Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Police in Stand-Off With Florida Man

Aired November 13, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Massive police build-up tonight just south of Miami, Homestead, Florida. Police from Homestead PD, Miami-Dade PD, Florida City PD, local SWAT, even the Department of Homeland Security has sent in two Blackhawk helicopters as an armed stand-off goes on as we speak, the perp armed with an AK-47. We are live. Police trying everything from negotiations to smoke bombs to end this potentially explosive and hostile stand-off. Police lives on the line.
And tonight, a Vermont judge goes light, sentencing a repeat aggravated child molester to just 60 days in the local jail. This guy preyed on a child victim, a girl just 6 years old. Then the judge bragged about it and gets an award! If that`s not bass-ackwards, I don`t know what is! Judge Edward Cashman, you are in contempt!

First, live to Florida. We are tracking breaking news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that time, we heard, you know, between four and six shots whiz over our heads, and we just immediately took cover behind a car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Just minutes away from Miami, a potentially explosive stand-off situation going down right now. It`s been in effect for hours.

Out to David Ovalle, crime reporter for "The Miami Herald." What`s the latest on the stand-off?

DAVID OVALLE, "MIAMI HERALD": Hi, Nancy. How are you? Well, as of right now, it looks like it`s coming to a conclusion. A source of mine is telling me that the suspect has killed himself, which -- you know, which is, you know, a tragic end, you know, to a violent situation, and you know, I guess they`ll have to clean up and see what happened.

GRACE: We are waiting to confirm whether the stand-off has ended. To Jean Casarez. What happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, this is a stand-off that started at 11:00 o`clock today, but originally, it all began Saturday night. What happened was that a woman in Florida city, Florida, called 911 for help. When the officers arrived on the scene, two suspects fled from the home, got in a vehicle, immediately started to drive off, but also started shooting at officers. It is believed that those in the car were Eusebio Estrada and Samuel Mendoza. It is believed that Samuel Mendoza was the one that was shooting, that he had an AK-7 (SIC).

Now let`s take it to today. This morning, Samuel Mendoza was actually arrested, but then police got a tip to go to a home. It was believed Eusebio Estrada was in that home. That stand-off has been happening from 11:00 o`clock onward, and "The Miami Herald" is reporting and has been reporting 20 rounds of ammunition were shot out of that home.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop and former fed with the FBI terrorism task force. Mike, I understand the perp inside the home has been armed with an AK-47. Explain.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: AK-47, Nancy -- it`s a -- could be an AK-47-type weapon. There`s SKS`s (ph), all different variations. But again, extremely dangerous weapon. This is kind of what it looks like, any kind of a weapon that has, like, a banana clip that you see here, a lot of people call it an AK-47.

GRACE: How many rounds do you have with one of those?

BROOKS: You can put up to around 30 rounds in a magazine like that in a semi-automatic fired. Unless it has a fully automated capability, just as fast as you squeeze the trigger, that`s how fast the rounds come out.

GRACE: How many shots did he take at police today?

BROOKS: You can put -- probably up to around 30 -- 30 rounds in a magazine like that, and it`s semi-automatic-fired. Unless it has a fully automatic capability, it just -- as fast as you squeeze the trigger, that`s how fast the rounds come out.

GRACE: How many shots did he take at police today?

BROOKS: Looks like there was about 20 shots at police today. You know, the other night, during the chase, apparently, Mendoza was actually hanging out of the car during the police chase, firing at police with this AK-47-type weapon. These two people armed and considered extremely dangerous. You know, as this went on all day, they used some smoke grenades as a diversion to try to move around the house and do some things.

The house and the grounds around this house were just strewn with junk, and that makes it extremely difficult for SWAT Officers. I can tell you, having done raids on houses like this when I was on SWAT, it makes this difficult for a SWAT officer to operate in an environment like that.

GRACE: In fact, the Department of Homeland Security has even called in Blackhawk helicopters. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homestead police officers crouch behind their cars in the middle of a street. They are dodging gunfire emanating from this gray house with blue trim. There is a shooter holed up inside.

Homestead police officers crouch behind their cars in the middle of a street. They are dodging gunfire emanating from this gray house with blue trim. There is a shooter holed up inside. It`s a drama that began Saturday night, when police attempted to arrest this guy, Eusebio Estrada, and his pal, Samuel Mendoza. Police say Mendoza emptied an AK-47 in their direction and the two got away. Well, today police found the pair in Homestead, collared Mendoza, but the second suspect ran into this house, taking potshots at police cowering out front.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This stand-off`s still going on. We`re waiting to confirm whether or not the perpetrator inside has actually shot himself. We`re still waiting to confirm that.

Straight back out to Mike Brooks. Mike, the original call that went down on Saturday, what is so important that somebody would take on this many police departments?

BROOKS: Well, it`s believed, Nancy, that these two also may be involved with a drug gang of some kind, and that`s what -- that`s probably what they thought the police were coming after them for, you know? And they both have extensive backgrounds. In fact, Mendoza`s brother, Salvador Mendoza, was convicted in 2004 of shooting a Homestead officer.

GRACE: Look at this, Mike! Look at this. Here`s a guy holding his hands out. They`re cuffing him through a screen door and pulling him out. What`s that about?

BROOKS: That was earlier today, Nancy. There was a woman who was also inside the house they thought might have been a hostage. She came out earlier. This happened probably somewhere around 6:00 o`clock this evening. And they brought him out of the house. They don`t know what involvement this particular subject has in this case or whether he was a hostage or not. That is yet to be determined.

GRACE: You`re taking a look at what is a potentially explosive situation, multiple rounds fired from an AK-47 inside this home, and it is simple, Trial 101, obstruction of police officers. It could be anything from running from an arrest to spitting on an officer, much less taking a shot at an officer.

Let`s go out to the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Anne Bremner out of the Seattle jurisdiction, Lisa Wayne out of San Francisco. Lisa Wayne, the first obstruction case I had was when a woman spit on a cop, and believe you me, Lisa, she did jail time. Explain obstruction.

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, whenever you interfere with a police officer`s official duties, Nancy, if you interfere with that, you`re going to get in trouble. And the more you do, obviously, the more it escalates in terms of seriousness and consequences. When you`re taking shots at police officers, there`s no justification for that. There may be other reasons that were going on with these guys, but there`s never a justification. And obviously, if you shoot at police officers, you`re looking at attempted murder.

GRACE: Anne Bremner, multiple rounds out of an automatic weapon. An AK-47 is what we`re talking about right here. You know, cops are in the position of having to buy their own uniforms, their own bulletproof vests, the works. If one cop`s not wearing a vest, it`s over for him.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: That`s right. And Nancy, I`ve had the honor and pleasure of representing police officers for 18 years, including the Seattle police, and I`ve seen officers killed in SWAT raids even when they`re wearing a vest, being shot through an armpit. There`s bullets that go through a vest. And this wasn`t, luckily, suicide by cop, which a lot of these cases are when someone comes out shooting at police officers. It was suicide by the perp himself.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I live in the house right behind the gunman, she said. The police came pounding on the door, told me to take my children and run.

An army of police from multiple agencies descended on the Homestead scene. Overhead, two snipers at the ready in the open door to a Homeland Security helicopter. Lots of eyes, lots of guns trained on the house with the trigger-happy fugitive inside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The situation has been so explosive that schools have been in lockdown in this Homestead area, about 30 minutes from Miami. Let`s go out to Ben Morgan, who lives near the stand-off. His son attends Homestead middle school. Welcome, Mr. Morgan. Thank you for being with us. What did you see and hear?

BEN MORGAN, LIVES NEAR STAND-OFF AREA: Well, I was working in my yard and I saw the helicopters hovering overhead the area of where my son`s school was. I was concerned, so I went over to the area. I was talking to a police officer, who told me what was going on. Two photographers from "The Miami herald" came over and talked to me. And about that time, we heard between four and six rounds whiz right over our heads, so we immediately took cover behind my car.

GRACE: Did you ever think you`d see the day in the neighborhood where you live with your family, you having to take cover?

MORGAN: No, I didn`t think that was going to happen, so it was upsetting and I was scared.

GRACE: Was the school in lockdown, the middle school?

MORGAN: Yes, it was. The police did an excellent job of securing the area around the house where the gunman was, and they also had a very heavy presence around the school. When I talked to my son after I finally got him out of school, he said that they had made sure that all the kids were safe inside the classrooms and wouldn`t allow them to leave the classrooms. It`s what they call a red lockdown.

GRACE: And what was your son`s response to a red lockdown because of these nuts?

MORGAN: Well, he said that most of the kids were pretty calm. The principal had announced that something was going on outside, and so they ended up watching it on the news, on the TVs.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, former fed. Where does someone get their hands on an AK-47, basically a machine gun?

BROOKS: Well, basically, Nancy, you can buy these kind of weapons at a gun store. You go in any gun store nowadays, you`re going to see these kind of semi-automatic rifles that are being sold over the counter every single day, Nancy. It`s unfortunate, but they fall into the hands of the wrong people.

GRACE: And a question regarding police negotiations. When somebody is firing a hail of bullets from a machine gun, how do you even start negotiations?

BROOKS: Well, you have to, Nancy. What they did this morning, they went in, the contained the house, the got a lot of officers around the house, contained, and then they attempted to negotiate. It looked like they were having early on a problem negotiating with him. And they went in, used some smoke as a diversion and set up some speakers to try to talk to him that way. But you know when there`s rounds being fired, negotiations usually aren`t going too well. And you know, with a subject like this -- it was also believed -- his family told -- was telling us earlier today that they believed that he was psychotic and had not taken his medicine for seven months.

GRACE: Oh, please! Please! Don`t! Don`t start with me! You`re firing a machine gun on cops. And to you, Caryn Stark, psychologist. You didn`t take your medication? That`s going to be the defense?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, sometimes, Nancy, I must admit that when you don`t take your psychotic medication, you wind up being full-blown psychotic. So there is a chance that he was actually responding to not taking his medication...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What is it? What is psychotic medication?

STARK: It`s medication that tends to stop the delusions, the hallucinations, the kinds of violence that often erupts when someone is psychotic. That can happen. And the medication calms them and makes them deal with society in a more normal fashion. If you stop the medication and someone`s prone to violence, that`s what happens.

GRACE: Well, you know what? It`s very interesting to me. They`re saying that a possible defense of this guy is he was off his psychotic medication, so is shooting a machine gun at cops. But guess what, people? This seemingly runs in the family, and in 2004, another one of these party to the crime perpetrators shot Officer Edgard Rivera. He was shot by this suspect`s brother. The cop was blinded forever, for life. He addressed his attacker in court and said, You have made my life a living hell. And now Mendoza`s brother is involved in this attack on police, Mike Brooks.

BROOKS: Nancy, what I was pointing out is when you`re dealing with someone like this who is off their psychotic medication, even makes them even more unpredictable. I was a negotiator for almost 22 years and also a tactical operator and have been involved in situations with psychotic individuals such as this. They`re extremely unpredictable. And with a history of violence like these two have, it was just a deadly mix.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Latosha in Illinois. Hi, Latosha.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if there was, like, any children in the house or anything.

GRACE: I don`t think there`s children in the home. I want to go back out to you, Mike Brooks. But at the very beginning, when the woman called 911 on Saturday that touched off this whole incident, were there children in that home? Do we know what that call was about?

BROOKS: We`re not quite sure exactly what that call was about, Nancy. When they arrived on the scene, they got into -- they investigated, got into the chase with these two perps, and everything just went from there. But I`m not sure if there were any kids in the house on Saturday night. We know there weren`t any kids in this house today during this barricade situation.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homestead police officers crouch behind their cars in the middle of a street. They are dodging gunfire emanating from this gray house with blue trim. There is a shooter holed up inside.

Homestead police officers crouch behind their cars in the middle of the street. They are dodging gunfire emanating from this gray house with blue trim. There is a shooter holed up inside. It`s a drama that began Saturday night when police attempted to arrest this guy, Eusebio Estrada, and his pal, Samuel Mendoza. Police say Mendoza emptied an AK-47 in their direction and the two got away. Well, today police found the pair in Homestead, collared Mendoza, but the second suspect ran into this house taking pot shots at police cowering out front.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And one of the police techniques trying to end this stand-off is by smoking the perpetrators out of the home. How did that work, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: They tried to shoot in, apparently, some kind of liquid CS or some pepper spray into that house earlier today. They introduced the gas because when they went up to get the one guy we saw who was being handcuffed, they all had the gas masks on. But apparently, it didn`t take effect, or you know, maybe the people inside had gas masks. It`s unknown right now, Nancy.

GRACE: Back on you to the lawyers, Anne Bremner and Lisa Wayne. Lisa, if this guy does live, what kind of charges is he looking at?

WAYNE: Well, he`s looking at I don`t know how many charges of attempted first-degree murder against a police officer. He`s looking at assault, eluding. I mean, you can keep stacking these where, basically, he`s looking at a life sentence.

GRACE: Anne, what`s the defense?

BREMNER: Well, in a defense like this, it`s got to be that he`s psychotic because he`s not only looking at those crimes with potentially kidnapping, and if he kills an officer, of course, there`s death penalty in Florida, and it`ll be carried out. So he`s got to have some kind of psychotic defense. Look what just happened in Texas with the gal that killed her children and just got out because she was psychotic, but now she`s cured. Those cases are out there. They`re controversial, but...

GRACE: They certainly are. We`ll all be right back.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." In Florida, two Broward County deputies shot, one fatally, today during a routine traffic stop, Deputy Brian Tephford gunned down in a hail of bullets over the weekend after pulling over an alleged stolen vehicle. The suspects then opened fire on another deputy who showed up to help his partner. Three people arrested and charged, including the alleged shooter. Tephford, a six-year police veteran, leaves behind a 4-year-old daughter and two little twins.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I was out in my yard doing some work, and I observed that there were several helicopters flying around not too far away. And in particular, I observed that a U.S. Customs Blackhawk was flying in the area. And it was right in the vicinity of my son`s middle school, so I went over there to see what was happening. And at that point, I came across a Florida City police sergeant, and I asked her and she said, Well, there was a situation where an individual who had shot at two Florida City police officers Saturday night was barricaded in the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Massive police build-up just south of Miami, Florida, Homestead, Florida. Police from Homestead PD, Miami-Dade PD, Florida City PD, local SWAT, even the Department of Homeland has sent in -- Homeland Security -- has sent in two Blackhawk helicopters.

Jean, what can you tell us about the people, the perpetrators here? And is anybody else in that home?

CASAREZ: Well, first of all, 21-year-old Samuel Mendoza has been arrested. He was arrested shortly after he drove away, allegedly shooting at police. We do know he has a bit of a criminal history. He was convicted in 2004 of criminal mischief. Normally, that`s a misdemeanor in Florida, but he has two prior convictions, so they were felony convictions for the criminal mischief. We`re still researching what those priors were.

GRACE: Now, is his brother the one that shot a cop and blinded him?

CASAREZ: Exactly.

GRACE: Right.

CASAREZ: Yes. And then Eusebio Estrada, who has been in the home -- he has no criminal history that we can find.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, any reason to believe anybody else could have been in that home?

BROOKS: It`s hard to tell, Nancy. That`s -- you know, that`s why when the woman comes out, you saw police grab her, because then you got to treat (ph) everyone who`s inside that house. You go ahead and cuff them, take them in, and talk to them and try to get as much intelligence as you can on what`s going on inside that house. When they got that second guy out, that`s when they said that they believed the guy who was still inside, Estrada, was armed with an AK-47.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE EDWARD CASHMAN, VT DISTRICT COURT: It accomplishes nothing of value. It doesn`t make anything better. It costs us a lot of money. We create a lot of expectation. The one message I want to get through is that anger doesn`t solve it, it just corrodes your own soul. It`s clear that punishment is not enough. And to encourage in victims of crime retribution as the only response, one, we`re not following legislative directives, two, we`re wasting state money, and three, we`re not solving problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Incredible! A Vermont judge goes light, sentencing a repeat aggravated child molester to just 60 days in the local jail. The victim 6 years old, a 6-year-old little girl. How would you feel if that was your daughter? After repeat sex attacks on a 6-year-old girl, the judge gives him 60 days behind bars. Then the judge brags about it and even gets an award from the Vermont Press Association?

Well, I`ve got two words for you, Judge Edward Cashman. You are in contempt! You know, it`s incredible t. Me, out to Howie Carr with WRKO, talk show host. I`m stunned. This guy is now trying to take credit in a change in the sentencing rules. It was only because he got caught with a light sentence that the rules were changed!

HOWIE CARR, WRKO TALK SHOW HOST: Right, Nancy. He`s always been a real sort of an unpredictable guy in the Vermont judiciary. When this case was first breaking, we had -- we were on a Vermont station, so we do a lot of -- we take a lot of calls from Vermont. And one guy said that a few years back, he was handling a lot of drunk driving cases and he had this habit of just asking the defendant, after he pleaded guilty, What kind of beer were you drinking that night? So I -- you know, he`s just -- this is the way he`s always operated.

GRACE: Like I care?

CARR: He`s -- he`s...

GRACE: Like I care what kind of beer somebody is drinking DUI?

CARR: Right. Well, that`s...

GRACE: Are you kidding?

CARR: That`s the whole point, you know? And he`s just -- he`s a guy who -- he married a -- the daughter of a -- of a Vermont supreme court justice, and so he`s always -- and he`s been a prosecutor, so he`s always, you know, been a guy who`s been sort of taken care of. And I think he`s become a legend in his own mind, as you`ve seen by his comments...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... it`s my understanding the only judge in Vermont history -- correct me if I`m wrong because I`m not a Vermont native -- to give a cash bond, a bond to a guy charged with murder one?

CARR: Right. Yes.

GRACE: Did you know about that?

CARR: Yes, I did. I was looking at that. I mean, there`s been so many cases. He was barred from hearing divorce cases for a while. He was thought to be too sympathetic to the men that were coming before him. Again, he`s just had a very...

GRACE: I can`t believe I`m paying...

CARR: ... spotty record.

GRACE: ... this guy`s salary. I`m paying for his cushy lifestyle!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Cashman sentenced Mark Hulett to a minimum of 60 days in jail. The convicted child molester admitted to abusing a little girl for years. The judge of 24 years faced a firing squad of critics who called for his immediate resignation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cashman should be in jail right behind him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I agree, but guess what? He is still on the bench. Come March, Judge Edward Cashman is set to retire with a big, fat state pension that you and I are funding.

This is after sentencing a repeat child molester to 60 days behind bars, giving the first cash bond to a guy ever in Vermont history charged with murder one. And get a load of this: The guy gets out on bond; then, he complains because he has to be supervised at home. He doesn`t want any home supervision.

This judge was taken off hearing divorce cases because he was so sympathetic to the men in divorce cases. But let`s talk about sentencing a convicted child offender, a molester, to 60 days -- days -- behind bars.

Marc Klaas, got an opinion?

MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER OF BEYOND MISSING: Well, of course I have an opinion. Within the next three years, Vermont as well all the other states will have to come in compliance with Jessica`s Law, which is a portion of the Children`s Safety Act that President Bush recently signed. At that point, the penalty for that very crime will be 25 years to life. There won`t be any plea-bargaining allowed.

Secondly, what the judge doesn`t seem to understand is that this definition of pedophile, and I say that because...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, Marc.

KLAAS: Yes?

GRACE: Take a look at this guy. Do you have a monitor? Can you see him?

KLAAS: Yes, I do. No, he`s a frightening...

GRACE: Look at this guy.

KLAAS: Well, he`s frightening.

GRACE: Repeat aggravated sex offense on a 6-year-old girl. There he is in all his glory. You were saying?

KLAAS: Well, Nancy, you know, he`s also defined himself as a pedophile, as he committed this crime against this child over a long period of time. And what we do know, for a fact, is that you cannot cure pedophiles. You cannot cure psychopaths. It has never happened in the history of the world.

State hospitals have been working on cures and treatments for these afflictions for years and years without much success. The best one can hope for is that some combination of chemical and psychological therapy will work for some period of time.

GRACE: OK, you know what? Our justice system, when it comes to sentencing, is based on three prongs: deterrent, to stop the perpetrator from committing the crime again; rehabilitation, if that is possible; and punishment. And punishment. We keep talking about the crime, but we`re being a little P.C. tonight. What is the crime specifically, Jean Casarez?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, what he did was that he admitted that he admitted he sexually assaulted a little girl for four years, when she was 6 years old until she was 10 years old. And what he said happened was oral sex and unlawful touching.

And, Nancy, this isn`t some man that found this little girl. This was a family friend. This is someone that lived in the home on and off. And the family would see him hold hands with the little girl and even lie together in a bed together, but they never dreamed what actually was happening.

GRACE: Take a listen to what the victim`s mother had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t believe it. He should pay for what he did to my baby. It`s not fair. She`s not even at home with me, and he can be home (INAUDIBLE) what he did in my house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s absolutely amazing, based on what`s going on in the United States with sex offenders and registry, non-registry and so forth, that somebody could get a 60-day sentence and get off that easily. It just seems impossible to me that a 60-day sentence is logical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mark Hulett originally got just 60 days behind bars for repeatedly molesting a 6-year-old girl. It went on from age 6 to age 10. Out you to Howie Carr, WRKO talk show host. When you hear a child`s mother crying like that, what do we have to do to light a fire under the Vermont assembly to get some action?

HOWIE CARR, WRKO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, you know, they had hearings and all that kind of stuff, and they actually did change the law of the state corrections department.

GRACE: But I understand the judge is taking credit for that.

CARR: Well, yes, he is, but, I mean, that`s what a judge does. I mean, you know what it`s like, Nancy. I mean, sometimes these judges make terrible decisions, and there`s a public outcry, and somehow they confuse their own bad judgment with courage. And I think that`s what this guy has done; he`s decided that he`s a courageous guy for doing this...

GRACE: Good lord in heaven.

CARR: ... and somehow he`s changed the rehabilitation system.

GRACE: I`m just sick. I`m just sick, Howie. What crime victims have to put up with -- and to Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us tonight -- you know, even adult women that are victims of sex attacks have a very difficult time making a comeback, much less a 6-year-old little girl.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s right, Nancy. This is a little girl who will be permanently scarred. And I want to reiterate what Marc said earlier. You really cannot cure someone who is a sex offender, someone who is a pedophile.

GRACE: But what can we do about Judge Cashman? Do you think we can cure him?

STARK: I wish that we could, Nancy. This absolutely makes no sense, no sense. He says that he wanted treatment for him, when you can`t be treated.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Amber in Georgia, hi, Amber.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is: Is there any way that the defendant and the judge had a prior acquaintance? I mean, is there anything in there that could be compromisable, even if they had met once?

GRACE: What about it, Howie Carr? Because if the defendant knows the judge in any way, the judge should really be recused. Is there any discussion about...

CARR: I heard nothing about that during this trial. I don`t think they knew each other at all. I think -- you`ve got to remember, too, Nancy, that this was a strange living arrangement that the parents had. I won`t go so far as to call it a hippy commune, but it was very unconventional, shall we say.

GRACE: Well, you know what? The sins of the father or the mother are not to be passed down to the little 6-year-old girl. She`s not the one that has to pay for the way her parents used to bring her up.

I`m just sick, number one -- let`s go out to the lawyers, to Lisa Wayne and Anne Bremner -- that this judge is still on the bench. Not only that, he has gotten an award, people, from the Vermont -- let`s see, from the Vermont Press Association for protecting the First Amendment. I guess victims don`t get any protection, Anne Bremner.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, victims have rights, and they have legislation.

GRACE: Oh, really? What right would that be, other than to give a victim impact statement?

BREMNER: Well, the thing is, in this case what happened is he`s saying he had limited facts. And what he did was he said one of the purposes of punishment is retribution, but that`s not the only reason that you punish or that you sentence. Part of it is treatment.

There`s a real difference of opinion in terms of these people being treatable. And, in fact, we have sentencing alternatives for pedophiles all over the United States for a reason that there`s a belief that they can be treated. So he says, "I want rehab in this sentence," and he says, "By virtue of what I did, I got the public outcry, and they changed the Department of Corrections, and now he`s serving 3 to 10 years with treatment."

GRACE: So he`s trying to take credit...

BREMNER: He is.

GRACE: ... for a law being changed because of his inadequacy and his indifference to a child on the bench. Let`s go out to the lines. Stephanie in Texas, hi, Steph.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: First off, thanks for everything you do. As a police officer and a victim, I really, really find what you do admirable. My question to you is: Why are we not seeing more of a public outcry? It does not matter. There are a couple of people holding signs that are, you know, having a problem with this. Until the public steps up and says, "We will not take this. This is not acceptable. They don`t deserve to have a voice," it`s going to continue to happen.

GRACE: Howie, she is correct. And I see a protest in front of the courthouse. Did the public assume that the matter would be taken care of? We`re still paying Cashman.

CARR: Oh, there was a terrible outcry. You know, you talk about the Vermont Press Association, the largest newspaper in the state, the "Burlington Free Press," a liberal paper, demanded his resignation. Governor Douglas, the Republican governor, he demanded his resignation.

GRACE: Well, that didn`t go very far.

CARR: The legislature held hearings. I mean, it was the only thing anyone talked about in Vermont for weeks.

GRACE: Well, he`s still sitting on the bench. The governor called for his resignation, and he`s still sitting there.

CARR: Nancy, you know this better than anybody. It`s almost impossible to remove a judge, even for just cause. And Vermont is one of these states, unlike a lot of the southern states, where the judges don`t run for re-election. So once they`re on, they`re there forever.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE EDWARD CASHMAN, VERMONT: It`s clear that punishment is not enough. And to encourage victims of crime retribution as the only response, one, we`re not following the legislative directives; two, we`re wasting state money; and, three, we`re not solving problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 60-day sentence for a man convicted of raping a young girl over a three- or four-year period, beginning when the girl was just 7 years old, is outrageous and incomprehensible.

CASHMAN: All of the literature I`ve read said, if you`re interested in changing behavior, you don`t have to do it inside. If anything, you have a better success with an outside program.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What is he talking about? That is Vermont Judge Edward Cashman how just handed down a 60-day sentence -- repeat, 60-day sentence - - on a repeat aggravated child molester. Well, there was a huge outcry, and the law was actually changed. Now the judge is trying to take credit for that. He just got an award from the Vermont Free Press Association, and he`s about to retire with a big, fat pension that you and I are helping to subsidize. Judge Edward Cashman, you are in contempt!

Out to Dayvid Figler. He`s a former judge in the city of Las Vegas. Judge, Cashman goes on and on about how he wants rehab for this child molester. Why couldn`t rehab be ordered after an appropriate jail sentence?

DAYVID FIGLER, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, that`s the problem here, is that the judge perceived that the law didn`t allow him to do that. So instead of going through what we would think would be acceptable channels of changing that law, he decided to take the riskiest gambit of all and play a game of chicken, essentially, with the Department of Corrections, with the legislature, and impose this 60-day sentence.

GRACE: And, Judge Figler, with a 6-year-old little girl. We left her out of the equation.

You know, with us, Dayvid Figler, a former judge in the city of Las Vegas. Judge, when I would hear stories about prosecutors who had misbehaved, it personally offends me as a former felony prosecutor. When you hear a story like Cashman`s, how does that make you feel?

FIGLER: Well, it`s in context. Here`s a judge who`s frustrated with the system, so he decides, despite the people who are impacted by it, that he`s going to make a test case. He`s going to make a test case by giving this guy this light sentence.

However, had this guy done something else while in this short period of time, had he re-offended, had he molested someone else, well, then, Judge Cashman would have been a test case for probably the quickest recall in the history of Vermont.

GRACE: Well, the unusual part, Mike Brooks, is even though the governor of Vermont called for him to get off the bench, he`s still sitting there. He`s sitting there working 9:00 to 5:00, bankers` hour, while we are paying our salary so he can go light on child molesters. What message is that to police that bust their back to make a case?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: I`ll tell you, Nancy, when cases like this -- you know, the law enforcement -- obviously, I`m a former law enforcement officer 26 years -- you know, we just look at it as kind of the revolving door of the criminal justice system.

But I can guarantee you: The cops, they`re out there to lock the people up. Then they turn them over to the justice system. When you`ve got idiots like this who are sitting on bench -- you know, and if I screwed up when I was a cop, my pension would be taken away. This guy`s screwing up, and he`s still going to get his. That`s unbelievable to me.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Martha in California, hi, Martha.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I wanted, first of all, to say that I just love your show. And my question is for Judge Cashman. Would he like to have his daughter or grandchild be with this predator, as being a child molester? I mean, I was a victim of a child molester for many years in my childhood, and it just devastates me that this judge could do this.

GRACE: You know, Martha, part of the problem with rape victims, adult rape victims, is they feel somehow responsible. But with child sex attack victims, that feeling of helplessness follows them the rest of their lives. Are you still with me, Martha?

CALLER: Yes, I am. Yes, I am.

GRACE: That feeling of helplessness -- they can`t ever seem to get over the fact, as a 6-year-old girl, for four years, they were forced to endure a sex attack by this one guy. Nobody did anything.

CALLER: I just -- I would love to see the judge put his child or grandchild with this man.

GRACE: To Howie Carr, with WRKO -- he`s also a "Boston Herald" columnist, also wrote "The Brothers Bulgur," Howie, what is the judge`s background? You mentioned something about he was married to somebody`s daughter. How does that fit in?

CARR: Well, again, Nancy, Vermont is one of those cases where you don`t have to stand for election. You just have to know somebody, basically. And he`s originally from New Jersey. He`s a Vietnam vet. He went to B.C. He met the daughter of a Vermont Supreme Court justice when he was going to Boston College. Then he moved to Vermont, and he sort of moved up through the ranks.

And he was a prosecutor. And then he was appointed to the bench by a Republican governor, Snelling, in 1983. And, again, he was a real hard- liner for a number of years. He was the real darling of the -- you know, the law and order crowd.

There`s a case that was cited a lot during this whole controversy. Ten years ago, he was handling a rape case, and he jailed the parents of the suspect in the rape case for 41 days because they weren`t cooperating with the authorities. So, I mean, this guy has done a complete 180-degree turnaround.

GRACE: Out to Marc Klaas, president of Beyond Missing, Marc, I just keep thinking about this girl, growing up and knowing what this judge has done, and we`re still paying him.

KLAAS: Well, you know what? That`s absolutely correct. But I think that that little girl and all of the other girls who have been victimized in these high-profile cases over the course of the last several years must understand that their outrage has been met with legislative change. And ultimately, that will be a good thing, and guys like Cashman won`t be able to do this again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t believe it. He should pay for what he did to my baby. It`s not fair. She`s not even at home with me, and he can be home (INAUDIBLE) what he did in my house.

CASHMAN: It accomplishes nothing of value. It doesn`t make anything better. It costs us a lot of money. We create a lot of expectation. The one message I want to get through is that anger doesn`t solve it. It just corrodes your own soul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So we don`t send a child molester to jail, because it costs the system money? Howie Carr, this is totally bass-ackwards. How much money is this judge going to make with his pension?

CARR: I`m going to guess about between $60,000 and $80,000. So he`ll go out with the full pension. Again, he`s been on the public payroll his entire life, so he`ll do very well.

GRACE: I`m tempted to pay him to get off the bench.

CARR: Excuse me?

GRACE: I`m tempted to pay him to get off the bench, to go into early retirement.

CARR: You`ll get your wish in March, so he`s gone. And, you know, again, he`ll live a nice, long life, and I`m sure he`ll make the speaking tour of certain I don`t know what groups.

GRACE: I can`t believe he got an award. He says this controversy was the highlight of his career.

CARR: Well, don`t you think, Nancy, that guys like this just -- that they somehow mistake their wrong-headedness and the criticism they get with courage? And this is -- you see this happen around the country.

GRACE: I`ll tell you who it also hurts, in addition to the little girl, the child sex attack victim -- back out to you, Mike Brooks -- is prosecutors and police trying to make cases every day. Then they come up with a judge like this.

BROOKS: Oh, it`s unbelievable, Nancy. You know, we lock them up, and the U.S. attorney papers the case, and sends it to the judge. The judge lets the guy out after six months. It`s just -- it`s ridiculous. But, you know, the cops and the U.S. attorneys and the district attorneys are going to keep doing their job, because that`s what they`re paid to do.

GRACE: God willing.

BROOKS: Really.

GRACE: Tonight, we stop to remember Army Private First Class Stephen Bicknell, just 19 years old, Prattville, Alabama. First tour of duty, killed, Iraq. He put college on hold to serve his country. Full of life, he leaves behind a grieving widow named Miranda, pregnant with their only child. Stephen Bicknell, American hero.

Thank you to our guests. Our biggest thank you to you for being with us. NANCY GRACE signing off until tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, friend.

END