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CNN Larry King Live
O.J. About to Release Controversial Book
Aired November 17, 2006 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, more shocking news on the new O.J. Simpson book that's got the victims' families outraged. His publisher says she's printing what she calls his confession because she was a victim of domestic abuse. Lawyers for murder victim Ron Goldman's dad say they'll never let O.J. collect that reported $3.5 million.
Now, Chris Darden, prosecuting attorney in the Trial of the Century; Gloria Allred, attorney in that trial for the family of O.J.'s murdered ex, Nicole Brown Simpson; John Q. Kelly, who represented the Browns in the civil case; plus, former LAPD homicide detective Tom Lange; Reverend Rosey Grier, O.J.'s professional and personal minister, some say O.J. confessed to him, what do they have to say about all this latest controversy?
You'll find out next on LARRY KING LIVE.
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KING: We have a distinguished panel and we'll begin with the same question for all and ask them to give us an educated guess. Rosey, why did Simpson do this?
REV. ROSEY GRIER, MINISTERED TO O.J. SIMPSON IN JAIL: I don't know. It was his right, his democratic rights to do it, and no one could deny him from doing it. It's what you feel like you want to do and you can do that. That's why we send people off to war to give people the right to do what they want to do.
KING: Do you think he's letting it all out?
GRIER: Yes, but first of all I must say that I really feel bad about the murders. I mean that was a terrible thing to happen and surely they deserved to live but it happened. But just to -- and he went to trial and he was found not guilty. But he had a right to do this. This is what a democracy is about.
KING: Of course, but why do you think he did it, Chris?
CHRIS DARDEN, CO-PROSECUTOR IN O.J. SIMPSON CRIMINAL TRIAL: Oh, for money, for greed.
KING: Just money?
DARDEN: Just money, just greed and perhaps to get back into the public view.
KING: Do you think he's someone who needs the public eye?
DARDEN: I think he absolutely needs the public eye and if you can get $3.5 million to be in it too, you know, that's just gravy on top.
KING: And, Tom Lange, despite what the public may think of you?
TOM LANGE, FMR. LAPD DETECTIVE: What they may think of me?
KING: No, him.
LANGE: Oh, OK. No, I just believe that he has a narcissistic bead to be in the public eye to be out there. I really believe that. It's also financial but I think that he has this thing within him that just says "I've got to be out there." And you see it every few months.
KING: Gloria Allred, are you in a touchy position with this in that Judith Regan I think published your book?
GLORIA ALLRED, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: I don't think I'm in a touchy position but in the interest of full disclosure, yes, she published my book "Fight Back and Win." In addition, she has published books for my clients, Amber Frey, Ann Byrd, who is the sister of Scott Peterson, and I have done other book deals too for books that will come out in the future.
KING: And there's your book up on screen now. What do you make of her and this book?
ALLRED: Well, I want to also say that in my book, "Fight Back and Win," there is a whole chapter in which O.J. Simpson is condemned and I talk about what I think went wrong in the criminal case and why he wasn't prosecuted for perjury after the civil case. And, just O.J. Simpson and what he's done in terms of the family.
KING: Why do you think he did this book?
ALLRED: I think two reasons, one, money, he thinks he can get away with not having it attached or executed upon to satisfy this civil judgment of $33.5 million that was won by the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson and the estate of Ron Goldman.
And, two, attention seeking, he needs it. He's tried his various publicity stunts before, Larry, but he's never had the major...
KING: Nothing like this.
ALLRED: ...impact that he's having with this bombshell.
KING: And, John Kelly in New York, what's your read?
JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON IN CIVIL CASE: It's all about attention, Larry. It's all about O.J. It has nothing to do with money at this point.
KING: Nothing to do with money?
KELLY: No, I don't think it has anything to do with the money. I think that's just a, you know, ancillary incidental thing that he's getting money. I don't think it's anything close to $3.5 million. I think it's all about O.J. and his, you know, sick universe and he wants to be the center of it and that's what it's all about to push him back in the public eye.
KING: And, you don't think it's $3.5 million?
KELLY: No.
KING: All right, you as the attorney for Nicole Brown Simpson you represent you also represented the children, right, Sydney and Justin?
KELLY: They are the estate. I represent Nicole's estate, which is comprised of the two children.
KING: And the two children live with him?
KELLY: They did. They're both off at school now but they grew up with them. Lou and Judy fought for custody, lost, and they ended up with him in Florida.
KING: So when you sue for some attachment of funds from this book who are you suing for?
KELLY: On behalf of the children, you know. If he's, you know, circumvented the judgment and put it away somewhere he'd basically be stealing from the children and I can't let that happen. But, we've got to do a little discovery and see what the money trail is right now, Larry.
KING: Since he is kind of confessing, Rosey, it can now be asked directly did he confess to you?
GRIER: No, absolutely not.
KING: He did not.
GRIER: Someone lied totally.
KING: That was a prison guard right?
GRIER: Yes and no such thing happened.
KING: What did he say when you visited him?
GRIER: No, he was very upset that day and his mother called me to go over there. His sister called me to go to the prison. I went over there and he was really upset and he just was crying out, you know, basically and I was just trying to get him, you know, to calm down so we could talk about the Bible. KING: Upset at what?
GRIER: I don't know just what was going on in his life, I mean the things that he was accused of and just a bad day.
KING: Do you bear any ill will, Chris, against Ms. Regan, against FOX, Harper Collins, the whole (INAUDIBLE)?
DARDEN: Well, I don't know what you mean by ill will. Judith Regan...
KING: Well, are you angry at them?
DARDEN: No, Judith Regan also published my book after the trial.
KING: She's everywhere.
ALLRED: Well, and she's also provided a voice for victims I might add too and there are not that many publishers, Larry, who have done that.
DARDEN: Sure. And I'm shocked quite frankly that she would publish O.J.'s book. In the conversations that I had with her back in 1996, she never gave me any indication that she would ever do such a thing.
KING: Would you think of calling her?
DARDEN: You know I thought of calling her. I think she probably should have called me at least before, you know, I heard about this book quite frankly in the press.
KING: Judith Regan, who did the interview which will air on FOX, and whose company Regan Books is an imprint of Harper Collins will publish the book. She released a statement. Here's a portion of it:
"The men who lied and cheated and beat me they were all there in that room. And, though it might sound a little strange, Nicole and Ron were in my heart. And for them I wanted him to confess his sins, to do penance and to amend his life."
Do you buy that, Tom?
LANGE: No. And, in the interest of disclosure, Judith didn't write my book or publish my book. No, I think if O.J. wants to find out who did it, all he needs to do is really look at the evidence and he will certainly convince himself because he's always been the only suspect. All of the evidence in this case points at him. There's nothing exculpatory and never has been.
KING: Are you angry at them publishing it?
LANGE: Larry, I don't get personal with this stuff. They can publish what they want. I do think, however, that we're probably aiding this whole situation with Regnery and Judith and helping them sell their book. There's been an awful lot of publicity and I just think they're eating it up.
KING: It's not Regnery, it's Harper Collins.
LANGE: Harper Collins, I'm sorry.
ALLRED: And Regan is an imprint of Harper Collins.
KING: She's an imprint of Harper Collins.
ALLRED: May I say, Larry, too...
KING: Are you angry?
ALLRED: Am I angry? I'm angry at O.J. Simpson for killing the mother of his two little children and now inflicting more pain on them, Larry, by publishing this book in which he's really talking if I had killed your mother this is how I would have done it. How disgusting for a father to do that to his own children.
KING: But are you being loyal to Ms. Regan and not criticizing her? She published it. She didn't have to publish it.
ALLRED: You know I don't think it's about Judith Regan. I think it's about O.J. Simpson once again, you know, doing what he is doing and flaunting it and inflicting pain on the families of Nicole Brown Simpson, who have lost their loved one because he murdered her, and inflicting pain on the family of Ron Goldman. What kind of human being is this? He has no shame.
KELLY: Well.
KING: John Kelly, are you angry at Ms. Regan?
KELLY: First of all, I feel I should go home and write a book with the rest of the panel you have here, Larry.
KING: Call Judith Regan.
KELLY: Excuse me?
KING: Call Judith Regan.
KELLY: I don't think I will. You know what the bigger picture, Larry, and I think you were hitting on it, there has to be some level of corporate responsibility and accountability and you have the FOX Network, you have Harper Collins, you have Judith Regan and you have the sponsors of the two-hour-long interviews that are all commercializing and profiting from the platform they're giving Simpson.
I can see Simpson doing this. As a man who murdered two people, he clearly has no conscience. He took away the mother of his children. But for these there corporate entities to be capitalizing on this event and, you know, looking for monetary gain is just inexcusable. There's got to be some sort of, you know, minimal corporate governance or level of consciousness in this world and I'm not seeing it right now with what's going on with this incident.
KING: We'll take a break. When we come back, by the way, we'll be including your phone calls throughout this program.
You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is People's 164-A. Is that the right- hand glove?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Your Honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
KING: Why didn't it fit?
DARDEN: It fit. It fit well enough to kill two people with.
KING: But in court it didn't fit.
DARDEN: Well, it shrank some. He had on latex gloves. He didn't want it to fit.
JOHNNY COCHRAN, ATTORNEY FOR O.J. SIMPSON AT CRIMINAL TRIAL: It's no disguise. It's no disguise. It makes no sense. It doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
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FRED GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN'S FATHER: I would say to her that "You have reached, as a person you have reached a moral low and you have reached into the same world that that sick son-of-a-gun client of yours lives in and you want to become a piece of garbage like him, you're doing it."
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KING: That was Fred Goldman appearing on this show the other night. He has started a new website to start a petition to try to prevent the show from airing. If you want to click in and find out about it, it's called dontpayoj.com, dontpayoj.com; stand much of a chance do you think, Gloria?
ALLRED: Zero. I think FOX is committed to airing it and I believe that it's already an interview that's been taped and I think it's going to happen. But I don't think anyone should -- at least I don't believe whatever O.J. Simpson says and I don't need him to tell me how he did these two murders, if that's what he's going to do because the evidence that was produced, the mountain of evidence as they called it in the criminal case and, of course, the evidence that convinced the jury in the civil case to find him liable for the wrongful death of Nicole and Ron that's the true story of how it happened.
KING: Will you watch it, Chris?
DARDEN: Oh, absolutely not and I'm not convinced that FOX will eventually air it. I mean there has to be somebody with half a brain over at FOX that's saying, "Hey, this is -- this is outrageous. This is a new low in television" and why would they want to be a part of it?
KING: One might ask wouldn't you watch it just for interest?
DARDEN: No, no.
KING: I mean you prosecuted him.
DARDEN: He's not going to confess, OK. I mean the name of the book is "If I did it," you know hypothetically "If I had done it, this is how I would have done it." That's not a confession. That's not an admission that he killed these two people and how he did it and why he did it. This isn't O.J. Simpson showing contrition or asking us for forgiveness or asking his children or the Goldmans or the Browns forgiveness.
ALLRED: Larry, this is a man who testified under oath in the civil case that he never hit, he never slapped, he never kicked or punched Nicole and he said that at the same time that there was a large photograph sitting next to him in the courtroom of Nicole with a black eye and a cut lip and a swollen face and after he had pled no contest to spousal battery of her and had been sentenced for it. Why should we believe him now?
KING: Rosey, do you keep in touch with him?
GRIER: Sometimes I call him, yes.
KING: In your role as a minister, as a friend?
GRIER: As a minister or as a friend. I felt like I got to know him afterwards. And, I think we also need to realize that he was tried by a jury of his peers and they found him not guilty.
KELLY: Irrelevant.
GRIER: So everyone is -- everyone -- irrelevant but that's what democracy is about, you know about the relevancy.
KING: Let him finish.
GRIER: About the relevancy of a trial, anyone go before a trial of his peers.
KING: That's our system. GRIER: That's the system and now everyone...
DARDEN: No, no.
KING: It's not our system?
DARDEN: No, there are some crimes and some acts that people do, OK, and regardless of what a jury says, I mean if there's a child molester living next door and he was found not guilty of child molestation does that make him any less a child molester? Same idea applies...
KING: Unless he didn't child molest.
DARDEN: The same idea applies to O.J. Simpson and he did it. It's all out there for the whole world to see.
LANGE: There were two juries, OK. One of the juries deliberated the evidence and the other one didn't deliberate the evidence.
KING: (INAUDIBLE).
LANGE: The one that did found him.
KING: What about the second trial though?
GRIER: The second trial was liable, liable, which they didn't have to go with the majority of the jury, all the jury agreeing. This could -- I think three, was it three that could disagree?
ALLRED: Yes, two, Larry -- yes, but Larry...
LANGE: It was unanimous though, same evidence.
KING: Hold it. Let Rosey speak.
GRIER: But I'm just saying that -- all I'm saying is that under democracy we have to stand behind the principle of democracy.
KING: Of course.
GRIER: And not go off like in a tangent about someone's rights.
KING: He's criminally innocent.
GRIER: That's what the -- that's what the jury said.
DARDEN: He's nonetheless a criminal. He's nonetheless a criminal and, OK, the jury...
KING: He has no criminal record. He can vote.
DARDEN: OK, well he does have a criminal record. OK, he has a record for spousal abuse, OK, and anybody who saw that trial, who saw the evidence, anyone trying to be fair and objective knows that there's no doubt that O.J. Simpson is the person that committed these murders. And, if he's not going to confess to it, I mean if O.J. Simpson confessed to it and the money was going to the victims and his children, I'd buy the book.
KING: John Kelly, do you understand Rosey Grier's thoughts though...
KELLY: Well, he's a little bit...
KING: ...as his minister and friend?
KELLY: Well, he's a little bit more focused on the criminal case than the civil case where he was found, you know, responsible by a preponderance of the evidence by nine out of 12 jurors.
The one thing that he's forgetting and Chris didn't have the benefit of in the civil case we had the pictures of Simpson in the Bruno Magli shoes that he left the footprints all over the murder scene and in the floor of the Bronco and at his place too.
And also, we had him testify under oath where the jurors didn't believe, you know, one word of what he said under oath. And it's, you know, it's a shame he murdered these two people. There's no question.
He's just a sociopath and a psychopath and he's trying to capitalize on the attention, as I said, and it's sad. And what he's doing to these families and what he's doing to these children is just sinful. It's unforgivable and it's a real tragedy and it tells a really sad story in our society today.
KING: We'll be right back with more. And we'll be including your calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, in the above-entitled action find the defendant Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This week the world learned O.J. Simpson is not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: First, I would like to address some of the misrepresentations made about myself and Nicole concerning our life together. I'm mindful of the mood and the stamina of this jury. I have confidence, a lot more it seems than Ms. Clark has, of their integrity that they will find, as the record stands now, that I did not, could not and would not have committed this crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back.
We'll be including your phone calls.
Simpson's attorney said he didn't know about the book or the interview until this week. He also said that only one chapter deals with the murders and that chapter has a disclaimer that it's complete fiction.
First question, Tom Lange, if only one chapter deals with the murders what's the rest of the book about?
LANGE: Yes, good question. I think we're all going to be very, very disappointed in the book once it comes out. Once again, all you have to do is look at this evidence. What else could this individual talk about? There's nothing else to talk about. All the evidence goes in one direction. And nothing has changed in all these years, nor will it ever.
KING: He says it's fiction, Chris. If we don't believe it's fiction, what's his point of view in writing this? I'm trying to -- what?
DARDEN: My point -- my point exactly. I mean why go spend 20 bucks on this so-called fiction? Judith Regan says it's a confession. O.J. says it's fiction. You know I mean what's the point? Well, the point is to sell books and to make money. Why would you waste your money on something like this? It's a huge farce. It's a fraud.
KING: Rosey, you're not saying he didn't do this, right? You're just merely standing by the law that he was found not guilty?
GRIER: Yes, absolutely. But, maybe he has something to say that we need to hear. I mean maybe he has a point in making -- in writing this book.
ALLRED: Larry, may I say I don't think there's anything that Mr. Simpson has to say that we need...
KING: Well, you're prejudging it now. We don't know.
ALLRED: Well, I'm -- yes, I'm prejudging Mr. Simpson based on what we've heard from him in the last 12 years. And let me just say about the criminal case and the civil case, you know there was a big difference, Rosey, because in the criminal case it was the burden of the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. They didn't meet that burden.
However, in the civil case, there was a different standard of proof, Larry, and that standard of proof was clear and convincing evidence in order for punitive damages to be awarded and the jury found by clear and convincing evidence that he did it.
So, yes, that jury verdict still stands today because he appealed from it. It was affirmed on appeal. He couldn't get it reversed and that's why he owes the money that he owes.
KING: Are they going to get it?
ALLRED: I hope that they'll go after it. And, you know, Larry, when he's trying to avoid and escape the responsibility to pay the judgment, particularly the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson, the beneficiaries of that estate are his own children, Sydney and Justin, so why would he try to get away with not paying the money to his own children. But then again, of course, he doesn't care about his own children. If he did, how could he kill their mother?
KING: Chris, was this a slap in the face this book, and, again, we haven't read it, at the prosecution?
DARDEN: Well, I don't know that it's a slap in the face at the prosecution. Certainly, if we had not failed, you know, in that courtroom I wouldn't have to be confronted with O.J. and, you know, the most recent O.J. BS but here he is.
KING: Well, Simpson saying (INAUDIBLE) you didn't prove it.
DARDEN: Well, you know what, I wish he would say he did it and I didn't prove it. I mean that would be a step in the right direction I think but he won't say that.
LANGE: Why should it take 12 years for him to come out with this, why 12 years? Why not 10 or 13 or 9 or something?
DARDEN: Still cleaning up the blood.
ALLRED: So, in other words, was he lying when he said he was out there looking for the real killer? Or, is he lying now?
KING: Did you know that Judith Regan was treated poorly as a youngster? Did you know that she was...
ALLRED: I did have a sense of it. I like her a lot by the way.
KING: You do?
ALLRED: As a person who understand what a lot of women have suffered in their lives and I think she does understand that part.
KING: Here's another thing Regan said defending her interview:
"They have all but called for my death for publishing this book and for interviewing him. A death, I might add, not called for when Katie Couric interviewed him, not called for when Barbara Walters had an exclusive with the Menendez brothers, who killed their parents in cold blood. To publish does not mean to endorse. It means to make public."
She later even said: "Do you condemn, John Kelly, the publishers of "Mein Kampf" the Hitler autobiography?" Don't people have the right to publish?
KELLY: You know what, Larry, there's a -- it was interesting because I actually spent a lot of time last night talking to Barbara Walters in midtown here and, you know, we went over this whole thing. Even when you talk about Katie Couric or Barbara Walters or other people that did these interviews, it wasn't to promote a book. It was an interview.
Judith Regan has two one-hour interviews to promote a book that she published for financial gain. That's the difference between what she's doing and those other interviews.
And, you know, I hate to keep trying to shift away from the monetary aspects of this on a personal level with Simpson but, you know, when you look at Judith Regan claiming she did this because of her own domestic violence experiences, you know, that should be the last person in the world that should be opening the wounds in this family and these children.
I talked for a long time today to Lou and Judy, you know, and I love them dearly. They're wonderful people and their hearts are just breaking. They're breaking, you know, reliving this.
Their hearts are breaking thinking of the children and they have to go out in public and it's just putting the money thing aside, you know, on the personal level, the corporate level, what -- the wounds this man is opening, knowing he's opening them for his own gratification, attention, is just -- it's just really sad.
KING: Doesn't it bother you, Rosey, that money is being made on this?
GRIER: Well, everyone is making money, even this show. I mean everyone is making money off of the talk about this now, I mean so I just -- I wouldn't have done it but then I'm not O.J. He can -- he has a right to do what he wants to do.
KING: So, it doesn't particularly bother you that...
GRIER: No.
KING: ...FOX is going to show it and they're going to make money on it?
GRIER: No, because in the end his children will get everything anyway.
KING: We're going to take a break and come back with more. We'll be including your phone calls. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLDMAN: Nothing would surprise me that this S.O.B. would do but the fact that someone is willing to publish this garbage, that FOX is willing to put it on air is just morally despicable to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMPSON: I do believe that if my trial were to take place today that the average citizen who may have thought that I got away with murder would look at the evidence of planning a little closer. There's many questions that have yet to be answered of, you know, various things in my trial, (INAUDIBLE) and blood drops and stuff appearing that wasn't there before. I truly believe today that they would look and probably accept some of the proof that we put on in our trial, be a little more accepting of that than they were at the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with more on this intriguing story. Let's reintroduce the panel and get to some phone calls. Rosey Grier, the Hall of Fame football star...
GRIER: Not Hall of Fame.
KING: Well, I put you in my Hall of Fame.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: Hey, wait a minute! I have my own Larry King Hall of Fame. You're one of the greatest ever, so I put you in it. Don't tick me! I'll take you on.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: And that'll be the day. Reverend Rosey Grier, one of the great football players ever, who ministered to O.J. Simpson while he was in the jail.
And by the way, the movie "Bobby" is opening tonight, and Rosey Grier was present when Bobby Kennedy was killed. In fact, he was the man who took the gun away from Sirhan Sirhan.
Chris Darden, the prosecutor in the Simpson criminal trial, now in private practice. Tom Lange, the former LAPD detective. He oversaw the investigation of the murders with Detective Vannatter. And he's in private security, as well. Gloria Allred, who represented the Brown family during the Simpson criminal case. Her new book, which deals in part with this case, is "Fight Back and Win." And in New York, John Q. Kelly, attorney for the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson. He played a major role as the trial attorney in the civil case where Simpson was found liable for the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.
We'll go to calls. Tinley Park, Illinois. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Larry. I'm wondering if there's any way that we can find out who the sponsors of this program are going to be and let them know that we'll boycott their products, should they choose to air the program.
KING: Boycott is as American as apple pie. You're entitled to do it. Do you know how to find out who they are? Does anyone know? DARDEN: You know, I don't know who they are, although, you know, a lot of people have been asking who the sponsors are.
KING: Of course, you can do this. When it airs, you make a list of the sponsors and you boycott them after it airs. You know, you don't stop the airing, but you do create economic havoc with a boycott. A lot of people have boycotted effectively.
Albuquerque, New Mexico. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I want the Browns and Goldmans to know we're all thinking of them. And my question is, Is there any way to book the put this book on the Internet so there'll be no money to anybody, especially O.J.?
KING: Ever think about that, John, put it on the Internet? Everybody can read it free.
KELLY: I'm sure there are copyright issues with that, and certainly, Regan publishing wouldn't be too happy with it.
You know what I want to add, that, you know, talking about boycotts and things, there's a real grass roots movement right now to go after Fox and the sponsors, like the other caller mentioned. You have the Family Violence Prevention Fund. You've got the National Network to End Domestic Violence. You've got the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence. You have huge organizations right now that are encouraging its members and the public at large to, you know, not watch the show, to boycott the sponsors and not buy the book.
And you know, there's a chance it still might not air -- as you recall, NBC pulled its interview with Simpson after the criminal case -- and I think if Fox has some sort of, you know, twinge of consciousness, and it'd be nice to see this not happen still.
KING: And Ron Goldman has started Dontpayoj.com, also. Do you think there's a chance they'll pull it, Gloria?
ALLRED: I think it's doubtful. But I think it's not going to change anybody's mind. I think that the majority of the American public has shown in every poll, Larry, that they believe that Simpson did it, and so they agree with the civil jury. And I don't think anyone is going to have a different opinion just because they watch this interview or if they don't watch the interview.
KING: I said Ron Goldman. Of course, it's Fred Goldman who has the Web site. Do you think there's a chance, Tom, that they'll pull it?
LANGE: I don't know. I think it's going to go because we're giving them an awful lot of publicity here.
KING: Tonight?
LANGE: Not just tonight but for the last week, and this is going to go on now for about the next 10 or 12 days. It hasn't slowed down. There's going to be a lot of publicity, and I definitely think it'll go.
KING: We have a dilemma, Chris, as the media. You know that. You've participated in media. What do we do? Do we not talk about it?
DARDEN: Well, no, I don't think we not talk about it. I mean, I think we have to talk about it. But at the same time, I think that there's a possibility that it will be pulled. I mean, there has to be some executive or executives over at Fox with a conscience. You know, Fox is just...
(CROSSTALK)
DARDEN: Fox is just down the street. You know, they watched the trial, like the rest of us. They know that this is wrong, that this is the wrong thing to do, to reward a double murderer. And I can only hope that somebody over there is going to, you know, pull this thing.
KING: All you need is Rupert Murdoch.
ALLRED: Well, I suppose he could make that decision. This is...
KING: Suppose...
ALLRED: This is November, though. This is sweeps month, which is an extremely important month to all broadcast media because a lot of their advertising rates are set by how many people watch their shows during this month. So that's why I think that it's in November and that's why I think it's unlikely it will be pulled.
LANGE: You talk about an outcry. There will be an outcry if they do pull it. That will be the only prediction I'll make for you.
KING: You going to watch it, Rosey?
GRIER: I don't know. I haven't decided. I usually don't watch a lot of things that I don't want to deal with.
KING: But this is someone you know, someone you visited.
GRIER: Yes, I know. But I don't know if I will or not. I probably will. Then I'll say that. I probably will.
KING: Read the book? Will you read the book?
GRIER: I don't know.
KING: Will you watch it, John?
KELLY: No. And you know what? I can guarantee you that the teases that have been put out there already, the little clips from the interview, are probably the only highlights of those two hours. Anybody who tunes in to this is going to be sorely disappointed and turn this off the first night after about 10 minutes. And I predict anybody who watches it the first 10 minutes will never turn it on for the second hour. It's going to be a colossal disappointment to everybody. The man rambles. It's going to be totally self-serving, whatever he says. And it's just -- you know, to insult the intelligence of the general public -- he's not going to be able to do it. It's a sham.
KING: Irvine, California. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My question is for Chris Darden.
KING: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did the prosecutors ever consider trying the murders separately, and therefore doubling their chances of a conviction?
DARDEN: No, no. It wouldn't have been prudent, and it would not have made a whole lot of sense in terms of the economics, the fact that both murders occurred simultaneously. It would have been a huge waste of resources.
KING: Are you going to watch it, Gloria?
ALLRED: I do believe I will watch it, yes, because I...
KING: Just for information?
ALLRED: Well, yes. For me, I always like to have all information so that I can make informed decisions and I can analyze and evaluate and come to conclusions. That's what I will do.
But I mean, I think it's up to everybody else. I wouldn't tell anybody else to watch it or not watch it. I wonder if his children will watch it. And I wonder he's going to think about the fact that his children might watch it or learn about it afterwards. And if he's going to talk about the blood of their mother, I mean, I hope that will have an impact on what they believe about their father.
KING: We'll be back with more, and more phone calls right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTOR: As office of the court, he has lied to this court. He's impeached by his own witness.
F. LEE BAILEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Your Honor, I ask that you put a stop to it!
CLARK: I'm stricken (ph) again by the preposterousness of the claims of the defense.
And now you're changing that testimony, is that what you're doing, sir?
KATO KAELIN, SIMPSON HOUSE GUEST: I -- yes.
DARDEN: The statements that you make about me, Mr. Cochran... (CROSSTALK)
JUDGE LANCE ITO: Wait, wait. I'm about to hold both of you in contempt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The interview that will shock the nation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You wrote, "I have never seen so much blood in my life."
SIMPSON: I don't believe any two people could have been murdered without everybody being covered in blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson, "If I Did It: Here's How It Happened."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. We'll get to your calls. By the way, you reminded us, he wrote another book, right, "I Want to Tell You."
ALLRED: Yes.
KING: When did that come out, a couple years ago?
LANGE: Oh, that came out right after the -- right after the trial. And you know, he didn't tell us anything then, and he's not going to tell us anything this time.
KING: Was "I Want to Tell You" a defense of what happened that night?
LANGE: No, it was just more blather. It was kind of -- kind of was and kind of wasn't, just O.J. blathering on.
ALLRED: I think what he did was, he published that -- and I talk about it in my book, "Fight Back and Win." I think he had that published right before the trial, so I think what he was doing, perhaps, was to try to affect the jury pool, to contaminate the potential jury pool by his self-serving statements in "I Want to Tell You." But maybe it affected them, maybe it didn't affect them, but I believe that's what he was trying to do.
KING: Philadelphia. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. Larry, I want to ask this question. Everyone on your panel who has made money on this case, have you donated all your profits to the Nicole Simpson Foundation?
KING: Rosey hasn't made any money on the case. Have you donated any of the money received for -- as an attorney?
ALLRED: I have not made any money on this case.
KING: You didn't charge your clients?
ALLRED: It was a pro bono effort. Having said that, however, I have supported their foundation over the years with contributions., the Nicole Brown Foundation which has worked to prevent domestic violence. And I just have only wonderful words to say about Lou and Juditha Brown and Denise and Dominique and Tanya (ph). And they have not only continued to fight against domestic violence and try to prevent this from happening to anyone else, but they have also continued to be loving family members to Sydney and Justin.
KING: Chris, have you made money off this?
DARDEN: Well, I wrote a book and I made some money off the book that I wrote, but I like to think that, you know, the money I made was not money from this case but money from, you know, four years of law school, four years of college and 15 years in a trial court.
KING: It's a fair question, though. Tom?
LANGE: Yes, I made money. We wrote a book, and quite frankly, it was the only way to get our story out. And I kind of laugh about that because if I had stayed on the police department one more year, I'd have made more as a cop in one year than I did on that whole book.
KING: But you didn't think of contributing funds, extra funds you had to...
LANGE: I did not contribute to that particular charity. I do have charities that I do contribute to.
KING: John Kelly?
KELLY: I've still got to write my book, Larry. So I don't know what to do with the money yet.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: How about fees you got in the civil case?
KELLY: That was a loss-leader. You know, that was -- that was -- I had a lot of it covered by the public, as a matter of fact. I certainly didn't profit from it. I loved doing it. I wouldn't have it any other way. And no, there was no profit there from that case. And as I said, when the book comes out, you can revisit me on it.
KING: Sudbury, Ontario. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Larry.
KING: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Does anyone on the panel know if the children think that their father did murder their mother?
KING: Rosey, do you think they know?
GRIER: We never talk -- wouldn't think of asking them.
KING: Chris?
DARDEN: I don't know if they know. But I know that during the trial, when I saw them, they knew who I was and what I did.
KING: Tom?
LANGE: I know that the family has sought and received some professional assistance along those lines. But specifics, I don't know.
KING: The story has been that, generally, he's been a good father, I mean, weird as it sounds, hasn't it he?
ALLRED: Well, I know that's what tries to say, but I don't...
KING: I mean, the kids are in college. They're doing all right.
ALLRED: Yes. I don't think a good father kills the mother of his children. I don't think a good father goes on television and writes a book about if he had done it, this is how he would have done it, he would have killed the mother of his children. So no, I don't think he's a good father.
And by the way, let's all recollect what has been public, which is that not that long ago Sydney had to call 911 because of her father. And so I am concerned about the future of those children and their well-being.
KING: John, do you think the kids know?
KELLY: Know what? I'm sorry, Larry.
KING: Do you think the kids know what their father did?
KELLY: Yes. Absolutely. I don't think they could live in that kind of sheltered life and not know. Whether they'll accept it or they're in a state of denial, I think they know what happened there. And you know, you've got to remember that for two years, these children in their most formative years lived with Lou and Judy. You know, they nurtured them. They sheltered them. They took care of them. And they've had a very close relationship with them, spending months at a time with them, you know, even during the summers and on vacations and things like that. And these are people that have really, really stabilized their lives and made them be able to grow into, you know, young adults and deal with these things.
KING: We'll take a break and come back with more, some more phone calls, intriguing, as we said earlier, story. Alec Baldwin Monday night. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simpson is a fugitive of justice right now.
KING: Police believe that O.J. Simpson is in that car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got to tell the police (INAUDIBLE) back off. He's still alive, but he's got a gun to his head!
KING: Now police radio is saying that Simpson has a gun at his head, police radio saying that Simpson, the passenger in the car, has gun at his head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) You know who I am, God damn it!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRED GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN'S FATHER: As sick a guy as he is, he is willing to put in a book and on air -- he's willing to tell the world how he would, quote, unquote, murder his children's mother and Ron. Sick!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. Let's go to Port Orange, Florida. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. O.J. is an egomaniac, and there's no doubt he was an abusive husband. But I watched the entire Simpson trial, and I for one believe he didn't do it. But don't your guests believe it's wrong to keep calling someone a killer when they were legally found not guilty? And isn't the criteria for evidence different in a civil trial?
KING: That is true, right, Gloria?
ALLRED: Yes, I shouldn't...
KING: The criteria is different.
ALLRED: Right. I shouldn't call him a killer. I should call him a double killer because he killed two human beings.
KING: No, but her point is...
ALLRED: Yes.
KING: ... he was found not guilty.
ALLRED: Yes.
KING: And the kind of things you can introduce in a civil trial is not what you can introduce in a criminal trial
ALLRED: Yes. I would say, technically, it would not be correct to call him a murderer because he was acquitted in a criminal case, but it would be correct to call him a killer because he was found liable for the wrongful deaths of Nicole and Ron and...
KING: Is that what the verdict -- John, is that the verdict in the civil case, liable for the wrongful death?
KELLY: Responsible -- by clear and convincing evidence, that he was responsible for the deaths of both Ron Goldman and Nicole. So no question about it, the evidence was overwhelming. I think it's entirely appropriate to call him a double killer.
KING: Rosey, why aren't you convinced?
GRIER: Because I looked at the evidence also, and I didn't see this preponderance of evidence that they all talked about. And so you know, I don't think like that. And I can't believe what I'm hearing across the country that many people that are -- like Gloria keep calling him a double murderer. You know, I don't think that's a great thing -- a way to live her life that way, doing that, because this is a human being also. And realizing that people will kill -- but then he went before his peers, as I said earlier, and he was not guilty.
KING: You speak as minister, though. And maybe she says she shouldn't call him a murderer.
GRIER: I pray for her.
ALLRED: Just a double killer. Oh, I should also add, and a batter of a woman and a person who is not believed when he testifies under oath in a court of law.
GRIER: And the bible says, "Judge ye not, lest you should be judged."
KING: True.
ALLRED: Well, but we have a system of justice, and the jury is there to make a legal judgment. And they made that legal judgment.
GRIER: Right, not-...
ALLRED: And you know, sometimes, when you're close to a person, you don't really want to believe that they would do something terrible. But he killed two human beings, and these are the facts, man, nothing but the facts.
KING: Was there ever a time, Tom, in the trial where you questioned his guilt?
LANGE: Initially, I did. That's just my style. I look for the so-called exculpatory evidence in any case because it's only going to strengthen an investigation. The more we get into this, the more was uncovered, the more I realized that he, in fact, was the suspect. Rosey alluded to the evidence. I can't understand -- the only blood in this case comes from the two victims and O.J. That's in his home. That's at the scene. And that's in his car.
KING: Did you ever doubt the guilt, Chris? DARDEN: Well, yes. And before I -- before I took on the responsibility of the case, I looked at the evidence because I didn't want to participate in a witch hunt of an icon in my community. And you know, I took a look at it. And I was convinced from the very first day I stepped into the courtroom.
KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments on this edition of "LARRY KING LIVE." Stay there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On June 13, 1994, at approximately 10 minutes after midnight, a witness discovered the body of Nicole Brown Simpson, 25 years of age, lying on the walkway leading to her residence located at 875 South Bundy Drive in the Brentwood district of west Los Angeles area. The Los Angeles Police Department was notified. And investigation was conducted by responding officers that revealed the presence of a second body, an individual who has now been identified as Mr. Ronald Goldman, 25 years of age.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLDMAN: I take this as nothing more than him stating what he did and maybe with a few changes of what he would have done if he hadn't been caught.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back. Let's get another call in. Dedham, Massachusetts. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. This question is for Rosey.
KING: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rosey, being O.J.'s spiritual adviser, wouldn't you have advised him to tell the truth, knowing the truth will set you free and that God would forgive him if he did do this?
GRIER: I saw no need to do that, for me to tell him to confess something he said he didn't do.
KING: So -- yes, what's the sense of telling someone to say...
GRIER: Confess to something he said he didn't do.
KING: What's going to happen, Chris? Where does this go?
DARDEN: Well, I don't know where it goes, but wherever it goes, it just keeps on going, doesn't it?
(LAUGHTER)
DARDEN: I mean, it's been 12 years, and we continue to have to revisit these issues and relive this case. I just hope Fox will cancel the show. And I wouldn't ask anybody to put the book on the Internet so that people would have free access to it, although I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea.
KING: Tom, where is it going to go?
LANGE: It's going to continue for as long as we're around. And I think the reason for that is most people see that there's really no closure for them. Any time there's a not guilty verdict with all of this evidence and 90 percent of people believe he did it, you're going to have all of these problems. People are going to be screaming and hollering for years to come.
KING: Show's going to be a hit?
LANGE: A hit? I think a lot of people are going to watch it. And I agree with John, they're going to be very disappointed. I don't know if it's going to be a hit.
KING: What do you think, Gloria?
ALLRED: Well, do I think he'll really confess? I think suggesting that he will confess assumes that maybe he even has a conscience. But if he had a conscience, how could he have killed Nicole and Ron? I don't think there's anything that's happened since 1994 which shows us that there is a changed O.J. Simpson, so I don't expect a true confession, at this point.
KING: Will the show be a hit?
ALLRED: I think that many people will watch it, and I think that they will have a big ratings bonanza from it.
KING: Will the book sell?
ALLRED: I'm not so sure about whether people will buy the book.
KING: And finally, John, what do you think?
KELLY: Put an end to this. Fox should pull both hour interviews. Nobody should buy the book, and nobody, absolutely nobody should have any doubt that Mr. Simpson committed those two murders.
KING: If they don't do it, will the shows be successful, John?
KELLY: I don't think so. I think you're going to see a dramatic drop from the first hour to the second. And if it goes on the air, I think they're going to have problems even with sponsorship and viewership the first night.
KING: And what about the book?
KELLY: I think the book's going to be a bomb. And if for some reason Regan paid anything close to that, she's going to say -- I shouldn't say lose her shirt, but she's going to take a bath on that part of it, too, as well she should. Thank you all very much -- Reverend Rosey Grier, Chris Darden, Tom Lange, Gloria Allred and John Q. Kelly.
That's it for this edition of "LARRY KING LIVE." We'll have major shows for you over the weekend, repeat programs, including Judge Judy, and lots of other highlights, as well. And Monday night, back live with Alec Baldwin.
Right now, stay tuned for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."
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