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Nancy Grace
Mother Who Drowned Children Released by Judge from Mental Hospital
Aired November 10, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, outrage in Texas. Another Texas mom walks free after just 27 months of treatment. The attractive Texas soccer mom held her two little girls, 3-year-old Kamryn, 5-year-old Briana, under water in the family tub until both little girls were dead. You had the power, Judge. Texas judge Mark (ph) Rusch, you are in contempt tonight!
And a 29-year-old pregnant North Carolina mother and championship cheerleader found murdered inside her Raleigh home, her 2-year-old little girl found there at the crime scene.
But first, a soccer mom kills her own children and tonight walks free~!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lisa Diaz faces two counts of capital murder for the deaths of her 6-year-old daughter, Briana, and 3-year-old daughter, Kamryn. Police removed the girls` bodies after they were discovered by their father in an East Plano neighborhood that`s still shaken. The 33- year-old mother gave police statements that led to her arrest. Police say they have no motive or murder weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Another Texas mom walks free after killing all of her children, this time after about 27 months in psychiatric treatment, although she had no history of mental illness whatsoever.
Out to "The Dallas Observer" reporter Glenna Whitley. Where is she tonight? When did she walk free?
GLENNA WHITLEY, "DALLAS OBSERVER": She walked free today, but I don`t know where she is.
GRACE: No idea where she is. What can you tell us about the facility in which she was being held?
WHITLEY: Well, it`s a hospital for people who have mental illness and have been convicted or have gone through the legal system.
GRACE: Out to Court TV`s Jeanne Casarez, who`s been on the case from the very beginning. What can you tell me about the case? What happened?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, it happened just not too long ago, 2003, is when she committed this crime. And what she did was she drowned her two children in the bathtub. And she was charged with two counts of capital murder. There was a trial. And they had the affirmative defense of insanity, that at the time of when these killings happened, that she didn`t know her actions were wrong. Well, the guilty -- the judge -- the verdict was that she was not guilty by reason of insanity.
GRACE: Wait a minute! Wait a minute! I want to look at Jean Casarez when she said that. She didn`t know it was wrong? Didn`t she say she had done a bad thing? Didn`t she lock the doors? Didn`t she wait until her husband had gone before she killed the two little girls?
CASAREZ: Nancy, the prosecutor brought on a lot of evidence to know that she knew exactly what she was doing was right (SIC), but the defense brought on 12 hours of videotapes right after the crime occurred, before she was on any anti-psychotic medication, and they believe it was that videotape that the jury believed and found her not guilty by reason of insanity.
GRACE: This is total BS! And to that Texas jury and the judge who had the power not to let her walk free, it`s on you now! The only thing wrong with this woman is she wanted attention! She wanted attention from her husband. She kept coming up with one illness after the next. Let`s see, what were they? Take a listen to this, Jean. There you go. Thanks for that mug shot.
Number one, she thought she had a thyroid problem. OK. She didn`t. She thought she had worms. She didn`t. She said she had MS. Didn`t. Said she had lupus. She didn`t. She claimed she was having a heart attack. Her husband wouldn`t even take her to the hospital because he knew it was total BS. Over and over, she tried to get attention. She thought she wasn`t getting attention. The next thing you know, the two kids are dead.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA DIAZ, DROWNED TWO CHILDREN: I have to save them!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This interview conducted inside the state hospital shows a visibly shaken Lisa Ann (ph) Diaz, who insists she killed her two daughters to save them from demons.
DIAZ: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The voice inside her head telling her, You gave them life, you take it away. She did, drowning her two little girls, Briana and Kamryn, inside their Plano home.
Diaz`s husband, Angel (ph), made the 911 call when he returned from work and discovered the scene. Angel Diaz also discovered Lisa Ann had tried to stab herself to death. Diaz was tried and found not guilty by reason of insanity. Now she`s set to be released.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Joining us tonight from the Texas jurisdiction, a veteran trial lawyer that`s been a guest with us before, defense attorney Paul Looney. Also with us, the battling Lauren Lake out of the -- don`t smile -- out of the New York jurisdiction.
Out to you, Paul Looney. If the hospital was the final arbiter, why did they even bring her back to the judge? This is on the judge. There is no way he could not have stopped this.
PAUL LOONEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the judge makes the final decision. The judge makes all decisions when a person is committed, but -- in the manner in which this lady was committed. The hospital makes recommendations. The hospital has reports. The judge gets to decide what is the right thing to do. The judge gets to decide what he or she wants to believe. The judge had that lady`s life in his hands for as long as he wanted to do so.
GRACE: And here you see her in that video we were just showing you. That was right after she drowned her girls. And it`s totally boo-hoo, all about me, all of her problems, all of her irritations, all of her dreamed- up maladies.
To you, Lauren Lake. This woman had never had psychiatric treatment. She had no history of mental illness whatsoever, other than being a self- absorbed hypochondriac, you know, drinking the Chinese, herbs, rubbing the sage all over her body. Oh!
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, Nancy! Now, you know the defense obviously put on significant evidence that did show that this woman was actually suffering from some type of mental illness.
GRACE: Really? What?
LAKE: They obviously did...
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: ... the testimony, and neither were you. But obviously, if the jury came back with this decision, there was some evidence presented. And obviously, the prosecutor...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: O.J. Simpson did, too. O.J. Simpson walked free, too!
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: You don`t want to start with me on O.J. because O.J....
GRACE: Yes, because he`s a double killer~!
LAKE: There was reasonable doubt all over that case, and obviously, there was an affirmative defense all over this one.
GRACE: You know, I want to go back out to Art Harris, investigative reporter, who has also been covering the case. What can you tell me about this? A, yes, no, Art Harris. You`re on cross.
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy...
GRACE: Had she ever had a history of treatment for mental illness?
HARRIS: No, but her husband and others had recommended she see a psychiatrist. She never did...
GRACE: Only because she was a self-absorbed hypochondriac!
HARRIS: Nancy, she did have a lot of maladies. She actually had foot surgery, too, and she was in a lot of pain. I talked to the prosecutor today, and he said that given the hospital recommendations, the judge just really didn`t have much choice and that -- you know, that today`s decision just underscores the need to reform the insanity defense. But to go back to...
GRACE: Art, I don`t want to hear about the judge making excuses. We just heard from a veteran Texas attorney, and I happen to agree with this defense attorney this time. Why -- that doesn`t even make sense, Art Harris, because why would you go back in front of the judge if the judge didn`t make the final decision? The judge in every case that is not a jury trial, Art -- you`ve covered a ton of cases. The judge, when there`s not a jury, is the final arbiter of the facts and the law, and if he did not want to release this woman after murdering her two children, he didn`t have to!
HARRIS: He could have sent her back for more observation. You`re right, Nancy. But listen to -- you know, the scene of the crime that day, what happened that day, it`s right -- Stephen King couldn`t have written this. She comes home, she picks up her daughter, Misty (ph). She sees two crows on the lawn and thinks that`s an omen, that it`s the day to die, hears voices in her head. The dog won`t come to her, so she sees that as another omen. She goes and she takes the kids to Target. She buys them some toys, Nancy. She takes them home. They play with the toys.
And at that point, she gets a call from her husband, who says, you know, There`s a story -- there`s a kid who was killed in an accident, and he`s actually able to talk to his parents. So she saw that as a sign. The next thing you know, she runs water and drowns her two children, lays them on the bed, and there you have it.
GRACE: You know what? Out to Jean Casarez. This woman had it made! She didn`t have to work. Her husband was an important executive. They had a beautiful home in a great neighborhood. And every day, the man comes home from work, and it`s her problem -- her migraine, her rash, her made- up, imaginary thyroid problem, one thing after the next. The only documented problem she ever had, Jean, is she had foot surgery.
CASAREZ: That is right. Now, Art Harris just said something very significant. She went to Target earlier that day, got the children some toys, and she bought some knives. Well, that`s one of the things that made this into a capital case because prosecutors believed at the time, with their evidence, that she was planning this out. She knew what she was doing. The toys were there to make the children comfortable and feel relaxed, and the knives -- well, we don`t know what they were originally intended for. We know that she did stab herself with the knives after she killed the children.
GRACE: And to clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders. Oh, you know, you notice, nothing happens to her. She stabs herself with a knife. She didn`t die. Her two children died.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, the stab wounds were reported to be very superficial.
I have a different take on this, Nancy. I think this woman is emotionally disturbed. I think she was delusional. There were reports that she heard MRI machines talking to her, evil spirits haunting her. She had command auditory hallucinations. But I also think that she planned her children`s murder and was perfectly aware of it.
I hold the judge and the psychiatrists accountable. The judge ordered her to stay on medication. You know what the statistics are for people who take anti-psychotic medications and stay on them? Between 25 percent and 90 percent of folks on anti-psychotic medication go off it and their mental illness returns because they don`t like the side effects.
GRACE: Joining us tonight is a very special guest. The actually defense attorney on this case is joining us. His name is Robert Udashen. Sir, thank you for being with us. Question. Did your client -- prior to this incident, was she ever hospitalized for psychiatric problems?
ROBERT UDASHEN, DIAZ`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She never was hospitalized for psychiatric problems, although her internist had recommended that she see a psychiatrist. But part of her delusion was she thought she had physical disorders, that she did not have a mental problem, and she never did see a psychiatrist
GRACE: To you -- with us, Robert Udashen. And he is a veteran trial lawyer. He convinced a jury that this lady was not guilty by reason of insanity. There you go, Big Spring State Hospital. You know, it looks like a nice bed and breakfast to me. They have vocational training, animal therapy, Christmas and summer parties. I`ve never had a summer party. I don`t know what that is. They have an on-site consignment shop.
Robert, you clearly did an excellent job. But my question is, what is her actual illness?
UDASHEN: She had a delusional disorder that caused her to think in delusional terms about her own health, and that then became bound up with her children`s health and she thought that she and her children suffered from a myriad of diseases. I know you`ve ticked them off for your audience, but she did go to the doctor numerous times for treatment for these diseases, took her children to the doctor for treatment. And she was never satisfied with the answer she got. She was told that she didn`t have these illnesses and her children didn`t have illnesses. And it`s just unfortunate that she never got the mental health treatment that she needed and that she`s receiving now.
GRACE: Sir, sir, is it Udashen, Robert Udashen?
UDASHEN: Udashen, that`s right.
GRACE: Thank you, sir. With us, Robert Udashen, the defense attorney for Mrs. Diaz. Sir, isn`t it true that the internist told her, Hey, you need to see a psychiatrist, only because she had come in so many times, going, I`m sick, I`m sick, I`m sick, treat me, I want attention, and every time, she was told, Look, lady, there`s nothing wrong with you. They finally said, You need to see a shrink, there`s nothing wrong with you.
UDASHEN: That`s not exactly right. The internist testified at the trial and he did refer her to a psychiatrist because he recognized that she had a mental illness that needed to be treated. And one of the symptoms of that illness was her coming in, thinking that she had these physical symptoms. Her internist, who`s a very good doctor, tried to get her to go to a psychiatrist and...
GRACE: How many times did he tell her to go to a shrink?
UDASHEN: He tried on several different occasions and...
GRACE: Well, is that 1, 3 or 30?
UDASHEN: Probably two or three times. And then her husband also tried to get her to go, but in the mental state that she was in at the time, she didn`t think she needed a psychiatrist.
GRACE: Who didn`t think she needed a psychiatrist?
UDASHEN: Mrs. Diaz, and that`s why she didn`t go.
GRACE: Back to you, Jean Casarez. That day, when she went to Target to the get the items she need to commit double murder on her children, did she act unusually at the Target? Did she go through the checkout without a credit card, drive the car? Did she run any red lights? Did she throw food on the wall? Did she break down and sob on the floor in a fetal position? Give me something, Jean! Give me something to hold onto! These two little kids are dead!
CASAREZ: That`s right. No, I think she was very normal at the Target. I think she even called her husband that afternoon sounding very normal. And then after the children were killed, she wouldn`t open the door to her mother or to her daughter, her older daughter. And the garage door was half up and half down, and her husband found it difficult to even get in. When he finally, though, got into the house, she said, you know, Something`s happened to the girls. And when she finally went to jail, she said, I have done something terrible.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Amy in Pennsylvania. Hi, Amy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I don`t think this is legal, but can they do anything to prevent her from having more children and killing more children?
GRACE: Believe me, several members of my staff have suggested that. But let me tell you something, Amy. The ACLU would be all over you like white (ph) on rice (ph), OK, if you suggested that this lady not have more children. But she is within child-bearing age. There is one legal hope.
Let`s release the lawyers again. Unchain Lauren Lake and Paul Looney. Paul, they only went forward on the murder of one little girl, the 5-year- old, not Kamryn. I think I`ve got that right. There was Kamryn and Briana. They can still try her on the murder of the other little girl.
LOONEY: Well, legally, they can. It`s very, very doubtful that they will, given the outcome of the previous trial and the fact that the verdict came back fairly quickly. It`s doubtful that they will, but legally they could.
GRACE: And what about it, Lauren Lake? See any problem with a retrial on the second child?
LAKE: Oh, they shouldn`t even try it, Nancy. Obviously, they put forth all the case they had, pretty much the same facts and evidence that would go with one child...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: They got a kooky jury.
LAKE: And they got -- well, obviously, they have a legally insane defendant, and you would argue a legally insane jury. However, it has been adjudicated and done. They`re not going to waste taxpayers` time doing it again.
GRACE: OK, wa! Wa! Wa! WA! Wait a moment. All the time, isn`t this true, Paul Looney, when there is a mistrial or sometimes a remand of a case from an appellate court, cases get retried all the time, Paul Looney. One of the first cases I had as a DA was a case that had been tried when I was in law school. Went all the way up to the circuit court of appeals and had to be retried. It happens all the time.
LOONEY: Nancy, this is different. If they retry it this time, they`ll be retrying it because they -- they`re effectively saying, I don`t like the outcome of the first trial, when there was a final outcome that everybody agreed was a final outcome the first time.
GRACE: Oh, so you two defense attorneys want a bargain basement deal. You want one trial for two victims, when this little 3-year-old wasn`t even named on the indictment.
I want to go to Dr. Jonathan Arden for a moment, physician and medical examiner joining us out of the D.C. jurisdiction. Dr. Arden, what did these children experience by drowning? And PS, this was done in her husband`s bathtub, in the master bathtub. If that`s not a psychological 911, I don`t know what is.
DR. JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It obviously can`t be a very pleasant experience to be drowned at the hands of another person. I mean, you have - the idea that the water covers your face and goes down into your nose, mouth, into your airways...
GRACE: And the last thing they saw was Mommy!
ARDEN: ... and it`s -- you can`t breathe. You have air hunger. You fight for air. You fight to get to the surface. And it`s got to be a very bad situation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: You`re seeing a montage of killer moms, and you`re hearing "Unforgiven" by Metallica. That`s what Melissa Drexler requested after she murdered her little boy and threw him in the trash, and she danced up a storm to "Unforgiven." Andrea Yates, the poster mom for killer moms. Of course, there`s Dena Schlosser. She killed her 2-month-old daughter by cutting the child`s arms off.
Deanna Laney, known as Rot (ph) Mom, beat her two sons to death by crushing their heads with a stone. And of course, one of the most notorious, Susan Smith, was jealous her boyfriend was leaving her and killed her two little boys by rolling her car into a pond with them seat- belted in. Jessica Coleman -- she delivered her baby in the bathroom, stabbed the baby in the chest, put him in a duffel bag in the closet, and then had her boyfriend dispose of the body. Why do we give moms a break?
Back to you, Dr. Arden. Drowning -- does it cause a heart attack? It`s lack of oxygen? What physically happens to the child`s body?
ARDEN: It`s very much a lack of oxygen. This is one form of asphyxiation, which really means deprivation of oxygen to the point of causing damage to the brain and ultimately death. This is the most extreme example because you can`t breathe at all. You don`t have a diminution of oxygen, you have no oxygen, no breathing. There`s liquid filling your airways, and so on and so forth. And so you also have issues with reflexes, when you gag or choke, and it prevents passage of anything. And it`s a very unpleasant experience, and something that likely will cause you to die fairly rapidly.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A dark day for the United States, John Hinckley opens fire on President Ronald Reagan, also shooting James Brady, from that day on, always in a wheelchair. There he is. He`s dressed up in his Brooks Brothers blazer. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now is allowed supervised visits back home in his neighborhood.
Out to the lines. Michele in New York. I`d hate to look out the kitchen window and see John Hinckley walking across the backyard!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What is your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d just like to tell you, thank you for saying it the way it is. My question is...
GRACE: Bless you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is getting out of hand. There are so many mothers, you know, claiming insanity and getting away with this. When is there going to be a reform in that law of guilty by reason of insanity? When? There`s always premeditation involved.
GRACE: Well, I tell you, it`s simple Trial 101. What we`ve got is the McNaughten test, and what that is, is a law brought over from Great Britain, it`s called common law, that says if you don`t know right from wrong at the time of the incident, you`re crazy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For days now, Michelle Young`s friends and family have grieved privately. Today, they grieved inside and out of the Brown- Wynne Funeral Home on Raleigh`s Saint Mary`s Street. For some friends, it was the day the reality of her tragic death set in.
LAURA STUDDARD, FORMER CO-WORKER OF MICHELLE YOUNG: Today it`s a little bit more real.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Laura Studdard used to work with Michelle. Michelle was five months pregnant when her sister discovered her body at the Young home just south of Raleigh Friday. The woman`s 2-year-old daughter had been alone in the house with her dead mother possibly for more than 12 hours.
DISPATCHER: All right, what`s the problem? Tell me exactly what happened.
MEREDITH FISHER, FOUND SISTER`S BODY: I think my sister`s dead.
DISPATCHER: OK, tell me what happened, ma`am.
FISHER: I have no idea. Oh, my God.
DISPATCHER: All right, stay on the phone with me, please. What`s your name?
FISHER: Meredith Fisher.
DISPATCHER: Meredith.
FISHER: And this is the Young address. Oh, my God.
DISPATCHER: Meredith, listen to me, please.
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: Are you with the patient now?
FISHER: Yes (INAUDIBLE) with her daughter.
DISPATCHER: OK, how old`s the patient?
FISHER: And there`s blood everywhere. She`s 28, 29.
DISPATCHER: Twenty-eight?
FISHER: Should I try to move her?
DISPATCHER: Listen to me, ma`am.
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: I`m going to tell you what to do but you need to calm down so you can help her. You said there is blood everywhere?
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: Is she conscious?
FISHER: No, I don`t think so. Should I try to help her?
DISPATCHER: Listen to me, ma`am.
FISHER: I`m listening.
DISPATCHER: Is she breathing?
FISHER: I don`t think so.
DISPATCHER: Have you checked?
FISHER: Michelle? She`s cold.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 29-year-old mom, a championship cheerleader found murdered inside her Raleigh home. Her 2-year-old daughter found there at the crime scene.
Let`s go straight out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez. Jeanne, what happened?
JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: A week ago Thursday night -- let`s start the time line, all right, of what we know so far -- her husband, Jason Young, left on a business trip Thursday night. At 10:30 that night, some friends came over to the house, and we believe that`s the last time anyone saw her.
Now, let`s take it up to Friday at 1:30 in the afternoon. Law enforcement is saying Jason Young, her husband, called from out of town to her sister asking her to go over to the couple`s home, because he got a fax -- it`s believed -- and he didn`t want his wife possibly to see it. So Michelle Young`s sister went over and found her body at 1:30 last Friday.
GRACE: What kind of fax would a husband get that he didn`t want his wife to see?
CASAREZ: I think there`s the question. There are so many unanswered questions right now. Law enforcement, they do not want to talk because they`re collecting evidence, they are investigating this very aggressively.
GRACE: To Art Harris, investigative reporter, what can you tell me about the crime scene? And what line of business was the husband in?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: He was a salesman, Nancy. The crime scene was incredibly bloody, just a horrible, horrible scene. And they have since taken some samples, some blood samples from the husband, and have taken material evidence from the scene, and are very closed mouth about where they stand in the investigation. They`ve started a time line, and they want to see where he was at every step during that period.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, Art told me he`s a salesman. What did he sell? And why did he have to go out of town on a business trip?
CASAREZ: You know, he was a salesman. He went out of town about 300 miles away.
GRACE: Did he fly or drive?
CASAREZ: I believe he drove. So that would be -- if you`re going around 55 or so, that`s about a six-hour drive. He stayed with his parents though. He was with his family 300 miles away when he found out his wife had died.
GRACE: How did he find out?
CASAREZ: I believe he got a phone call, and then he and his family came back. And immediate law enforcement impounded his car, along with his suitcase, all of his belongings, and those of the rest of his family that was with him.
GRACE: As well as the cell phones, correct?
CASAREZ: I believe so, the cell phones, also.
GRACE: OK, now, let me get this straight. He leaves the evening before, for a business trip?
CASAREZ: Thursday night, that`s correct.
GRACE: He leaves. Do we have any idea what time he left?
CASAREZ: I don`t think we do, no.
GRACE: Yes. Do we know what time he arrived at the parents?
CASAREZ: I don`t think we do, no. All we know, that it was about a 300-mile trip.
GRACE: If he was going on a business trip, why was he staying with his family? That sounds like a visit.
CASAREZ: I think they lived close and he wanted to visit them, but law enforcement have said they`re very interested, between the hours of 12:30 a.m. and 6:00 or 6:30 a.m., so they`re interested in all those evenings in the middle of the night.
GRACE: To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner, the sister found the body. How can you tell how long someone has been dead to place the time of death?
JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: There are several different features you can use, and of course you can only estimate a time of death. You can`t precisely determine it.
But in the earlier hours or up to about a day or so, you look at the stiffening of the muscles after death, called rigor mortis. You look at the settling of the blood after death, due to gravity, because your heart is no longer circulating it. And so it settles to whichever side is down, and people get red or purple. That`s called livor mortis, or lividity. You look at body temperature.
GRACE: Don`t they get livor mortis from depending on what position they`re lying in, the blood settles downward in the body?
ARDEN: That`s exactly what happens. It`s all a matter of gravity, and so it goes downward relative to whatever position you`re in at the time. Of course, if you then move somebody, turn them over, you may end up with lividity that is on the wrong side, and that would be an indication of somebody who`s moved the body or altered the crime scene, that kind of thing.
But I`m very concerned about this one, because -- and I want to throw a little curveball at you, Nancy -- is law enforcement says it`s a homicide. Law enforcement says the medical examiner says homicide. We haven`t heard the specifics of the injuries. How do we know for sure that this is even a homicide?
GRACE: Well, I know it was blunt force trauma.
ARDEN: Yes, we have blunt force trauma. We have no forced entry. We have no weapon. We have the child who`s there who hasn`t been injured. We don`t know, at least at this point, if she was a target of some sort of assailant.
If this were truly a homicide, a murder, you would have blood all over the place, as we have. You would have blood on a weapon. We have no weapon. You would have an assailant tracking blood with him.
GRACE: Dr. Arden, stop thinking like a doctor and start thinking like a killer! Why don`t you just wrap the weapon up in a Tiffany`s bow and send it to the police officer? Of course we don`t have the weapon. They got rid of the weapon.
ARDEN: Probably got rid of the weapon, but why aren`t there -- for instance, I`ve heard that there are footprints from the child in the blood. Makes perfect sense. Are there any footprints from another adult who probably would have been tracking around the scene? I`m just saying that, as much as this all looks on the face like a homicide and may end up being exactly that, you also have the issue of sometimes people fall down...
GRACE: I think you`re leaving something out. Oh, please. Oh, come on. Fall down and die, a 29-year-old championship cheerleader falls down and dies?
And another thing, how long was that baby -- hold on, Dr. Arden. Hold on just a moment. Let`s go out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, former fed with the FBI. Mike, the fact that the baby`s bloody footprints were there and not the killer`s means nothing to me, because this child was clearly there for a long time. The killer likely hit the mom and left. The baby was there walking around, trying to revive the mom, sitting by the mom. There`s no reason the killer`s bloody footprints should be anywhere.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: I mean, absolutely not, Nancy, because he`s not going to hang around the house. And, you know, the daughter running all around, didn`t know what to do. There`s going to be her footprints there.
Now, they said there`s blunt force trauma. Did she beat herself to death? I seriously doubt that. And, you know, there was no sign of forced entry. This wasn`t a, you know, random. The door was open. You know, it had...
GRACE: Nothing stolen.
BROOKS: Right.
GRACE: There was no sex attack.
BROOKS: Exactly. And there`s some other things interesting, too, Nancy.
GRACE: And it was ransacked, too?
BROOKS: It appears to have been. But there are some other things very interesting. What was it that her husband didn`t want her to see in the fax? And what was her relationship of the husband with her sister? That`s a very -- that`s a question that I have. And, you know, they`re not saying too much. They`re holding it pretty close to the vest in this case, Nancy, but there`s a lot of questions yet to be unanswered.
GRACE: No one named a suspect. Let`s go to the lines. Andrica in Georga, hi, Andrica.
CALLER: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Well, I want to know, do they think that it might possibly be a murder for hire?
GRACE: I can tell you one thing, Andrica. If it is, it will unravel, because it`s really tough for two people to keep their yaps shut. And very often, that will come out in the wash. But a lot of people immediately focus on the husband or boyfriend, because statistically they are responsible. But in this case, the husband was 300 miles away. What I`m interested in, to Mike Brooks, your theory on murder for hire is the time of death.
BROOKS: Absolutely.
GRACE: The time of death, who says she couldn`t have been killed right after those friends left?
BROOKS: That`s exactly right. And, I mean, they have to establish a time line. I`m sure they`re trying to do that right now. And the husband also better be able to account for himself, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, hold on, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike. Very quickly, we`re going to have non-testimonial evidence. It`s "Trial 101."
BROOKS: Absolutely.
GRACE: A court can compel someone, even not a suspect, to give fingerprints, voice, shoe size, handwriting samples, you name it. We`re going to have that in this case, too.
BROOKS: And they already have. They apparently already have taken his fingerprints. They`ve taken other things from him. And I thought it was a good move by the sheriff to go ahead and take everything from that family, impound his car, check that car for any trace evidence, hairs, fibers, just in case he was involved in this, but a lot of questions still remain unanswered, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: All right, what`s the problem? Tell me exactly what happened.
MEREDITH FISHER, FOUND SISTER`S BODY: I think my sister`s dead.
DISPATCHER: OK, tell me what happened, ma`am.
FISHER: I have no idea. Oh, my God.
DISPATCHER: All right, stay on the phone with me, please. What`s your name?
FISHER: Meredith Fisher.
DISPATCHER: Meredith.
FISHER: And this is the Young address. Oh, my God.
DISPATCHER: Meredith, listen to me, please.
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: Are you with the patient now?
FISHER: Yes (INAUDIBLE) with her daughter.
DISPATCHER: OK, how old`s the patient?
FISHER: And there`s blood everywhere. She`s 28, 29.
DISPATCHER: Twenty-eight?
FISHER: Should I try to move her?
DISPATCHER: Listen to me, ma`am.
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: I`m going to tell you what to do but you need to calm down so you can help her. You said there is blood everywhere?
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: Is she conscious?
FISHER: No, I don`t think so. Should I try to help her?
DISPATCHER: Listen to me, ma`am.
FISHER: I`m listening.
DISPATCHER: Is she breathing?
FISHER: I don`t think so.
DISPATCHER: Have you checked?
FISHER: Michelle? She`s cold.
DISPATCHER: OK, ma`am?
FISHER: OK, yes, sir.
DISPATCHER: OK. You got a cordless phone?
FISHER: Yes. Stay right there, sweetie. OK.
DISPATCHER: Is she laying on her back?
FISHER: No, she`s laying on her stomach.
DISPATCHER: She`s on her stomach. She`s face-down?
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: All right. Can you get her on her back?
FISHER: OK. Oh, my God. Michelle -- I don`t think so. She`s so heavy.
DISPATCHER: See if you can get her on back.
FISHER: I really think she`s dead.
DISPATCHER: Pardon?
FISHER: I really think she`s dead.
DISPATCHER: Are you certain?
FISHER: Hang on. Cassidy, sweetie, please go in your room? OK, honey? I`m pretty sure.
DISPATCHER: You are?
FISHER: No, I don`t know.
DISPATCHER: OK, we need to make sure.
FISHER: OK.
DISPATCHER: Can you get her on her back for me?
FISHER: She`s kind of twisted in a way that I can`t do that.
DISPATCHER: You can`t roll her over?
FISHER: Not easily.
DISPATCHER: You`re going to have to try.
FISHER: Hang on a minute. I`m trying to see if I can get her pulse.
DISPATCHER: We got to try to do CPR if we can get her on her back, Meredith.
FISHER: No, she`s cold.
DISPATCHER: She`s cold?
FISHER: Yes.
DISPATCHER: All right.
FISHER: Her body is stiff.
DISPATCHER: OK, then don`t try. If she`s cold then...
FISHER: Oh, my God.
DISPATCHER: There`s nothing you can do.
FISHER: Should I not touch anything?
DISPATCHER: All right. Try not to touch anything more than you did. Was anything out of place or unusual when you came in?
FISHER: This place does not look like it what it normally looks like.
DISPATCHER: OK, what...
FISHER: There`s blood in the bed.
DISPATCHER: OK, all right, try not to touch anything else, OK?
FISHER: OK, I just moved a pillow.
DISPATCHER: All right. Just leave everything exactly where it is then.
FISHER: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 29-year-old mom, four months pregnant, a former championship cheerleader found bludgeoned to death in her own home. Straight back out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, also a fed with the FBI, what else glares at you about this crime scene?
BROOKS: I`ll tell you, you know, Nancy, just not apparently nothing was what it was. So, you know, was it staged? Was she killed and then staged to make it look like it was ransack? Nothing was missing, though, apparently.
GRACE: Why would there be blood in the bed?
BROOKS: That`s a good question. You know, did it occur there, and then the body was moved? You know, that would be one of the questions. Or did the little girl, did she track blood into the bed?
They`re going to be able to tell if it was the blood from the little girl brought it there or if it was her blood splatter. I mean, if it was blunt force trauma, there`s going to be all kinds of different blood splatter. And they`re going to tell exactly where, you know, the murder took place, in what room.
GRACE: Right, they can definitely tell from just looking at the blood whether it was a spatter, a smear, a trail, a drop. And it`s all very significant.
Out to Ricky in North Carolina, hi, Ricky.
CALLER: Hi. How are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
CALLER: We love you over here, let me tell you.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is, why didn`t the husband fax the wife instead of the sister?
GRACE: Well, from my understanding -- correct me if I`m wrong, Jean Casarez -- a fax was coming the house that for some reason he did not want the wife to see, he says, and sent the sister -- is it his blood sister or his sister-in-law, Jean Casarez -- to the home to get the fax?
CASAREZ: It`s his sister-in-law. And remember, Michelle Young worked. She was a senior tax consultant with a large firm in the Raleigh area. So maybe she wasn`t supposed to be home during the day so he sent his sister-in-law in.
GRACE: Interesting, interesting. Let`s go out to the lawyers, both veteran trial lawyers, Paul Looney and Lauren Lake.
Paul, the husband, who is not a suspect, has been asked to give non- testimonial evidence. There`s no way out of that, whether you`re a suspect or not a suspect. The judge can order you to do that or you can be forced to do it under a search warrant. Explain.
PAUL LOONEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the fact is that the suspect doesn`t have a right to things that are observable by the public being kept from the public. All he has a right to keep private are his thoughts, ideas and communications. And given that he doesn`t have a right to keep his fingerprints, his voice, things of that nature private...
GRACE: Right.
LOONEY: ... they have passed laws that make it easy to go ahead and get it. And they do that pretty perfunctorily.
GRACE: Yes. And, of course, Lauren Lake, that in no way suggests that he has been narrowed down as the target.
LOONEY: Oh, no, no, no. They would do that for anybody that they think might have had access to that house.
GRACE: Right. Lauren, agree or disagree?
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I absolutely agree, Nancy. However, I do want to advocate for the good doctor who was trying to tell you a little earlier that we just don`t know what happened here and whether or not it was a homicide, whether it was the husband.
GRACE: You think you know more than the cops?
LAKE: We just don`t know, Nancy.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, why did the cops call it a homicide if she somehow did a back flip and hit her head and died there?
BROOKS: I doubt -- they said blunt force trauma. I doubt if she beat herself to death, Nancy. You know, and hit her head?
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: They would be able to tell. They would be able to tell if she fell and hit her head.
GRACE: But you know what? You know what? Mike, we have to give Lauren Lake and Paul Looney an A for effort. If I ever am charged with murder, I`ll definitely bring you two on as co-counsel.
Art Harris, what else can you tell us?
HARRIS: Well, I can tell you, Nancy, that if they can establish the time of death, they can backtrack it. Perhaps the little girl was asleep at the time, she gets up and finds her mother.
The way the sister has described this body as cold and stiff, you know, you would have to track it way back, because you`re talking about, what, to 12 hours when they found the body. And let`s say, you know, you`ve got a guy who is 300 miles away. One thing they will be ruling out is, could he have driven five hours?
GRACE: You mean after? Could he have killed her and then driven to the home?
HARRIS: Could he have driven to the home and back to his parents?
GRACE: Right, right.
HARRIS: To wake up the next morning.
GRACE: And very quickly, Dr. Patricia Saunders, again, the husband has not been named a target in this case, but why are they always the first target of investigation?
DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Two reasons, Nancy. During your coverage of the Scott Peterson trial, we learned that the leading cause of homicide in pregnant women, the leading cause of death in pregnant women is homicide, and that the majority of those cases, the perpetrator is the spouse.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, to all those who served our country on Veterans` Day, we honor you. Organist Elizabeth Grace accompanies a little girl with a big, big voice, Allison Johnson (ph). They have something special for our vets, our show`s favorite song, "America the Beautiful."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): Oh, say, can you see by the dawn`s early light what so proudly we hailed at the twilight`s last gleaming? Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight, o`er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets` red glare, the bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night that our flag was still there. Oh, say, does that star- spangled banner yet wave o`er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
GRACE: A special good night to friends of the show, Ann and Mike, Mary, Michael and Casey. Wave good night, everybody. Until tomorrow night, at 8:00 sharp Eastern, good night, friend.
END
