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Mending Fences in Turkey; The Hijab Comeback; President Bush Arrives for Talks With 25 Other NATO Leaders

Aired November 28, 2006 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Mending fences in Turkey. Pope Benedict is in Ankara, hoping to smooth over those controversial remarks that angered Muslims worldwide.
COLLEEN MCEDWARDS, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Tension from Turkey to France, where Christians and Muslim Muslims stare at each other across the religious divide.

HOLMES: And a sectarian plot or American policies? U.S. and Iranian leaders trade blame for the growing violence in Iraq. Iraqi leaders trapped in the middle.

It's 7:00 p.m. in Ankara, 6:00 p.m. in Paris.

Hello and welcome to our report broadcast right around the globe.

I'm Michael Holmes.

MCEDWARDS: And I'm Colleen McEdwards.

From Istanbul to Tehran, Beijing to Baghdad, wherever you're watching, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY.

Well, tight security and tension greeted Pope Benedict in Turkey.

HOLMES: That's right. Muslims there and, in fact, around the world closely watching and listening to the leader of one billion Catholics.

MCEDWARDS: They're looking for a change in tone, certainly from remarks that he made back in September that set off a furor in Muslim communities.

HOLMES: Yes. We're going to take a closer look at that this hour. And also what's causing so much discord between cultures.

MCEDWARDS: So far, though, there's an air of conciliation, really, surrounding the pope's visit.

So let's get details on that now and turn to CNN's Alessio Vinci, who's been following this trip from Ankara for us.

Alessio, is this pope doing what he needs to do to mend some fences here?

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: I would say for the time being, he's doing that. If Turks were looking for a change in tone, Colleen, that's exactly what they got so far from the pope.

Even before touching down here in Ankara, the pope, in the plane, on the way here, telling us, the reporters on the plane with him, that he was embarking on a mission of (INAUDIBLE) reconciliation. And then, since, you know, he wanted to really show that he really meant it.

When he arrived here in the very first minutes meeting with the Turkish prime minister, who was an outspoken critic of the pope when he made those comments in Germany a few months ago, he basically told him that, although it was not up to the Vatican to decide, the Vatican would hope that Turkey would June the European Union. And this is a significant comment coming from the side of the pope, since when he was a cardinal he vehemently opposed it, citing cultural and religious differences between Turkey and Europe.

And these are the cultural and religious differences that he's trying to bridge. And his desire to reconcile and mend fences was also evident when he met with the head of the religious affairs here, sort of the highest authority here that deals with religious issues in Turkey. And he basically said that we are called to work together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE BENEDICT XVI: I pray so that it may be a sign of our joint commitment to dialogue between Christians and Muslim, and en encouragement to persevere along set paths in respect and friendship. May we come to know one another better, strengthen the bonds of perfection (ph) between us and our common wish to live together in harmony, peace, and mature trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VINCI: That ahead of the religious fairs director who spoke before the pope echoes his need to work together, but he also offered a clear rejection that Islam is a religion based on violence. And he said that, unfortunately, because there is some -- some phobia around the world, he said, some people insulting Islam, breeds violence. And he basically said that Muslims condemn all types of violence. He said, unfortunately, in recent times, because of this Islamophobia which leads people to think that we are violent people, he said that (INAUDIBLE) are using religion for the wrong acts, such as violence -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: All right.

Alessio Vinci in Ankara.

Thanks very much, Alessio -- Michael.

HOLMES: All right. Let's get some more perspective now. Let's turn to our own Hala Gorani, host of CNN's "INSIDE THE MIDDLE EAST." She does, of course, travel extensively across the Muslim world. Today she's in Dubai -- Hala.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Michael.

As you mentioned there, we do travel a lot throughout the Middle East and the Muslim world. And since 9/11 and the start of the Iraq war, we've noticed new religious fervor in this region.

For instance, a generation ago, in major cities in this region, a crushing majority of women would not be wearing the Islamic veil, the hijab. Today, that proportion is completely reversed. A very small minority of women, for instance, in a city like Alexandria in Egypt, do not wear the veil.

So we asked ourselves this question recently: Why it is that there is more Islamic fervor, why is it that more women are wearing the hijab? We called it the hijab comeback.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI (voice over): This is an average street in Damascus, in Syria. The majority of women here are veiled. You might call it the hijab comeback.

A generation ago, on a similar street, you were likely to see miniskirts and free-flowing hair. Why the change?

For Kinda Kabar (ph), a Syrian magazine editor, it's partly the result of political frustration. After decades of rule from the region's secular single-party government, the women are embracing Islamic traditions.

So, I think the women faced a kind of a key depression, or some, like, bad experience that those parties fail in taking their rule. The only Muslim parties who didn't try it yet, so they are taking the second direction, which is becoming really religious.

GORANI: Out on the streets of the Syrian capital, although most women say on camera that they cover their hair for purely religious reasons, some admit they wear the hijab because of social pressure.

"You'd feel strange not wearing a veil when everyone else around you is," this student says.

"It's well known women who show their hair are all tramps," says another.

And in a region where pop videos feature barely-dressed music stars, ordinary women sometimes feel they need to cover up just to get married.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we have some problem with the -- let's say the Eastern mentality, the Oriental mentality in the men. They want this lady to wear the hijab. So they change the look in order to make those guys really attracted to them.

GORANI: The renewed popularity of the veil has spread to the toy market in the Middle East. We were not allowed to film inside this Damascus store. So I went to buy a very popular veiled doll called Fulla (ph).

(on camera): All right. So this is the doll we just bought from the toy store. This is the Fulla (ph) doll with the hijab, as you can see.

Head scarf, fully buttoned-down coat. Interestingly, though, you open the coat, the outfit is a lot more revealing and a lot more Western.

Now, this type of toy comes with accessories, change of clothing. Interestingly, this was one sold with spreadable processed cheese. The company that makes the Fulla (ph) doll says it's done its research and that there's a real demand in the region for this type of toy.

(voice over): For many women, wearing a head scarf has become a spiritual obligation. Lubna Sharif (ph) is a 24-year-old Palestinian living in Syria. She helped organize a conference in the Syrian capital on women and tradition, and dreams of becoming a professional photographer. She says the veil was imposed on her at the age of 11.

But now...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now I love it. I want it. I don't want to get rid of it.

GALA: Lubna (ph) says the veil is now part of her identity, like her clothes, like her name.

And on the streets of the Middle East, the hijab is as much part of many women's identity as the free-flowing hair of the region's women was several decades ago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: What's important to underline here is that the renewed Islamic practice throughout the region is as much a result of external pressure. People here sometimes tell me they feel victimized, like somehow the West is acting like a crusader invasion force. But also as much a result of internal pressure.

There is very little political freedom in the Middle East. A way to express one's self is through religion. That is the one type of -- and you see it through religious parties who end up doing very well at the polls -- that is the one type of public expression that an authoritarian government can not really silence -- Michael.

HOLMES: And Hala, I'm curious about one thing. You are in Dubai, which is a fairly Western sort of attitude, certainly towards foreigners. But I'm curious, when you go to some other places in the Middle East, whether you feel that you should be wearing the hijab just to make people happy.

GORANI: Well, no. I never feel like I have to, but sometimes I have to because it's what's dictated to me by the authorities. For instance, as you know, when we report from Saudi Arabia, it is required of women to cover their hair. It's the same thing in Iran. Our perspective is, of course, the perspective of people who report on the Middle East but who live abroad and are familiar with other cultures.

We don't ever feel pressure, really. Occasionally, when you go into neighborhoods where, for instance, there are lower-class, lower- income neighborhoods, you might get a few looks. But it's not something that would prevent you from working or operating. And it's definitely not something that gets you harassed on any level -- Michael.

HOLMES: Interesting. All right, Hala. Thanks. We'll see you a little bit later in the program.

Hala Gorani there in Dubai.

Well, more perspective on Pope Benedict's visit still to come on our program. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, a former spokesman for the pope's predecessor, John Paul II, joins us for a rare interview. Colleen will be speaking with him.

Stay with us for that.

COLLINS: Well, Iran's supreme leader blames the United States for the unending violence in Iraq. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei spoke during a meeting with Iraqi president Jalal Talabani. This happening in Tehran.

Khamenei says U.S. agents are purposely promoting sectarian strife between Shiites and Sunnis and that the situation won't be stabilized until coalition troops leave. Mr. Talabani and several Iraqi ministers are in Iran to try to improve ties between the two countries. Khamenei says he supports stronger bilateral agreements.

HOLMES: Well, mourners waiting outside a hospital morgue are among the latest victims to die violently in Iraq. As they waited to claim their dead, two car bombs exploded, killing at least four of them, wounding 40 others.

A police patrol happened to be passing by at the time. That probably was the target. A police officer was among the dead.

MCEDWARDS: The deteriorating security situation in Iraq very much on the agenda in Latvia. That's where NATO leaders have gathered for a summit. U.S. President George W. Bush is there. And he is vowing that he will not pull U.S. forces from Iraq before they succeed in their mission, he says.

Suzanne Malveaux is covering Mr. Bush's travels and she joins us now with more -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, good evening. Of course, President Bush here in Riga, Latvia, for the NATO summit. The president, of course, trying to implore for European allies to contribute more resources, more troops to the war in Afghanistan. But as you know, all of the focus, much of the focus on those discussions that are going to take place in the next couple days.

President Bush with Iraqi prime minister Nouri al-Maliki, that will happen, along with Jordan's King Abdullah tomorrow. And then those one-on-one talks on Thursday between the two leaders. All of this focusing, of course, on the security crisis inside of that country.

Earlier today, President Bush was asked about the deteriorating conditions on the ground. President Bush refused to call the growing chaos and carnage between warring factions in Iraq a civil war. He said that the bombings in Iraq were part of a nine-month pattern of violence fomented by al Qaeda. The president here, in Latvia, as well, gave a preview of what he expects he and Maliki will cover in the next couple of days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Tomorrow I'm going to travel to Jordan, where I will meet with the prime minister of Iraq. We will discuss the situation on the ground in this country, our ongoing efforts to transfer more responsibility to the Iraqi security forces and the responsibility of the over nations in the region to support the security and stability of Iraq.

We'll continue to be flexible. And we'll make the changes necessary to succeed. But there's one thing I'm not going to do. I'm not going to pull our troops off the battlefield before the mission is complete.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And President Bush, of course, when he's talking about that mission, not only the mission in Iraq, but, rather, a global mission. That is, the war against terrorism. The president trying to use that case to argue, to make the case to European allies that they must contribute their resources to troops, whatever they can, to the war in Afghanistan as well -- Colleen, Michael.

MCEDWARDS: You know, you've got this curious situation. Suzanne, where you've got some U.S. officials now saying, you know, Iraq is in some kind of a new phase. But nobody really wanting to define it, nobody wanting to call it a civil war.

I wonder what officials are saying to you privately.

MALVEAUX: Well, here's the tricky part. I mean, there are a lot of different ways to define a civil war.

There's the political component. There is the academic component. There's the military component. What White House officials, Bush administration officials are saying, is that you don't have a clear-cut case yet of civil war, where you have groups that are well defined, that have a certain goal in mind. So that is why you hear the president talking about al Qaeda being the root of all of this, inciting these two groups to turn against each other. They do believe that it has reached that point where it's a civil war. They believe that there's still a political solution to this problem -- Colleen.

MCEDWARDS: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you very much. Appreciate it, Suzanne.

HOLMES: All right. Iraqi civilians are caught in the sectarian crossfire every day.

MCEDWARDS: They certainly are.

Still ahead on YOUR WORLD TODAY, fear of revenge killing is gripping the streets of Baghdad. We'll take a close look at that.

HOLMES: And next, getting past the misunderstandings between Christians and Muslims. We'll hear from an expert on the subject, the former queen of Jordan.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MCEDWARDS: Welcome back to CNN International.

HOLMES: That's right. You're watching YOUR WORLD TODAY. We're bringing CNN viewers around the world up to speed on the most important international stories of the day and our top stories this hour.

Nothing less than victory. The U.S. president telling NATO allies in Latvia that the U.S. will not leave Iraq until, in his words, the mission is complete.

And spiritual fence-mending. The pope begins his first visit to a majority Muslim nation, telling the chief Muslim cleric in Turkey peace is the basis of all religions. The papal visit, is, of course, overshadowed by Pope Benedict's controversial remarks a little earlier this year.

Queen Noor of Jordan has spoken often about how Islam is perceived in the West and what can be done to limit misunderstandings.

Let's go back now to Hala Gorani in Dubai. She talked recently with Queen Noor -- Hala.

GORANI: Just a few hours ago, actually, Michael. And, of course, you may know that Queen Noor married King Hussein of Jordan in 1978. She was a Christian named Lisa Halaby. She then converted to Islam and adopted the name Noor. I started by asking her about the papal visit in Turkey and the controversy that those remarks in Germany in September caused and created around this region. I asked her if she thought the pope should apologize.

Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUEEN NOOR, JORDAN: What I have found very, very frustrating is that there was a response written to the pope, a letter -- I guess you might call it an open letter -- by 38 Muslim clerics and scholars representing all aspects of our faith. A very thoughtful, reasoned and referenced, if you will, to true Koranic and Islamic teaching, response to the various accusations that were made in that medieval message that the pope quoted.

And that letter was given very little air play while the very strong and sporadically violent reactions were given a great deal of attention in the world media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: So it's interesting to get the perspective of public figures as we travel throughout the region and throughout the world, and who express themselves publicly about Islam and its relationship with Christianity. She stopped short of asking for a public apology and said, "Now we need to move forward and move on from this point."

Another interesting point that she made is that she doesn't think there's a clash of faiths. She thinks there are only clashes within faiths. Listen to another thing she told me just a few hours ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOOR: In terms of the Abrahamic faith, I think we share a common challenge, all of us, whether we're Jews, Christians or Muslims, to amplify the voices of the moderates within our faiths and to combat those -- that narrow band of minority extremists who are insisting on polarizing and dividing within the faiths and among our faiths.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: All right. So there you have it as well. Extremists within the Islamic faith perhaps winning the P.R. battle, according to Queen Noor of Jordan.

I also asked her if it wasn't really the responsibility of what she called the passionate majority within this religion to make their voices heard and she agreed with that. She said, absolutely, there is a responsibility among the leadership and among clerics to talk publicly and loudly about this moderate majority, what she calls the moderate majority within this religion -- Michael.

HOLMES: All right, Hala. Thanks very much.

Hala Gorani there in Dubai.

MCEDWARDS: Well, we continue our close look at these issues. Is religion turning Europe into a house divided? Jim Bittermann traveled to a French city in search of an answer to that question.

HOLMES: Yes. That's coming up just ahead on YOUR WORLD TODAY.

Also, perspective on the pope's trip from a Vatican insider. Joaquin Navarro-Valls live.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And hello, everyone. I'm Tony Harris at the CNN Center in Atlanta.

More of YOUR WORLD TODAY in just a few minutes. But first, a check on stories making headlines in the United States.

President Bush traveling around the world and shoring up alliances. Right now, the president is in Latvia for a NATO summit. He's asking allies to commit more troops to Afghanistan, but the main focus this week, Iraq, and his meeting with that country's prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Tomorrow I'm going to travel to Jordan, where I will meet with the prime minister of Iraq. We will discuss the situation on the ground in this country, our ongoing efforts to transfer more responsibility to the Iraqi security forces and the responsibility of the over nations in the region to support the security and stability of Iraq.

We'll continue to be flexible. And we'll make the changes necessary to succeed. But there's one thing I'm not going to do. I'm not going to pull our troops off the battlefield before the mission is complete.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: The fate of a U.S. fighter pilot in Iraq still unknown. A search is under way. The military says the pilot's F-16 went down yesterday in a field outside Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. STEPHEN HOOG, MULTINATIONAL FORCES, IRAQ: Immediately after the crash, we had both additional fighters overhead, as well as intelligence and surveillance assets. Those assets did observe insurgents in the vicinity of the crash site.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: The military says the pilot was flying in support of combat operations. His name has not been released.

A follow-up on last week's deadly school bus crash in Alabama. Police say the car involved in the accident may have had a bad steering mechanism. A preliminary investigation finds it could have caused the driver to lose control of the Toyota.

The bus plunged 30 feet off an interstate overpass after being struck by the car. Four high school students were killed. Now police say the 17-year-old driver of the car has received death threats.

New developments to report in the death of a 14-year-old Florida boy almost a year ago. This video shows Martin Lee Anderson handled roughly by guards at the Bay County Sheriff's Boot Camp. He died of the next day.

A second autopsy found Anderson's death was caused by suffocation. Today, aggravated manslaughter charges were filed against seven former guards and a nurse.

The FBI opens its own investigation in Atlanta looking into the death of an 88-year-old grandmother. She died in a shootout with police during a raid on her home.

Police said an informant led narcotics officers to that house. But the informant says not so. He claims police told him to lie.

Atlanta's police chief says the informant is being kept in protective custody. He will be questioned by the FBI.

A house explosion in Ohio. Akron firefighters say one man was inside the two-story building when the blast occurred. The man was injured. There is no word on his condition or the cause of the explosion.

Let's get a check of weather now. Rob Marciano standing by in the weather center.

Good to see you, Rob.

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hi, Tony.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: CNN's day-long focus on faith continues. Coming up, an imam weighs in on the pope's trip to Turkey. Stay in the "NEWSROOM" for that.

Meantime, YOUR WORLD TODAY continues after a quick break.

I'm Tony Harris.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MCEDWARDS: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Colleen McEdwards. Here are some of the top stories we're following for you. Iran's supreme leader blames the United States for fueling the violence in Iraq. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei spoke with -- spoke during a meeting with Iraqi president Jalal Talabani. They got together in Tehran.

He says U.S. agents in Iraq are promoting sectarian strife and the situation will not improve until coalition forces leave the country. U.S. President Bush says there will be no U.S. withdrawal of troops in Iraq before the mission of building a stable democracy is complete. The U.S. president made the comments ahead of NATO summit going on in Latvia. Leaders of the defense alliance plan to focus on the security situation in Afghanistan as well.

Well, Pope Benedict XVI began his first trip to Turkey, paying his respects to the country's founder and current leaders as well. He's been taking a fairly conciliatory tone -- the pope saying that Christians and Muslims can work together to tackle prejudice. Muslims remain angered by remarks that the pope made back in September. They were interpreted by some as linking Islam and violence.

Well the conflict over the pope's visit reflects a deep rift in Turkey. Should it face eastward towards its Muslim neighbors or westward towards Europe? Europe itself is dealing with an influx of Muslim immigrants, not all of them willing to co-exist peacefully. Michael is looking into all of that for us now with more -- Michael.

HOLMES: Indeed. Colleen, thanks very much. Well, France is one of the many western European nations grappling with religious divide as evidence by last year's riots. You remember those took place in the suburbs of Paris. Well the historic French town of Dreux near Paris, once represented the heart of Christian Europe. But, things have changed. They've changed dramatically. In fact, over the last few decades, Jim Bittermann now explains how Christians and Muslims in their divided town are slowly learning to get along.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An hour west of Paris, in the town of Dreux, the weekend is about to begin. That means thousands will be answering the call to prayer in half a dozen mosques. And soon, thousands more will be answering other calls to pray in 20 chapels and churches.

You don't have to travel to the edge of the Europe to find religious fault lines. In places like this, they run straight through the community. On one side of this urban area of 45,000 is the royal chapel built by kings who defended their faith against outsiders. But look the other direction, and you see public housing built to accommodate outsiders who were invited here.

BITTERMANN (on camera): It was in the 1970's that things in Dreux changed drastically. Major factories in the area needed workers and thousands were brought in from North Africa. But the newcomers, for the most part, dress, spoke and worshipped differently than traditional residents here.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): That sudden influx over the course of less than a decade, created suspicion, discrimination, and conflict, emotions that locally fueled electoral success for the extreme right National Front Party in the 1990's. But, that was a decade ago. In the years since, the town has fought a major battle led by its mayor against what he calls a reaction of rejection.

DREUX MAYOR (through translator): There are still some problems with job discrimination and some people have trouble accepting the practice of Islamic religion. Yet I believe we have made some important progress.

BITTERMANN: Some of that progress has come with a physical makeover. Individually and individually owned homes instead of public housing tower blocks. More mosques for Muslims. And some of it has come with assertiveness by the sons and daughters of the newcomers. Chafika Ben Ferat believes things have changed for her and her three children, because her generation, born in France, has fought to be accepted in way her parents did not.

CHAFIKA BEN FERAT, DAUGHTER OF IMMIGRANTS (through translator): They must accept us, since we are here now, they have to get used to it and learn to live with us.

OLIVER ROY, POLITICAL PHILOSOPHER: We are witnessing a phenomenon which for me is the future. The emergence, the rise, of a Muslim middle class.

BITTERMANN: One of the city's more famous authors writes often about relations between Islam and the west. For him, Druex is a test case.

ROY: This middle class has an increasing role (INAUDIBLE) with political activities. (INAUDIBLE) for what is going on in France and the rest of the world.

BITTERMANN: And so this ancient town where 500 years ago Protestants fought Catholics, is today a place where Muslim newcomers are trying to find their way in a traditional French community that's attempting to make room. The suspicion has begun to disappear and if not accepted, at least respect is taking its place.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BITTERMANN (on camera): And Michael, on that issue of the ban on wearing veil that caused so much news, created so much news a couple years ago. In fact, the National Education Authority say that this last fall, there was no instance in which any young lady was banned from a school because she was wearing a veil. And that the law was respected. And at least one city a Muslim high school has been created where wearing a veil would be perfectly legal of course because it's a private, rather than a public school -- Michael.

HOLMES: Interesting Jim. Thanks very much. Jim Bittermann there reporting from Paris.

Well, as Europe tries to figure out how to integrate Muslims into society, it's also dealing with the rise of radical Islam. Now senior international correspondent Nic Robertson joins me from Amman, Jordan with more on that -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Michael, many experts are now looking at how the radical Islam came to be where it is today in Europe -- a force for intelligence services really to reckoned with.

When they looked back to track how and when it arrived, the best analysis they come up with is really the beginning of the 1980s, perhaps 1979, with the Iranian revolution.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Just a few months ago, London police rounded up 24 suspects in a radical Islamic terror plot to hijack ten airlines flying from Europe to the U.S. It is the latest in a series of radical Islamic terror plots spreading across Europe.

A year earlier, 52 people were killed when four radical Islamics blew themselves up on London's bus and underground network. A copycat attack two weeks later, again in London, failed. For many in the United Kingdom, the country feels under siege from radical Islamics.

In a rare recent statement, the head of Britain's Domestic Intelligence Service said, there are almost 30 active terror plots and there are 1600 individuals identified who are actively engaged in plotting or facilitating terrorist acts and it's a concern throughout Europe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In France, it's 500 hard-core individuals who may move very readily to terrorism. Whereas, you have approximately 4,000 individuals who are sympathizers.

ROBERTSON: Ramstalk tracks the rise of radical Islamics for the European Union.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cells are also getting younger. They're also involved in more converts. And more woman are moving from a peripheral role into a directly operational role.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most of the plots that have come to light in the United Kingdom have two common characteristics. The first is that the process can normally be traced back to some form of firebrand extremist preaching. Very often to a single mosque.

ROBERTSON: In Spain, the same thing. Hard-core radicals recruiting sympathizers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mainly through face-to-face interaction. By radicalization agents -- mostly, but not exclusively Imams.

ROBERTSON: Fernando Renarez (ph) was a terrorism adviser to Spain's interior minister. The Madrid train bombings two years ago that killed 191, he says, was just an example of radical Islamics expanding their ranks. The movement got its first foothold in Europe in 1980's. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Radical Islam really began and spreading into Europe and gaining currency in 1979 with the Iranian revolution with the spread of refugees fleeing repressive Arab regimes. Radical groups were among them.

ROBERTSON: But it was about ten years later in the mid 1990s when the Islamic anger morphed into action and the attacks first began. This was the bombing of a metro subway station in Paris. Then after September 11, the radicals morphed yet again. Bin Laden's call for a global jihad was spreading. And now, five years later, it's morphing again. Mosques are watched, recruiting in the open more difficult. So they have turned to the internet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Women have become much more involved operationally, and the internet has been a vehicle through which male radical Muslims have been able to get into contact with like-minded radical female Muslim extremists.

ROBERTSON: Also compounding the intelligence service battle to stay one step ahead -- there is no simple profile. Islamic radicals range from the educated to the illiterate. From first to second and even third-generation immigrants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a cocktail, a recipe cocktail of potential trouble ahead as we see increasing differences, increasing segregation, increasing polarization in these societies. And of course, the Muslim extremists are thriving in this environment and of course they are also fueling right-wing extremism.

ROBERTSON: It's taken barely a generation for a handful of radicals to build to today's potentially lethal force. Hardly surprising then, politicians are warning, it will take at least another generation to destroy it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (on camera): And that's really troublesome for the intelligence services. Not only do they see so much more happening on the internet that is for the most part is beyond their scope to trace and to check. They also see a massive growth. In France -- in Spain, for example, there are 100,000 people that are believed to be very sympathetic with the extremist cause. And in Britain, perhaps a similar number, according to the intelligence services. So it's a very big and growing problem that even the intelligence services are struggling to recruit enough people to cope with, Michael.

HOLMES: All right, Nic Robertson reporting to us there from Amman in Jordan.

Muslims, indeed, across the entire Muslim world will be watching the pope's visit to Turkey very closely, indeed. So will we. Colleen, back to you.

MCEDWARDS: We certainly will be, Michael, thanks very much. Well, Pope Benedict is very much stressing the ties that bind Muslims and Christians while he's on this trip. Coming up after the break, we're going to take a look at that. A bit of a history lesson. And some unique perspective on the pope's trip. A very special guest coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back, everyone, to CNN international.

MCEDWARDS: Seen live in more than 200 countries and territories across the globe, this is YOUR WORLD TODAY. And we want to return now to Pope Benedict XVI's closely watched visit to Turkey. From the start of his trip, he's really gone one out of his way to stress dialogue, reconciliation, and the things that Muslims and Christians have in common. For some perspective now on this, we are joined in Rome by Joaquim Navarro-Valls, the former spokesman for John Paul II. He is also a respected historian of the church. Mr. Navarro-Valls, thank you very much for joining us.

Pope Benedict says he wants dialogue with the Muslim community, he says. But I think a lot of people are wondering what that dialogue needs to look like. How he can do this without upsetting people. I'm wondering if you think he's doing what he needs to do on this visit to Turkey.

JOAQUIM NAVARRO-VALLS, FORMER PAPAL SPOKESMAN: Well, let us start with some difficulties. And the difficulties are it's very difficult to single out a common leader for all of Islam. So you've got to try, simultaneous dialogue with many different instances in the Muslim world.

The pope, is the one (INAUDIBLE) in Christianity, (INAUDIBLE) but in the Islamic world, it's difficult. That's why John Paul II, up to a few years ago, and now Benedict, has done so much to get into contact with Muslims around the world, many local leaders, imams, even political leaders, so on, there is such a way that the conversation could start and develop.

MCEDWARDS: There are some people who are concerned that Pope Benedict's harder line views on Islam may break down some of the bridges that were built by Pope John Paul. I'm wondering to what extent you share that concern.

NAVARRO-VALLS: I have accompanied John Paul II for almost 22 years around the world. And I do remember, that in every single trip, in every single country he was visiting, he wanted to meet the local Muslim community. Whether the local Muslim community was huge like in Indonesia or some other places like this. Or even in places are where the local community was very small. The Muslim world, just a few people. Very few people.

That might explain why, when he decided to convey in Italy, in a Asissi, a world meeting of religion, they were present, Muslims from Shia and Sunni communities being there close to the holy father and then eventually praying there. That was the result of this efforts throughout the years. And now Benedict is trying to follow in this path. That will explain in part, only in part, his visit to Turkey. MCEDWARDS: Mr. Navarro-Valls, I want to get your perspective on religion in the world. And whether it's riots in France or the situation going on in the Middle East. Do you believe that there is a clash among faiths?

NAVARRO-VALLS: Well, of course, I have read the very well-known book on this topic. But my impression, that in that book, the main topic was not religion. In fact, were something like culture. Something like that. Not religion as such. For real believers in Christianity and in Islam, the idea of expressing my own religious identity through violent means is almost a blasphemy. The problem is now there is in some occasion -- there are some who try to present religion as something that could be expressed as sort of a violence and using violence as a means for achieving separate ends, but I don't think -- personally, I don't think that this is the core of Islam. And I'm sure it's not the core of Christianity or any Christian (INAUDIBLE).

MCEDWARDS: You know, Pope Benedict made similar comments to that today, and you know, actually spent a lot of time talking about how religions can work together, he said, and yet, you know, there are plenty of examples all around the world of religion fueling conflict, you know, things like terrorists. They're very formidable foes to this notion of all religions happily coexisting.

NAVARRO-VALLS: This something that should be seen, I would say, at a very experimental place. Let us put to use some examples. I've been in absolutely all of the countries in Africa, from South Africa to the Mediterranean coast of the north. And I have seen many places in Senegal, in Sudan and in mostly working together in humanitarian projects, either fighting A-I-D-S (ph) or helping poor women to develop some sort of medical attendance and so on. This is something that I have seen at the very direct level, not just (INAUDIBLE), but something that is happening already.

MCEDWARDS: So you see an example -- please continue.

NAVARRO-VALLS: At the same time, you can see some awful things like confrontation invoking the name of God as the reason for the confrontation.

MCEDWARDS: And what do you think it is that is driving that in today's world? What is the underlying cause where there is that kind of attention and conflict?

NAVARRO-VALLS: It's a difficult question, because it's a question that cannot be answered, cannot be talked about in a very easy way, because you're about to go backwards and study history of religions, and history of different peoples. Certainly, one of the things that the holy father has to stress today in Turkey his first official speech there, in front of the president of the foreign -- sorry, of the religious affairs in Turkey has been two-fold. First thing, it's not (INAUDIBLE) to invoke violence from a religious point of view toe achieve religious means. Second point, no religions, no religion, Christianity nor Islam, should seek in a way direct political power. This is something for politicians, for political practice, not for religion as such. These are two clear principles that the holy father has been very courageous to express today in his speech in Turkey.

So on one hand, the meetings with the Premier (INAUDIBLE) or with the religious (ph) leader there in the Ankara, formerly was very cordial, with a lot of courtesy, but at the same time was very, very clear for everyone listening.

MCEDWARDS: Joaquin Navarro-Valls, thank you so much for your perspectives on these issues. I really appreciate speaking with you.

NAVARRO-VALLS: Sure.

MCEDWARDS: And stay with CNN for extensive coverage of the pope's visit. Anderson Cooper hosts his program, "360," from Ankara, and from Istanbul as well this week.

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HOLMES: All right. That will do it for your world today, although you will be obviously see continuing coverage of the papal visit to Turkey, both here on CNN international, also CNN U.S.

MCEDWARDS: That's right, I'm Colleen McEdwards.

HOLMES: I'm Michael Holmes. See you later.

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