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Nancy Grace
Did O.J. Spend the Money?
Aired November 27, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, more news on O.J. Simpson. Why won`t he go away? Breaking news tonight, the man who allegedly wrote Simpson`s "how to commit double murder" book is finally named. Did you think Simpson actually wrote a book all on his own? Well, tonight, it appears Simpson and his co-writer are raking in possible millions in blood money, and that is wrong!
And tonight, did a child molester fake his own death to avoid jail time? Let`s find this guy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The interview that will shock the nation.
JUDITH REGAN, REGANBOOKS: You wrote, "I`ve never seen so much blood in my life."
O.J. SIMPSON: I don`t think any two people could be murdered without everybody being covered in blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson, "If I Did It, Here`s How It Happened."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: What is the difference between this book and all the lawyers` books, all the blood books, and this interview? And (INAUDIBLE) you know, I ain`t making -- I will not say I`m sorry for anything I did. I was able to secure my homestead, pay off a whole lot of bills, and put my kids in a position to have their financial future totally secured because we all knew the book would have sold.
Goldmans and them, they got to stop being professional -- professional victims, you know? There`s other people in this world that are suffering from other things. My family suffered. Nicole was the love of my life. I suffered. I didn`t kill them. No matter what everybody want to say, I didn`t do it.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Including himself, since he wrote that book on how to commit double murder. Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. It ain`t over yet. That`s right, up to $3 million rumored to have been paid to O.J. Simpson and his ghost writer. Why did they get the money? Where is the money? And how can the victims` families get the money? Since when did we OK blood money? It`s all well and good that the book has been pulled, that the interview will not air. But the money has been paid out.
Out to Art Harris, investigative journalist who also covered the trial. Art, has the money already been paid out? I just heard Simpson bragging he secured his homestead, as he called it, and paid off bills.
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Nancy, he`s claimed that he did get some money, but he says he didn`t get the whole $3.5 million. Supposedly, a chunk of it was paid to his children through a trust fund, therefore keeping it...
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! He just said he paid off his house and his bills.
HARRIS: I know. He paid off -- he says he paid off bills and back taxes, and that money is gone. Whatever was given to O.J. is gone. It`s going to be tough to get.
GRACE: Wait, wait~! You just said two different things, Art Harris.
HARRIS: No, no. Nancy...
GRACE: You can`t -- you`re talking out both sides of your mouth!
HARRIS: He was promised $3.5 million...
GRACE: Did he get the money or the kids get the money?
HARRIS: Well, supposedly, it went to a trust fund. But as we heard O.J. say, he used it to pay off bills. So you`re right, some of it by his own admission had to go to him. And that`s the big mystery.
GRACE: Out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter. You can`t have it both ways, OK? And first of all, I don`t believe one thing that Simpson says. We do hear him saying he paid off his house and he paid a bunch of bills. That is blood money, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Now, I`ve heard reports from 800,000 to $3.2 million. How much are we talking about?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, he admits that it`s blood money, so he`s saying it out of his own mouth. Now, Judith Regan, who did the interview with O.J. Simpson and is the publisher of ReganBooks, said that her understanding was it would go to this mysterious third party and that that third party would pay Simpson`s kids. News Corp. said similar stuff, $880,000 went out, $100,000 of that went to a ghost writer named Pablo Fenjves, and the rest would somehow get to Simpson`s kids.
But I guess it got intercepted because the new reports are that O.J. got $663,000. And you heard him himself. He says, Yes, it was blood money, but I`m going to jump in there with the jackals. I had bills to pay. I had taxes to pay, and I wanted to secure my homestead. So it looks like he spent it, which is particularly outrageous because the Goldmans and the Browns want that money and are entitled to that money because O.J. Simpson lost the civil judgment and it was awarded to the victims` families, and they haven`t gotten a penny.
GRACE: What bills, Art Harris? Every time I see him, he`s out partying with a Nicole Brown lookalike.
HARRIS: Well, presumably, you know, there are not a lot of caddy fees these days. He`s playing on public golf courses, Nancy. But he does apparently have back taxes, and apparently, there he paid off his house. You know, he does -- he`s quite a pan about Miami, I understand. He`s often seen with women and he`s often signing autographs and hanging out. So he`s still living large, but albeit on a smaller landscape. So the past bills, who knows what -- what he`s been...
GRACE: Well, there he is, right there, and that looks to be a Rolls- Royce. I think that`s what that car is.
HARRIS: Yes, and he`s been getting money from autographs...
GRACE: What is O.J. Simpson doing in a Rolls-Royce? Now, there`s a fine how do you do! Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: Goldmans and them, they got to stop being professional -- professional victims. You know, there`s other people in this world suffering from other things. My family suffered. Nicole was the love of my life. I suffered. I didn`t kill them. No matter what everybody want to say, I didn`t do it.
I`m going to tell everybody once and for all. My NFL pension pays me $1,700 a month. My kids` high school tuition was $2,000 a month apiece. So don`t tell me I`m living on the NFL pension! I`m living on the sweat of my brow, the sweat of my own personal pensions, which are invested heavily in the stock market, and when the stock market crashes, you lose money.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Michelle in New York. Hi, Michelle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question tonight is, what, if anything, does O.J. Simpson`s children have to say about the book being released or not being released? Do they have any comments at all?
GRACE: Interesting. I want to go out to Art Harris on that. What do you know about the two children, Sydney and Justin?
HARRIS: By all accounts, Nancy, they did not object to this deal, and they have acknowledged that the money was going into a trust fund. Presumably, they got it or will get it or...
GRACE: Why do you keep saying that? We just heard the man say he paid off his house. How much was his house?
HARRIS: I don`t know. It...
GRACE: It`s quite the crib!
HARRIS: I don`t know, Nancy, how much his house is. However -- you know, he`s cryptic about that. But other accounts have described his children getting this money in a trust fund. O.J. obviously there admits that he siphoned some off or got some kind of a payment. That, as Jane pointed out, was due the Goldmans, and someone should at least be following that money under some sort of "Son of Sam" law. That is, that seems to not apply in a civil case, but that`s the big unanswered question, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, it is simple Trial 101. The "Son of Sam" law was in effect for a period of time. The "Son of Sam" law is all about David Berkowitz, the serial killer dubbed "Son of Sam." Tel us about it, Andy Kahan. There`s no "Son of Sam" law anymore. It was reversed by the U.S. Supreme Court.
ANDY KAHAN, DIR. VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: ... simply a figment of everybody`s imagination. You`re absolutely deluded to think convicted criminals aren`t making a buck off of their ill-gotten notoriety.
And you know, as much as you want to blame Simpson for everything, let`s not forget who is really complicit in getting O.J. Simpson the thousands and millions of dollars that he`s now cashing in on his infamy, and that`s Fox and Judith Regan. We can`t let them off the hook on this. He could not have done any of this without it. You`re absolutely delusional to think that Simpson was never going to get a dime, that the money was going to his children. He`s laughing his way all the way to the bank, and the victims are suffering continuously.
GRACE: Let`s unchain the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the New York jurisdiction, Mickey Sherman. Joining us out of Miami, Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, both veteran trial lawyers, defense attorneys. First to you, Mickey Sherman. Take off your defense hat just a moment. How do we trace the money? And there`s no way, if he really did pay that house off, under the law, that we can get that house.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, that kind of wacky homestead law they very in Florida, where can you steal a billion dollars, and as long as you put it into your house, then they`re not going to take away your home. I just can`t believe that they would get away with using some kind of a third-party sleazy deal like that. I mean, where are the Goldman lawyers at this point? I got to believe that they have tracked somehow forensically at least where that money has gone and where it -- where it`s going to wind up. And you know, with the "Son of Sam" thing -- why even talk about "Son of Sam"? He wasn`t convicted. He wasn`t convicted...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! Wait a minute. Wait a minute. In a civil case, he was found liable, responsible for the two murders. A $33 million...
SHERMAN: That`s money.
GRACE: ... judgment against him, so...
SHERMAN: Yes, but all you`re talking about there is money, Nancy. That`s all this is.
GRACE: That`s true. But "Son of Sam", Lida, deals with money. It says that Berkowitz -- that`s what the case was all about -- could not sell his story and make money, blood money, off of his victims. Listen, I don`t know if you guys remember the testimony, but as I recall it -- and Art Harris, you correct me if I`m wrong -- Lida, Nicole Brown`s neck was severed all the way back to her neck bone. There was a nick from the knife on the inside of her neck bone. It was one of the bloodiest murder scenes ever, of human blood, and now this guy is paying off a multi-million-dollar mansion down in Florida. How can we stop it?
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, but he was acquitted. That`s the big "if" here. That`s a problem. And you know, our homestead law is a little wacky, but our proceedings in aid of execution, which are the process that allows you, if you have a judgment, to come in to Florida and go after people`s assets -- they`re great. What these lawyers should be doing is they should be coming into Florida, deposing, taking the deposition of Mr. Simpson on a regular basis. Take it every couple of months. Find out what his assets are. Get all of the information. They have plenty of recourse in Florida. We`re not as wacky as we seem.
GRACE: To Peter Haven, Goldman family attorney, kind enough to join us tonight. He is coming out of LA. Peter, welcome to the show. You know -- you`ve heard Simpson state that he paid off his house and paid a lot of bills. Boy, I`d like to know what those bills were. Remember just recently, he was charged with stealing $20,000 worth of illegal cable?
PETER HAVEN, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF RON GOLDMAN: Well, the stories I hear...
GRACE: Twenty thousand dollars~!
HAVEN: Right. Well, the stories I hear never cease to amaze me with this particular person. And I use the term loosely. We`re constantly subjected with new information regarding where assets are, where they may be going and different mechanisms and means that we have at our disposal to try and collect them. And we`re going to continue to do everything that we can to try and pursue all available funds that by right...
GRACE: Well, what do you think about his theory that all the money went to his children? Fat chance!
HAVEN: Well, I don`t see how all the money could have gone to his children if, in fact, he admits that he paid off his bills with it. So I just don`t think that`s true.
GRACE: Now, we`ve been talking about the so-called ghost writer. His name is Pablo Fenjves. Here`s who Pablo Fenjves is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNNIE COCHRAN, O.J. SIMPSON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: My question is, do you recall so indicating to the police that at about 10:15 to 10:30, witnesses -- you and your wife -- heard a dog barking uncontrollably to the rear of their residence? Did you indicate that to the police officers?
PABLO FENJVES, NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON`S NEIGHBOR: No, sir. As I told you, I told them that I heard the dog barking between 10:15 and 10:20.
COCHRAN: So if they have that wrong, they`re wrong.
FENJVES: That is possible because I did not say that.
COCHRAN: Did you then tell the police, sir, that you went outside on your rear porch to look?
FENJVES: No, sir, did I not tell them that, either.
COCHRAN: You didn`t tell the police that, either?
FENJVES: No, sir.
COCHRAN: But you looked to the south toward Nicole Simpson`s residence, is that correct?
FENJVES: That is correct. I did that from the master bedroom.
COCHRAN: All right. Did you go out on the porch and do that?
FENJVES: No, I did not, sir.
COCHRAN: Do you a porch that looks out.
FENJVES: I have a porch. And basically, I just popped open the plantation shutters and looked out and...
COCHRAN: Listen to the question. Do you have a porch?
FENJVES: Yes, sir, I do have a porch.
COCHRAN: Did you ever on June 12 in the late evening hours go out on the porch and look south down that alleyway?
FENJVES: No, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Art Harris. You were in the courtroom every single day. Do your this guy, who is now the ghost writer, Pablo Fenjves, on the stand?
HARRIS: Absolutely, Nancy. He was a pivotal witness for the prosecution, supposedly establishing the time of the death by reporting that he heard this plaintive wail. That would have been Nicole Brown Simpson`s Akita dog. They don`t bark, Nancy, they howl and whine. And he heard it and looked outside, didn`t see anything, apparently. But that was a key moment in the timeline. And this was Johnnie Cochran, of course, trying to undermine the story he told police.
GRACE: OK, let`s talk about responsibility. That is Pablo Fenjves, the alleged ghost writer who pocketed money in this blood book. He happened to be a neighbor of O.J. Simpson`s (SIC), according to reports.
To Dr. Robi Ludwig. Take a listen to this advertisement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The interview that will shock the nation.
JUDITH REGAN, REGANBOOKS: You wrote, "I have never seen so much blood in my life."
O.J. SIMPSON: I don`t think any two people could be murdered without everybody being covered in blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson, "If I Did It, Here`s How It Happened."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: ... responsibility lie? I mean, Simpson himself called this blood money.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think everybody who was involved in this project needs to take responsibility. It just doesn`t happen. You know, O.J. didn`t do it on his own. The publishing company needs to take responsibility, and so does the ghost writer. Anyone who made this happen needs to take responsibility. And it shouldn`t have happened.
GRACE: Andy Kahan, is there any law on the book to help the Goldman family now?
KAHAN: You know, the "Son of Sam" laws bring up a very pivotal issue in the Simpson case, and it lacks those who are found civilly liable. I think if we`re ever going to have any strength or any teeth in any "Son of Sam" laws to prevent convicted criminals from profiting off their notoriety, we`re going to having to also add those who are found civilly liable, as well.
GRACE: So bottom line, you`re saying we`re going to have to. I guess that means the answer is no, there`s no way to help them.
KAHAN: Not right now. I mean, again, I think Fox and Regan Media, they`re the complicit parties in this. If they...
GRACE: It`s Fox broadcasting, not Fox News.
KAHAN: Fox broadcasting, as well.
GRACE: Right.
KAHAN: OK. Thanks for correcting me on that. I think they`re the ones that are really complicit in this because if they knowingly brokered a deal with a third party, knowing that there`s a $33-bazillion judgment...
GRACE: Didn`t you hear that everybody said, Oh, we didn`t know anything about it. All the higher-ups said, We don`t know anything about it, until just before it happened. It was like a radioactive hot potato.
KAHAN: Oh, I liked Judith Regan...
GRACE: Nobody knew anything!
KAHAN: I liked Judith Regan saying, Oh, the money`s going to his children. Well, O.J. just lied to you again!
GRACE: Everybody, we`ll all be right back. I`m interested to hear what you have to say about this. It`s called blood money. Is it to late to get it back from O.J. Simpson?
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." A Colorado homeowners association is threatening a $1,000 fine on a resident for putting out this Christmas wreath. When the five member architecture committee refused to force the wreath down, the homeowner president -- here`s his name, Bob Kerns (ph) -- fired all five of them. The homeowner standing fast, refusing to take down the wreath.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911 emergency...
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, O.J. SIMPSON`S WIFE: Could you get someone over here now to 325 Gretna Green? He`s back. Please!
911 OPERATOR: OK. What does he look like?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He`s O.J. Simpson. I think you know his record. Could you just send somebody over here?
911 OPERATOR: OK. What is he doing there?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He just pulled up again!
(CROSSTALK)
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: ... somebody over?
911 OPERATOR: Wait a minute. What kind of car is he in?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He`s in a white Bronco. But first of all, he broke the back door down to get in, OK?
911 OPERATOR: Wait a minute. What`s your name?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Nicole Simpson.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is he the sportscaster or whatever?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Wait a minute. (INAUDIBLE) What is he doing? Is he threatening you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: He`s (DELETED) going nuts!
911 OPERATOR: Has he threatened you in any way or -- or is he just harassing you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: You can hear him in a minute. (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK, just stay on the line.
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: I don`t want to stay on the line. He`s going to beat the (DELETED) (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Wait a minute. Wait -- just stay on the line so we can know what`s going on until the police get there, OK?
O.J. SIMPSON: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Is he talking to you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Are you locked in a room or something?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: No, he can come right in. I`m not going where the kids are because (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Do you think he`s going to hit you?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: I don`t know.
O.J. SIMPSON: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Stay on the line. Don`t hang it up, OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson, did you kill Nicole and Ron Goldman?
O.J. SIMPSON: Absolutely not. And I`ve maintained my innocence from day one, never wavered. And I believe the evidence proved it, but you know, there`s certain parts of the evidence that people never want to discuss. You know, they like to discuss the obvious stuff, but they don`t remember Henry Lee`s and some of the things that Barry Scheck was able to discover showing the malfeasance of the LAPD.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Simpson goes on to state how he would never hurt his family, but what do you make of that 911 call? And to top it all off, not only has blood money been made off of this book, "If I Did It, Here`s How I Did It," a how-to to commit murder -- eBay, what`s wrong with you? One of my producers has just told me at Murderauction.com and eBay, an O.J. Simpson bloody O.J. action figure. Yes! Nice!
Let`s go to the lines. Mary in California. Hi. Mary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I really appreciate the good work you do.
GRACE: Thank you, friend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question of, why can`t the Goldman attorneys put some kind of a lien on these kinds of earnings of his?
GRACE: Good question. What about it, Peter Haven?
HAVEN: ... into that right now. The difficult part about tracing these monies is, A, some of them are in all likelihood already spent...
GRACE: Did you say you`re looking into it?
HAVEN: We are exploring different legal remedies that we have at our disposal. And the most important thing that we have to identify is where the money is and where it`s likely to go.
GRACE: Peter, no offense, but he`s spending it right now while you guys are looking into it. How do you slap a lien on him?
HAVEN: Well, I don`t know how to slap a lien on money that`s already spent.
GRACE: OK. Good point. Well taken.
Out to Gerri in Pennsylvania. Hi, Gerri.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. God bless you.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know, why isn`t O.J. in contempt of court for not paying the judgment? Here in Pennsylvania, we`d be in jail.
GRACE: What about it, Jane Velez-Mitchell?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it`s an excellent question and somebody should pursue that. I mean, he has been essentially thumbing his nose at this entire situation for years now and saying publicly, I`m not going to pay it, I think it`s double jeopardy, I don`t think I should have to. People need to go after him and they need explore every legal possibility, and that`s one of them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: I love my life! Isn`t life wonderful? Thank you, Jesus!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: O.J. Simpson saying he`s loving his life. I guess he is because he just raked in reports of up to $3 million -- we don`t have a clear figure -- off of a book about how he allegedly committed double murder.
I want to go back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell. I want to find out who owns the rights to this book and to the interview. I guess the interview had already been done. How long do you think it will take, Jane Velez- Mitchell for this to turn up on the Internet for pay or on HBO? I mean, you know it`s going to get out if anybody else has a copy of that video.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Frankly...
GRACE: Especially Simpson.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... I am shocked, Nancy, that excerpts from the book haven`t already popped up on the Internet, considering three copies purportedly were up on eBay. They`ve all been yanked. In eBay`s defense, they say with 100 million items up there, it takes them a while to flag them and pull them down. They`re pulling them down as fast as they can. Bids up to $1 million, but a realistic bid, $15,000. So there`s three hard copies purportedly out there.
Even if they were yanked from eBay, it doesn`t mean they disappeared. They`re still in somebody`s hands. Somebody could be Xeroxing them. I think it`s only a matter of time before they pop up.
GRACE: And remember, Art Harris, the "I Want to Tell You" video that Simpson did and marketed and it aired? Remember that?
HARRIS: And the book that he also wrote way back when, Nancy. But that was sort of, you know, a love letter to himself. I would love to see the details that are in this book. In fact, there`s so many details about the murder reportedly that...
GRACE: It`s showing up, Art.
HARRIS: I know, but...
GRACE: It`s going to be on pay-per-view!
HARRIS: Well, let`s just say, Nancy, if you read this book, I`m told, the details that he furnishes are chilling. And he even said that maybe the ghost writer is the killer because --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON, ACCUSED OF MURDER OF WIFE AND FRIEND: How could anybody say I could have killed Nicole? How could anybody say that? Don`t they understand that I would jump in front of a bullet for Nicole? I`d jump in front of a train to protect any member of my family.
(INAUDIBLE) wagon here, guys. I`ve been dealing with this for eight years. I am legal. I`d never break the law. You`re constantly in -- all you hear out of the Goldmans` mouth is money, money, money, money, money. We`re going to find the money.
I saw about five stories last year with the various tabloids, that the IRS is closing in on O.J., his money stash. There is no money stash.
I don`t know what happened. I can`t tell you. And I understood that this lady, Judith Regan, obviously thought, "Oh, he did it, so he knows how to confess. He`ll just confess." The writer, when I first met him, she said it was going to be a confession book. I said, "Well, I have nothing to confess." So they all negotiated and negotiated and negotiated and they came up with this hook, make it a hypothetical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The hook, make it a hypothetical. This guy reportedly describes a crime scene so bloody, unlike anything he had ever seen before. Before we went to break, did I hear you, Art Harris, actually say Simpson is now trying to blame the ghostwriter?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Apparently, Nancy, there`s so much detail about the crime...
GRACE: What is wrong with him?
HARRIS: Well, Nancy, you know, he`s obviously dodging and shuffling as always. But he is trying to blame the ghostwriter as the killer because of the detail he was able to get out of him.
GRACE: Yes, they had a great working relationship. Now he`s blaming him for double murder. What do you know about this guy?
HARRIS: Nancy, he`s a former "National Enquirer" reporter who wound up in L.A. as a screenwriter, a real veteran, written a number of movies, and he`s done a number of books for Judith Regan. He wrote Amber Frey`s book. He did Janice Dickinson`s book. And, you know, he`s not hurting for projects. But any writer if offered to talk to O.J. Simpson, I mean, Nancy, if you had a chance to cross-examine him and write about him...
GRACE: You`re kidding me.
HARRIS: ... wouldn`t you? You wouldn`t pass it up.
GRACE: No, no, you`re darn right I`d pass it up, not that he would want me around him anyway, because I think he`s a double killer. No, no, why would I want to glamorize a murderer?
HARRIS: No, no, no, but it`s a window into the psyche of one of the most infamous killers...
GRACE: I don`t want to be in his psyche. Why would you invite the devil for tea? He might stay for dinner. Next thing, he`s moved in upstairs. No, I don`t want to have a sit-down with Simpson.
HARRIS: Because, Nancy, you are such an extraordinary cross-examiner, he would be putty in your hands.
GRACE: No sucking up here. Thanks. I liked it for the moment.
Dr. Robi Ludwig, did you hear Simpson state he would jump in front of a train to save a member of his family? Did he hear that 911 tape when he beat the crap out of Nicole Brown?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right, right, he would jump in front of a train for her, unless she was threatening to leave him and date other men, then that`s a very different story. And that`s what we find with marital homicide. When men kill their wives, it`s usually when they want to leave them.
So he felt that he was being abandoned, and he could have still very much loved his wife, but that doesn`t mean he wouldn`t kill her if he felt that somehow she was trying to annihilate him.
GRACE: Let`s go back out to the lawyers, Mickey Sherman and Lida Rodriguez-Taseff.
Mickey, we all know about double jeopardy. This guy could take out a billboard in Times Square, "I Did It Times Two," and there`s not a thing we could do about it.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I don`t know about that. I don`t know why anyone hasn`t brought out the fact that maybe they could try and federally, like they tried to do with the civil rights workers, and it worked very effectively, that depriving people of their civil rights is an excuse to try them again for murder. We saw it in the Rodney King case...
GRACE: You mean prosecute him federally on a civil right violation?
SHERMAN: Yes, they did it with the Rodney King cops out west. They did it here with Lemrick Nelson, who was acquitted of murdering Yankel Rosenbaum in the Crown Heights case here, which was really emotional. And both people were convicted on both sides of the coast.
GRACE: You know what, Mickey? You`re absolutely right. What about it, Lida?
SHERMAN: That`s why I`m on TV.
GRACE: Is there a chance?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Well, you know, the fact that you have Nicole being white and Simpson being black, you might actually have something, Mickey. You know, I think the difficulty here, though, is that there is no state action and...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Or being a woman, Lida, being a minority or a female puts you in a protected class.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Exactly, that also would work. But, you know, in most of these cases that are brought under the Civil Rights Act for deprivation of civil rights, it`s usually state action, Nancy, as you well know. And that means usually -- it`s like the Rodney King case, where you had police officers beating an individual, or some other instances of state action. But it`s very, very hard. It`s a great idea.
GRACE: Hey, it worked with Rodney King.
SHERMAN: No, but it`s politically motivated. I mean, let`s be honest about it. Race really has nothing to do with...
GRACE: Oh, that`s right. Bring it up, and shoot it down, Mickey.
SHERMAN: No, it has nothing to do with these cases, but it could be done. The problem is, you still don`t have a smoking gun. What are you going to do, put on Pablo Fenjves there to say he said he did it? You know, that`s...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know what? I think, with a different jury, you could put the same exact evidence he up the first time around and get a conviction. Let`s go to the lines, to Tricia in Indiana. Hi, Tricia.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: Hey, listen, I`m wondering, based on what he says in the book, he was charged with two counts of first-degree murder, and he was acquitted. So does that mean he can`t double jeopardy? Does that mean he can`t be charged with anything concerning the murder, or could he be charged with conspiracy to commit murder at this point?
GRACE: No, he can`t be charged with anything to do with that murder.
CALLER: He can`t?
GRACE: And I often wondered if, like in the Andrea Yates case, Tricia, if they should have held back one of the indictments and just tried him on, for instance, Nicole Brown`s murder and brought in Ron Goldman as a similar transaction. That way they could have ensured another case, to go forward with Ron Goldman as the victim. But, you know, that`s Monday morning quarterbacking.
Another issue is, how many of these videos of the interview and books were given to Simpson? You know, Jane Velez, when you write a book, the author, co-authors usually get a couple, as they call them, vanity copies. I remember when I wrote my book, I think I got 25. And I bet you Simpson has these books. How long do you give it before it turns up on the black market?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: As I said, I`m absolutely shocked that it hasn`t popped up already. And you`re right. I`m writing a book myself. And, obviously, you go back and forth, and you`re doing revisions constantly, so you would have excerpts to distribute...
GRACE: Or the manuscript.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... at will, or the manuscript itself.
GRACE: You know what`s crazy -- out to you, Andy Kahan -- Andy`s a victims` rights advocate with the Houston Crime Victims Office, a real pioneer in this area -- did you know that people approached me to try to buy the lottery tickets to get into the Scott Peterson case? I`m like, "No way, I`m not selling anything to do with this double homicide in my case." I thought that was a double homicide. So, you know, no telling what this is going to turn up selling for.
ANDY KAHAN, DIRECTOR, VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: Oh, it`s going to go for...
GRACE: Like the manuscript. What about the manuscript itself?
KAHAN: Oh, you`re absolutely correct. Jane is correct. You`re correct. I mean, I think, within a matter of days, weeks -- and certainly we`ve got a sweeps coming up in February -- this is going to pop up. Millions are going to be made, and O.J. again is going to be laughing his way to the bank and saying, "Fooled you once, fooled you again."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMPSON: I don`t have any bank accounts in the Bahamas. I don`t have any extra money any place. The Goldmans, I don`t have the obligation to make money and take it to the Goldmans. I don`t have those obligations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Julian Pipkins` defense attorney told prosecutors his client was probably dead, they were skeptical, and they were right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And later in the week, we learned that there was a good chance that he is alive. And since then, we`ve been looking for him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say `s teenage son admitted he concocted an elaborate story with his dad to convince authorities that he drowned in a boating accident in Galveston, Texas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did a child molester fake his own death in order to escape trial and jail time? Out to staff writer with the "Atlanta Journal Constitution," Kathy Jefcoats, Kathy, what`s going on?
KATHY JEFCOATS, "ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION": Well, Nancy, he was due into court November 6th for trial, and he didn`t show up when his case was called.
GRACE: What was he charged with? I`ve got the indictment here. Let`s see. Counts one and two, child molestation. Kathy, what kind of time was he looking at?
JEFCOATS: He was looking at a good 20 years in prison, if he was convicted.
GRACE: Joining us also is a very special guest, from Peachtree City, the Peachtree police chief, Jim Murray. That`s awful convenient timing. The morning you`re due in court, you have a little boat accident.
JIM MURRAY, PEACHTREE CITY POLICE: Well, Nancy, it sounds like, you know, it falls right in there with the excuse, "The dog ate my homework." And I think authorities very quickly found out that the story had been concocted by Mr. Pipkins with his 16-year-old to throw authorities off.
GRACE: You know, the fact that he actually used his son -- to Scott Ballard, another special guest joining us, the elected district attorney out of the Griffin judicial system -- Scott, I really thought I had seen it all, but to fake your own death rather than come to court?
SCOTT BALLARD, FAYETTE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Yes, that`s pretty sorry, isn`t it?
GRACE: Yes, pretty darn sorry. And I`m taking a look at this formal indictment. This is a charge of actual full-blown sexual intercourse with a 12-year-old girl.
BALLARD: That`s right. That`s one of the counts. And the other counts would be fondling incidents that had occurred prior to that.
GRACE: Oh, yes. Yes, I see that. And allegedly there was an eyewitness, correct?
BALLARD: Yes, the girl`s mother walked in and caught him on top of her.
GRACE: Oh, good lord. So explain to me how this unfolded, how the morning he`s supposed to report to court, he has a boating accident, and used his own son as an excuse?
BALLARD: Yes. I was going to try the case, and the victim and her mother had come back from Texas, and they were ready for trial. And then before court on the day the trial was to start, the defense lawyer called me and said that he had heard his client had been killed in a boating accident.
And, you know, we`re used to people missing court for all kinds of excuses, as I`m sure you were as a prosecutor. So we called the case to trial anyway, and the court issued a bench warrant when he didn`t show up. We were skeptical about it and called the Coast Guard, and we confirmed that they were actually looking for the body, and, of course, later learned a couple of days later that the son had admitted that the father had told him to lie about his death in the...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So let me guess, Scott Ballard, no body ever turned up. Back to Art Harris, investigative reporter. Art, how did he try to fake his death? What was the scenario? I can`t wait to hear this.
HARRIS: Nancy, he went out in an open boat, 70-foot boat, with his son, and it returned mysteriously to the same place on the beach, despite all the currents and winds. And he told his son to tell this story, and then he vanished. His son finally told authorities his dad had told him to make up a story and, by then, he was long gone. Authorities now believe he`s somewhere in north Texas, and the U.S. Marshal Service is on the hunt.
GRACE: To Kathy Jefcoats, with the "AJC," "Atlanta Journal Constitution," Kathy, why Texas? Take a look at this guy. Alleged child molester facing two felony counts in the Griffin jurisdiction in Georgia. The chief of police and the district attorney are with us tonight. Why do they believe he could be in Texas, Kathy?
JEFCOATS: Oh, I`m sorry. You`re breaking up.
GRACE: Why do they think he`s in Texas, Kathy?
JEFCOATS: Why do they think he`s in Texas?
GRACE: Yes.
BALLARD: He returned to Texas from Georgia; apparently, that`s where he`s from. He`d only been in Georgia for about a month when this happened. And apparently he has an ex-wife and a couple of kids who live in a suburb of Houston and had apparently returned back there waiting for trial.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop and former fed with the FBI, OK, what do we do now, Mike?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, Nancy, first of all, who would have ever taken a boat like that out in that kind of water off of Galveston? You know what it is like down there. That`s unbelievable.
Right now, they think he`s either somewhere in north Texas, but then they thought he could have been somewhere in New York State. Apparently, he has another relative who has graduated from one of the service academies. They thought he might have been there. You know, they should issue a UFAP, unlawful flight to avoid prosecution warrant...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, a what?
BROOKS: It`s called a UFAP warrant, unlawful flight to prosecution.
GRACE: OK.
BROOKS: It can be put out by either the U.S. Marshal Service or the FBI. That should be done. They really want to have more eyes.
And one thing I also want to point out, Nancy, this guy also wears glasses, so our viewers should also think of this guy possibly with glasses. I`ve been told he can fit in anywhere. He`s extremely well- educated. And, you know, it probably only a matter of time, Nancy, before he befriends another woman who has a daughter who`s 11 to 14 years old and strikes again.
GRACE: You know, you brought up something really interesting as usual, Mike Brooks. To Dr. Robi Ludwig, the fact -- and we`ve seen this before -- of predator dating the mom to get to the child.
LUDWIG: Yes. And also I think that there is a misconception amongst pedophiles that pedophiles can be attracted to adults and children, but it`s very scary for a parent, because they think it`s normal to think, "Oh, this could never happen to me." And it`s very hard to identify these characters.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas -- joining us, he is the president of Beyond Missing. Marc, it`s great to see you again. Thank you for being with us, friend.
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER OF BEYOND MISSING: Thank you.
GRACE: Marc, in so many -- I would say the majority of the child molestation cases that I prosecuted, the mother of the child, very often, would side with the molester, the husband, the boyfriend, the live-in. This mother did not. She tried to go straight to the police, and he still is beating the rap.
KLAAS: Yes, well, isn`t it refreshing that there`s a mother who puts the welfare of her child ahead of her boyfriend? I think what people have to understand is that characters like this are very different from common criminals. They`re about sexual predilections, and they can be very intelligent and very manipulative.
So there are a couple of things that people can do that we couldn`t even do 10 years ago. You can utilize the Megan`s Law Web sites for the various sites or in the Drushow Dean (ph) Web site on the Department of Justice Web site...
GRACE: You`ve got to...
(CROSSTALK)
KLAAS: ... to find out if somebody might have some kind of a sexual history like that. Or -- and this is something I think people should be aware of -- in October of 1998, President Clinton signed the Volunteers for Children Act, which allows organizations that give unfettered access to children the ability to utilize the Interstate Identification Index to check on criminal histories of individuals, because we understand that these guys will put their whole lives into trying to get near children, either as part of a personal relationship, as part of their volunteer activities, or as part of their professional services.
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Mickey Sherman and Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, Mickey, in this case, the guy had been offered a deal before he was in his boating accident. When they finally dig him up, no way is he going to get the plea offer.
SHERMAN: No, that deal is probably gone with the wind. And, of course, the other charges, failing to appear in court, perhaps the federal charge of fugitive from justice. You know what? I find it interesting -- and I commend the district attorney for -- is apparently they`ve not charged the son in this case for somehow obstructing justice. I think that would dilute the effect of going after this man and might, in fact, generate sympathy for the family if they went after the son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Innocent men don`t fake their death and then run. I would think that he has something that he does not want to come out in the open in a trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Julian Pipkins` defense attorney told prosecutors his client was probably dead, they were skeptical, and they were right. Police say Pipkins` teenage son admitted he concocted an elaborate story with his dad to convince authorities that he drowned in a boating accident in Galveston, Texas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did this alleged child molester fake his own death to avoid going to trial? Out to the lines, Jo in Michigan. Hi, Jo.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: How are you, dear?
CALLER: Just fine. How are you, sweetie?
GRACE: I`m good. What`s your question?
CALLER: My question is, was the bond so low, set so low for a child molester that he could afford to...
GRACE: You know what? You are right on it. What about it, Scott Ballard? What was this guy doing out on bond anyway?
BALLARD: ... set at $150,000 bond for him. And like so many of these people, he didn`t have a prior record.
GRACE: Not a prior record that we know of, right, Scott?
BALLARD: That`s exactly right. Yes, that`s a good point.
GRACE: Hey, you know what, Scott? With me -- I`m referring to him in the first name, Scott Ballard is the elected district attorney in the Griffin judicial circuit, along with Chief Jim Murray of the Peachtree City police.
Scott, here`s the deal. This guy didn`t just suddenly catch this charge, all right? When a guy is caught child molesting, do you really think this is the first time it just dawned on him that day?
BALLARD: No.
GRACE: To take advantage of this little girl?
BALLARD: Think about this girl. She lived out in Texas, and the mother gets a transfer, and she comes back to Georgia, and there he is in the same house with them again. And then he`s caught; he`s put in jail. She and the mother move back to Texas, and the next thing they know, there he is moving back out to Texas.
GRACE: So Texas is the perfect place to start. Very quickly, Mike Brooks, any ideas?
BROOKS: I`ll tell you what, Nancy: This could be a very difficult case to make. Usually you want to try to follow the paper trail, financial records, those kind of things. But this guy is so slick, so charismatic, and can blend in anywhere, it`s going to be up to our viewers -- it could be up to our viewers to put this guy in jail. We`re going to need their help, very much so. Call the police if you see him.
GRACE: You`re not kidding, Mike. I agree, 770-487-8866. Let`s stop for a moment to remember tonight Marine Sergeant Luke Zimmerman, Green Bay, Wisconsin, just 24, killed first duty, Iraq. Zimmerman on the state champ wrestling team. Also ran cross-country. Outside his family home, flew the American and Marine Corps flags, a blue star at the window. Sergeant Luke Zimmerman, American hero.
Thank you to the guests and for you, for being with us. NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
