cohen. He joins us now on the phone.
And I understand, Mr. Cohen, you're in New Delhi?
WILLIAM COHEN, FMR. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: That's right.
LEMON: Now, if my memory serves me right, when you were secretary of defense during the Clinton era, during the Clinton years, there was sort of the same reverse situation where there was a Republican House. Tell us maybe the reasoning behind why the secretary of defense may have made this announcement now.
COHEN: Well, I think it's pretty clear that the vote that took place on Tuesday was largely in response to the situation in Iraq. I think that there was little doubt in my mind and that of most people that that was a dominant factor.
And I'm sure that Secretary Rumsfeld, looking into the future, would see that there was a likelihood of great contention over the continuation of the policy in Iraq. That with the possibility at that point, at least, of the House becoming the majority and maybe even the Senate, that he would be looking forward to a lengthy interrogation during committee hearings and responding to investigations.
And I think that he, in his own mind, felt that that would not serve the country well. And as he's pointed out on two occasions, he had offered to resign in the past. This time, given the political reality of what was taking place, I think that it was much more well received by the president under those circumstances.
LEMON: So do you think that given what you know about this, do you think that it was all his decision, or do you think that it was a mutual decision between he and the president? Or the president said, hey, you know, listen, the people have spoken, so maybe it's time for you to go?
COHEN: It's hard to say. It could be a combination of both.
This is an exhausting job to begin with. I think anyone who serves longer than four years really is pressing it in terms of the physical demands made by the job, intellectual demands.
I think that a six-year term under the circumstances, when you're in a major conflict as we are in Iraq, is very draining. And I think that, in combination with the reality of the president needing to have the support of Congress and moving forward, not only led to the -- a joint decision under these circumstances, but it's anyone's guess.
I think it really is important to factor in the Jim Baker element here that you now have a senior official from the Bush 41 administration working with, potentially Bob Gates, who has certainly the confidence of President Bush 41, and apparently President Bush, that he will carry out the job in really fine fashion.
LEMON: Mr. Cohen...
COHEN: So I expect the -- I would expect the...
LEMON: ... go into more detail about that for our viewers, about the Jim Baker era and what you mean by that.
COHEN: Well, Jim Baker, I would expect that Jim Baker is going to come forward with a proposal that will at least alter the approach that's currently being taken and join with Lee Hamilton. They will present a bipartisan proposal.
LEMON: Right. The report that's expected out, right.
COHEN: I'm sorry?
LEMON: The report that's expected out soon, by the first of the year.
COHEN: Yes. That report that is expected, I think, is being looked forward -- all those on Capitol Hill looking forward to this report, saying this is at least an opportunity for a fresh look at how we resolve the situation and our presence in Iraq. That proposal, in combination with having a new secretary of defense, I think is going to give President Bush an opportunity to at least have a bipartisan consensus around that policy.
Right now he does not have it, and that would make it that much more difficult for him to go forward. And frankly, it would not be fair to our troops who are out there fighting and putting their lives on the line every day.
So the combination of the report Baker report -- Baker/Hamilton report, now with a proposed Bob Gates as secretary of defense, I think gives President Bush have an opportunity to have the country and the Congress behind a policy which he doesn't have right now.
LEMON: All right. Thank you.
Former secretary of defense William Cohen.
Thank you so much for joining us.
LEMON: Let's get back to Baghdad.
Our Aneesh Raman getting reaction there.
Aneesh, who have you had a chance to speak with, more Iraqis, U.S. military troops?
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kyra, we're getting a mix of everything. This is big news here.
Donald Rumsfeld really defined this war up until today. Iraqis perhaps know him second only to President Bush. The news was carried on at least two major television stations here.
There will be two groups that are digesting this. The first, of course, the Iraqi people, among Iraqi society. For them, change will be good.
I was out this morning talking to Iraqis, getting them to react to the Democratic victory in the House. For a lot of them, they only knew that the Democrats weren't Republicans, that's all they knew about the party. But they were happy the change in Washington is taking place, hopeful that that would mean there would be change in Baghdad, that the violence could somehow be stopped, that security forces could somehow stand up.
They will perhaps see this as more of that change, as more rationale for why things here might now get better.
Of course then for the Iraqi political leaders it's a whole separate thing. There will be a lot of late-night phone calls tonight. We're trying to get in touch with as many as we can.
For them, this opens up a great deal of uncertainty. American pressure has been sustained on this government. They know that the Democratic Party has talked about increased pressure on the Iraqi prime minister.
There have been suggestions within the Democratic Party that Iraq should be partitioned into three segments with the Shia, Sunni and Kurds having essentially their own areas with a strong central government dividing the oil revenues. So the Iraqi prime minister will now be looking to Washington to figure out what's going to come next in terms of the pressure he's going to get.
And interestingly, Kyra, earlier today, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, met with Iraqi politicians, trying to appease any fears they might have had after the midterm elections. A dramatic change was on the way.
One can only presume he was unaware that this announcement was going to come. He is now, as we understand, speaking on Iraqi television. We'll wait to see what he's saying.
But among the Iraqi people, again, a sense perhaps a change of any kind is good, that it can't stay as it is among the politicians, a sense of uncertainty. And then, of course you've got the U.S. troops here.
Our own John Roberts is embedded with U.S. troops. He was telling us a short time ago that they don't want to publicly comment because it's a civilian change, but off camera some of them are saying that this might be a good thing.
It takes away a distraction that is -- that was Donald Rumsfeld, criticism that had been mounting within the country, and refocuses perhaps efforts. And they will now be thinking to themselves undoubtedly how this change is going to affect what they do on a day- to-day basis here.
Increasing frustration among U.S. troops that they're getting caught in the middle of sectarian strife that started back February 22nd, that Shia mosque bombing. So they're going to be looking to see if any of what they do on the ground will start to change -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Just real quickly, Aneesh -- and I don't know if you know the answer to this -- but whether it's ambassadors or members of the Iraqi government, do you know if any of them have met with Robert Gates. If confirmed by the Senate, as we know, Dr. Robert Michael Gates, former director of the CIA, will replace Donald Rumsfeld as the secretary of defense. He's currently the president of Texas A&M University.
Do you know if he's made any trips to Iraq, if he has met with any of these leaders in Iraq?
RAMAN: I do not. I think that a lot of these leaders, of course, while he was in those positions, were not here. A lot of Iraqi politicians were out of the country during the time of Saddam.
I don't know if they meet with him as exile groups previously, but I think they'll see him -- at least the people will and a lot of the members of government who might have had some distaste with how Donald Rumsfeld was prosecuting this war, they will see this replacement as perhaps someone more willing to re-look at the strategy.
But Iraqis have been -- and we've seen it in the contentious relationship in the past few weeks -- Iraqi leaders feeling pressure from the U.S. and eager to point out that they are the ones running this sovereign country, that they are the ones that are going to have to figure out how to make Iraq stand up on its own.
And as we see the American public vote for change in Iraq, these are the public and the politicians that are affected by it. And it will be very interesting to see now, as we have a confirmation hearing, as we have questions raised by a Democratic House, how Iraqis start to digest that and how Iraqi politicians are going to struggle with the fact that they're now caught in the middle of it -- Kyra. PHILLIPS: Aneesh Raman, live from Baghdad.
Thanks, Aneesh.
LEMON: All right. We have some information just coming in.
President Bush will hold a press conference with -- I don't know if you call him former secretary of defense or secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, and the incoming secretary of defense, Gates. That's at 3:30.
Let's bring in Kathleen Koch, who's at the White House, to tell us more about this -- Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, the president himself hinted at this in his press conference at 1:00 p.m., that he would be appearing later this afternoon here at the White House with both Robert Gates, the incoming defense secretary, and Donald Rumsfeld. And we have now confirmed that that will be at 3:30 p.m.
Assuming that will be in the Oval Office. That's generally where the president makes these sorts of appearances.
And just a very, very dramatic announcement by the president this afternoon, relenting finally from the -- to these demands from both the Republicans, Democrats, even his one-time chief of staff, Andy Card, that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stepped down. The president, again, making the announcement that Robert Gates, a former CIA director, would be filling his shoes.
And the move came in part to meet public demand for change, a new direction in Iraq. But -- so that's the dramatic action that the president is taking.
We've been getting some swift reaction from Democrats. The e- mails came pouring in fast and furious. I'll just read you a couple of quick quotes.
Senator Charles Schumer saying, "Yesterday's election was a cry for change. For the first time it looks like the president is listening."
We'll be getting more reaction throughout the day. And what you're also listening to is cries for change from protesters outside the gates. About 20 protesters led by Cindy Sheehan, antiwar protester.
LEMON: Yes, we can hear them.
And you sort of touched on this. In talking about staying the course, he said, "Maybe I should have done a better job of explaining," then he also went on and said, "I am frustrated, too. I wish it could have gone faster. I am disappointed. I wish we had made more progress."
Did you take note of the language during this press conference? KOCH: Well, it was certainly very interesting language that the president, appearing more contrite, appearing to adopt some of the language that he had in the weeks before he really went out hard and fast on the campaign trail, where he was trying to make Americans understand that he got it, that he shared their frustration with the war in Iraq. So, again, the president hearing the cry loud and clear from the American people for a change in Iraq.
LEMON: Kathleen, thank you so much.
And we have that news conference again. I want to reiterate, a news conference coming up with Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, and the incoming secretary of defense, Robert Gates. And that's expected to happen at about 3:30 Eastern.
PHILLIPS: Close races, recounts, election glitches. Some decisions could come down to the courts. Our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, will weigh in on the midterms straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Lots of developing news here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
CNN projects Democrat Jon Tester is the winner in the Montana Senate race. Montana's secretary of state has not officially declared a winner, but reports that Tester leads by more than 3,000 votes. There's one precinct outstanding with a maximum of 500 votes and 1,000 provisional ballots.
Now, this brings the Senate balance of power to 50 for the Democrats, 49 for the Republicans. The only state that still hangs in the balance is Virginia, where Democratic challenger Jim Webb has a slim edge over Republican incumbent George Allen. If Democrats win in Virginia, they will be in charge of the Senate.
PHILLIPS: CNN adds two more projections. Republican Rhode Island governor Don Carcieri has held on for a second term.
And on the West Coast, California voters have rejected Proposition 85. It would have required doctors to notify a parent or guardian when an unmarried girl younger than 18 sought an abortion.
LEMON: All eyes on Virginia. A close vote, a potential recount and control of the Senate at stake. We're live from Richmond straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.
PHILLIPS: Plus, our top story, the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld. We expect a live statement from Bush, Rumsfeld and Gates, the man set to replace him if confirmed by the Senate, 3:30 Eastern Time.
Live coverage right here from the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: What a day for news. Two major events centered on Washington, but with huge implications around the world.
Democrats win control of at least one House of Congress, maybe both. And now word of a shakeup at the Pentagon. Donald Rumsfeld, the second longest serving defense secretary in history is out. A decision, the president says, was mutual.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Secretary Rumsfeld and I agreed that sometimes it's necessary to have a fresh perspective. And Bob Gates will bring a fresh perspective.
He'll also bring great managerial experience. And he is -- I had a good talk with him on Sunday in Crawford. I hadn't -- it took me a while to be able to sit down and visit with him. And I did, and I found him to be of like mind.
He understands we're in a global war against these terrorists. He understands that defeat is not an option in Iraq. And I believe it's important that there be a fresh perspective, and so does Secretary Rumsfeld.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I submitted my resignation to President Bush twice during that period. And I told him that I felt that he ought to make the decision as to whether or not I stayed on. And he made that decision and said he did want me to stay on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: The president's choice to replace Rumsfeld is Robert Gates, CIA director under the elder President Bush in the early '90s.
LEMON: He envisioned an Iraq campaign like a lightning strike, faster and lighter than any other American force before it. He planned well, but many of Donald Rumsfeld's former generals and critics say he failed to devise a post-war plan and refused to acknowledge that keeping the peace would take far more troops.
Here's a portion of "CNN PRESENTS" documentary, "Rumsfeld, Man of War".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK SESNO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Take out Saddam Hussein and his military while preventing him from using the weapons of mass destruction we're told he has. Do it while preserving Iraq's infrastructure and securing its oil fields. Do it all faster and with fewer troops than anyone, especially Saddam, thought possible. That was Donald Rumsfeld's challenge.
He'd win the battle, but winning the peace would be another matter.
So what happened? How did we get here?
Despite more than three years of work to rebuild and repair, write a constitution, form a government, create an Iraqi security force, insurgency and sectarian bloodletting have brought Iraq to the edge of civil war. Critics say the problem began with a war plan that looking back was fatally flawed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They spent over a year working on that war plan, yet they devoted overwhelmingly, probably 90 to 95 percent of their energy, to the 10 percent problem, how do I get to Baghdad? And they devoted almost no serious thought to the more important question, what do I do once I get there?
SESNO: In fact, the Pentagon's post-war planning didn't begin in earnest until less than two months before the invasion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Frank, we did not have a campaign plan beyond the day when we took down Saddam Hussein to win in Iraq.
SESNO: Former General John Batiste commanded the 1st Infantry Division. The Army's famed Big Red One. He's emerged as one of Rumsfeld's toughest critics and called on him to resign.
JOHN BATISTE, FMR. U.S. GENERAL: We're in a real fix right now. We're there because Secretary Donald Rumsfeld ignored sound military advice, dismissed it all, and went with his plan and his plan alone.
SESNO: Rumsfeld's plan was to follow the same model that had been established and was working in Afghanistan: replace the government and establish democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was Rumsfeld's concept. We're not doing the nation building big-time. We're enabling them to do it, and we're encouraging other nations to come in afterwards.
SESNO: Reducing troop strength fast was part of the plan from the beginning.
PAUL BREMER, FORMER HEAD OF COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: I showed drawing down, by almost two-thirds, the number of troops I think we had. America had 1630,000, 170,000 there when I got there, and they were going to draw down to 60,000 by September.
SESNO: Heated debate over troop strength had been going on behind the scenes. But less than one month before the war began, it burst into public view.
Army chief of staff, General Eric Shinseki testified before Congress and was pressed on the post war needs of Iraq. His unscripted comments reflected his opinion but directly contradicted what the Pentagon was advertising.
GEN. ERIC SHINSEKI (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are probably a figure that would be required.
SESNO: Rumsfeld's relationship with Shinseki was already strained. The general's testimony got a public rebuke.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The notion that it will take several hundred thousand U.S. troops to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq are wildly off the mark.
SESNO: According to generals who were there, Shinseki was called on the carpet in private, as well. Word spread.
MAJ. GEN. PAUL EATON (RET.), U.S. ARMY: It was deplorable, absolutely deplorable.
At the Kirkuk military training base...
SESNO: Former Army General Paul Eaton trained the new Iraqi military from May 2003 to June 2004. He, too, has called for Rumsfeld to step down. He says the Shinseki incident had a chilling effect.
EATON: We -- we got the message.
SESNO (on camera): Which was?
EATON: If you speak up and give your best advice, and it's counter to what is coming out of the third deck E-ring, then you're going to have a problem.
SESNO: And that was Rumsfeld's military?
EATON: And that is Rumsfeld's military, and that is the loyal -- it's not loyalty. It's fealty that he demands.
SESNO (voice-over): Eaton reflects what many critics charge about Rumsfeld's management style and the decisions that comes out of it: that Rumsfeld doesn't listen, doesn't like dissent, dismisses ideas that differ from his own.
(on camera) A lot of the rap, TV, books, articles -- you've read all these things -- is that he wants to be surrounded by yes-men.
GEN. PETER PACE, CHAIRMAN OF JOINT CHIEFS: Absolutely.
SESNO: That would make you one of those yes-man.
PACE: That's an absolute fallacy. This man is a wrestler. He loves body contact. He loves mental body contact. He wants people to push back.
SESNO: Where have you done that?
PACE: I've done it many times.
SESNO (voice-over): But anyone who's been in the room with Rumsfeld will tell you can take him on, but you'd better be prepared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you briefed him and he knew more about the subject than you, you're on a boat with no paddles.
SESNO: It's a demanding management style that can be intimidating even for people who have been to war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were the generals tough enough? Well, some of them were and some of them weren't. If you're not willing to stand up to the secretary of defense and give your input and take your hits, then you shouldn't be there.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't know.
SESNO: But it's a style that carries risks. John Riggs is another former Army general who's called for Rumsfeld to be replaced.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you press the military like the generals so hard, they will eventually say, "Yes, sir, Mr. Secretary, three bags full. We'll take what you've given us, and we'll do the best we can with it."
SESNO (on camera): All this stuff out there that Donald Rumsfeld throws people out of the office if they disagree with him.
(voice-over) I put the issue directly to the secretary.
(on camera) If somebody come in and slam the desk and say, "You're wrong."
RUMSFELD: You've got it.
SESNO: And you say?
RUMSFELD: I say, "Why? Explain it. Make your case. Let's hear it." I've got no problem with that. I've been, you know -- I've been wrong many times.
And I've had more people come in and do that and say, "Look, we've gone through this. We simply -- you need to understand this. My view of this is this, and your view is that."
And I say, "Talk about it. Tell me about it." And we've ended up adjusting or changing or calibrating.
SESNO (voice-over): Rumsfeld's ability to adjust to change, to calibrate, would be tested, because the experts and exiles he and his team were listening to told them Iraq would be easy. Saddam was weak, his army poorly led, and unpopular.
(on camera) You were told you were going to be greeted as liberating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's absolutely true.
SESNO: And you believed that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we believed that.
SESNO: And Rumsfeld and the civilians believed that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is true.
SESNO: So you didn't plan for an insurgency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's true. And we're dead wrong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: The war in Iraq played a big role in midterm elections. This weekend CNN goes beyond the sanitized headlines to show the frantic fight to save the lives of wounded troops inside the combat hospital. Don't miss this compelling "CNN PRESENTS" this Saturday and Sunday night at 8 Eastern.
PHILLIPS: Let's get straight to Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr with more on the resignation of the secretary of defense -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, what we now know is that the secretary is at work and, of course, he will appear at the White House shortly with the president and Bob Gates, the man named to replace him. The secretary is expected to stick to his schedule tomorrow and travel to Kansas for a speaking engagement that had been set some time ago.
As for the transition, there's little word on that. Officials here say they're working out those details. It likely will depend on when Mr. Gates is confirmed by the Senate as the next secretary of defense.
But a few more details about how things unfolded here in the Pentagon this morning. What we have now learned is that General Peter Pace, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, did not know about any of this until about 10 a.m. this morning, when the secretary called him and said that this was going to be announced, was going to be happening. That is the first time, we are told, the chairman of the joint chiefs knew that the secretary would be stepping down.
The chairman then, over the next couple of hours, placed a number of overseas phone calls to key combatant commanders in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in all of the war zones, letting them know ahead of time very quietly that the secretary would be stepping down.
So it was very closely held here in the Pentagon with the top military man not even knowing until a couple of hours before that this announcement would be coming.
It now remains to be seen, really, though, how the next steps unfold, when Mr. Gates' nomination goes to the new Congress, when a confirmation hearing will be held, and if and how readily Mr. Gates will be confirmed. We are told that will depend on when the secretary, Secretary Rumsfeld, has his final day in office -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: A lot of people asking, too, what happens to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld now? What does he do next? Has he ever talked about life after the position of sec def?
STARR: You know, he really hasn't. This has been a job that, by any account, you can say he has enjoyed, that he has taken a lot of interest in.
He -- whatever you want to say about Don Rumsfeld, he's one of the hardest working people in the United States government. He works seven days a week, and this is something that -- a job that has really consumed him.
He has grown adult children. He has grandchildren that he, of course, absolutely adores. One can only expect that he will spend some time with his family. He has a ranch in Taos, New Mexico. Of course, he is from Chicago and still has many roots in the Chicago community.
So it remains to be seen possibly where he will settle down. I think a lot of people expect him to go back to his ranch in Taos, New Mexico, for a while and get some relaxation time with his wife and his grandchildren -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Barbara Starr, live from the Pentagon.
And we expect a live statement from the president, from Rumsfeld and also the man that the president wants to replace Rumsfeld, Bob Gates. That's at 3:30 Eastern. And we'll have live coverage right here from the CNN NEWSROOM.
LEMON: And let's go to the man who is a former Pentagon spokesperson, Larry DiRita. He joins us now on the line.
Tell us what might be happening now at the Pentagon.
LARRY DIRITA, FORMER PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: I think people are going to take a moment to want to understand all of the activities that are going on in the world. It's a -- it's a very busy time for the Department of Defense, for Secretary Rumsfeld, for sure.
And so people are going to want to take a measure of exactly -- there is an awful lot of change taking place in that department, at the president's request and at Secretary Rumsfeld's leadership. And it's important that that continue.
LEMON: And serving as a spokesperson there and working along with the secretary, you know, I asked the former secretary of defense this, Bill Cohen, do you think that this was all of his decision?
DIRITA: Well, you know, let's let all this sort itself out, and there will be plenty of time for it to sort itself out. The president spoke on it this afternoon. And we'll see with time exactly how all this unfolded.
But the fact is that this decision has now been made, and -- and Secretary Rumsfeld has generated an enormous amount of change at the Department of Defense. That will continue with his successors, and we'll -- I think that's the most important thing. LEMON: The president talked about what an asset he thought and a visionary, he said, that he thought the secretary of defense was. And he also talked about telling the people in Iraq, you know, "Don't be joyful because we want to bring you to justice."
What do you think of this changing sort of the leadership in -- let's just say midwar?
DIRITA: It's a difficult decision. I am certain of that. It's -- I think people with fresh eyes will look at this situation and realize there aren't an awful lot of alternatives to the course that we're on, which is to get the Iraqis security forces ready to take over the responsibility for securing that country and to help the Iraqi government get on its feet.
That's the plan that the president has proposed. That's the policy the secretary has been helping execute. And I think it will be difficult -- I mean, there aren't a lot of alternatives to that approach, and I think it's important that the people who will have the chance to review that, to learn quickly, and then decide how they think best it should proceed.
LEMON: How does this come to you? Surprise to you?
DIRITA: Yes, it is, as a matter of fact.
LEMON: Why so?
DIRITA: Because Secretary Rumsfeld is a man with an enormous amount of energy. The president has had an enormous amount of confidence in him. I don't think any of that has changed.
But obviously, they've mutually determined that the next -- that what has been announced is best for the country, and that's the way it will -- it will go.
LEMON: And my partner here, Kyra Phillips, posed this question, which I thought was a very good question. What happens to Donald Rumsfeld next? Has he ever talked about what he might do after becoming the secretary of defense?
DIRITA: Not with me. I think there were a lot of us who believed he'd be the secretary of defense for the rest of our natural lives.
He's a terrifically energetic individual. He's very intellectually curious. He's -- he's a man with a lot of interests. And I'm certain that whatever he decides to do, he'll throw himself into it and enjoy the hell out of it.
LEMON: Former Pentagon spokesperson, Larry DiRita, thank you.
DIRITA: You're welcome. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: All eyes on Virginia. A close vote, a potential recount and control of the Senate at stake. Our Brian Todd is in Richmond. He'll join us live next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: It is still not over in Virginia. The Senate race there is so tight, a recount is virtually certain. Democratic challenger has declared victory, but the Republican incumbent is telling supporters to sit tight.
The outcome will decide which party controls the whole Senate.
CNN's Brian Todd is in Richmond -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, it certainly will, because with the projection by CNN that Jon Tester won the other Senate race in Montana, it looks like this is the race that is left to decide who will control the Senate.
Now, what we can tell you is that the margin is still razor-thin at this hour. James Webb, the Democratic challenger, has a lead now, according to state election officials and state -- and Republican officials -- of just over 7,000 votes. That is less than 1 percent of the vote total.
Mr. Webb has himself come off a roller coaster evening. He was behind in the polls for much of last night. He emerges today with that very slight lead. As we said, we don't expect to hear from Mr. Webb directly today.
And we have not yet heard from Senator George Allen, the Republican incumbent. He also, obviously, coming off a very up and down evening. And we did hear, however, from his top aide, his top adviser, Ed Gillespie, the former Republican National Committee chairman, who held a news conference a short time ago.
Mr. Gillespie did not say outright that his side, that Mr. Allen's team would request a recount, but he did talk about the canvassing that is going on right now in the states. All over the state they're doing this. They're going back over the vote. They're counting the districts; they're counting the precincts. We're told that only about three precincts remain outstanding.
This is what Mr. Gillespie said a short time ago about what those canvasses could catch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED GILLESPIE, GEORGE ALLEN ADVISOR: These canvasses often and commonly turn up mathematical mistakes and tabulation errors, juxtapositions of numbers, numbers being written in the wrong columns to attribute it to the wrong candidates. And the canvassers correct those mistakes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: But a spokesman for Senator -- excuse me, Mr. Webb said that they expect, actually, on their side to pick up some more votes during the canvassing, because they say that some of the districts that are still outstanding, the precincts, normally go Democratic.
The candidate himself in the early hours of this morning expressed some of the same kind of confidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES WEBB (D), VIRGINIA SENATE CANDIDATE: We all go out, we vote, argue, we vote. But also, I would like to say that the votes are in, and we won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Not just yet, because the canvassing is still going on, and they have until the 14th of the month, about six days from now, to finish the canvassing. The state voting officials are going all around the state, canvassing for the votes.
Then on the 27th of this month will be the certification date. That is the date on which the candidate who comes out on the losing end of this can request a recount if the margin is less than one percent. And that is expected to happen. And the candidates, presumably now, George Allen, is expected to request a recount.
We did speak a short time ago with the state secretary -- the secretary of the state board of elections here in Virginia. Her name is Jean Jensen. She did confirm that a lot of canvassing is going on right now.
She says she is not concerned, Don, that this will be another repeat of the Florida recount of 2000. She says the system here is much more sophisticated. They don't have any hanging chads. They don't anticipate nearly those types of problems.
LEMON: CNN's Brian Todd in Richmond, thank you.
PHILLIPS: CNN projects Jon Tester is the winner in the crucial Montana Senate race. If you were just with us just after noon eastern, you heard my phone interview with the former and state Senate president -- or the farmer, rather, and state Senate president, in which he declared victory for the first time.
The Republican incumbent, Conrad Burns, has not conceded. And Democrats now are one seat closer to controlling the U.S. Senate.
CNN's Chris Lawrence standing by now in Billings with more -- Chris.
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, I was here in this same room about 12 hours ago, and it was filled with Conrad Burns supporters. Now it's, you know, pretty much all but empty, although we're told that one of the campaign workers from Burns' staff is going to come here within the next hour or so and release a written statement.
But all in all, this day looks like it's going to belong to Jon Tester. He's the Democratic current president of the Montana State Senate and a third-generation organic farmer.
Now, at times, his campaign turned nasty and negative, portraying Conrad Burns as corrupt. And, in turn, Tester was portrayed as being a high taxer who was too liberal for the state of Montana.
But after declaring victory live on CNN, he seemed to be staking out more of a middle ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON TESTER (D), MISSOURI SENATOR-ELECT: Now is the time, really, though, to come together. It really is a time to put politics aside. As we've got many, many issues that are facing this great state and this country, both in foreign policy and domestic policy. We've talked about them for the last 18 months. Now is the time to roll up our sleeves and get some things done.
It is absolutely critically important that we change the direction of this country and empower the middle class, empower working families and small businesses, family farms and ranches and really the people who have made this country so great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAWRENCE: Now, his opponent, Senator Conrad Burns, has served the state of Montana for 18 years. And right now he shows no signs of really giving up this fight.
We're told that a representative from his campaign will hand out a written statement, but they will make no comment, and there is no plans for Conrad Burns to show up and make any sort of concession speech, which leads us to speculate, in some respects, that he may be considering the possibility of asking for a recount -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Follow it. Chris Burns -- or Chris Lawrence, thank you.
LEMON: He won't be speaker, and now we're hearing Dennis Hastert won't seek a leadership role at all when the new Congress gathers in January. In a conference call today with fellow Republicans, Hastert bowed out of contention for House minority leader, though he easily won re-election from his home district in Illinois.
PHILLIPS: Every vote counts, and it's likely some states will be recounting every vote. In campaign 2000, it gave us the ultimate voting glitch nightmare. Would it be fair to call campaign 2006 son of a glitch?
Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin has more on the potential ballot battles.
That's Lisa Clark. She's such a great writer, isn't she? I wish I could take credit for son of a glitch.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm just enjoying it, sitting here, as I enjoy whatever you say, Kyra. PHILLIPS: Next time I cuss I'll use that, then. But then again, I never cuss at you.
Let's get down to business. Virginia, what do you think? Could there be a recount? Will it be anything like the nightmare we saw in Florida with the hanging chads and the magnifying glasses?
TOOBIN: Clearly, under Virginia law, Allen is entitled to a recount. The margin is less than one percent. One percent would be about 24,000 votes. The margin now is about 7,000 votes. So clearly, Allen is entitled to ask for a recount.
However, very different law from Florida, very different set of circumstances. First of all, it's just a much bigger margin. 7,000 votes is far more than I have ever heard of a recount making up. In any race, in any state.
Also, Virginia has a very different system. Almost all their machines are electrical. They are the new modern machines with no paper trail. They're just electronic voting machines, where there's nothing to recount. There is simply a number at each voting machine, which is being checked right now during this part called the canvass.
So last year, when there was a recount in the state attorney general's race in Virginia, it took a very long time. It went all the way to December 22, but it only moved 27 votes. That's why the answer to your question is yes, he's entitled to a recount, but I don't see any way he could make up 7,000 votes.
PHILLIPS: Well, and you heard Chris Lawrence also talking about the race in Montana between Conrad Burns and Jon Tester. Jon Tester came on CNN, declared victory, but Burns has still not conceded. So is it possible that we could see the same thing in Montana?
TOOBIN: Burns is in even worse shape than Allen is because of the unique circumstances of Montana's law. Under Montana law, you can only even ask for a recount if you are behind half a percent or less. As we see there, he's behind by about 3,000 votes. He would have to be behind by 2,000 votes in order to ask for a recount.
So I don't think, as far as I understand the law, that Burns is even entitled to ask for a recount. So he's not conceding, but he may just be delaying the inevitable, if these numbers hold up like that.
PHILLIPS: Explain what happened in Colorado, because there were some issues earlier in the morning. And we reported that they were going to keep the polling stations open later, into the evening. But they didn't.
TOOBIN: Well, there is a lot of discretion available to local election -- election officials to keep polls open or not. And in the absence of a judge's order, most election officials follow their rules and don't.
But it's just another example of how, even though it looks like we haven't had a Florida-level fiasco in 2006, the system is very far from perfect. There are not enough machines. They're not staffed by -- by knowledgeable people. And with due -- it needs a lot of work.
PHILLIPS: Legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much.
TOOBIN: See you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: We're going to take a quick break. More from CNN NEWSROOM straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: You're looking at live pictures there of a podium. That's because Arizona Senator John McCain expected to hold a press conference soon where he will comment on the resignation of secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld. We'll bring the news live when it happens right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
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