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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Political and Military Choices Facing White House; Rising Pressure Among Democrats for Iraq Withdrawal; Iraq Strategy
Aired November 13, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, President Bush and the Democratic Party appear to be on a collision course over Iraq. The president says conditions on the ground should determine U.S. strategy. Democrats say the United State should begin withdrawing our troops within four to six months.
We'll have complete coverage.
And is bipartisanship already dead in Washington just one week after the Democratic election victory? The chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, joins us.
I'll also be talking with one of the Democrats most powerful lawmakers, Congressman Charlie Rangel, set to take over Ways and Means.
All of that, a great deal more, straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Monday, November 13th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
President Bush and congressional Democrats tonight appear to already be on the verge of a bitter partisan fight over the direction of the war in Iraq. President Bush today said Iraq must have a government that can sustain itself, govern itself and defend itself. But many Democrats appear determined to begin withdrawal of our troops as soon as possible, regardless of conditions in Iraq. The top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Carl Levin, today said our troops should begin leaving within the next four months.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from the White House tonight on the political and military choices facing the Bush White House.
Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill on the rising pressure among Democrats for a speedy withdrawal from Iraq.
And Barbara Starr reporting tonight from the Pentagon on the military's efforts to come up with recommendations to improve U.S. strategy in Iraq.
We turn first to Suzanne Malveaux at the White House -- Suzanne. SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the president certainly is under a lot of pressure to actually show that he really is open to those fresh ideas that he is talking about, and today, of course, meeting with the Iraqi Study Group is certainly a big part of that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice over): With the American public's anger over the lack of progress in Iraq now at a boiling point, President Bush met with the bipartisan commission charged with finding solutions.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was pleased to meet with them. I was impressed by the quality of the -- of their membership. I was impressed by the questions they asked. They are -- they want us to succeed in Iraq, just like I want to succeed.
MALVEAUX: The Iraq Study Group, led by former secretary of state James Baker and former Democratic congressman Lee Hamilton, is widely viewed as Mr. Bush's last chance to find a face-saving way to address the failures in Iraq.
BUSH: I'm looking forward to interesting ideas.
MALVEAUX: The White House and panel members are reluctant to talk about any specific ideas yet.
BUSH: I'm not going to prejudge the Baker commission's report.
MALVEAUX: But there are broad recommendations that are being debated. One controversial one is withdrawing U.S. troops in phases to get the Iraqis to step up and take more responsibility. It's a measure that has some political support from both sides of the aisle, but President Bush is unwilling to sign off on anything yet.
BUSH: I believe that it's very important, though, for people making suggestions to recognize that the best military options depend upon the conditions on the ground.
MALVEAUX: Another controversial measure calls for the U.S. to reach out to Syria and Iran, to use their regional influence to calm the situation in Iraq. But President Bush sidestepped a question as to whether that's a possibility. The Bush administration is cautious that new diplomatic efforts could send the wrong message.
Some policy experts disagree.
RICHARD HAASS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Engagement is not reward. Diplomacy is not a favor. We have a real problem in Iraq. Clearly, the alternatives are not looking good. Talking to these neighboring countries makes sense.
MALVEAUX: There are indications that immediately withdrawing American troops or partitioning Iraq along Ethnic lines have been largely rejected by the Iraq Study Group, while other recommendations have appeared to gain overall support, such as holding an international peace conference, pressuring the Iraqi government to reconcile civil differences, and beefing up training of Iraqi security forces.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And Lou, of course there's a realization here that whatever the recommendations are that the White House and the panel agree on, the future of Iraq is largely out of the Bush administration's control and dependent on the events that happen on the ground there -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.
Many congressional Democrats now say their election victory gives them a mandate to seek a quick U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. The senior Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, in fact, Senator Carl Levin, today said, "We cannot save the Iraqis from themselves."
But congressional Republicans and some Democrats remain strongly opposed to any timetable for withdrawal.
Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: We should pressure the White House to commence the phased redeployment of U.S. troops from Iraq in four to six months.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Carl Levin, the Senate's top Democrat on military matters, says a strongly- worded resolution would push the administration to heed the election message: change course and insist Iraqis become more self-sufficient.
LEVIN: The president will now be able to see that he's got to find a new mechanism to let the Iraqis know that this action is needed by them, that they must take these steps, and that in any event, we can't be their security blanket.
BASH: Levin's proposal would be the first big test of whether congressional Democrats can really use their new power to change U.S.- Iraq policy. The resolution would be non-binding, symbolic, its political strength dependent on how many Republicans will embrace withdrawing troops.
An immediate sign of how hard that could be, Republican senator Lindsey Graham warns Iraq is in chaos, yet he quickly rejected the Democrats' proposal. "To start withdrawing troops would be equivalent to surrendering in the central battlefront in the war on terror," Graham said. "A misguided proposal such as this should hit a wall in the Senate."
The Democratic leader says their plan is no surrender. SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: Does this mean pulling all the troops out now? Of course it doesn't. But it does say we must start redeploying troops as soon as possible.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Now, there is another test going on of the Democrats' post-election Iraq message. Right now in the House there's a power struggle going on for the number two slot in the leadership -- of the Democratic leadership in the House, that is. Incoming House speaker Nancy Pelosi stepped off the sidelines in that fight last night and says she is going to endorse John Murtha for House majority leader, not Steny Hoyer, the man in line for that job.
Now, Pelosi is doing that in part because of her affinity for Murtha. They're long-time friends and allies. And she has a rivalry with Hoyer.
But there is another reason why Pelosi says she is backing John Murtha, and that is because she says of his high profile in opposing the Iraq work and doing so very early. And she says that really helped to change the direction of the election debate and perhaps help give Democrats the majority here -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you.
Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
Insurgents have killed seven more of our troops in Iraq. Two soldiers were killed in Baghdad. Two were killed north of the Iraqi capital. And three of our soldiers were killed in Al Anbar province.
Thirty-three of our troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month, 2,851 of our troops have been killed.
Insurgents stepping up their attacks as well against Iraqi civilians today. In one of those attacks, a suicide bomber killed at least 10 people on a bus in northern Baghdad. Seventeen others were wounded.
The general in charge of all our troops in the Middle East, General John Abizaid, today met with the Iraqi prime minister in Baghdad. General Abizaid told the prime minister the United States remains committed to success in Iraq, but as General Abizaid delivered that message our military continued working on new options for Iraq.
Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Senior U.S. military commanders are writing their own options for the next steps in Iraq, work they had secretly begun even before the midterm elections.
LEVIN: They are scrubbing now possible options that they can recommend to the president.
STARR: The generals have known for weeks they must find a way to bring troops home sooner rather than later. Joint Chiefs chairman Peter Pace began closed-door meetings weeks ago with officers recently back from Iraq.
GEN. PETER PACE, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CHAIRMAN: I think the serious issue on the table is, what are the strategic objectives of the United States in the war on terrorism? And what is going right in the pursuit of those objectives? And what is not going right and should be changed?
STARR: This Friday, Pace and the chiefs will meet in the tank, their highly-secure Pentagon conference room, to begin finalizing their plans.
In Baghdad, General John Abizaid told Prime Minister Nouri al- Maliki Monday that his government must exert more control. Abizaid will be on Capitol Hill Wednesday, the first senior commander to testify since the election.
The incoming chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee already is pressing for a phased withdrawal of U.S. troops as a means of pressuring the Iraqis.
LEVIN: It's not a matter of training 100 percent or 90 percent or 80 percent, or equipping 100 percent or 90 percent or 80 percent of the Iraqi forces. It's a matter of political will in Iraq. That is the key ingredient which has been missing.
STARR: With Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on his way out, Levin thinks the generals will now be more candid.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: But Lou, neither General Abizaid nor General Pace are quite tipping their hand yet about what they plan to tell Congress and what their recommendations will be. However, if they do suddenly get more candid, the question may be, where was that candor a few months ago -- Lou.
DOBBS: Barbara, thank you.
Barbara Starr from the Pentagon.
Still ahead here, I'll be talking with the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, and Congressman Charlie Rangel. He's set to be the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee.
Also tonight, a communist Chinese submarine stalking one of our aircraft carriers, surfacing within firing range without detection.
We'll have that special report.
And an illegal alien using the protection of the church, avoiding deportation, using her 7-year-old son as a political pawn.
We'll have that story.
And middle class families struggling to survive falling even deeper into debt trying to pay for their children's college education.
Those stories, a great deal more, straight ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Illegal alien Elvira Arellano remains in a Chicago church tonight, where she is trying to avoid being deported once again to Mexico. She says she's taking a stand so that she can remain in the United States to be with her young son. That's the reason she says she took refuge in that church.
But tonight her son is in Mexico, preparing to ask for help from the Mexican government.
Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Seven-year-old Saul Arellano is again being thrust into the spotlight by his fugitive illegal alien mother and her supporters.
SAUL ARELLANO, SON OF ILLEGAL ALIEN: Because I want my mom to stay here with me.
WIAN: Elvira Arellano is seeking sanctuary from deportation in this Chicago Methodist church because she says there's no way she could feed her American citizen son in her Mexican homeland. So, instead, she's sending Saulito, as he's called, south of the border.
He's scheduled to speak to both houses of Mexico's Congress Tuesday.
ELVIRA ARELLANO, ILLEGAL ALIEN: This is important for the congressmen and senators from Mexico to help me and help other families.
WIAN: Elvira Arellano was convicted of using a phony Social Security number to get a job at O'Hare Airport and has taken refuge at the church for three months. Saul Arellano has been taken all over the United States, including to the White House gates, to plead his mother's case. Now he'll ask Mexican officials to pressure the White House to grant amnesty to millions of illegal aliens living north of the border.
The minister providing Arellano's sanctuary says the U.S. and Mexican governments are responsible because they've maintained a virtually open border.
REV. WALTER COLEMAN, ADELANTO METHODIST CHURCH: Both countries have benefited economically, often at the exploitation of those people. And what we're saying now is they have to take responsibility for that system.
WIAN: Incredibly, the Methodist church stands behind the apparent exploitation of a 7-year-old boy.
BISHOP MINERVA CARCANO, UNITED METHODIST CHURCH: Immigrant families often find themselves in situations where the whole family contributes to the cause. And I believe that this is that kind of a situation.
WIAN: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials say they have no plans to enter the store-front church to apprehend Elvira Arellano.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: But they also say her deportation is a matter -- is not a matter of if, but a matter of when. And with nearly 600,000 fugitive illegal aliens now living in the United States, when may be a long time coming -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Casey.
Casey Wian.
Another American town tonight trying to take on illegal immigration because the federal government simply will not. Farmers Branch, Texas, proposed making English the official language of the community and barring businesses to hire or landlords to rent to illegal aliens.
Illegal alien supporters are resorting to intimidation and in at least in one case vandalism. The phrase "Viva Mexico" was spray- painted on the home of Farmers Branch, Texas, mayor Bob Phelps. Farmers Branch joins a number of towns, cities, communities all across the country taking action on their own.
But one town tonight is having its efforts blocked. A lawsuit forcing Freehold, New Jersey, to back off its efforts to restrict day- laborers and the people who hire them in their community.
That bring us to the subject of tonight's poll. Do you support towns such as Farmers Branch that want to make English their official language, fine companies that hire illegal aliens, and ban landlords from leasing to illegal aliens? Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
Turning now to the escalating communist Chinese military threat and challenge to the United States. Chinese submarines now appear to be capable of operating undetected near our aircraft carriers.
Christine Romans is here tonight and has the report -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Navy is confirming tonight something first reported in "The Washington Times," that a Chinese diesel-powered submarine trailed the USS Kitty Hawk and surfaced in proximity of the carrier group before it was detected.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice over): The commander of the U.S. Pacific fleet, Admiral Gary Roughead is in Beijing on a goodwill mission with the communist Chinese, barely two weeks after a Chinese sub shadowed the USS Kitty Hawk undetected before surfacing just five miles from the carrier group, an incident first reported in "The Washington Times."
Author and China expert Gordon Chang calls it a brazen military act with a political message.
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "NUCLEAR SHOWDOWN": What they were saying by surfacing, by disclosing where they were, is to say, don't come near Taiwan, don't come near Japan or South Korea. Don't even think of defending these areas, because we will sink your ships.
ROMANS: The stalking of the Kitty Hawk seen as a serious stumble for the U.S. policy of building military-to-military ties with communist Chinese.
In Beijing, Admiral Roughead getting ready for joint exercises, hoping to build relationships, but questioning China's growing sub fleet.
ADM. GARY ROUGHEAD, COMMANDER, U.S. PACIFIC FLEET: I look forward to having discussions about what the vision is and perhaps what some of the operating doctrine might be.
ROMANS: That the U.S. will need protocols for dealing with China, there is no doubt.
PETER LORGE, VANDERBILT UNIV.: I think we're just going to see this increasingly over the next decades and, indeed, throughout the century, as China develops a navy that can challenge the U.S. Navy, if not internationally then at least regionally.
ROMANS: The Navy trying to downplay the incident. In a statement to CNN, "In late October, Kitty Hawk strike group was conducting routine training operations in the East China Sea. We were near the island of Okinawa and a Chinese song class submarine was sighted near the strike group by a U.S. Navy aircraft."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: That's an understatement, according to a lot of people who are watching this. Wordsmithing on the official statement about this incident. The military careful not to make this seem controversial because the commander of the Pacific fleet is in Beijing right now -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, there is something that we can take up with Congressman Duncan Hunter. A fact that a diesel-powered submarine has the ability to move undetected into a carrier group, that is outrageous. And the commander of PACCOM to be in Beijing? This is unbelievable. ROMANS: Quoted as saying earlier today that he does not see China's military as a threat.
DOBBS: He may not. But he is responsible for PACCOM and that fleet. And one wonders what in the world the repercussions will be. Accountability, if any, among our general staff in the U.S. military, it will be interesting to see whether that will be asserted given a new political climate.
Thank you very much.
Christine Romans.
Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez is also in China tonight. The secretary of commerce is there trying to boost demand for U.S.- made products. U.S. exports to China tally $40 billion. Imports from China at record heights, leaving the trade deficit with China so far this year at $166 billion, on its way to eclipsing last year's record of $202 billion.
The commerce secretary said he hopes to decrease that deficit by raising U.S. exports. That is a boffo idea, in my opinion. The commerce secretary wants the Chinese to relax restrictions to give American businesses fair access to the Chinese market.
What's difficult to understand about that is it has been this administration throughout running up record trade deficits with China that has said it's all about free trade. We'll see.
Coming up next, middle class Americans tonight will have an even more difficult time paying for a quality education for their children.
We'll have that report.
Old questions about the new secretary of defense nominee.
We'll be exploring those.
And we'll have a report on allegations of politically slanted intelligence.
And Congressman Duncan Hunter joins us, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. We'll be talking about Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation, his successor, the outlook for Iraq, and what in the world our Pacific fleet is doing.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight in the war on the middle class, the soaring cost of higher education. With tuition rates more than doubling the rate of inflation each year, the cost of college has become simply out of reach for many of our middle class families. And if students are looking to our government for help, well, often they have to look elsewhere because many of those options have been taken away. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): If the parents of this newborn want to send him to college, the cost will have doubled by the time he's in fourth grade and tripled by the time he's ready to walk on to a campus. The tuition tax break is gone. Tax deductions for tuition expired in 2005 and Congress has not renewed them.
MARK KANTROWITZ, FINAID.ORG: Certainly it's becoming much more difficult for the middle class to pay for a college education. The tuition and fees deduction which was targeted at the middle class expired at the end of 2005.
PILGRIM: Going to a private college is the financial equivalent of buying a very expensive car every year for four years in a row. And costs have soared at public colleges as well. Web site financialaid.org says it would be reasonable to expect an average college inflation rate of 7 to 8 percent a year for the next 10 years.
Some legislators say interest rates on student loans are simply too high.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: Let's have much better interest rates -- 8.5 percent is far too high. And what's happening to these kids is they come out of college with these loans, with an enormous burden. I just think it's unfair to be making money off student loans. That's what's happening these days.
Pell Grants, the main federal program to help low and moderate income families pay for college, not only didn't keep up with soaring college costs last year, the average award actually decreased by $120. The most money a Pell Grant can provide is just over $4,000 a year, about a third of the cost of attending a four-year public college.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: No help from Congress. Earlier this year, Congress cut $12 billion out of the student aid programs. Democrats say they have a new plan to reinstate the tuition tax credit, increase Pell Grants, and also cut interest rates on student loans -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, somebody's going to have to do it. So the Democrats have the opportunity. But, I mean, if people haven't had a belly full of these two political parties and what they're doing to the middle class in this country, I don't know what it's going to take.
PILGRIM: It's simply outrageous, and it's the future of our country if we can't give our kids an education.
DOBBS: And these very same politicians and our business elites, our political elites will sit there and mouth these platitudes about they really want to see our youth educated and be competitive in a world economy. They're so -- I better leave that sentence unfinished. Kitty Pilgrim, thank you very much.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Bob in Ohio, "Finally someone on television has told the blatant truth of what's wrong with the idiots in Washington without putting some kind of spin on the situation or blaming the other party for the country's woes. We in middle America are sick of all the rhetoric of Congress and the bias of the news media."
Zachary in New Jersey, I'm a 23-year-old career EMT for a very poor city in south Jersey. I spend almost all of my spare time volunteering as a firefighter or training to be better at my job. I think myself and others in my work make a difference in people's lives every day. But I make almost no money. How and when did it become so difficult for hardworking Americans dedicated to their community to get started in life?"
We better come up with a lot of answers. And it's a very lucky thing this country has people like you.
Send us your thoughts to loudobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts here later. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book, "War on the Middle Class."
Coming up next, allegations of slanting intelligence leveled at Bob Gates, the nominee to succeed Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.
We'll have that report.
The chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, joins us. We'll be talking about the latest in Iraq, the outgoing secretary of defense, his replacement, and what in the world is the United States Navy doing in the Pacific?
And Democratic powerhouse Charlie Rangel, expected to become chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, he will give us his take on the Democratic agenda.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On the eve of what many hope will be a new political era in Washington, old charges are rising and flying. Political manipulation of intelligence during the Cold War. Those, the allegations being made against Bob Gates, President Bush's nominee to replace Rumsfeld as defense secretary. Jeanne Meserve reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With flawed intelligence on Iraq still a raw nerve, old questions about whether Bob Gates has skewed intelligence for political purposes may be creating new problems. SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: For me, the important thing with Mr. Gates is whether or not he is independent, whether or not he is going to speak truth to power.
MESERVE: Accusations that Gates slanted intelligence date back to the 1980s. On Mikhail Gorbachev's Soviet Union and Nicaragua's Contra rebels, some accuse Gates of distorting analysis to support the policy goals of those he worked for, including then CIA Director William Casey.
After an assassination attempt made on Pope John Paul II, for example, a CIA study said the Soviets were involved. But there was never proof.
MELVIN GOODMAN, FORMER CIA SOVIET ANALYST: It was politicization. It was corrupt intelligence. It was total spin.
MESERVE: Critics went public in 1991, when Gates was nominated to be CIA director.
JENNIFER GLAUDEMANS, FORMER CIA SOVIET ANALYST: Mr. Gates politicized intelligence analysis and is responsible for an overall degradation of the analytical process.
MESERVE: Gates rebutted, saying his honest assessments were why the first President Bush nominated him.
GATES: And I think one of the reasons he appointed me to this job was that he knows I'm going to tell him exactly what I think and exactly what CIA thinks, and not shade it.
MESERVE: Though 31 senators voted against Gates, he was confirmed.
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: He took very much to heart the perception, whether real or not, the perception that he was slanting intelligence, and, in his performance as its director, was meticulous in ensuring that he did not do so.
MESERVE: McLaughlin says he never saw Gates skew intelligence. But Melvin Goodman believes Gates is still what he calls a political wind sock, adjusting his views to the political winds.
GOODMAN: Will he tell truth to power? He never has before. Will he do it now? Well, look, I don't know. I'm inclined to think that he can't, and that he certainly won't.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Although Carl Levin, who you heard in that piece, is the ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, which will vote on Gates' nomination, the current betting is Gates will be confirmed -- Lou?
DOBBS: Well Jeanne, let's go to the facts of the matter. Gates ran the CIA. What distinguished him in that role and what do his detractors say about his conduct as CIA director and what can be factually supported?
MESERVE: Well needless to say, there are differing opinions of how he did in that job. But one thing I'd note, some of those senators who voiced opposition to him in 1991 later changed their mind about him and decided he had not been such a bad pick. Interestingly, Carl Levin was one of those who voted against him in 1991, you heard him today saying he wants some more information.
DOBBS: OK, Jeanne, thank you -- Jeanne Meserve from Washington.
President Bush today met with the Iraq Study Group, the bipartisan group seeking a forward-looking strategy and a successful strategy for Iraq.
Joining me with his insight on Iraq and other issues, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter. Congressman Hunter last month announced his intention to seek the GOP nomination for the presidency in 2008. Congressman, good to have you here.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), CHMN, ARMED SERVICES CMTE: Good to be with you, Lou. And of course we haven't made the formal announcement. That gives you the second press conference.
DOBBS: You've got it. Well, we will be taking careful note.
Mr. Chairman, let me ask you this first. The Iraq Study Group, the White House taking great pains to call it a dialogue. The American people, this administration, I'm sure you in Congress, all trying to contain our hope that the Iraq Study Group will come up with real solutions and choices that can be made for the intelligence conduct of this war in Iraq. Where are you now?
HUNTER: Well, Lou, no matter what the Iraq Study Group does, we're basically in the second phase of a three-phase plan that we've used in nations around the world for 60 years. And that is you stand up a freely elected government, you stand up then whether it's a Philippines, Japan, Central America, you then stand up a military apparatus, a security apparatus in that country that can protect their freely elected government.
And lastly, the third phase is, the Americans leave. Everything depends right now, Lou, on the standing up of the second phase, that is, the Iraqi military. And that has to -- when the Iraq Study Group comes in with their recommendation the next day, the American trainers in Iraq will walk out to their jobs and they will continue to train those Iraqi battalions. So that still has to be done.
DOBBS: Well, let me ask you this. We're now in Iraq longer than we were in World War II. Not a single general has been fired. We've lost almost 3,000 young men in Iraq, more than 20,000 wounded. We are having discussions in this country about the political will of the Iraqis who make up the Iraqi government.
And we're talking about 60 years of history and standing up other armies. The fact is, at what point do you just say, a general's got to be fired, we've got to have a new strategy. We don't have a lot of time to deal with this because our young men and women, and I know your son served in Iraq, that we can continue this?
HUNTER: Well, Lou, you've got to...
DOBBS: ... on the same course.
HUNTER: Your statement could just as easily have taken place in any of the, what I would call, the close points of the Cold War.
DOBBS: Yes, but Duncan, you know me better than that. And you know I'm not going to let you turn that, because it's not when it's occurring, it's occurring right now.
HUNTER: Well Lou, let me just be direct with you.
DOBBS: Please.
HUNTER: We were in Korea for a long time. We've got what I would call a draw out of Korea, but we maintain freedom on the southern part of the Korean peninsula. We had success in Central America, where he had military dictatorship and we went in there in the '80s.
We came out of there with fragile governments where people are elected. So none of this stuff comes wrapped in a neat package. And everything depends right now on the standup of the Iraqi military. And my recommendation to the president is to get all 114 Iraqi battalions, some of which are in very benign areas in Iraq, where there's not a lot of action taking place, rotate those guys, get them combat experience in Baghdad and other places where it's hot right now.
That gives them unit cohesiveness, gives them a chain of command. It also lets us determine whether they're going to be responsive to that Iraqi ministry of defense. So we're in phase two right now and so the idea that somehow somebody's got to be fired, I think that was some of the thinking that the country experienced with respect to Secretary Rumsfeld.
I would just offer something to you, Lou. I would consider the proposition that this is just very difficult. We've freed hundreds of millions of people by hanging in there against the Soviet Union. We're in a different part of the world now, which is very difficult. Let's give it a chance. With all the political background that overlays that, let's give it a chance and let's stand up that Iraqi military.
DOBBS: Let me be clear. I wasn't saying there's anything easy about this, as the president says often about various issues, they're hard. I understand that. But that's what we pay those generals for. And they've got our young men and women in harm's way and their obligation is to succeed, in my opinion. And I know it's yours as well.
HUNTER: I agree with that. DOBBS: And when they're not succeeding, it's the obligation of someone to get them out of the way and bring in somebody who can succeed. I think you'd agree with that as well.
Let me go to the issue. Carl Levin, your counterpart soon to be in the Democratic Congress next year says he wants to see some movement here within four months. Do you agree?
HUNTER: I don't think you can put -- in the countries where we've stood up free governments and we've put militaries in place that could protect them and then we left, to my knowledge, we've never had a timetable.
I know a timetable is an attractive thing. But as I saw Senator Levin's comments, he didn't say an exact timetable. I think he said something like between four and six. I think we can do this fairly quickly. But I think it's a mistake to set an arbitrary time to do it. I think we just have to do it.
DOBBS: Let me go on to something else and that of course is the Kitty Hawk, that group, a diesel submarine from Communist China surfacing within five miles within striking range of that carrier group while the PACCOM commander is in Beijing talking about military protocols. What's your reaction to that?
HUNTER: Chinese have 17 subs under construction right now, Lou and they've got a massive ship-building capability on the commercial side. And one thing I'm worried about is translating that commercial ship-building capability into the construction of warships.
If they did that, they'd be able to make lots of submarines and lots of surface stuff for $0.30 on the dollar, compared to the United States. So that's -- Lou, what you're seeing there is a translation of American dollars going to China and those hard dollars are being used to buy military apparatus that's being aimed back at the United States. I think that is a bad policy.
DOBBS: And let me ask you about the military situation in which a -- the carrier group has a diesel submarine successfully move undetected until it surfaces. Let me read you what the Navy said.
The Navy statement of the Kitty Hawk: "In late October, Kitty Hawk strike group was conducting routine training operations in the East China Sea" -- not a place where one would assume that things would be just routine -- "we were near the island of Okinawa and a Chinese song class submarine was sighted near the strike group by U.S. Navy aircraft."
I mean, it makes us look like abject fools.
HUNTER: Here's the dynamics of that, Lou. Diesel boats at speed, when they're going fast, are very noisy. We can hear them a long ways off. And in submarines life and death is hearing the other guy before he hears you. If they go quiet -- this is, if they're not moving a lot -- and without getting into classified information, they can be very silent. So if they're in -- if they are -- and this is a problem we've got with the Iranians in the Straits of Hormuz...
DOBBS: That was my next question.
HUNTER: ... that's a problem we would have in other places. And that is, if you have a lot of diesel boats and they just hang there, they're very stealthy at that point if they don't have to move. And they can be a problem to an American fleet that gets in the littorals and gets in close.
DOBBS: I understand you're being called for a vote.
And Congressman Duncan Hunter, we thank you for being here.
HUNTER: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.
Just ahead, he's one of the Democrats' most powerful lawmakers, expected to become Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. I'll be joined by Congressman Charlie Rangel here next.
And the race for the White House, it has begun. Rudy Giuliani, taking steps toward a run. We'll take a look at who's in, who's out, who's ready to get in.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Mel Martinez has agreed to take over the leadership of the Republican National Committee. According to GOP sources, Martinez would replace the party's chairman, Ken Mehlman, who is expected to step down.
Martinez, who served as Housing Secretary in President Bush's first term, was elected to the Senate in 2004. He will retain his Senate seat while also serving as the party's principal spokesman.
And the race is on. Rudy Giuliani has taken the first steps toward running for the White House. And he certainly is not alone.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Do conservatives have a strong contender for 2008? Auditions are open. Newt Gingrich has been out of the game long enough that he gets to say, I told you so.
Mitt Romney's lieutenant governor lost the race to succeed him as governor. But not doing well in Massachusetts could be a plus to Republicans.
This year, we saw a big market for outsiders who can promise change. That's good news for Rudy Giuliani and for any Republican who can speak the language of bipartisanship. Here is one.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Are we doing the things, organizationally and legally, that need to be done to prepare for it? Yes.
SCHNEIDER: His strong national security credentials are no small thing, after a midterm where Iraq was a big issue.
On the Democratic side, several potential contenders can claim foreign policy expertise, Wesley Clark, Bill Richardson, Joe Biden.
And John Kerry? The 2006 campaign was not so good for him. Economic populism had a lot of resonance this year. That's John Edward's message. But two Democratic senators were the clearest winners. Hillary Clinton coasted to reelection in New York.
Next question:
QUESTION: When will you address the question of whether you will be running?
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: You know, I am going to relish this victory.
SCHNEIDER: Barack Obama is the Democrats' new star -- less political baggage than Senator Clinton, outsider image.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS: Nothing would happen -- nothing that happened tonight would discourage me from -- from making that race.
SCHNEIDER: His limited experience a problem? Not if the market for change stays strong.
(on camera): Politics is all about the moment. The Democrats clearly had the moment in 2006, but that doesn't mean it'll be there in 2008. In 1994, Republicans had the moment, President Clinton was toast. But two years later, Clinton easily won re-election. The moment had changed.
Bill Schneider, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: As moments are wont to do.
A reminder to vote in our poll. Do you support towns such as Farmers Branch, Texas, that want to make English their official language of the community, fine companies that hire illegal aliens and ban landlords from leasing to illegal aliens?
Yes or no. Please cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here in just a few minutes.
Next, one of the most powerful Democrats in this new Congress will join us, Congressman Charlie Rangel, set to become chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. Also, you might be interested to know, he only garnered 94 percent of the vote in his Congressional district. Charlie Rangel joins us here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest could soon be the top Democrat in the House on the issue of trade, taxes. Congressman Charlie Rangel is in line to be the chairman of the powerful House Ways and Means Committee.
Congressman, Mr. Chairman-to-be, let me say thanks and good to have you here.
REP. CHARLIE RANGEL, (D) NEW YORK: Good to be with you, Lou, always.
DOBBS: There's a lot of talk, suddenly, about economic populism in this country. A number of Democrats running on what is being styled as economic populism. I guess that means that people are going to start being in the focus of political objectives instead of companies or countries or elites. How do you feel about that?
RANGEL: I don't know what you mean by that. You know, you can call the chairman, the powerful Ways and Means chairman, but the only way for us to get anything done is to be working together and that is not only within the House and the Senate.
DOBBS: Right.
RANGEL: But the president of the United States is going to play an important role. If he really doesn't want to be a lame duck and if Democrats really want to prove that we deserve the right to lead, we have to work together.
DOBBS: Well, working together with the White House, I think most people I talk in point of fact are kind of excited about having checks and balances, co-equal branches of government. So I think that's one outcome here that a lot of people are excited about, whether Republican or Democrat.
They're waiting obviously for you guys to prove yourselves and the White House as well. In terms of trade, the president's going to come up a fast track authority renewal next July. The Democrats will be in charge. Do you think the Democrats are disposed to give it to him?
RANGEL: Not unless we are able to at least participate in what's in the agreement. You know, the constitution reserves this right to the Congress, but it's unrealistic to believe that all the members of Congress should be able to negotiate a trade agreement.
But at the end, we have the right to vote up or down. There are many trade agreements we would like to vote for if we were able to participate and to make certain it's fair. It's silly for us to be voting sending jobs overseas. DOBBS: But that's exactly what you've done for 30 years.
RANGEL: Those who voted, yes. And those of us who tried to protect the language in, to protect the jobs that are here, we can change that. And there's nothing to say we have to vote for every trade agreement. So whether or not the president gets authority, he has to convince us in the Congress that before he signs off on these agreements, we will have some type of input.
DOBBS: Nancy Pelosi says now she wants John Murtha to be the leader instead of Steny Hoyer and a lot of people are saying she should never have entered that. What's your reaction?
RANGEL: I don't know. She hasn't discussed it with me. I think Steny Hoyer has done a good job. Unless there's reasons why he should be denied the opportunity, I think he deserves support.
I really think Jack Murtha is a national leader. He's done a heck of a lot for the party, broke the ice and allowed people to talk about not supporting the war without being considered unpatriotic because he is a man of 35 years. So they're both outstanding candidates but Murtha is a late-comer to the race.
DOBBS: Congressman Rangel, earlier today Senator Reid talked about a plan to change the course of the war in Iraq. He said...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D), NEVADA: We would have to start a redeployment in the next few months. So the exact time doesn't matter. But we're going to have to do it. It's important that we get the Iraq change -- the course of the war in Iraq changed as soon as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: What's your reaction?
RANGEL: I feel uncomfortable in telling the president what to do and when to get the troops out. I just hope the president can go beyond just dismissing Rumsfeld and to say that he's not staying the course, that he's going to work with the Congress, we're going to protect our troops and we're going to try to get back some of our international friends to bring some type of sanity to this particular area.
And that should include some of our so-called friends in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. This is not just an Israeli/U.S. situation. It's international. And we should find leaders in the region. As far as removing Rumsfeld, I'd like to know whether there's a change in policy rather than just a change in personality.
DOBBS: Congressman Charlie Rangel, good to have you with us.
RANGEL: Good to be back, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up shortly here on CNN, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Lou. The voters have spoken. Now what will the government do about Iraq? Tonight, a new push to try to get troops out starting in only four months. And one suggestion that Iran, yes, Iran should help.
Also, he's a Democrat turned Independent and balance of power in the Senate could hang on him. We'll take a closer look at Joe Lieberman's pivotal role in the new Congress.
Plus, new developments in the 2008 bid for the White House. We're going to show you which possible contender has just taken a major step toward running for president. All that, Lou, coming up at the top of the hour in "THE SITUATION ROOM." Lou?
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf. And an additional programming note, tune in tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, an "ANDERSON COOPER 360" special, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, a special report on what happens to our veterans when they return home. The stories of our servicemen and women, the issues they're facing as they return and re-adjust to life in America. Tonight, 10 p.m. Eastern on "ANDERSON COOPER 360."
Up next here, more of your thoughts and the results of our poll tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Ground breaking in Washington, D.C. today for a memorial honoring slain civil rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr. President Bush presiding over the ceremonies on the National Mall. Former President Clinton, who authorized the monument and other dignitaries on hand for the ground-breaking. The monument the first to honor an African-American leader on the Mall should be completed by 2008.
The results of our poll tonight: an overwhelming 94 percent of you support towns such as Farmers Branch, Texas, that want to make English the official language, fine businesses that hire illegal aliens and ban landlords from renting to illegal aliens.
Time now for more of your thoughts.
C.H. in Farmers Branch, Texas: "We're trying to do the right thing here in Farmers Branch by trying to stop the illegal flow of aliens into our city and we continue to get a hard time from groups like LULAC. Please give us some help, buddy. Send up some of your positive force."
Well, here it comes.
And Bob in Virginia: "Now that George Allen has conceded and the Democrats have regained control of the House and Senate, we're beginning to hear them talk like they have a mandate. Well they do, but it isn't a return to liberal activism. Rather it is a rejection of right wing extremist agendas that have characterized so much of the Republican Party. If the Democrats trot out their usual agenda, they'll be gone in the next election." And Bill in Florida: "The executive, legislative and judicial branches of the U.S. government have done more economic damage to the USA than al Qaeda ever dreamed of doing.
Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my new book "War on the Middle Class." We thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Among our guests will be Janet Murguia, the head of the National Council of La Raza and Senator-elect Sherrod Brown of Ohio. For all of us, thanks for watching. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" begins now with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf?
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