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Nancy Grace

Anna Nicole in Paternity Hearing; Search Continues for Firefighter Mom

Aired November 08, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, it`s a bombshell for cover girl Anna Nicole Smith in a court of law today, Smith facing claims of eviction, paternity disputes and the possible exhumation of her son`s body. Is that even legal?
And tonight: A firefighter mom disappears, seemingly vanishing into thin air, leaving behind three children, including a 6-month old left home alone. Tonight, we follow the trail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because of the events concerning residency issues, the inquest of her son`s death arising out of drug issues, applications, property issues, ongoing fraud and perjury allegations, as you can imagine, ladies and gentlemen, the walls are closing in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. How can one person have so many legal issues, even with a fleet of lawyers on their side? Let`s go out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez. Jean, why was Anna Nicole`s camp back in court today?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, this was in regard to personal jurisdiction in regard to the paternity case. This was a closed hearing in Los Angeles superior court. At issue, personal jurisdiction. Does the California court still have personal jurisdiction of Anna Nicole? Attorneys for the petitioner, Larry Birkhead, say, yes, because the baby was conceived in California, she has a home. It is still her residence, and she works there.

GRACE: And Jean, regarding this, is it all about paternity, or are we hearing about eviction, the exhumation of the son`s body? Exactly what was the proceeding about?

CASAREZ: I think it all interplays with each other. Well, the case was closed. It is a paternity case. That is normally a closed hearing. But what we`re hearing about is that it had to do with personal jurisdiction and also DNA of the baby.

GRACE: Well, it`s Trial 101, jurisdiction. For a court to hear your case, it`s got to have personal jurisdiction and subject matter jurisdiction.

Let`s go out to the lawyers tonight. Joining us out of New York, Jason Oshins, and from the Seattle jurisdiction, high-profile lawyer Anne Bremner. What about it, Jason Oshins? Explain how, while Anna Nicole Smith is now living in the Bahamas, that a California court can have jurisdiction over her.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, as you indicate right from the start, you`ve got different matters as it relates to the jurisdiction. You have enrem (ph) jurisdiction, personal subject matter jurisdiction. And obviously, the judge, before she rules or issues any ruling, wants to make sure that she`s got the right person and on what legal basis she has them. So the first base of any lawsuit is jurisdictional issues. And obviously, you`ve got to figure out what you have with this defendant in terms of that jurisdictional issue.

GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner? How do they have jurisdiction over her? She`s in the Bahamas. This is in California.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Right. Exactly. And the thing is -- and think about this, too, Nancy. What`s the evidence that -- it`s, like, Who`s your daddy? You know, what`s the evidence, in fact, that there`s any basis to bring her back to California or have her in the jurisdiction for testing? So I know what they`ve done to (INAUDIBLE) we know, is he`s gone to the Bahamas and brought in more lawyers to bring an action there.

GRACE: Well, I think it`s very simple how they`re claiming jurisdiction. As to personal jurisdiction, Anna Nicole Smith has been in California many, many times.

BREMNER: Sure.

GRACE: I would put money it, and I`m going to ask the CEO of Trimspa in just a moment, did they shoot all their promos, did she do business in California? Has she lived in California? And as to paternity, did she meet the alleged father of the baby there? Did they consummate a relationship? Is that where the child was conceived? That`s plenty to have personal jurisdiction.

But let`s talk about subject matter jurisdiction. Jason Oshins, how can they have subject matter jurisdiction in California?

OSHINS: Well, obviously, as you`re indicating, did she conceive that child in California?

GRACE: Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba! I just said that. It`s your turn.

OSHINS: Well, that hasn`t been decided yet, and that`s one of the things you have to look at. It`s alleged that the conception occurred there, but you need to establish on what basis you`re going to attach that to. And obviously, if the child was conceived there, you have the basis of the subject matter, which is the child in question.

GRACE: Back out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez. Jean, the whole issue is, does this baby -- I believe the baby`s name is Dannielynn, Dannielynn Hope. Does it belong biologically to -- I believe he`s a photographer, Larry Birkhead? What`s in it for him, other than getting to see his child grow up? Is there any money in it for him?

CASAREZ: I think there could be because he could ultimately possibly get custody of the child.

GRACE: What?

CASAREZ: Then Anna Nicole could possibly have to pay him.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Where are you getting that? Why would he get custody?

CASAREZ: Well, Nancy, if she -- at some point, he would take her into a court to say that she would not be a fit mother to have her child. And this is all speculation, of course. Ultimately, he could get custody of that child.

GRACE: Well, his number one exhibit would be the death of Anna Nicole Smith`s son, her young son Daniel. And tonight, let`s not have any piling up on Anna Nicole Smith. There`s absolutely no reason for her to be the butt of people`s humor, after what all she`s gone through. But she may be in for the custody fight of a lifetime.

As a matter of fact, take a listen to her mother.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I`m reading in "In Touch Weekly" -- and with us tonight, the executive editor of that, Dan Wakeford -- Ms. Arthur, in here you say, "It was murder, I know it was, and someone has to pay." In that room, there were only Daniel Smith by his mother`s side, Anna Nicole Smith, your daughter, and apparently, Howard Stern, the lawyer now proclaiming to be the father of the baby. So if it wasn`t suicide, that only leaves Anna Nicole and Howard Stern.

ARTHUR: That`s true. There was only three people in that room. Danny was one of them.

GRACE: But what could their possible motive be, Ms. Arthur? Why would they want to do this to a young boy?

ARTHUR: I don`t have a clue. I don`t know why. I just know that Danny didn`t kill hisself. He did not overdose hisself.

GRACE: Ms. Arthur, you clearly believe that this death was no accident. Why?

ARTHUR: There wasn`t any sign of Daniel taking any kind of drugs, other than a sleeping pill and an anxiety pill.

GRACE: And apparently, in his bloodstream, there is seven times the amount expected to find in an antidepressant. What do you believe is suspicious about these circumstances surrounding his death, Ms. Arthur?

ARTHUR: Seven times as much? Why would you need seven times? You only need one overdose. One time is too many, but seven times? That`s kind of like overkill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Tia Brown with "In Touch Weekly." Tia, thank you for being with us. What is the status of the inquest as to Daniel`s death?

TIA BROWN, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Well, we`re still waiting to find out when those results will be released. We do know, as has been said before, that Daniel had more than seven times the amount of almost eight different types of drugs in his system. But I don`t think that anyone really believes that Anna Nicole intentionally harmed Daniel or had any type of hand in his death. It`s always been known that she did love her son dearly.

I think the biggest thing is whether or not she`s a responsible parent, and I think that that`s something that Larry Birkhead really going to go after. And remember, he does have a lot to gain from this. She does stand to possibly inherit almost half a billion dollars. And if he does have custody of Dannielynn, then he`ll get paid child support from Anna Nicole. So we have to expect that this would play a factor in his pursuits.

GRACE: Back to Court TV`s Jean Casarez. Jean, remember the name Laurie Payne, the so-called friend of Anna Nicole Smith, right, Ellie, that gave a sworn statement that didn`t help her friend at all. Nobody, including me, that I know of, believes that Anna Nicole Smith had anything to do with the death of her son. It`s farfetched. But is there any evidence from this woman, this Payne person, regarding methadone?

CASAREZ: Yes, there is, Nancy. And that also could be involved in a custody dispute. She says...

GRACE: Oh, yes. You`re right.

CASAREZ: ... she got to be very good friends with Anna Nicole, and while she was pregnant, Anna Nicole started asking her to do things for her, and one thing she asked her to do was to give her her medication, one being methadone.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Rebecca in California. Hi, Rebecca.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is that -- Anna Nicole, if she has nothing to hide and she is absolutely sure who the baby`s father is, why doesn`t she go to the courts and prove it instead of just talking about it? What is she hiding? I feel that maybe she might be hiding something. If she is, what could it be?

GRACE: You know, Rebecca, I would get that feeling all the time prosecuting. When I would catch someone in a small lie, it would seem even more nefarious because you wonder what`s the motivation to hide something. And sometimes, it would not be on point. It could be something tangential.

But here in the studio with me, the CEO of Trimspa, who we were discussing earlier, and friend of Anna Nicole Smith and Daniel Smith. Alex Goen is with us. Alex, thank you for being with us. She`s got a really good point. If he is, this photographer, Larry Birkhead -- if he is the biological father, why are they fighting it, and why are they fighting a paternity test?

ALEX GOEN, CEO, TRIMSPA: Well, I think -- I think it`s an excellent question. And I believe that if they`re compelled to do so by the courts, they will do it. But right now, they haven`t been compelled to do so. Now, I mean, paternity is something that should be a confidential matter. You know, very often, there`s relationships that turn bitter. It seems that this relationship turned bitter. Larry is not acting the way he should, and Anna is in turn retaliating.

GRACE: Why do you say that?

GOEN: Why? Because they`re letting out confidential information. This is supposed to be a confidential hearing. There shouldn`t be press releases afterwards. The details of the hearing shouldn`t be released to the media.

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! I believe you`re putting the cart before the horse. What details released? What press conference? And what specifically do you mean by Larry Birkhead not acting the way he should?

GOEN: As far as -- I don`t think it`s a good idea -- I mean, as far as the court is concerned, the court has asked that this be kept confidential. Anna and Howard have kept the hearing confidential. They haven`t commented on the confidentiality of the hearing. Every time there`s a hearing, Larry Birkhead and his attorney seem to have a press conference or release information, confidential information that was released, that was given to the court is found in the media`s hands. Laurie Payne, for example, her testimony was, you know, given to the media. Why was it given to the media? That`s a confidential transcript of the -- that the court should have.

GRACE: Back out to Jean Casarez. Alex Goen is referring to a confidential court proceeding. Explain what he`s talking about. And has that confidentiality been violated?

CASAREZ: Right. This is a paternity case, and paternity cases are normally always closed because you`re protecting a minor right there because that is the whole point of that paternity case. And because it`s a closed hearing, anything, any legal documents, are not to be released to the public. And Laurie Payne -- this is a sworn statement under penalty of perjury. She is giving her personal word that what she knows in her mind happened. And it was leaked to the public.

And now today, we got one more thing -- we don`t have the actual document -- where we`ve heard, allegedly, that Ben Thompson, the man that owns, he says, the mansion that Nicole was living in in the Bahamas -- he says that Nicole actually -- Anna Nicole told him, You know, I think you`re the father of the baby. And he said, No, I can`t be because I had a vasectomy. And that`s when she says she said that Birkhead was actually the father of the baby.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Why am I hearing about anybody`s vasectomy? Why is that -- how did that leak? Where is all this coming from? The judge says this is confidential. Why are we hearing about it?

CASAREZ: I guess we have to ask, who would it benefit to hear that from.

GRACE: OK, who would it benefit?

CASAREZ: I think it would it benefit Birkhead, right?

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On October 11, this office first learned of the existence of a Bahamian birth certificate bearing the name of Howard K. Stern as father of Dannielynn. This office immediately began inquiries and an investigation into the veracity of this document and learned that as part of the application process to secure such a birth certificate in the Bahamas, affidavits under penalty of perjury had to be prepared by the party.

Based upon the results and findings of our investigation, my client, Mr. Birkhead, has now instructed my office to secure Bahamian counsel to file an immediate action for fraud and conspiracy based upon Anna Nicole Smith`s and Howard K. Stern`s having filed fraudulent documents with the Bahamian government. This action will also involve the registrar general of the Bahamas, and it will be up to this government entity to pursue any criminal investigation against either Anna Nicole Smith and/or Howard K. Stern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Donna in Tennessee. Hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering -- the public eye, we`ve seen Anna Nicole Smith was always under the influence of some narcotic of some kind. I was just wondering, why hasn`t anybody investigated where she`s getting these prescriptions?

GRACE: OK. Number one, I don`t know that I`ve seen that she`s under the influence. I don`t know. But even if she was, my mind immediately leaps to, Donna, what effect that would have on, for instance, a custody hearing.

What about it, Jean Casarez? It seems like so many balls are in -- so many plates are in the air. You`ve got an inquest going on that has suddenly gone radio silent about the cause of death for her son and a possible exhumation of this boy`s body. You`ve got an eviction going on from a house. I don`t know even know if she owns the house or not. And now you`ve got these claims that have been made painfully public. Would the fact that she may have been under the influence in public have anything to do with, for instance, a custody hearing?

CASAREZ: Well, I think it could. But nothing has been substantiated. What everyone is talking about are truly rumors, at this point. The closest thing is from this signed affidavit from Laurie Payne, saying that the methadone that she was taking when pregnant, the prescription was not in her own name.

GRACE: Everyone, quick break. Tonight, a special thank you to "Jeopardy" and "Jeopardy" host Alex Trebeck. In the 23rd season, "Jeopardy" celebrates a milestone, 5,000th episode. This week, "Celebrity Jeopardy." Tonight, I play for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which after tonight gets a big fat check from "Jeopardy." Thank you, "Jeopardy," and to Alex Trebeck, helping a cause dear to our hearts here at "Neighborhood." And to you, my two competitors, Regis Philbin and Carlson Kressley (ph), I challenge you to a rematch.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anna, I`m talking to you directly now, and I want you to listen to me and I want you to hear what I have to tell you. You are so certain -- if are you so certain that Larry Birkhead is not the father, then you have nothing, absolutely nothing to lose by submitting to this jurisdiction and allowing a paternity test.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: How would you explain such high levels of Lexapro, Zoloft and methadone in this boy`s bloodstream?

ARTHUR: Somebody had to give it to him. He had to get it from somewhere. I just know that Danny didn`t kill hisself. He did not overdose hisself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the mother of Anna Nicole Smith, referring to her grandson, Daniel, just 20 years old when he passed away in a Bahamian hospital under unusual circumstances.

Out to the lines. Is it Kelly in California?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is.

GRACE: Hi, Kelly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was just wondering if you guys are concerned if she`s going to be in post-partum depression.

GRACE: You know, I`ve wondered that very thing. Explain it, Lisa Weinstein.

LISA WEINSTEIN, PSYCHOLOGIST: Post-partum depression is, you know, a depression that happens after a woman has a baby, usually due to the hormonal fluctuations. It affects a significant proportion of women after childbirth and is characterized by, you know, tearfulness, self- recriminating thoughts, like any other depression problems, sleeping, eating, anxiety.

GRACE: So she could very well be contending with this, on top of all the other tragedy that has befallen her. Jean Casarez from Court TV on the case, Jean, I`m still not straight. I know that hearing today was supposed to be closed-door and private, and it has turned out to be anything but. So what are they arguing about now?

CASAREZ: Well, you`re right because of the sensitivity. Well, Debra Opri came out after the hearing. A number of things -- the Associated Press was reporting she was saying that personal jurisdiction had been granted by the judge. But there is no official order on the books at all. She also had a statement saying that case law in California could change because of this case. Well, that`s saying that she`s going to go up to the supreme court of California in this case. Anna Nicole`s attorney came out, though, saying everything Debra Opri is saying today is inaccurate and reprehensible, that she has no business coming out saying anything when the case is closed to the public.

GRACE: To Alex Goen. Agree or disagree?

GOEN: Well, I mean, I know that Howard and Anna were very happy after the hearing and they seemed to have thought everything went absolutely perfectly. And as far as the confidential information that the judge...

GRACE: This woman just can`t cut a break, can she.

GOEN: She can`t. It`s very, very unfortunate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Even though you`re concerned about the death of Daniel, I can see that you -- what would say to her tonight, if you could speak to her?

ARTHUR: Vickie Lynn, you know I love you, always have. And be very careful about who you hang around with because you may be next.

GRACE: Ms. Arthur, did Anna Nicole Smith ever call you to tell you Daniel had passed away?

ARTHUR: Yes, she did. She called, but you couldn`t understand anything she said because you could tell she was clearly under some kind of -- of drug because she was very upset. She was mumbling like a drunk does, you know, when they mumble. All I got out of it was that Daniel`s dead. And then it sort of -- you know, it was like she was in the middle of a sentence, and the phone hung up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We were tallying up here during the break the possible law school class that could be taught on Anna Nicole 101. So far, we`re covering wills and estates, bankruptcy, landlord tenant eviction, paternity, murder and legal ethics.

Now, speaking of what was in the system of young Daniel at the time of his death, joining us out of Flint, Michigan, Dr. William R. Marrone. He`s a toxicologist and pharmacologist and a deputy ME. So Dr. Marrone, thank you for being with us. He had methadone in his system. Explain to me how difficult that is to get unless you`re at a treatment facility.

DR. WILLIAM MARRONE, TOXICOLOGIST/PHARMACOLOGIST: That`s right. There are two main sources of methadone in America. The most dominant source is the methadone maintenance treatment centers, where people addicted to opiates or heroin are maintained and detoxified. But the second source that is brought into question here is where it`s used for severe chronic pain or cancer pain. And it`s tightly guarded, to be dispensed under very strict guidelines.

GRACE: Well, question. There are allegations in this affidavit from Lisa Payne, or this testimony by Laurie Payne that the mom had methadone. How would it affect a young man?

MARRONE: If he took too much, he`d be sleepy, weak. And if he took a lot, respiratory depression and death would follow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I ask this now: Where is this woman`s decency? Where`s her fairness? Can Anna Nicole Smith not simply submit to the test necessary to settle the question of who is that little girl`s father once and for all? Can Anna Nicole Smith not allow Larry Birkhead the peace of mind in resolving a question of whether he is the father legally?

Anna, I`m talking to you directly now, and I want you to listen to me, and I want you to hear what I have to tell you. If you are so certain, if you so certain that Larry Birkhead is not the father, then you have nothing, absolutely nothing to lose by submitting to this jurisdiction and allowing a paternity test.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: In a hearing today that was supposed to have been confidential, one leak after the next has made it out regarding the paternity of Anna Nicole Smith`s new baby. But let`s go back for a moment. What happened to the possible exhumation of her son`s body? What happened to the inquest into the cause of his death? What happened to those eviction proceedings we heard about?

Let`s go out to the lawyers, Jason Oshins and Anne Bremner. If Anna Nicole Smith had methadone, rightly or wrongly, in her possession, if this young boy, Daniel, 20 years old, had taken it, had gotten his hands on it somehow, Anne, would she in any way be criminally culpable?

BREMNER: Sure, it`s called possession with intent to deliver. It`s violation of the Uniformed Controlled Substances Act, UCSA.

GRACE: Well, what if she had it rightfully?

BREMNER: Well, even if she has it rightfully, there is, in certain jurisdictions, death by UCSA, they call it. Basically, if you give a drug to somebody and they die thereby, then you could be guilty of a homicide.

GRACE: Do you see it, Jason Oshins? Is it possible?

OSHINS: We`re in Bahamian courts right now. This occurred in the Bahamas. It didn`t occur under jurisdiction, and so the issue becomes, what is Bahamian law? He`s also emancipated by anyone`s estimation at 20, certainly not a minor at under 18. So if he obtained these on his own, for whatever purposes, either accidentally or intentionally, well, you know, we really need to focus at this time on Bahamian law.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Emilio in Texas. Hi, Emilio.

CALLER: Hello.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Yes, I was wondering if it is true that she did give him the drugs, what kind of consequences will she have to face?

GRACE: If she gave it to him intentionally, she`s in a lot more trouble. If he took it by accident or took it knowing it was methadone and she had no knowledge of it, I don`t see any criminal culpability on her part, maybe some civil negligence, Emilio. But I don`t see intent to distribute a controlled substance. I just don`t see it.

And also, let`s just get real, let`s get practical. How would it ever be proven in a court of law? Anna Nicole Smith would never admit to that. Howard Stern, the alleged father of her baby, would not, and may not know about it. So, Emilio, I don`t think there`s going to be a consequence here, and I don`t believe anyone thinks this young man, Daniel, was given this methadone on purpose.

I want to go back to Alex Goen, the CEO of Trimspa. Everybody`s familiar with Anna Nicole Smith making another bucket load of money by being the spokesperson, the model for Trimspa when she went from overweight to a beautiful and svelte figure.

Alex Goen, she wants privacy in this hearing, according to Jean Casarez. It was supposed to be confidential. Then why did Anna Nicole Smith give this long, multi-series interview to "ET"?

GOEN: Well, I mean, she didn`t give a multi-series interview. She gave one interview to "ET." And they stretched it out over a number of weeks. I guess it probably had a lot to do with ratings.

But as far as her wanting to keep this thing private, I mean, one of the challenges Anna has, if she doesn`t tell her story, every single person wants her story and they`re begging her for the story. They`re in front of her house trying to get pictures. Now that she, you know, gave "ET" the story, the photographers aren`t camped out if front of her house and the requests aren`t quite as much as they were in the past. So she`s starting to finally get a little privacy. I mean, she had really no choice in the matter.

GRACE: I understand that the interview portrayed her very sympathetically. She`s gone through a lot.

GOEN: No question about it. I mean, it`s been heck. I mean, just imagine going through any one of the challenges that Anna had is difficult. You know, you`re talking about just having a baby and the depression that very often comes with having a baby. They can talk about having a son die. Then you talk about having your name muddied in the media. I mean, one thing after the other can just drive a person nuts. She has all this all at the same time. It`s very difficult.

GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez with Court TV. What happened to the eviction? She was supposed to be out of that seaside mansion in the Bahamas on the 31st of October. She`s still bunked in.

CASAREZ: That`s right. Well, the last we heard was that Ben Thompson, who is the real estate mogul that says he owns the mansion, was going to file a lawsuit by last Friday based on trespass and slander of title. Plus, he wanted her evicted. Well, we`ve not gotten any notice at all that that action was ever filed. It was threatened, it was in the papers, but we have not seen the official legal document.

GRACE: And, Jean, in addition to the eviction proceedings -- we know that she`s still in the mansion -- what about the inquest? And what about allegations that her young son`s body was going to be exhumed?

CASAREZ: And what about the official toxicology report? Do you realize, Nancy, that has never come out? So we don`t know the actual levels of the medication. And the official toxicology report should be released when we find out about that criminal inquest.

GRACE: Well, on October 26th, the Bahaman authorities said the decision on the inquest would happen, quote, "soon." But still no announcement on when it will happen.

You know, actually, to Tia Brown with "InTouch Weekly," here in America, they would be besieged under the Freedom of Information Act to find out the cause of this inquest, the cause of the death.

BROWN: Definitely.

GRACE: They are really sitting on their thumbing there, why?

BROWN: Well, remember, there was a protest at one point by a local Bahamian saying that they were pushing everything through because it was Anna Nicole and that people had been waiting for months to get information.

GRACE: You`re kidding. This is pushing it through?

BROWN: And that they expected things to take their natural course. Now, they also have the official response from Cyril Wecht, which said that he basically knew what substances were the cause of death. And the others were basically over-the-counter medications that were also in his system, but not for cause.

GRACE: Out to Jeannie in North Carolina. Hi, Jeannie.

CALLER: Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am.

CALLER: Basically, I was just wondering, if she hasn`t decided to take this DNA on her own and avoid all this and is adamant about Howard being the father, if it`s proven and it goes through a paternity test that Larry Birkhead is the father, isn`t that going to be grounds enough for him to receive custody?

GRACE: Oh, no, I don`t believe so, Jeannie. The fact that she may have named another man as the father, that alone is not grounds for custody removal. The question to the court will be: What is in the best interests of the child? We`ll all be right back.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was on the phone or she was trying to make a call and I just said, "Who are you talking to? Who are you calling?" She just said, "My f-ing husband. I`m going to divorce him." (INAUDIBLE) Margaret has a very explosive temperament, and she says things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve had our share of problems, but everything seemed to be working out with my stepdaughter (INAUDIBLE) seems very good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a dispute up there. The extent of it, I don`t want to talk about (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 29-year-old firefighter mom of three vanishes, seemingly into thin air, leaving behind the three kids, including a 6-month-old child alone at home. What has become of Margaret Haddican-McEnroe?

Out to you, Jean Casarez, what is the latest on the search for this mom?

CASAREZ: This is day 29. And investigators just really don`t know what the situation here, because it`s one of two things. Either she left three young babies at home or there is foul play.

GRACE: Take a listen to what her own father had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did you start to think that something was wrong?

TIMOTHY MCENROE, HUSBAND OF MISSING WOMAN: Well, I had to pick up my two daughters, and that`s when I called my mother to come over. But I was a little bit concerned because my one baby was upstairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the baby was here alone?

MCENROE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that wasn`t a normal thing?

MCENROE: No, I figured she might be just outside somewhere, but she wasn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had she caused you earlier in the day to tell you that there wasn`t formula and to bring a formula?

MCENROE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, that was the husband. Now, let`s take a listen to the father.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK HADDICAN, FATHER OF MISSING WOMAN: We never heard a word, a negative word in regard to the marriage. The only thing negative that we`ve ever heard was when she was cursing Tim the day before she disappeared. And as I said before, that`s -- when things don`t go right, she has a little bit of a temper.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Eric Martin with the Central New Jersey search and rescue team, he has led the search for this 29-year-old woman. Not a problem in the marriage. But the day before she goes missing, there`s a domestic call to the home.

ERIC MARTIN, SEARCH AND RESCUE, NEW JERSEY: Well, I`ll be very honest with you, Nancy. At this point, you know, we`re focusing on the search effort for Margaret. There`s a lot of variables that are coming into play, into light. There`s an ongoing police investigation that should complement the search effort.

And we at this point are still -- you know, your effort is an active, passive, indirect search tactic to try to make people aware that she might be out of New Jersey. But we`re still focusing all of our resources on the ground in the Warren...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, Eric, let me rephrase the question. Was there a domestic call? Did police go to the home the day before she goes missing?

MARTIN: Yes, ma`am, absolutely.

GRACE: What happened? What was the allegation?

MARTIN: You know, at this point, we are not privy as to civilian search and rescue side of things so what actually took place with the law enforcement at that particular disturbance.

GRACE: OK, I accept that.

To Vito Colucci, private investigator with Colucci Investigations, what are your thoughts on the investigation so far?

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE DETECTIVE: Well, you know, Nancy, very strange case for a lot of reasons. You have this young man that waits two full days before he calls the authorities to report his wife missing. Now, meanwhile, then he tells authorities that she has threatened to commit suicide, number one, and, number two, she`s suffering from postpartum.

But yet you go to sleep for two full nights by yourself, not in a rural area, not knowing where your wife is? Doesn`t make any sense at all. They have the big argument the night before. He goes two full days. It doesn`t make any sense. And then he refuses, Nancy, to take a polygraph. So what does all that mean?

GRACE: To Eric Martin, has the husband been out searching?

MARTIN: No, and I`ll tell you, we`re not really sure what took place prior to the nine days when we arrived on the scene. But we really don`t want the family actively going out and participating in the search effort.

And to the remark your previous guest just made, there was no real, formal document stating that she was going to commit suicide or even had that mindset, so we`re still keeping all the avenues open.

GRACE: Eric, speaking of the search, one of the reasons very often -- and we can`t cast an aspersion on the husband on that matter, for not searching, because, say, for instance, a witness in a case finds evidence. That`s never a good thing.

Out to the lawyers, Anne Bremner, Jason Oshins. You don`t want a possible witness, a person of interest, a suspect, anybody to do with the case to find evidence. Why, Anne?

BREMNER: Well, because then -- then because if they`re guilty, then presumably they`re going to taint it in some way. And if they`re part of the scene, anybody being part of the scene that`s not an official searcher in the case, can be looked at as someone that could contaminate the scene. Scenes need to be sacrosanct, and you know that. Everyone does. But having the suspect there -- but remember Scott Peterson? I think he was part of the vigil, but not the searches.

GRACE: OK, this guy is not a suspect. The husband is not a suspect.

BREMNER: No.

GRACE: But to you, Jason Oshins, if somebody in my family were missing, I would be out there looking or manning the hotline. P.S., that tip line, 888-577-TIPS. So that is very unusual in my mind, Jason.

OSHINS: Well, Nancy, look at it two ways. You might do something independently, as we were just talking about with the Scott Peterson. He certainly gave the impression that he was out there and trying to assist in some way.

But obviously, law enforcement doesn`t want anyone out there except their own. And if there are volunteers, there are law enforcement with them, so in case there is evidence found, it is not tainted, and it`s maintained in the proper chain of custody.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, with Court TV, frankly speaking, if it`s a volunteer search effort, there`s really no reason the husband can`t be out there with the other volunteers, but maybe he`s home manning the lines. There could be a myriad of reasons why. He`s got these three kids to contend with, one being 6 months old. But, Jean Casarez, I need to nail down the time line. Why did 48 hours go by before he reported her missing?

CASAREZ: Well, what he said was that she had done this before and that he thought she was coming back, and so he didn`t want to call in authorities until she came home, because that`s what he thought was going to happen. And I think also, if they were having domestic problems, they could be an air of humiliation right there that he knows she`s coming back and doesn`t want to humiliate himself by going to the police.

GRACE: I don`t know why that would humiliate him, Jean.

CASAREZ: Well, I think that, if they were having problems, he thought she was coming back, he didn`t want to air their dirty laundry with officials.

GRACE: Out to Christine in Ohio. Hi, Christine.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: My question is, if she left on her own accord, why would she have left her cell phone? I mean, if I go any place, if I just go out the door to even just check the dog, I take my cell phone.

GRACE: You know what? I have the very same habit, but maybe everybody`s not like us. But interesting, Christine in Ohio. Her cell phone was totally destroyed. Yes, no, Eric Martin?

MARTIN: And also, Nancy, I want to make sure that you understand, there`s two types of volunteers. There are the trained career volunteers that -- we basically are very, very conscientious of all the evidence. We don`t allow any of our saritechs (ph) to touch any evidence. We mark it, and we give it to the police enforcement agencies.

Now, you have the emergency volunteers also...

GRACE: Cell phone.

MARTIN: ... come back -- and absolutely. I mean, there`s just so many pieces that aren`t coming together.

GRACE: Cell phone. Cell phone. Cell phone. Was the cellphone destroyed?

MARTIN: Yes, it was.

GRACE: Did you see it?

MARTIN: No, I did not.

GRACE: Vito Colucci, I don`t like it. Why would you totally -- and the husband says she destroyed her own cell phone that disappeared? OK, something stinks.

COLUCCI: Not only that, the time line. What your viewers have to realize, you know, the husband is saying 2:00 on October the 10th. It could have been a lot earlier than that, Nancy. The police need to find out who the last person was that spoke to her. It could be late at night on October the 9th.

GRACE: On the other hand though, Vito, if she got into an argument of some sort with him, say, threw down the phone and walked out, that could have happened, too. There are a myriad of explanations.

To Beth in Massachusetts, hi, Beth.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: I was wondering, is this search only places that she would have been local to her or local to her husband?

GRACE: What about it, Eric?

MARTIN: We`re looking at all the avenues for high-probability areas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s baffling because of a very narrow window of when she, you know, may have walked away from the house. And for us, that`s very difficult to try and, you know, get past that point. That point of her leaving the house is where we need to get to, and there`s just nothing that`s come to light right now that`s very helpful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 29-year-old firefighter, a mother of three goes missing, seemingly vanishing into thin air. Out to Vito Colucci, private investigator with Colucci Investigations, all right, I`ve got another problem with the case. First of all, 48 hours passed before she`s reported missing. Second, the search starts nine days later? Did I miss something? Is that correct?

COLUCCI: Yes, unfortunately, you`re right on that, Nancy.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa. Why?

COLUCCI: It`s terrible. I don`t know. This is the Warren Police Department wait that amount of days. Now, once Somerset got it, the state police took over, helicopters, dogs. The problem with that though is the dogs went out and, after nine or ten days, with that kind of a time frame, the dogs cannot find the evidence, OK? And the rain hampered it, too, and destroying any evidence for the dogs to find.

GRACE: Out to Jo in South Carolina. Hi, Joe.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. When I first saw this, they said they hadn`t done forensics in the house. I wondered if they had done forensics in the cars and it set off an alarm with me that her husband is a landscaper.

GRACE: Interesting, Jean Casarez. Again, he is not a suspect or a person of interest, but he is a landscaper. What`s the significance, if any?

CASAREZ: That`s right. Well, a landscaper works with the earth and does digging and things like that. But I think the caller makes such a valid point. You know, a search warrant was not executed in the home or in the car. Police merely walked through it and didn`t see anything in plain view that seemed out of the ordinary, so that was the extent of the search of the home.

GRACE: Tonight, let`s stop our legal and investigative discussion to remember Army Sergeant Mario Nelson, just 26, Brooklyn, New York. He dreamed of becoming a cop and was awarded the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star. What a smile. He leaves behind a 3-year-old daughter, Mia, and a widow, Mecca. Mario Nelson, American hero.

Thank you to our guests and especially to you for inviting us into your homes. NANCY GRACE signing off again for tonight. Until tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, good night, friend.

END