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Student May Have been Responsible for Bus Crash; Iraq, Syria Sign Agreement for Border Security; Anti-Syrian Politician Gunned Down in Lebanon; American Cars Get Poor Marks on Safety Tests

Aired November 21, 2006 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kyra Phillips, at the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta.
DON LEMON, CO-HOST: And I'm Don Lemon.

No air bags, no seatbelts, a 30-foot plunge. Now three students are dead. Clues from the scene point to a car driven by a fellow student. We're live in Alabama.

PHILLIPS: He fired off the "N" word at an Audience expecting jokes. Michael Richards apologizes, but does the "S" word cut it? The damage done and a frank talk about race from the NEWSROOM.

LEMON: And eyewitnesses to genocide. Just back from Darfur, actress and crusader Mia Farrow joins us.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And we start today with a developing story. A city in shock, a slew of questions one day after a school bus takes a deadly plunge. We're waiting for a press conference from the NTSB in Huntsville, Alabama.

Let's join CNN's Rusty Dornin. She's there now -- Rusty.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was just after 10 a.m. Monday morning. Forty-three students from Lee High School were taking the bus to the local technical center for classes. A witness told police as the bus crossed the overpass, a small car seemed to swerve towards it.

CHIEF REX REYNOLDS, HUNTSVILLE POLICE: The car may have come close to and/or struck the bus, causing the bus to strike the rail and ultimately, leave the elevated parkway, the interstate.

DORNIN: Police now say the car was driven by another high school student, but it's still unclear whether the car hit the bus. The bus plummeted 30 feet and crashed onto the street below.

Three teenage girls died in the crash. Several suffered serious injuries. Some had to be pulled from the front portion of the crashed vehicle. LAWANDA JEFFERSON, SCHOOL BUS ACCIDENT VICTIM: They was (sic) bleeding real bad and couldn't walk, and they had blood everywhere on them.

DORNIN: Lawanda Jefferson was battered and bruised, but she was alive.

JEFFERSON: I hope they get much better, and I'm sorry for the ones that just died and hope they (sic) family take it OK.

DORNIN: The families were frantic following news of the crash, desperate to find out if their children were on the bus or what their condition was. Many survivors were conscious when they arrived at the hospital, but not coherent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were many who were not able to tell us who they were, and they had no means of identification on them.

DORNIN: A freak accident in a tight-knit community, something people here are having a hard time getting their arms around.

KEITH WARD, MADISON COUNTY SCHOOLS: It just reaches down and clutches your heart, and you just -- you're in shock. You want to cry. You just don't know what you can do to make that pain go away, because you know it's not going away.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DORNIN: Now, at the center of all of this is the cause of the crash. Is this orange Celica, believed driven by a 17-year-old high school boy, that swerved and hit the bus?

But let's take you on a tour of what they believe happened. You can see a part of that concrete, that it was taken out by the bus when it first hit the barrier. The bus careened 117 feet. Those kids knew for that long they were likely to go over the side. Then they plunged 30 feet down the side. But the bus driver was up on the overpass.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE HERSMAN, NTSB SPOKESWOMAN: All we know is at this point is that the bus driver was found on the top of the overpass and was transported to the hospital from there.

We will be trying to document the scene. We looked at some signs up on the overpass of what might have happened to the bus driver. But we need to examine the seating compartment, the seat belt, to see if there was any damage, things like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: NTSB investigators are about ready to start a press conference at any moment where they're going to talking about some of these issues. Now they're going to try to talk to that bus driver today. They were not able to before. But they believe somehow he was ejected or climbed out of the bus before it went over. They're also going to be talking to that 17-year-old driver of the Celica, who apparently had a passenger in the car. They told investigators that something happened to the car; it went out of control.

Now, the car did have, as you can see in this photograph, there are two front tires that are flat. Now, whether that was the cause of the crash or it happened later, they're not sure. But they may be talking about that in the press conference that's about to start -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Rusty. We'll get to that just as soon as it happens. Thank you so much for that report.

PHILLIPS: Well, Atlantic City on edge a day after a gruesome discovery. Police found the bodies of four women in a ditch on the gambling Mecca's outskirts. No word on the causes of death, but autopsies are being done.

The women were all face down in shallow water just a few hundred feet from the Atlantic City visitor's welcome center. Locals say the area's known for drugs and prostitution.

LEMON: Two old power brokers in Lebanon become new players in the fight for Iraq. Syria and Iran sharing much more than a border with their neighbor.

Here's CNN's Arwa Damon in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An historic moment for both countries, Syria and Iraq signing an agreement to restore diplomatic ties, which had been severed since 1982, after Syria sided with Iran during the Iran/Iraq war.

Foreign minister Walid al-Muallim was in Iraq for a two-day visit, during which he met with his Iraqi counterpart, Hoshiyar Zebari, as well as Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. The main topic of conversation was the violence and trying to secure the Iran/Iraq border.

Both the U.S. and Iraq have long accused Syria of allowing foreign fighters, as well as weapons and funds to the insurgency, to come across its border with Iraq. Now both countries pledging to work together.

Meanwhile, Iraqi President Jalal Talabani is due to travel to Tehran this weekend for meetings with Iranian President Ahmadinejad. Iraq has a very tricky and complex relationship with its neighbor, Iran.

The U.S. believes, both on a military and on a political level, that Iran is directly responsible for funding, training and arming death squads are and militias that operate in Iraq, blamed for much of the sectarian violence here. Both British and American intelligence indicates that Iran wants to create a stable but weak Iraq that it can have a certain element of control over.

The Iraqi government, though, does maintain a close relationship with Iran, which in the eyes of many American officials, as well as many Sunnis in Iraq and secular Shias, is categorized as being uncomfortably close.

The Iraqi prime minister himself, Nuri al-Maliki, spent a significant time in Iran when he was exiled from Iraq.

The search for a missing soldier kidnapped on October 23 continues. Iraqi special forces, backed by coalition advisers, launched a raid into the Mehdi militia stronghold of Sadr City today. The raid netted their target, an insurgent who is reported to have intelligence that could lead to the whereabouts of this soldier.

But the firefight that broke out and the U.S. air strike resulted in at least five civilian deaths and another 19 wounded. That according to Iraqi emergency police.

Raids have been quite a frequent occurrence into Sadr City, enraging both residents there and some members of the Iraqi government. We also heard from one member of the Iraqi government who is a member of Muqtada al-Sadr's bloc, speaking out and denouncing the raid, saying that he will resign from parliament until the government can guarantee that such actions will no longer take place.

Arwa Damon, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: The assassination in Lebanon. We're following a developing story out of Beirut. A prominent anti-Syrian politician gunned down in the street.

Let's get straight to our Beirut bureau chief, Brent Sadler.

Brent, what type of impact will this assassination have on the stability in Lebanon?

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, I certainly think a very negative impact, the reverberations of this latest assassination of a high-profile political member of parliament here, part of the so- called anti-Syrian parliamentary bloc here, certainly will have a negative impact.

Even though there are attempts going on right now, including an appeal by the father of the slain politician, for calm, for no confrontation, no revenge in the wake of this assassination.

Now this killing, the fifth of a senior member within the political establishment here, essentially opposed to Syria, being killed in the last two years. It began with Rafik Hariri, the assassinated former Lebanese prime minister, killed just over 20 months ago. Others followed in the political sphere, as well as the media, as well, also came under attack. It's been blamed heavily on Syria. Syria has consistently denied it, saying there's no proof of Syrian involvement. Yet the anti- Syrian politicians here say this attack has to be seen in the context, they allege, of an international tribunal that's being set up by the United Nations to try suspected killers of Rafik Hariri and attacks on others over the past two years.

This, they say, this killing, in parallel with the others, and other acts of destabilization here in more recent weeks -- let's move on with that (ph) -- is part of an attempt to derail that process and, therefore, to protect Syria. Because Syria has allegedly been involved with top Syrian officials and pro-Syrian Lebanese security officials in that original Hariri assassination.

Complicated, but that essentially is what is at stake here, amid a political meltdown, and the government of Prime Minister Fouad Siniora under attack politically. And now it seems violently with the assassination of one of its crucially important cabinet ministers -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Brent Sadler in Beirut, thanks, Brent.

Well, a senior U.S. diplomat is not accusing Syria of the assassination, at least not directly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Well, you can't say for certain, but it's an interesting coincidence eight of the last political assassinations in Lebanon have all been conducted against anti-Syrian politicians. One can follow the logic there, I think.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Can't stay, can't go. That's Kofi Annan's take on the U.S. presence in Iraq. The outgoing U.N. secretary-general says America is, quote, "trapped in a war that could have been avoided."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: On the question of regret, I still have to say, is the war in Iraq and that debate and the discussions that took place in the consul could not have helped us stop the war. I firmly believe that the war could have been avoided and the inspectors should have had a bit more time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Let's go now to that press conference in Huntsville, Alabama, regarding that bus crash. Let's listen in.

HERSMAN: We do comprehensive information about the drivers. Both the school bus driver, as well as the driver of the passenger vehicle. We'll be collecting records and information on those two drivers. They're going to be looking to see if there were any traffic cameras, any ATM or bank cameras, anything else that might have been in the vicinity of the accident that might have recorded what happened.

They're going to be interviewing any passengers on the bus and the driver that might still be hospitalized. And of course, those interviews are subject to the health and the availability of the -- of the interviewees. We're trying to schedule those as soon as possible.

Also, if any passengers were released from the hospital, we'll also be attempting to interview those individuals.

We're looking at talking to the first responders who were on scene to look at the response operation. We have collected dispatch logs. And we're looking to put together the 911 tapes and any other information that might tell us about the response.

The NTSB traditionally looks at all phases of the accident, both pre-accident, crash and post-accident activities.

We're going to be looking at the community's mass casualty plan. We are also, as standard procedure, toxicology samples are taken from the operators. And we're looking at those samples. And those will be tested in accordance with procedures. And this is standard procedure for any transportation accident that we investigate.

In interviewing the passengers, we're trying to put together a seating chart to determine where individuals might have been sitting on the bus. We're looking at documenting injuries. Injury causation is of particular interest to us. The kinematics, how the occupants moved around in the vehicle during the accident sequence.

And a number of these activities will take some time. We're going to try to do as much as we can today, but we will continue our work on scene until it is completed.

We established parties to our investigation this morning during our organizational meeting. The Huntsville Police Department, Huntsville Fire Department, the emergency communications 911 operation, Alabama state troopers, the mayor's office, and city of Huntsville, the Department of Transportation and the Office of Emergency Management all requested party status, and all of those entities are assisting us with our investigation.

LEMON: And you're listening to a press conference. That's Debbie Hersman of the NTSB talking about that horrible, horrible bus crash yesterday in Huntsville, Alabama, that killed three people, three teenage girls and injuring at least two dozen other students.

Just talking about generally what happens in the investigation like this, what the NTSB does, saying they're going to collect records from the bus driver, from the car driver, that may possibly have caused this.

Also looking at security cameras videos, ATM video, just to check it out, and also collecting some departmental logs and 911 tapes and seating charts, and all of that stuff. So they're trying to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. And that's where their investigation, at least NTSB's part of it, is starting -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Straight ahead, playing it safe on the highway? Don't buy American. U.S. automakers are shut out of top safety rankings.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Will changes in the Middle East mean changes in the U.S. battle plan? Let's get the Pentagon -- Pentagon perspective from our Jamie McIntyre.

Jamie, what does all this mean for the U.S. military in Iraq now?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the -- this interesting dynamic going on now with Iran inviting its -- the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, inviting his Syrian and Iraqi counterparts for a summit, to see if they can get a handle on the violence in Iraq.

Both Iran and Syria, of course, are neighbors of Iraq and are both countries that the United States has blamed for instigating, fomenting and supporting the violence in Iraq, both with foreign fighters crossing the border and with funding.

Recently Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld referred to both countries as being, quote, "decidedly unhelpful."

But now the State Department is saying that Iraq has the right, obviously, to meet with its neighbors. It wants Iraq to be on good terms with its neighbors. And Undersecretary of State Nick Burns today essentially said the proof will be in what actions result from this meeting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLAS BURNS, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: We would obviously want to see an improvement of relations between Iran and Syria with Iraq. But probably more importantly, we want to see Iran and Syria be good neighbors.

Right now, the Syrian government permits people, insurgent fighters, to cross its border, to go into Iraq to kill American soldiers and to kill Iraqis. That ought to stop. The Iranian government, we believe, has given assistance, material and otherwise, to Shia insurgent groups attacking Sunni Iraqis and also attacking American and British forces. That has to stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: This diplomatic gambit follows a meeting in Baghdad by the Syrian foreign minister and Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, as Syria and Iraq resume the diplomatic relations as of today. Another effort to get a handle on the violence in the country.

But the U.S. also sees this as an effort by Iran to assert its influence in the region, to essentially tell Iraq that while the United States cannot provide for its security, perhaps Iran can be much more of a player in that area. So there's a bit of one- upsmanship going on here, as Iran is trying to assert its influence in the region, as well -- Don.

LEMON: All right. Jamie McIntyre, thank you.

PHILLIPS: What's it take to make the insurance industry's list of safest new vehicles? Here's a hint. American models don't have it.

CNN's Susan Candiotti is in Charlottesville, Virginia, with a look at the safest cars and the also-rans.

Hey, Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra.

We're at the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. And there are tests going on here all the time. A test was conducted here not long ago. And I'll tell you more about it in just a few minutes.

But first, I wanted to give you those top safety picks. There are 13 of them for the year 2007. They have a couple things in common.

One, all of them have something called electronic stability control. That was a requirement. And they also had to have the proper head and neck restraints. None of these cars is made by a U.S. manufacturer.

Here is the list. Let's take a look at it.

No. 1, you've got the Audi A6. That's a large car. Midsize cars, there are three of them: the Audi A4, the Saab 9-3 and the Subaru Legacy. Minivans, two of them: the Hyundai Entourage and the Kia Sedona. Two luxury SUVs: the Mercedes M Class and the Volvo XC90. Three midsized SUVs: the Acura RDX, the Honda Pilot and the Subaru B9 Tribeca. And there are two small SUVs: the Honda CR-V and the Subaru Forester.

Now let me tell you a little bit about tests that happened here just a short time ago. That involved what they call mini cars. I want you to take a look at this. It involves a side car impact collision. Take a look.

And joining us now to talk more about that is one of the engineers here at the Insurance Institute, David Zuby.

Tell us first of all what we're looking at. This is meant to simulate the crash barrier, right?

DAVID ZUBY, CAR SAFETY ENGINEER: That's right. This is the moving deformable barrier, and it's designed so that the front of it represents the front of an SUV or pickup truck.

CANDIOTTI: And we still have some of the glass here...

ZUBY: That's some of the glass from that 2007 Nissan Versa that we just crashed into it at 31 miles an hour.

CANDIOTTI: This is a high grill, and it comes up against this car. And you want it this high to show what over here?

ZUBY: Right. By being that high, if the vehicle was not equipped with an air bag curtain like this one is, then the occupant's heads, the dummy's heads, would be in direct threat of contacting the front of the barrier, which is a very severe way of suffering a skull fracture and occurs in many side impact crashes without these types of devices.

CANDIOTTI: And how did this car do? We're looking here at this pillar, for example, as well as the air bags.

ZUBY: Well, the structure of this car held up pretty good. It's not the best we've seen. But it's pretty good. And the air bags deployed in time to protect both dummies' heads, and the initial readings from the dummies' sensors suggest that their -- the only possible concern will be slightly high forces on the dummy's pelvis and torso in the driver's seat but not enough for a serious downgrade.

CANDIOTTI: So you could have survived this crash?

ZUBY: Yes, likely, we would expect both the driver and rear passenger to survive this crash.

CANDIOTTI: There are two dummies. There's the other dummy here, sitting in the back seat. So with some of this glass, you have to be careful back here. But this dummy made out all right, too.

So what will happen with the results of this study? And again, this was not part of the top safety pick test, but this study goes where?

ZUBY: OK, this test itself is not part of the top safety picks, but all of the top safety pick vehicles did go through this test. OK? This vehicle's results will be published, along with results from other cars in the same class, later in December.

CANDIOTTI: Later in December?

ZUBY: That's right.

CANDIOTTI: All right. And how soon will it be before all U.S. cars have to have that ESC, the electric stability control, which I take it this car doesn't have?

ZUBY: Well, the government recently published a rule that will require manufacturers to have it very soon, within several years. We expect that vehicle manufacturers will beat the regulatory guide -- deadline.

CANDIOTTI: Dave, thanks very much for joining us, an engineer here at the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Susan Candiotti, thanks so much.

LEMON: Well, he says he's deeply, deeply sorry. But after Michael Richards unleashed the "N" word, well, the "S" word may not be enough. We're watching our language, and everyone else is, right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Well, you may need to quash squash from your Thanksgiving menu. A recall is in effect for 12-ounce cartons of frozen winter squash that were tainted with ammonia.

The recalled packages were sold under several different store brands with codes that begin with FCF -- or sorry, 5CF, 5JE or 6JEs. So check those cartons. And if the codes match up, you can take them back to where you bought them for a refund.

LEMON: Well, the holiday shopping season gets into full swing later this week. But a new survey shows that many shoppers are likely to pinch pennies this year. I thought everybody wanted to save some money.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

PHILLIPS: We're going to get straight to the newsroom now. T.J. Holmes is working the details on a developing story -- T.J.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, more bad news really here. Hate to hear this, out of the bus accident in Huntsville, Alabama yesterday. It plunged off an interstate. Now getting word that a fourth teenager has been killed, has died now after that Alabama school bus crash. We heard from the police chief, Rex Reynolds, just a moment ago. Here's what he had to say in a press conference just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF REX REYNOLDS, HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA POLICE: Unfortunately, we have just received word from Huntsville Hospital that our fourth victim has died as a result of injuries in the accident. The fourth victim is identified as black female, Crystal Renee McCrary. And she was 17 years old.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: All right, there you have it, Crystal Renee McCrary, 17 years old, one of four now confirmed that have died in that bus accident. Again, another two dozen or so students injured after that bus accident. Again, falling off that overpass we were covering yesterday.

A lot of investigation, a lot more to learn from this. But unfortunately, a fourth has died. And still keeping an eye on the conditions of the other two dozen or so, many of them still in the hospital, and their conditions right now. But some more sad news out of that accident out of Huntsville yesterday -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, we'll continue to follow the investigation. T.J., thanks.

Well, straight head, he says he's deeply, deeply sorry. But after Michael Richards unleashed the 'n' word, the 's' word may not be enough. We're watching our language, at least trying to, and everyone else's, coming up next in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: For years, he was simply known as Kramer, one of the funniest characters on television. But with an explosively racist tirade at an L.A. comedy club Friday night, Michael Richards put his lovable persona to rest, maybe forever. But last night, he appeared on David Letterman's show with former costar Jerry Seinfeld and he apologized.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JERRY SEINFELD, COMEDIAN: He is extremely upset about it and I asked him if he would come on the show tonight so that he could explain what happened because it was just one of those awful, awful things. And I think he's a little mystified about what happened, but I think most importantly, he wanted to ...

DAVID LETTERMAN, LATE NIGHT HOST: We have him live via satellite from Los Angeles, so this should be Michael Richards. Are you there?

MICHAEL RICHARDS, COMEDIAN: Yes, I'm right here.

LETTERMAN: Hi Michael, welcome to the show.

RICHARDS: Hello. Hi.

LETTERMAN: How you doing?

RICHARDS: I'm not doing too good.

LETTERMAN: Why don't you explain exactly what happened for the folks who may not know?

RICHARDS: I, I lost my temper on stage. I was at a comedy club trying to do my act, and I got heckled, and I, I took it badly and went into a rage. And -- said some pretty nasty things to some Afro- Americans about a trash talk, and --

SEINFELD: Stop laughing. It's not funny.

RICHARDS: I'm really busted up over this and I'm very, very sorry to those people in the audience, the blacks, the Hispanics, whites, everyone that was there that took the brunt of that anger and, and hate and rage and how it came through. And I'm concerned about more hate and more rage and more anger coming through.

I went out there, I tried, I went out there and I did talk to some people. I even went back to the club that night to get back on the stage, and to work, to get back on the horse, as they say. And I, I -- I did. I apologized to quite a few people. But I, I didn't -- I didn't talk to all of -- everyone. They left. And I don't know how to get in touch with those people.

And then, of course, they've gone to press, as I think they should. The fact that there's that kind of solidarity and confronting that kind of -- those kinds of remarks, I think, it's important for the Afro-American community to make sure this kind of crap doesn't -- doesn't come about. I'm, I'm sorry that it happened.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Well, many who were appalled before are still appalled, apology or no. Joining me from the Laugh Factory in Los Angeles, where Richards is no longer welcome, comedian Paul Mooney. And from Chicago, radio talk show host Roland Martin. He's also executive editor of "The Chicago Defender."

We just lost Paul. We had an IFB connection issue. We're getting that hooked up, Roland.

Paul, can you hear us now?

PAUL MOONEY, COMEDIAN: Yes.

PHILLIPS: OK, good. I've got you both. I was watching it from off there on the camera, I saw that you got hooked in. You heard the whole apology on Letterman, right, Paul?

MOONEY: Yes.

PHILLIPS: OK. And, Roland, you heard it, too.

ROLAND MARTIN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes, I did.

PHILLIPS: Let's start with you, Paul. Your reaction to the apology?

MOONEY: Weak.

PHILLIPS: Why weak?

MOONEY: It's not enough, because it doesn't match what he did. I saw the video. I think on David Letterman's show, they should have showed the video. They should have showed it in freeze frame and went step by step. That would have been good therapy for him, because he was like a raving maniac, and he had a complete nervous breakdown on stage. He outed himself. I think that's really his feelings.

PHILLIPS: So...

MOONEY: He said it on stage, now you know how I feel.

PHILLIPS: Interesting. So, Paul, you don't think he got kind of caught up -- you know as a comedian, you get into your schtick. MOONEY: Yes, he didn't get caught up, no.

PHILLIPS: OK, this was the real deal?

MOONEY: You don't do that. If you're going to be funny, you're funny, racially or otherwise. You have a punch line and you deal with the situation right there, right then. You don't walk off stage. You don't do that and leave the audience. The audience is the -- I mean, come on, we're needy. Comedians are needy. We need that love. That's who you love. You don't walk away from people you love.

PHILLIPS: Roland, your reaction?

MARTIN: Kyra, Paul is correct when he says it was a weak apology. First and foremost, the "Letterman" show was the wrong forum for that kind of apology. He was not going to get the kind of questioning that he needed. If you heard the audience, they were laughing. They weren't quite sure whether to laugh at what he was saying, to be serious. And it was Seinfeld who had to say, hey, guys this isn't funny.

Not only that. Another piece is when you really examine what he said, he not only said 50 years ago we'd have you hanging upside down from a tree. Well, guess what, 50 years ago, Michael Richards would have been in some oven in Germany being baked because he's also Jewish. He also said that in his comments, that I'm a white man. I can go get the cops and have you arrested. And so, his comments went beyond that.

But Kyra, we're also making a very big mistake. He has said -- he said, he was heckled. In fact, the people who were there say he was not heckled. There was a large group that was talking. He was angered by them talking. Then after he addressed them, then a couple of the guys said, hey, my boy doesn't think you're funny. Darryl Pitts, who is from Chicago, who was on CNN on Sunday, he gave an eye- witness account. And so, trying to say, well he was being heckled when in fact he wasn't. He was angered because they were talking.

PHILLIPS: All right. Just to step aside for a second, I want to ask you about the 'N' word for a minute. Paul, I remember ...

(CROSSTALK)

MOONEY: Can I say something before you say this. Excuse me. He's not a Jew. He's not a Jew.

MARTIN: OK.

He's either Catholic or atheist or something. He's not that. And as far as blacks and Jews are concerned, I don't think that two men in a burning house have time to argue. That's my point.

MARTIN: I agree.

MOONEY: So he's not a Jew. So people make that mistake. He may look it, but looks are deceiving. Bush looks like he's sane, but anyway go ahead, ask what ...

PHILLIPS All right. I knew Paul had to get something in there. I was waiting for the ...

MOONEY: Of course.

PHILLIPS: all right, hold on. We'll step aside from that for a minute. I'm seeing two issues here. I want to get back to the 'N' word in just a second. But, let's get back to the anger part. Let's start with this. Sinbad talked about the issue, about what Michael Richards should do. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SINBAD, COMEDIAN: That was the worst apology I've ever seen. That apology was a piece of trash. You can't go on Letterman. That's the punk way out. You can't go on Letterman. You have to go to the heart of the people. You have to go to the club. You've got to go up there on black night, Sunday night, it's chocolate city night at the comedy club. You got to walk up there. You got to face that audience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Paul is that what he needs to do? Does he need to go into the black communities, the black clubs, and say, all right, look, this ...

MOONEY: For me, he should go on Oprah. Oprah will get him through it. He should go on Oprah. St. Oprah, St. Oprah will help him. But, look what he should do -- look, I'm an opportunist. I've already wrote a movie for O.J., Michael, and Mel Gibson. Three crazy men and thank god there's no baby. But anyway, look.

(LAUGHTER)

MOONEY: Look, I've known him for 30 years. What he has to do for me, he has to go to the Apollo. He has to perform at an Apollo audience. If he gets through that with the same act, then I'll forgive him. Or he has to go to Africa and adopt a black baby.

PHILLIPS: OK, hold on. He's not going to go to Malawi any time soon, but seriously ...

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Kyra, your question is a valid question. That is, whether it's Radio 1, whether it's BET, whether it's TV 1 Cable network, in terms of speaking directly to African-Americans. Because, again, when Mel Gibson made his comments, which were not recorded, the Jewish community came down hard on Mel, said, you need to go to a temple, you need to get training, you need to get education. And even in his comments last night on Lebanon, he talked about what was buried inside of him and that's what the real deal is.

This is a country where racism is at the heart, it's in our DNA, and we try to suppress those feelings. So, what you saw was the real feelings of Richards coming out and he could not control those feelings. And so he was able to suppress them for all that time. He has to deal with that issue. That's his real problem.

PHILLIPS: Well, now, Roland, Paul, you said you've known him for 30 years, has Michael Richards ever made any racist comments to you? have you ever gotten the vibe he doesn't like black people?

MOONEY: No, no, no. Hey, look, he tricked me. I'm going to tell you something. I want him to go to Watts at midnight and look at the tower and wear red. If he survives that he can come back and talk to me.

PHILLIPS: You know, I'm glad you're finding humor to deal with this because in a way you have to use humor to deal with this. But now Paul, let me ask ...

MOONEY: I hear, I hear that -- wait, I hear that Mel is studying to be a rabbi so I'm happy for everybody. Go ahead.

PHILLIPS: Roland, I'm glad Paul -- if anything this has given Paul more fodder for his next stand-up gig.

MOONEY: I love -- I love every minute of this.

PHILLIPS: Now, Paul, you were one of the first, you, if I remember correctly, you were one of the first, or at least the first comedian, to use the 'N' word and I remember seeing you live and you made black people squirm and you made white people squirm. Now obviously you weren't screaming it in an angry way, but you brought the word out. Tell me why you did that and do you regret doing that?

MOONEY: No, because I've been called it enough. Where were you when it hurt my feelings when I was a kid. I'm from the south, I was called it enough when I was naive. The first time I saw a sign that said for white only I thought they only rented the rooms to nurses and doctors.

PHILLIPS: Roland...

MOONEY: Because they wear white. I was naive. But I have an experience with the word. Listen, when you get into talking about the 'N' word, you're in shark-infested waters. So, don't be surprised when the shark gets you. First of all, look, I saw Lenny Bruce being taken out a nightclub in San Francisco because he was talking about race, in handcuffs -- OK. But he was political and he made points. If you're going to talk about racism and the 'N' word, you'd better have a punchline, you'd better be funny.

PHILLIPS: Roland, do you agree? I mean, it's a disgusting word. mean do you really think -- is it OK for black people to say the 'N' word?

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Roland, Paul, I'll let you come back. MARTIN: At "Chicago Defender," we did a cover story on this when it comes to removing the 'N' word from our vocabulary. The reality is it is there. It was not created by the African-Americans. There is a problem when African-Americans are embracing of the word and saying that it is now something that is not a nice word. But the fact of the mater is this here -- we also must be honest that within certain groups, certain words are said to one another that they say as a group. There are certain words that women can call one another and if a man says it, they look at him differently.

There are certain words that Jews call one another, Hispanics call one another, Asians call one another that within their group it is okay. But outside of that group, then it's a problem. That has to be dealt with because we can't act as if it doesn't happen in certain cultures in certain groups.

PHILLIPS: You know, it's fascinating, Roland, you talk about this very much from an intellectual perspective and Paul, you do, too, but, Paul, what's interesting about you, is you've taken racism and you have incorporated it into humor. And that's a pretty difficult thing to do. How do you think you ...

MOONEY: Well, it's a difficult thing to do but laughter is a cure-all and you better have a punch line.

MARTIN: Yes.

MOONEY: Let me tell you something, I was on CNN once and they were asking me about when white people say the 'N' word it doesn't offend you and then they asked me why and I said because I like a little salt on my cracker. As long as you can keep the humor in there it's OK.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: First of all, Paul is correct because the reality is we use comedy to mask our real issues. When Chris Rock was on stage when he said the greatest moment in black history was the Million Man March and Marion Barry was there -- we had a crackhead on stage. Everybody cracked up laughing. But, there are issues that we talk about in our everyday life and behind closed doors. And that's what comedy does. he fact of the matter is for Richards, he simply, he veered away from comedy. That was a personal rant that he went on. And so, that was a lot different than an actual comedy sketch ...

MOONEY: But it was a nervous breakdown. The boy had a nervous breakdown.

MARTIN: He lost it, absolutely.

MOONEY: This wasn't comedy.

PHILLIPS: It will be interesting to see where he goes forward from here. Does he take anger management? Does he come forward with some sort testimony? Does he check into rehab? It will be interesting to follow up. But both of you, fantastic perspectives. And Paul, you know, Roland calls me white chocolate, is that OK?

MOONEY: What? Oh, you're the black-white lady, I like that. You can be the black-white lady.

PHILLIPS: Paul Mooney. All right, outstanding. Paul, Roland, thanks, guys.

MARTIN: Thanks, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right.

LEMON: And all of this, of course, fodder for the Thanksgiving table. And getting there is going to be half the fun, right? Clearly, the person who coined that saying never left home for Thanksgiving. Before you stuff that suitcase, let the NEWSROOM dish up your holiday travel forecast. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Oh, it's about to get even more crowded in the airport, on the highways. Will the weather help or hinder your holiday travels? Let's hope it helps. I was just in the airport this morning and the lines are already starting to build. Jacqui Jeras in the Weather Center, how about it, Jacqui?

(WEATHER REPORT)

LEMON: We want to tell you this, more on holiday travels straight ahead in the NEWSROOM. We expect a briefing by the head of the Federal Aviation Administration. Live coverage right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: His hits were huge and many. And so were his flops. Hollywood loved him and trashed him, ignored him and embraced him. And it was mutual: Robert Altman would go down in film history if he'd stop making movies after "MASH." But he also gave the world "Nashville," "Player," "Gosford Park," all of them crowded with actors and bursting with dialogue and attitude.

We remember the filmmaker's life because today we learned of his death last night in Los Angeles. You may remember, it was just this year that Altman won a lifetime achievement Oscar after being passed over as best director five times in his long career.

In his acceptance speech, he revealed for the first time that he'd received a heart transplant a decade ago. Altman's final film was "A Prairie Home Companion," based on Garrison Keeler's radio show. Keeler says when Altman was making a movie, quote, "he was in heaven." Robert Altman, the artist and iconoclast, was 81.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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