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Nancy Grace

Police Still Investigating Raleigh Pregnant Mom Murder

Aired November 14, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Tonight: A 29-year-old pregnant North Carolina mother and championship cheerleader found murdered inside her Raleigh home, her 2-year-old little girl found unharmed at the crime scene. Her family breaks their silence as police search for her killer.
And to Colorado, where yet another teacher-student sex scandal rocks the city of Brighton (ph), an attractive 29-year-old social studies teacher and cheerleading coach charged with sexually assaulting a 17-year-old student. In a twist, the accused teacher is the principal`s wife, and it`s at the same high school where a substitute teacher pleaded guilty to similar charges.

But first to North Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA FISHER, MOTHER OF MURDERED WOMAN: We are shaken and heartbroken over the tragic loss of Michelle. She`s a wife, a sister, a granddaughter, and most importantly, the mother of my only granddaughter, Cassidy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Good evening, everyone. I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. She was just 29. She was beautiful. She was pregnant. And the thought of her little baby by her side while she was laying dead just gets to me.

Let`s go right to Jean Casarez of Court TV for an update. What do cops know about this case? Who are they looking at? And give us some of these heart-breaking details, Jean.

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, they probably know a lot more than we do, at this point because it is still a very active criminal investigation. They have said that no one is a suspect, no one is a person of interest, but they are also not discounting anyone. They are still collecting evidence and processing evidence at the scene.

And I think what happened last week is probably the most we`ve heard so far, is that Jason Young, her husband, got met with a non-testimonial identification order, which meant that he was asked to give some forensics -- his DNA, some of his fingerprints. He also has an attorney, but once again, he is not a suspect. They also say, though, this was not a random act.

LALAMA: Right. That`s incredibly important. But Jean, you know what? There`s a couple of little interesting twists and turns here. And we understand that it was her sister who discovered her the following day. The sister says, Oh, you know, it was just a fluke. My brother-in-law called me and said, Gee, could you go over to the house and pick up a fax for me. What do we know about that?

CASAREZ: Very unusual, November 3, Friday, November 3. And what Meredith, that is the sister of Michelle Young, says, that she got a phone call from Jason Young, the husband, saying, Can you go over to the house and pick up a fax? And she thought that was odd because he had never asked her to do that before. She went over and around 1:30 in the afternoon, she saw her sister in the bedroom, face down and dead. And there was blood all over. Remember, Michelle Young was pregnant with their second child.

LALAMA: Exactly. I want to go Mike Brooks, a former D.C. police officer. Mike, you`ve seen, heard some of the evidence that we have, what little we do have. You as a cop, what would you do first? Where would you go first?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, I`ll tell you, what bothers me, too, there was no sign of forced entry at all, Pat. And to me, that stands out. That`s a glaring -- you know, it looks like -- it`s probably someone she probably knew or probably trusted. This is a quiet neighborhood, extremely well-to-do. In fact, the neighbors are shocked. They`re -- you know, they don`t know what`s going on. The police aren`t telling them at all what`s going on. They`re holding their cards very close to the vest. And they say it was homicide, blunt force trauma to the head.

LALAMA: Right.

BROOKS: Apparently, a very bloody crime scene. But you know, they haven`t said much about what evidence they have from the scene, either, Pat. But you know, we do know that there were a number of bloody footprints from her 2-year-old daughter, who had been walking around...

LALAMA: Heart-breaking.

BROOKS: ... in her mother`s blood for some time.

LALAMA: Oh!

BROOKS: But you know, there`s a lot of questions to be asked. And you know, one of the questions is, putting together a timeline of her husband, Jason, from the time he left to the time he went on his business trip...

LALAMA: Right.

BROOKS: ... to the time he went to stay with relatives almost 300 -- over 300 miles away, in the mountains of western North Carolina.

LALAMA: Now, that -- you know what? That timeline is so, so critical, Jean Casarez from Court TV, because as I understand it, the mother had a guest on Thursday night until about 10:30. Now, first of all, who was that guest? Why don`t we know who that guest was? That seems to me would really help us make or break this case.

CASAREZ: That is very important evidence. We hear that it`s friends, possibly girlfriends. They left around 10:30. What was the conversation they had? What was her demeanor like? How were her emotions at that time? We don`t know any of that, but you know that was a critical and is a critical part of this investigation.

LALAMA: Well, Jean, I`m with you. I got to believe that the cops know a lot more, and they`re being -- I mean, some of the comments I`ve heard from police, it`s, Don`t worry. This is just going to be good police work. And you get the sense that they know where they`re going, but like so many other police departments, have a hard time doing, they`re keeping so incredibly quiet about it. We know that the father left on Thursday night to go on this business trip. Do we know what time on Thursday he left?

CASAREZ: You know, I`ve heard Thursday evening. I`ve heard Thursday twilight. I don`t think it was in the morning hours of Thursday, November 2. But we do know that he arrived at his family`s home. He was there to do business, we understand, but was staying with his family, but we don`t know exactly when he arrived at his family`s home, which is critically important because that would be his alibi, that he just couldn`t have been in the region during the time when she was killed.

LALAMA: Absolutely. That timeline is so amazing. Now, you know, let`s talk to Dr. Daniel Spitz, a forensic pathologist. Here`s my question. What do we have? We have some blood. But you know, it`s very possible the father`s blood could be anywhere in the house for any reason. He lived there. We have a very cold body. Tell us what you know, based on those two things.

DR. DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, one thing you want to try and figure out to fit into your timeline is when did her death occur. And there are ways you can do that. One, the temperature of the body is one factor. You look at other things, as well, to try and determine when the death occurred and to see if that fits in with what you know about the whereabouts of the husband. What...

LALAMA: But it makes it -- I`m sorry. Go ahead.

SPITZ: Well, the blood evidence is also very important. You want to try and identify what kind of a murder weapon you have. You want to do careful forensics on the victim`s body. This could be a sexually motivated crime. It may not be, but you still want to take all those specimens, DNA under the fingernails, certainly that shouldn`t be there, even if it is her husband being -- living in the house. All that`s very, very important, so it needs to be carefully evaluated. And if you do so, I think you`ll get some good evidence out of it.

LALAMA: All right, we want to go to our callers, who I`m sure have some very, very interesting questions. Levi in Tennessee, are you with us?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am. I want to know the dirtbag who did this.

LALAMA: I`m sorry, sir? You want to know who it is? OK. Well, we`d all like to know. And let`s keep in mind what`s very important to stress is that the father is not considered a suspect. Obviously, it`s fair to say that the father`s always the first to be looked at. It`s just common. But he hasn`t had to go into any kind of serious investigation.

And I think Jean will be able to explain that. You called it the non- identification something-or-other. Go ahead and explain that to us.

CASAREZ: Non-testimonial identification order. Now, law enforcement got this from a judge, but it enables them to get forensics from Jason Young, but he does not have to give a statement and he will not be interrogated. So he is protected from that, at this point, just to give those forensics to show his identification.

LALAMA: Right. And we`re talking about Jason, who I refer to as the father, I mean, the father of the small child but the husband of the deceased.

Now, I want to go to Lillian Glass, psychologist. Lillian, that 2- year-old baby -- will that baby have any memory of this? And will that help in the investigation if it`s possible?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, the baby may not have a specific memory as to what happened, but the baby will have a sense memory. Something went wrong. And as she gets older and knows exactly what`s happened, this will have a traumatic affect on her future.

LALAMA: But could that -- I mean, is it possible -- is it out of the realm of possibility that you could see this child being investigated such that -- what do you remember? I mean, in order -- and to be used as an investigative tool, so to speak.

GLASS: Absolutely. They have to talk to this child in terms that the child can understand because she`s not developed cognitively to speak as an adult can speak, obviously. But there are things that she can come up with pictures. They can show her things. What happened? If she`s verbal, they can get a lot of information from her, depending on how they ask her the question. They need to use open-ended questions so they don`t lead her in the wrong direction, or the right direction.

LALAMA: Right. And that`s going to be real interesting to watch evolve.

Dan Horowitz, who is defense attorney on the team, we want to hear your side, at this point, in terms of how you would look at it as a defense attorney. Do you think the media`s been fair so far? Oftentimes, I mean, it likes to jump the gun. Do you think they`ve been fair to the husband, Jason, so far?

DAN HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`ve been fair to the husband, Jason. I don`t know if the media has been. The media always jumps on the husband. It`s so easy to do.

In this case, as a defense attorney, I`m worried about the fact that he called and said to the sister, Come get the fax. It looks like he might have killed his wife, left his 2-year-old there and then got worried about the 2-year-old and wanted her found. So that`s a bad fact.

But by and large, what you`ve got is no evidence whatsoever against the husband. But little inklings still bother me, like the fact that they got the non-testimonial warrant.

LALAMA: Right.

HOROWITZ: Why didn`t the husband just come forward voluntarily to give blood and DNA and so on? So it`s...

LALAMA: Yes, that -- you know -- I`m sorry. Go ahead.

HOROWITZ: I was just going to...

LALAMA: Well, I was just going to -- I was going to say that that`s a very good point. I mean, he lawyered up real fast, which, you know, if you think about it, if you`re in his shoes, you might think, Oh, Lord, let me just get somebody to go in with me. But his stepfather immediately accused the police of being people who would twist it around and make him look guilty. Does that smell to you at all?

HOROWITZ: Well, a lot of times, the police can be a little bit rough, particularly when they find a gruesome crime scene. Remember, police officers are generally young men and women who, you know, have the best interests of people in mind. So when they see a bloody body like that, they flip out, just like you and I would flip out. And they could be a little bit rough on the husband...

LALAMA: Right.

HOROWITZ: ... and make him think he`s a suspect. Then again, they seem to be very professional here. And as a defense attorney, I`d like the husband to hire me so I could protect him, but as a defense attorney, I`d be saying, Hey, take his blood. Take his DNA.

LALAMA: Right.

HOROWITZ: Don`t waste a minute writing up a warrant. What do you need?

LALAMA: Yes. These law enforcement people seem to be really taking the high road. They`re being very quiet, protecting the family, and you know, protecting anyone else who could be involved.

Holly Hughes, our prosecutor, you know, a lot of times -- and I`ve covered so many of these cases -- we can`t help but look to someone in the family. Does anything sound a little strange? Now, I`m just throwing out things. I`m not indicting anybody. But the sister says, you know, It was a fluke. I went over to get a fax. He had never called me to ask me to go check a fax before, but I did it for him. Does any of that sound a little odd?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think it sounds extremely odd, Pat. And the first thing I`m thinking is, first of all, he didn`t mention that he couldn`t get ahold of his wife. None of that has been brought out.

LALAMA: Right.

HUGHES: The first thing he should have done...

LALAMA: And if I could just interject one second -- you can have a fax sent to you, you know, just about anywhere unless you`re down in a cave.

HUGHES: That`s exactly right. Absolutely. I think it`s highly suspicious, Pat. He had never done this before. He didn`t say to the sister, you know, I`ve called her office, I`ve called the home, I can`t get ahold of her. This is really important. Can you do me a favor, run over there and see if -- I think it stinks to high heaven. And the fact that he had never done it before, I think it`s exactly like one of your earlier guests said, he`s worried about his daughter. He knows what happened in that house, and all of a sudden, he`s worrying about that baby, and so he sends her over there to look for this fax.

LALAMA: Any of you -- let`s -- let`s go to Mike Brooks. I mean, again, we don`t -- you know, no one has been indicted. No one`s been charged. No one is considered a suspect at this point. Is there any -- does your radar, your cop radar, send you any which way on this case? Does the father seem just a little bit iffy on some of the things he`s had to say to the cops.

BROOKS: I`ll tell you what, Pat. I have to agree with Holly that, you know, it is. It`s one of the glaring things, you know, like there`s no forced entry. The child is left there. He happens to call his -- why didn`t he call her? That`s my question.

LALAMA: Right.

BROOKS: You know, early on, we heard that this was a fax that he didn`t want his wife to find. So he`s going to call and have his wife`s sister find this? That`s very, very odd to me.

But again, you know, it`s circumstantial right now. We don`t know much more about this. The police are being very professional in this. They`re making sure that they -- you know, they`re dotting all their I`s and crossing all their T`s. They`re not going to let anything out before they have to. They`re building a case. They`re trying to...

LALAMA: Right.

BROOKS: Number one, you know, they want to go ahead and eliminate the husband and eliminate the sister. The people closest to the victim they want to eliminate, so they -- so if they`re not involved, they can concentrate on the person who really did do this.

LALAMA: Yes. Yes. It sounds like -- I mean, the potential for trying to manipulate the timeline, which would be, you know, obviously, something somebody would want to do, if, in fact, they might be the guilty party.

We have Sherry in New Hampshire. You`ve got a question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?

LALAMA: Yes. Hi. Who are we with, Sherry?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

LALAMA: OK. From New Hampshire. Go ahead, Sherry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. The thing I`m wondering is what was in that fax that he didn`t want his wife to see?

LALAMA: Excellent question! Who wants to answer that question? You know, the question being, What`s in the fax? I mean -- and you know, why - - anybody want to answer that? Mike? Anybody? Holly?

BROOKS: Well, I`ll tell you, you know, we were just -- we were just talking. But it was something, apparently, that early on, he did not want his wife to find. And as I said, Pat, I find that very interesting that he would ask her to go over there and get that. You know, Take a look. You know, what is the relationship? Again, we`re not -- you know, everyone -- the presumption of innocence. But everything`s going to be taken a look at from his personal relationship to his professional relationship, to the family`s, to her -- the victim`s relationships at work. You know, again, there was no forced entry. Was it someone she knew? Was it a stalker? Was it -- or was this, you know, a random act of violence? But it doesn`t look like it right now, Pat.

LALAMA: Absolutely. OK.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." New details from a witness in a parent`s worst nightmare, a 2-year-old boy tucked into his crib, mom in the next room with a video. Then she says the window screen slashed, the baby gone. Almost immediately, police name mom Melinda Duckett the prime suspect. The day before Melinda reports her son missing in late August, a witness recalls seeing little Trenton at a local Wendy`s restaurant on two different occasions. Anyone with information, call 1-800-423-TIPS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: I`m asking for anyone who has seen or heard anything, please come forward and help find the person who murdered our daughter, my daughter. I loved Michelle, and she`s gone!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. That`s the mother of 29- year-old Michelle Young. Can you imagine? I mean, a woman five months pregnant, loved by everyone, you know, upstanding citizen, a master`s degree, a tax consultant, thrilled about her second child, who was to be a son.

Jean Casarez from Court TV, I want to go back to the father just a second. He had a business trip. Can we verify that that was in the works? Do we know where he had the business trip? Did the people he met with verify that he was with them?

CASAREZ: Well, that`s all important information. I don`t think any of it has come out. We understand he was a salesman in the computer arena area and that he did have business close to his parents, was going to visit his parents at the same time.

You know, Pat, an interesting report that`s out of a local affiliate in the Raleigh-Durham area, WRAL, which is a very respected affiliate, says that Progress Energy, which is the company that Michelle Young worked for - - that they already had a high-profile death this year, that one of their employees was abducted out of a parking lot and her body was later found. So this is something that either would be very good in the defense for someone or Progress Energy and someone that has been targeted should be looked at, at that.

LALAMA: Yes, you know, that`s very interesting because, in that case, as I understand it, that employee was murdered in a parking garage somewhere, not at the business. And this young lady, Ms. Young or Mrs. Young, was murdered inside her house. You know, I don`t know, connect the dots. But you know, let`s go to Holly Hughes, our prosecutor. Do you think that other murder -- how much will that play into it? Obviously, they`re going to look at a case like that.

HUGHES: Well, obviously, they`re going to look at it, Pat, but they already have a suspect in custody on that case, Antonio Chance (ph). And what they need to do is find out if -- obviously, if he`s in custody, then he couldn`t have committed this crime. They need to look at the similarity of the killings. They need to find out if, in fact, these women even knew each other. How big is this company? Is it 600 employees or is it 6 employees?

LALAMA: Right.

HUGHES: Are they working in the same business? You know, the victim in our instant case was working in finance. Was the other victim in the financial department? Did she have access to the same kind of records. Is there something going on at the company? And again, because the police are being very professional and keeping a very close-to-the-vest investigation, we don`t know at this point. But it would be important to explore all those questions to find out if there`s any kind of connection between them at the business.

LALAMA: Yes. It`s just so odd, isn`t it? I mean, there`s so many interesting twists and turns.

We`ve got Tina in Canada, who has a call -- is on the phone and has a question. Tina?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Pat. Love your show.

LALAMA: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering if maybe he was having an affair. Do you know if there was ere any marital problems.

LALAMA: Well, you know, it`s interesting you ask that because someone said, Gee, could it have been -- again, let`s just make it clear, nobody is a target. We`re just throwing things out here. I don`t want any hate mail.

But maybe let`s go to Lillian Glass, our psychologist. You and I actually discussed this very matter in the makeup room.

GLASS: We did.

LALAMA: OK?

GLASS: Yes, we did.

LALAMA: The possibility of him having an affair. You were curious about the sister being there suddenly, even though the sister said she just simply went there as a favor to him. What`s on your mind?

GLASS: It was just odd that the sister was called. It was just very, very odd. How long was the child there? That`s another thing to be concerned about. There are just a lot of suspicious things that also make you look at the sister equally.

LALAMA: OK. You know what? I want to ask Dan Horowitz -- something interesting. Apparently, a few months ago, this very couple got into a very bizarre car accident, where the car veered off the road and went into a ditch, and I think there was a river or a lake or a stream around. Obviously, they both lived. And I have no information, no reason to believe that there was anything clandestine about it, but I don`t know, does that just throw some new little weird ingredient into the pot to you?

HOROWITZ: Again, I`m sitting here, making believe I`m defending the husband because he`s...

LALAMA: Right.

HOROWITZ: ... finally charged with this. And at first, I`m sitting and thinking, Well, it could be a crime of passion, if he did it. After all, the child is there, he loves the child. Crime of passion. But then you tell me about the car accident and I wonder, was he trying to kill her and make it look like an accident? So there`s a lot to this case. This is a very interesting case from the defense point of view.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: My name is Linda Fisher, and Michelle Young is my daughter. We are shaken and heartbroken over the tragic loss of Michelle. She`s a wife, a sister, a granddaughter, and most importantly, the mother of my only granddaughter, Cassidy. I`m asking for anyone who has seen or heard anything, as trivial as you might think it is, anything, to please come forward and help find the person who murdered our daughter, my daughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Utterly heart- breaking. Former Washington, D.C., police officer Mike Brooks, am I just a bad girl because the Scott Peterson case keeps going through my mind? Now, again -- I`m just going to say it again, there`s no one we have as a target. No one`s being incriminated, indicted or accused right now. But what do you think? I can`t help it. There`s just so many of the same circumstances to me.

BROOKS: Pat, I`m with you on that. We were discussing that on the break and that -- we were discussing it last week when it was on. I mean, the first thing I heard, some of these incidents that have happened in the past, first thing I thought was Scott Peterson. I covered that for CNN...

LALAMA: Right. Right.

BROOKS: ... and broke his arrest and was out in Modesto in the Bay area for quite some time. And I tell you what, Pat. That`s the -- one of the first things that came to mind. You know, salesman, that kind of thing...

LALAMA: You know what, Mike?

BROOKS: ... and at the same time...

(CROSSTALK)

LALAMA: Oh, I know.

BROOKS: You know?

LALAMA: Pregnant mother. And you know what really gets me is I heard someone say the other day that oftentimes, people go running to their mamas after they`ve been bad. Now, you know, I don`t know. Scott Peterson did sort of do that with his mother. This husband -- and again, you know, he did go visit his family after the business trip. We just don`t know.

BROOKS: Well, you know, you`re going to -- you`re going to get support, no matter what you do...

LALAMA: Got to go!

BROOKS: ... from your husband and your family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-nine-year-old Carrie McCandless, a social studies teacher and cheerleading coach at Brighton Charter High School, has been under investigation since late last month. Brighton police say she`s accused of having an inappropriate sexual relationship with a 17-year-old male student. They plan to present charges to the Larimer County district attorney Thursday.

This is the second time in less than a year an adult at Brighton Charter High has been investigated for having an inappropriate relationship with a student.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Hello, I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. Here we go again: Yet another teacher-student sex scandal. This time in Colorado, where an attractive 29-year-old teacher turns herself in on sexual assault charges. Carrie McCandless accused of having sexual contact with a 17-year-old male student during a school trip to a YMCA lodge.

And just moments ago, she walks out of a Jefferson County jail on $20,000 bond. Wait until you hear the weirdo details on this one, right, Chris Barge, a reporter in Colorado from the "Rocky Mountain News." Go, Chris.

CHRIS BARGE, "ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS": Hey, Pat, how are you doing?

LALAMA: I`m well, thank you.

BARGE: Well, OK, the story is Carrie McCandless is charged now and she turned herself in this morning. The charges that she was up on a camping trip. She was the sole chaperone with this charter school and that she had an inappropriate relationship in a room up at the YMCA of the Rockies.

This took about a week to break. It actually didn`t break until a news reporter called up the police and said, "What do we do about this?" And they said first we`ve heard.

The update today is that not only has she been arrested, but also the president of the board of the charter school has been arrested for failing to report and, also, for possibly tampering with a witness, which would be a felony.

LALAMA: All right. Now, do we know if she`s had an ongoing relationship with this young man or whether it was a, you know, one-time deal? And also, my understanding is that, in your state, you know, this kind of betraying the -- you know, betraying a minor is not -- it doesn`t have to do with actually, you know, molesting them. It could be just perhaps kissing them, could be all kinds of things. So we don`t how in- depth this so-called relationship got that night, correct?

BARGE: Yes, we don`t know at all. And, you know, we`re probably not going to know details for probably three weeks. The arrest affidavit won`t be released until she`s advised, and that`s not going to happen until December 5th.

LALAMA: All right. Now, Jean Casarez, Court TV, I`m sorry, this is just so bizarre to me. We`ve got the 29-year-old who`s married to the principal. Then, we have the -- now, let me get this straight -- the chairman of the board of the charter school, who just faced his own charges today for not calling the cops fast enough, and it turns out that his own son who was once a substitute teacher there also pled guilty at one time to molesting children, not while he was a teacher, but while he was a firefighter. Do I have that straight?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: This is very complicated. It gets very complex. He was -- now, we`re talking about the son of the school board president -- he was a substitute teacher, and he met some females while he was a substitute teacher. When he was no longer that substitute teacher, he actually spent New Year`s Eve of last year with three of the females, ages 14 through 16. He has now pleaded guilty to sexual assault on a child and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He won`t be sentenced until January, but he`s facing 12 years himself.

LALAMA: Well, I`ll tell you, it looks like nepotism reign supreme around here. We`re going to hear a little bit of sound from one of the school officials. Let`s roll that tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any inappropriate contact between teachers and the students is something that has to be viewed in the most serious light. In a setting where you have a responsibility to all these children, you are compelled, let`s say, to make that knowledge available to the proper authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It gives you second thoughts. Will I pull my daughter out? No, I don`t think so. I`m hoping the school and the principal will do the right thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Well, obviously, (INAUDIBLE) doesn`t think the principal did the right thing, but, anyway, that was from a KUSA report on the "Today" show this morning. All right, Mike Brooks, you with us?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Yes.

LALAMA: Police officer, you`ve seen these kinds of cases come fast and hard to us lately. What in the world`s going on? And what do we do with this case?

BROOKS: I`ll tell you what, this school is just a mess, Pat.

LALAMA: Yes.

BROOKS: Good God, the player`s you`ve got involved in this. You know, and one of the things I`d be interested in founding out, on the father`s charges of failure to report child abuse and neglect, which is a class-three misdemeanor, as well as tampering with a witness or victim, which is a class-four felony, did any of this also possibly involve his son`s case? That would be a question I would also have.

I talked to the Brighton police today, and they would not tell me exactly what probable cause they had, but that, again, when he goes to court, that will be unsealed. But it`s going to be very anxious to see if it is involving just this case or possibly could be involving his son`s case, also, and exactly what he did to tamper with that victim, because, you know, that`s a class-four felony. They could have adjoining cells in the jail in Brighton.

LALAMA: Oh, heavens. OK, we have Alan in Illinois. Are you with us, Alan?

CALLER: Hi, Pat.

LALAMA: Hi. What`s your question, sir?

CALLER: Well, my concern is, is this female teacher, will she get the same amount of punishment as a male? It seems like lately the male sex offenders are getting a lot more time, punishment, than these female sex offenders.

LALAMA: Well, you know, honey, you just brought up an issue close to my heart. And I want to go to Lillian about this one, because, you know, I was hearing just the other day one of the talk shows here in L.A. where -- swear to heavens -- the talk show host -- and this was a serious talk show host, not a game show or a fun show or anything like that show -- said, "Wow, you know, she`s so attractive. Tell me that boy isn`t smiling."

I mean, please, you know? And then, if it`s a teacher who`s not attractive, then, oh, that`s child abuse. What kind of double standard really does exist in the world today on the cases?

DR. LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, that`s a really good question. And there have been studies out there that show that, when a person looks attractive, they`re perceived as being less guilty of a crime, less problematic than those people that are not as attractive. And even though it`s not fair, it`s a reality.

So when people are looking at this very attractive woman, who`s done this to this child, "Oh, well, it`s OK," and vice versa. If she was unattractive, it would be, "Oh, that is a terrible thing." So there`s a lot of prejudice when it comes to peoples` appearances.

LALAMA: Holly Hughes, very quickly, as a prosecutor, do you see this sort of a thing? And how would you want to handle it as a prosecutor if it were your case?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Well, obviously, you`re going to go for what is an appropriate sentence. You`re going to look at the relationship. Was it ongoing? Was it long? And I think that females need to be treated exactly the same as the males.

LALAMA: Absolutely.

HUGHES: This is an offensive against a child. You are in a position of authority. And to abuse that authority and to put that child in a position where he doesn`t know if he says no, is going to affect his grade, his future, his chances for getting into college? I think you come down on the females as harshly as you come down on the males. I think it`s inexcusable behavior.

LALAMA: Amen. Amen. Amen. And the whole concept that it`s OK because she`s pretty just makes me crazy.

HUGHES: That`s ridiculous.

LALAMA: All right, Chris, but let me ask you, do you know anything about the reaction to this young man, this teenager? Is he traumatized, do we know? What do we know about him?

BARGE: Yes, the only thing I could get there was the police chief last week told me that, you know, he was reluctant to be interviewed, that he was understandably confused over the circumstances. And so you can read into that what you want to.

But basically we`re hearing that this was pretty difficult to investigate, that combined with some sluggishness, to say the least, on the part of the school and others to report this, this story is coming out slowly.

LALAMA: Dan Horowitz, defense attorney, any thoughts from the defense side? I mean, do you think there`s a double standard in these kinds of cases?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that we have to look at whether there should be a double standard. I don`t think that it`s a same when a male teacher exploits 14- to 16-year-old girls, like the son of the principal did or the son of the school board member did, and when a 29- year-old woman has a relationship with a 17-year-old teenager.

LALAMA: You`re saying you don`t think it`s the same?

HOROWITZ: I don`t think it`s the same sociologically or psychologically. Look, I think that we have to draw a line in every society. What is the age of consent? And we`ve decided that 18 is the age of consent in Colorado, in most states, in California. But that does not mean that psychologically a 17-year-old is damaged and, when he turns 18, it`s all of a sudden all right.

I think that this is a crime where we set a rule, but the kid has probably not been hurt. I bet this kid did not come forward; I bet he`s not damaged emotionally; I bet this investigation is hurting him more than the incident with the teacher.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What she did was wrong, and I believe that she is being punished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On June 3rd of 2004, the defendant did perform oral sex on the victim, who was 14 years of age.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that`s the most appalling thing in this situation. You have a teacher that`s (INAUDIBLE) you know, what she wanted and did what she did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This plea negotiation is a direct result of the request of the victim`s families.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It allows Debbie to avoid any prison time, and it allows her to continue with her mental health treatment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son is the most important thing. He needs to move on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Before we go to another one of our callers, I want to ask Lillian, again, our psychologist, Lillian Glass, you know, on this issue of the double standard. You know, where are you on this?

GLASS: Well, where I`m at is that, if a person has committed a crime, against a child, they should be punished for it. And it`s...

LALAMA: But why do a lot of people think that a teenage boy can`t possibly be traumatized by a hot-looking teacher?

GLASS: But they can be.

LALAMA: You know, that there`s no way he`s going to be bad, you know, any kind of repercussions later on in life?

GLASS: They can be traumatized, especially in terms of boundaries, in terms of trust factors. So there are some implications down the road. It may seem like a cool thing. "Oh, look, I`ve gotten my teacher."

LALAMA: Right.

GLASS: But down the road, there are some implications here that can be very devastating psychologically.

LALAMA: I agree. All right, I want to go to my home state, Ohio, where there is Sonny on the line. Sonny?

CALLER: Hi, Pat.

LALAMA: How are you doing?

CALLER: I want to know -- I have a child in school, and these teachers are supposed to take care of my kids. Who`s taking care of the teachers?

LALAMA: Well, you know, that`s a good point, because -- and let`s go to Mike Brooks on this one. You know, in terms of the law and not the law, here is a case where the school didn`t even participate in getting things done legally.

I mean, now we know that, you know, the chairman of the board of the charter school, you know, he`s been charged for not calling the cops fast enough. Who can we trust? And what kind of advice do you have for parents who just don`t know which way to go on these matters?

BROOKS: Well, I`ll tell you, Pat, these charter schools are more of a private school that are funded by some public funds. You know, they have a president. It has nothing to do with the regular school board, so it seems to me that their whole standard of vetting who the teachers are is totally different than the hiring process through the county or through the state.

And, you know, the whole thing is you have to choose your school well. You have to -- it`s up to the parents to decide whether or not they`re going to send their kids to these kind of charter schools. And they have to do their homework on who is running these schools, what the selection process for the teachers are, and what the credentials of these teachers are.

I mean, you can look back to Monday, who was arrested and going to be charged in January, who was the substitute teacher. Keep in mind he was also in a position of trust. He was a firefighter for the city of Brighton.

LALAMA: Absolutely.

BROOKS: And if you can`t trust a firefighter, a police officer, or a teacher, who can you trust?

LALAMA: Absolutely. Jean Casarez of Court TV, do we know if this woman has any kind of a history in terms of inappropriate behavior with young people?

CASAREZ: Well, we don`t know that. We know that she doesn`t really have a criminal background at all. I think there`s a petty traffic ticket that she got, but no. And that`s something that can lead to probation even in a situation like this, no criminal history at all.

And the case that you were just spotlighting, a previous case, that ended up a plea bargain with that woman that was charged with all of those sexual assault counts.

LALAMA: OK. Chris Barge from "Rocky Mountain News," do you know what she faces and when she`s due in court next?

BARGE: Yes. Carrie McCandless faces two felony counts. One is sexual assault on a child by one in a position of trust, and the other is contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

She`s due to appear first in court December 5th at the Larimer County Court, which is the county that contains Rocky Mountain National Park where this happened. She could face, just like the substitute teacher before her, up to 12 years in jail.

LALAMA: You know, Holly Hughes, our prosecutor, the position of trust, see, I just think that`s so important. And it`s interesting, because people put different behaviors in different categories. "Well, he just put his arm around her." Or, "Well, she just gave him a peck on the lips."

Where do you draw the line? What`s inappropriate? What`s not inappropriate? I mean, I like the fact that that`s still a felony. So obviously they take it seriously in the state.

HUGHES: Absolutely. And I think any time you`re talking about physical contact between a teacher and student, in this day and age, you have to be incredibly careful. I don`t think that you need to be hugging on your students; I don`t think you need to be kissing on your students.

I mean, clearly, this is something that`s open to interpretation and can be absolutely misunderstood by the student or by the teacher themselves. I think you need to keep your distance. If the student is trying to engage in inappropriate contact, you need to sit them down in the presence of another teacher or principal and say, "This is inappropriate. This is why it`s inappropriate." I don`t think you need to be touching on your students in this day and age.

LALAMA: Absolutely. And, you know, it`s too bad, because obviously affection, signs of affection are really healthy and wonderful things, but, Dan Horowitz, defense attorney, isn`t it true that these days I would think most teachers, most healthy minded teachers, would be afraid to touch anybody for fear of a lawsuit, right? Because we can bang the drum a different way on this matter.

HOROWITZ: That is exactly the problem. And I`ve even had situations where children have come through people I know and said, "Can you show me your art work?" And the person says, "No, not unless your parents come." So adults who have a lot to give and share with children, particularly males, can`t, because they`re afraid of misinterpretation or false accusations.

So we have to be very careful. It`s very easy to say, "Protect the children." Anything with the word "children" brings a visceral response, but we have to be careful not to hurt the children by overprotecting them.

LALAMA: Yes. You know, it makes you wonder -- here`s my rhetorical question -- is more of this happening today or are we just hearing about it more? I don`t know, but either way it just makes me sad, particularly having children to raise.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any inappropriate contact between teachers and a student is something that has to be viewed in the most serious light.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We originally received the information -- I believe it was Wednesday afternoon, from 9 News. That was followed up by us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. You know, we want to go first with Bill who`s from Wisconsin. Quick question from you, Bill. What do you have?

CALLER: I was just wondering, if this age of consent isn`t nationwide, then how wrong is this, besides the fact that it could be a, you know, some kind of conflict between the school district and the student? How wrong is this actually? I mean, if it`s wrong in one state and not wrong in another, how wrong of a thing is this?

LALAMA: Holly Hughes, take it away.

HUGHES: Well, what`s wrong with it is the position of authority. Again, it goes back to what she`s been charged with.

You know, if you`re out and about, you know, you`re 29 years old, you want to date a 17-year-old that you don`t know, that you just meet at a ball game or something, that`s your business. But when you`re talking about a teacher who`s in a position of authority, that`s what changes it. That`s what makes it a criminal action in this particular instance. So it`s less to do with the age of consent than it is with the apparent authority that she has over him and the ability to really affect his future.

LALAMA: Chris Barge from "Rocky Mountain News," very quickly, when`s the sense in the community around there? Are people just out of their minds with shock?

BARGE: ... the story is still too fresh, really, to gauge too much reaction so far. Right now, it`s just a question of how the school I going to deal with it, and they`ve been pretty quiet themselves.

LALAMA: Well, you know, it`s very upsetting. We can`t paint the charter schools with a broad brush, but certainly I would think the people in that community want to really take a close look at what`s going on there. And we`ll hope for the best for everyone.

Now, tonight, we remember Army Sergeant Kraig Foyteck, just 26, from Skokie, Illinois. His first tour of duty awarded the Purple Heart. Foyteck loved winter sports and water skiing. He leaves behind grieving parents and a younger brother. Kraig Foyteck, American hero.

Thanks to you and to all our guests. Our biggest thank you for being with us, inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace will return tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. And on Thursday and Friday, Nancy will be live from Leesburg, Florida, at the Team Trenton headquarters. Nancy, thanks for the opportunity. I`m Pat Lalama, and have a great evening. Good night.

END