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Paula Zahn Now
Big Brother Watching Travelers at U.S. Airports?; Chaos Reigns as New Mexican President Takes Power; Senator Barack Obama Speaks Out on AIDS Crisis
Aired December 01, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And thank you all for joining us on this Friday night, as we wrap up the week.
There's important news coming in to CNN all the time. And, tonight, we're choosing these top stories for a more in-depth look.
The "Top Story" in crime tonight: spreading poison and fear. Tonight, we know of more people and places contaminated with the radioactive poison than killed an ex-Russian spy. We're going to go in-depth on how widespread the crisis might get.
Then, on to the "Top Story" in homeland security: Somebody is watching you. The government reveals it is keeping score and actually comparing notes about every traveler who enters or leaves the U.S. And some people are outraged about that.
Also: fighting AIDS -- a remarkable gathering that sparked a whole lot of controversy is tonight's "Top Story" in health, religion and politics.
Let's get started with the "Top Story" in crime, the widening investigation and concern about radioactive contamination after the death of an ex-Russian spy. Today, we learned that two more people were exposed to deadly polonium 210. A hotel in southern England was tested for it. And an autopsy was performed on ex-spy -- his name was Alexander Litvinenko -- who died from it.
Matthew Chance has the very latest for us now tonight from London.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Yet another dramatic turn in this increasingly complex poison plot -- this the face of Mario Scaramella, now being treated in a London hospital, after confirmation he too is poisoned with radiation, the kind that caused an agonizing death for his friend, former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko.
DR. KEITH PATTERSON, UNIVERSITY COLLEGE HOSPITAL: Tests have detected polonium 210 in Mr. Scaramella's body, but at a considerably lower level than Mr. Litvinenko. He is currently well, and shows no symptoms of radiation poisoning.
CHANCE: A key figure in the police investigation, Scaramella is the Italian contact who met Litvinenko in a London sushi bar on November the 1st, the day he fell sick. He was once a consultant to an Italian parliamentary commission set up to investigate allegations of past KGB influence in Italian politics. He told Litvinenko he had found a secret Russian hit list that included both their names.
MARIO SCARAMELLA, EXPOSED TO POLONIUM 210: So, I passed him a couple of papers. And I said, "Alex, I'm here also to ask you a comment, because I received an alarm in the last few days from -- from a source you introduce to visit me.
CHANCE: But confirmation he is also contaminated raises important questions. Was he poisoned at the same time as Litvinenko? Was he contaminated through contact with his friend? Or should he now be considered a suspect?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think any of them is possible, really. It seems hard to imagine to me that he got severely contaminated from Litvinenko from any casual contact. So, it seems likely he's mixed up in it significantly.
CHANCE: But what of the contaminated aircraft still grounded for forensic tests? Neither Scaramella, nor Litvinenko went anywhere near them. Someone else must have been involved.
The now completed autopsy is unlikely to answer these questions, nor is it likely to prove Litvinenko's dying claim, that he was poisoned by his longtime foes in the Russian government. In a cruel twist, tests have confirmed Litvinenko's widow, Marina, pictured in the middle, is also contaminated with what doctors say are very small traces of the same poison, intensifying concern that these victims may not be the last.
Matthew Chance, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: So, Matthew, when you talk about these radioactive tracers, is that information getting investigators any closer to the source of this polonium and -- and who might have planted it?
CHANCE: Well, it's certainly making the span of this investigation much -- much wider, Paula. What the British police have been doing is trying to retrace the steps of Alexander Litvinenko, that former KGB spy, trying to come into contact and interview people he may have met on the day that he was poisoning back -- poisoned, back on November the 1st.
But that has led that investigation in all sorts of unexpected directions, of course through this individual Mario Scaramella, but also to Moscow as well. And, so, it is possible the British police could go to the Russian capital to interview people there as well.
ZAHN: How much interest is there in this story in London? I know you had a lot of scared people who were among the 30,000 or so who had flown on airliners that were also contaminated by polonium. CHANCE: I think there is a complete fascination with this story in London. It is -- it's a really incredible thing, when you think about it, the fact that not just this figure, this dissident from the Kremlin that was assassinated, apparently, on -- on British soil, but that he was assassinated with such a -- a method that has contaminated so many people.
It amounts to essentially, one editor said, one commentator said, to an explosion of a dirty bomb on the streets of London. And, so, this is something that is completely fascinating to people in this city and people all over this country.
ZAHN: And have investigators given you any better idea of how someone puts their hands on polonium? We had seen accounts as recently as yesterday suggesting it is pretty easy to track down on the Internet, but that you need to buy $1 million of it, reportedly, to do any damage.
CHANCE: Well, one thing is for sure. It is an incredibly rare substance. And only certain places in the world have the -- certain laboratories have the capability of -- of manufacturing it.
What I'm hearing from investigators is that, once they manage to isolate some of this -- some of this polonium 210, and they can look at it very closely, they can see perhaps where it may have been manufactured. And that may bring up another lead, which could be a conclusive lead, in this very complex investigation -- Paula.
ZAHN: Matthew Chance, thanks so much for the update.
As Matthew made very clear in his reporting, there are still so many questions tonight about polonium 210, and exactly how it can be used to kill someone.
So, we asked Paula Newton in London to get us some of those answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Polonium 210 is one of the rarest and most deadly materials on Earth. Scientists believe this is the first time it has been used as a murder weapon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone has, apparently, deliberately been poisoned with a type of radiation.
NEWTON: Polonium 210 is extracted from uranium, and is highly radioactive. A fatal dose would almost certainly have been generated in a nuclear reactor, under some form of government control. Polonium 210 is the result of a complicated chemical process, meaning it doesn't happen by chance. And nuclear physicists say the amount needed to kill is microscopic.
DR. PAT REGAN, NUCLEAR PHYSICIST: It is a period on the newspaper.
NEWTON (on camera): And it will kill you?
REGAN: If you eat it.
NEWTON (voice-over): What happened to Alexander Litvinenko is a medical first. When the polonium, smaller than a grain of salt, entered his body, it immediately traveled through the bloodstream, and then to his stomach, where it began to kill the cells in his gastrointestinal track. From there, it attacked and destroyed vital organs.
DR. ANDREA SELLA, INORGANIC CHEMIST: The alpha radiation is really dumped directly into extremely soft, extremely sensitive tissue. And that's where major damage occurs.
NEWTON: But, despite the public health scare, polonium is usually only dangerous if eaten or inhaled. It can't travel through skin or even through a piece of paper, much like this experiment with plutonium.
Despite that, scientists say this new form of killing device is very sophisticated.
(on camera): As lethal as polonium is, it is actually pretty easy to transport safely. And, more than that, it is almost impossible to detect, unless you know what you're looking for.
(voice-over): But, now that investigators do know, they're finding that Litvinenko, and perhaps whoever poisoned him, were shedding traces of radioactive polonium all over London, even on airplanes in and out of Britain. And that may be the killer's undoing.
REGAN: That will leave, like, a trail of bread crumbs behind. And you can track backwards and find them.
NEWTON (on camera): So, in a sense, polonium has a significant fingerprint to it?
REGAN: Absolutely, just like a DNA fingerprint.
NEWTON (voice-over): Polonium may not have been the perfect poison. Those close to Litvinenko told CNN, they believe the assassin got the dose wrong. They didn't give him enough to kill him quickly from massive internal bleeding. Instead, Litvinenko's three weeks of chemical torture may provide the police with clues they need to catch his killer.
Paula Newton, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And we're going bring in a "Top Story" panel right now, novelist Nelson DeMille. His latest book is "Wild Fire." But one of his earlier espionage thrillers, "Charm School," dealt with characters who were forced to decide whether revealing a horrifying KGB operation would damage U.S.-Soviet relations. Also with me, former KGB Lieutenant Colonel Konstantin Preobrazhensky -- he was a friend of Litvinenko -- and physicist Andrew Karam, an expert in radiation.
Glad to have all of you with us tonight.
Andrew, I am going to get started with you.
We now know that two more people have tested positive for exposure to this polonium. How much concern is it that that web of exposure will increase to anybody having been near Mr. Litvinenko?
ANDREW KARAM, RADIATION EXPERT: Well, something like this can actually spread fairly easily. But just because you can detect it does not mean that it is dangerous. I can detect polonium probably in my body, if I tried, because it is something found in nature. But just because we can see it does not mean that anybody is at risk from it, aside from, obviously, the man who died.
ZAHN: But, clearly, now that investigators have had these positive tests, that's a very important clue to them finding out who potentially did the original poisoning?
KARAM: It could be.
On the other hand, if it was administered as a fine powder, there may have just been traces of contamination, the same as you might see traces of contamination with, say, baby powder or something. It could be widely enough spread that these people could be some clues, but maybe not definitive.
ZAHN: Konstantin, you knew Mr. Litvinenko, the -- the victim, very well. And I know you have said in the past he was well aware of the fact that he was on a hit list. Did he fear being poisoned?
KONSTANTIN PREOBRAZHENSKY, FRIEND OF ALEXANDER LITVINENKO: Well, of course, he could not predict in which way he could be killed.
But the matter is why Putin preferred to use polonium. Because he's not afraid of the reaction of the West anymore. Putin does not depend on the public opinion of the West. The West can do nothing on Putin -- on Putin and on Russia now.
And, moreover, Putin can cut the oil pipes for the West. That is why he avoided such a great international scandal.
ZAHN: All right. You -- you make it sound, Konstantin, like you're absolutely, 100 percent sure that Vladimir Putin was behind this attack. There are other theories circulating tonight that perhaps it is someone that wants to bring down his government.
Why are you so convinced that Mr. Putin was behind this poisoning?
PREOBRAZHENSKY: Because polonium is something very secret. It is like a ballistic missile. Is it possible to use ballistic missile privately? No. I think it is impossible to use polonium either.
ZAHN: And how would it have been administered? PREOBRAZHENSKY: Well, KGB is a military organization.
It is not the same as CIA or in the British central intelligence service. It a part of Russia. It's a part of Russian army, which submitted to its highest commander, Mr. Putin. In army, all their orders are given by the highest commanders.
ZAHN: Nelson, this is the -- the stuff of mysteries, the stuff of novels.
NELSON DEMILLE, NOVELIST: Right.
ZAHN: How realistic is it that Mr. Putin could have ordered this poisoning?
DEMILLE: Yes. Well, this is...
ZAHN: Which, of course, we have no hard evidence yet to...
(CROSSTALK)
DEMILLE: Yes. But I -- but I do agree Konstantin on this.
This is -- you know, this is very -- a very rare element, obviously. And it's -- it's -- it is Putin sending a message. I mean, this is coming from the highest levels. The KGB, this is their modus operandi. They have killed dissidents out of Russia since the 1930s, when they -- when they killed Trotsky. They have killed, you know, Bulgarian dissidents, Russian dissidents.
They have a -- a special branch in the KGB they will use. They are called SMERSH, which is an actual organization, although made popular by "James Bond," that kill Russian dissidents and other Soviet dissidents outside the borders.
So, you know, you can -- there is another theory floating around, as you said. And -- and Pat Buchanan put it forward, that it looks so much like it is a setup or a frame-up of Putin. But, you know, my theory, as a -- as a novelist, is, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is a duck. This came from the KGB.
ZAHN: Andrew, tonight, I know you don't want to add to the speculation here, but just a quick closing thought on the trace amounts of this stuff you say are found in a -- in a lot of places. How much polonium did you need do to really make somebody sick?
KARAM: Well, it takes about as much as a grain of salt weighs, so, not very much as all.
ZAHN: And...
KARAM: It is one of the most toxic things we know of.
ZAHN: And is there any doubt in your mind that, as we continue to report the story, we will find a wider web of exposure here? KARAM: I would certainly expect to find contamination in more and more places. But I think it is really important to repeat again that people are not going to be at risk. They're not going to get sick from trace amounts of contamination. It is something we can see, but it is not dangerous.
ZAHN: Nelson DeMille, Konstantin Preobrazhensky, and Andrew Karam, thank you all for dropping by tonight.
PREOBRAZHENSKY: Thank you, Paula.
KARAM: Thank you.
ZAHN: Homeland Security is one of tonight's top stories as well. We are going to tell you which airport has a new scanner that can see through your clothes -- yes, that's right -- whether or not you want that to happen.
The government is also ranking everyone who travels across our borders by land, sea or air, and the final score points to whether or not you might be a terrorist. We're going to tell you who knows your score. And here is a hint: It won't be you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: One of our top stories in homeland security has some people absolutely outraged. If you have come into the U.S., or gone out, the government has been watching you, and rating you, and will keep your file for decades. Coming up: Does someone think you're a terrorist?
Now on to the first of our top stories in homeland security tonight.
I want you to see a new scanner that is now being installed at airports. Some people call it a naked scanner, because it actually allows security workers to look underneath your clothes. That's right, right beneath them.
Here's Brian Todd.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At Phoenix's Sky Harbor Airport, the newest weapon in the war on terror that can see through clothes carrying explosives. Already used on more than a million passengers abroad, these special X-rays can catch all kinds of contraband.
PETER KANT, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, RAPISCAN SYSTEMS: Regular weapons, guns, knives, box-cutters and the like, but also unusual types of weapons, explosives, liquid explosives, gels.
TODD: The images will look like this: outlines of the body, not in detail, but weapons and other items do show up. This technology has been very controversial, because, until recently, it was much more invasive.
In August, I went through a so-called backscatter machine. I was advised that, if I didn't want my private areas shown, I should put a metal plate in my pants. I stepped just in front of the machine, turn around. In just a few seconds, the monitor displays my humble contours.
Now, in this test, I am playing the role of a would-be terrorist. I try to hide a plastic lipstick container in my vest pocket. Busted. I sneak a sports drink bottle. Busted again.
How about wires in a sealed sandwich bag hidden in my sock? On the monitor, they show up on my ankle.
But the machines have limitations. When I pour water into a sealed sandwich bag, place it inside my belt line and in a sock, you can barely see it. But one company behind this technology says trained screeners would detect it, and the Transportation Security Administration says they have other methods to detect liquids.
When this came out, privacy advocates called it a virtual strip search. And they're not much more satisfied with the newer technology.
MARC ROTENBERG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND PRESIDENT, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFORMATION CENTER: Essentially, they're putting a digital fig leaf on the image. This protects the image from what the operator will see. But the machine itself can still record all the detail, and store that information for use at a later point.
TODD: A TSA official tells CNN, there won't be any hard drives to store the images, and says no one will have access to pictures without the so-called fig leaf on them.
From one passenger tested on the older machines:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have been through it over in Europe, and I didn't mind.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Now, in Phoenix, an official with the TSA tells us, the machine will only be used if more than a metal detector is required, so-called secondary screening. And, then, passengers will get a choice between those machines and physical pat-downs -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, Brian, that one guy was pretty nonchalant about having done it in Europe. How about the rest of the passengers you spoke with?
TODD: Well, the -- the passengers in Europe who go through this go through it at -- at London's Heathrow Airport. And, according to the manufacturer, actually, who makes this, they are give that choice, between a physical pat-down and these machines. And he says most of them choose the machines. They may not be realizing what -- what is coming out on the other end, as far as the image is concerned, but he says the machines are very popular there.
ZAHN: Brian Todd, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Also ahead...
TODD: Thanks, Paula.
ZAHN: ... in tonight's "Top Story" in homeland security: In the name of fighting terrorism, the government is actually keeping score on every traveler who crosses our borders. In a minute, what goes into determining your score?
And, then, a little bit later on: another "Top Story" we're following about a man who took border security and a gun into his own hands.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Another "Top Story" in homeland security for you tonight: a secret program just now being revealed that will add even more fuel to the debate over protecting your privacy, vs. protecting your safety.
For the last four years, the government has been assigning scores to travelers, to rank them as potential terrorists. And you have no control over whether you're labelled a bad risk.
Justice correspondent Kelli Arena has the explosive details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Whenever you leave or enter the United States by air, land, or sea, you are being rated by the government to see how likely it is that you're a terrorist or a criminal. Computers are assessing everything, from how you paid for your tickets, to what type of meal you ordered, whether you're flying one-way, even where you sit on the plane.
CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: If somebody is, for example, sitting in a window seat, it's less likely that person intends to hijack a plane, because it's harder for that person to get out to do so.
ARENA: This type of information has been gathered for years, but it is now being used differently, as part of a monitoring program that also tracks information on vehicles crossing the borders, also on cargo coming in or going out of the country.
What is more, the information can be kept for up to 40 years. The program, known as the Automated Targeting System, or ATS, was detailed last month in the fine print of the obscure Federal Register. The Department of Homeland Security says, the program is critical for national security, that having the most detailed information possible can help prevent terrorist attacks.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Job one for me is to keep bad people out of the United States. That is what the people of this country expect.
ARENA: But privacy advocates are absolutely incensed, angry because you're not allowed to ever see the government's assessment of you. DHS officials say, for security reasons, the information can never fully be disclosed.
MARC ROTENBERG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND PRESIDENT, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFORMATION CENTER: People should have the right to find out how it's being used. And, if they aren't given those rights, then, I think this program needs to be shut down.
ARENA: Security experts also say, a big concern is that the program will inevitably mislabel innocent citizens as possible terrorists or criminals, and the information can be shared with state and local governments, if you apply for a job, for example, or need a security clearance.
ROTENBERG: It shouldn't be used for any other decision that the federal government might make, other than whether a person can enter the United States.
ARENA: And if there's been a mistake made, good luck in trying to correct it.
ERVIN: Even if someone, somehow, found out that he or she was on this list, there's no means of getting off the list.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: The Department of Homeland Security says that there is a way to correct data in its systems, but you would have to file a Freedom of Information Act request just to find out what is there.
And, even then, you would not get all of the information, because officials say they don't want to tip off terrorists to what they're looking for. Now, DHS says that the new program will be effective Monday, Paula. Until then, the public can comment on this program. One way to do that is by e-mail. The address is www.regulations.gov.
ZAHN: Put it on the lower third there, so people can write it down.
Kelli Arena, thanks much.
ARENA: Good thing. You're welcome.
ZAHN: We are going to put the privacy-vs.-security question to a "Top Story" panel right now.
Joining me now, Dr. Harvey Kushner, a terrorism expert, and author of "The Holy War on the Home Front," and David Sobel, senior counsel of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an organization that bills itself as devoted to defending your digital rights.
Welcome to the two of you. So, Dr. Kushner, let me get this straight. So, the government will be able to track what I eat, where I sit, how I paid for my airline tickets for the next 40 years? Should the government really go that far?
HARVEY KUSHNER, AUTHOR, "HOLY WAR ON THE HOME FRONT": Well, Paula, I think...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: And particularly since I can't access this information myself.
KUSHNER: Well -- well, Paula, we're talking about international flights, people entering this country and leaving this country, not just on the air, but by sea, and by automobile, and by train.
And you're talking about almost a half-a-billion people a year -- actually, 400 million last year. This is a data-mining -- a superb data-mining system. And we collect information for criminals and for potential terrorists.
And, Paula, I want you to know we have stopped hundreds of criminals from coming into this country in the last year. This has been operational quite some time. I think it is necessary. So, we have -- you have a right, when you are aboard a plane, to reach your destination alive.
ZAHN: And that's pretty much, David, the defense that Secretary Chertoff uses when he talks about this program. He wants to keep the bad guys, he says, out of this country. He says it is absolutely critical.
So, if this can help, as Dr. Kushner just pointed out, what is the harm?
DAVID SOBEL, SENIOR COUNSEL, ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION: Well, Paula, I think it is really overkill, I mean, to suggest that tens of millions of innocent, law-abiding American citizens need to have their data rifled through, analyzed by computers, and being -- be assigned a suspicion score that will live with them for 40 years.
To suggest that that is necessary to fight terrorism, I -- I think, is just incredibly overblown. And it is -- it's something I think most Americans, when they become aware of it, as they finally are now, are not going to support, and are -- in fact, are going to be very concerned to learn that this is what the government is doing.
ZAHN: So, you are not willing to concede tonight that this program makes us at all safer?
SOBEL: Not based on the evidence that is before us, which is virtually nothing. The government has made almost no information about this program available.
If, in fact, it has been going on for the last four years, it has been conducted illegally, because the government has not complied with the Privacy Act, by providing public notice of the fact that this system is in place, and how it works, and what rights citizens have.
ZAHN: OK.
SOBEL: And that is a requirement that has been part of our law for over 30 years. So, I...
ZAHN: So, Harvey, I only have time for one last question here. Shouldn't people at least have access to this information, what the government has amassed on you, and be able to challenge the risk- assessment, if you don't agree with it?
KUSHNER: Well -- well, first of all, Paula, he's talking about American citizens. And, out of 400 million people a year, not all of them are American citizens. The far majority are foreigners, and foreign nationals.
And, look, if it is abused, and if people are hurt by this, eventually, it will come out. And then there is access in the courts...
ZAHN: But how will we know, because we are not going to have access to that information? We won't know what our risk assessment is.
(CROSSTALK)
KUSHNER: Paula, we live in a dangerous world. We have to take precautions. This is necessary. If I thought, in any way, that the government was doing this purposefully to hurt people, I would be against it, just as David is.
But this is being done to protect the general public flying and protect the United States of America and our security.
ZAHN: Gentlemen, we have got to leave it there.
David Sobel, Dr. Harvey Kushner, thank you for your -- both of your points of view.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Next, we are going to head south for tonight's "Top Story" along the border, where one man has been fighting his own battle to stop illegal immigration, until he pulled a gun on some U.S. citizens. See what happened to him.
And, then, a little bit later on, a "Top Story" in religion and politics: what Senator Barack Obama had to say about AIDS at a conference of evangelicals today.
We're also going meet a man you probably won't recognize. But he's definitely someone you should know. Before he started his new job today, people were pushing and shoving and getting into fights about it. We will explain when we come back. Please stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Right now, tonight's "Top Story" in the fight over illegal immigration.
Immigration reform went nowhere in Washington this year, but, along the U.S. border with Mexico, the anger over the problem is constantly on the verge of breaking. Just take a look at what happened when an Arizona rancher, trying to protect his own property, ran into a Latino family on a hunting trip.
Ed Lavandera has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RON MORALES, RESIDENT OF ARIZONA: ... has a big D on it.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ron Morales says he just wanted to take his girls mule deer hunting in the Arizona scrub brush, just as his father had taken him.
VENESE MORALES, DAUGHTER OF RON MORALES: We just headed out and were having a really good time with my family and my friends.
LAVANDERA: But the Morales family outing ran headlong into the national immigration debate, when they were confronted by a local rancher doing some hunting of his own.
R. MORALES: Man, I mean, he was just cussing up a storm and screaming at the top of his lungs, that, my dad is just like his f'ing Mexican -- ignorant brothers from -- from Mexico. You're all the same, he said.
V. MORALES: We're not getting out of here alive. We're just going to die right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This it Barnett ranch all throughout here.
LAVANDERA: Roger Barnett was on a self-appointed patrol, packing an assault rifle and a conviction that U.S. citizens need to take the problem of illegal immigration into their own hands.
R. MORALES: As soon as I asked him what his name was, that's when he went back to his truck, and reached underneath the -- his seat, and pulled out the -- the AR-15. It took him three tries to chamber that bullet. And, once he chambered that bullet, he says: My name, my name is f'ing Roger Barnett. And, if you don't get out of here, I am going to shoot you, I am going to kill you.
LAVANDERA: Barnett boasts of having captured 14,000 illegal immigrants in seven years on the 22,000 acres of U.S. border property he leases from Arizona.
ROGER BARNETT, RESIDENT OF ARIZONA: Nobody has ever been hurt or abused, but thousands have been turned over to the Border Patrol to be deported.
V. MORALES: He's just scary. He was just rally mad.
LAVANDERA (on camera): Did he have a gun? Did you see a gun?
V. MORALES: Yes, he had a -- a -- a gun.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): But the family held at gunpoint was born and raised in the United States. And, when local police wouldn't act, they joined with border activists, filing a civil lawsuit, hoping to stop Barnett's patrols and make an example of him.
JESUS ROMO, ATTORNEY, BORDER ACTION NETWORK: Even if you find someone in your land, in these large holdings that are in southern Arizona, who has trespassed, you do not have a right to terrorize them.
LAVANDERA: A jury of mostly white Arizonans did just that, ordering Barnett to pay the Morales family almost $99,000 in damages, even as he denied making racial slurs and accused the family of trespassing.
JENNIFER ALLEN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BORDER ACTION NETWORK: Roger Barnett was their poster child, their call to action. We hope that it has a chilling effect on vigilante activities, not only here in Arizona, but across the country.
LAVANDERA (on camera): We made repeated attempts to speak with Roger Barnett, but he refused all of our requests for an interview. He did say, however, that this verdict will not change what he does, that he will continue to apprehend people who cross his ranch land near the Mexican border.
GLENN SPENCER, ANTI-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION ACTIVIST: Roger Barnett is a great American.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): His ideological followers, like Glenn Spencer, say they support his vision, and won't be deterred by the judgment against him.
SPENCER: He hasn't hurt a -- a flea. And I -- you know, as far as I know, he is not -- he is not a racist.
LAVANDERA: Spencer has started a civilian version of the Border Patrol out of his Arizona home, with employees, high-tech radar, and radios, and a search plane.
He flies so close to the U.S. border, that this federal patrol plane rode his wing to force him back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was about 50 yards -- I could have thrown a rock and knocked out his windshield.
LAVANDERA: And, on the ground, he chases anyone who looks Mexican to him, and warns that folks like the Morales, of Mexican descent, should know to be careful. SPENCER: These people are aware of the severe controversy on the border, right? And they're walking into a hotbed of controversy with a weapon? And they know that they could be mistaken for somebody that has come across the border illegally?
LAVANDERA: Morales' daughters say they have been scared off. They will never hunt in those foothills again.
V. MORALES: I don't like it anymore. I'm really scared just to go out there. I don't like hunting anymore.
LAVANDERA: Ed Lavandera, CNN, near Douglas, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And the one thing we know for sure tonight, the U.S. is going to have to work with Mexico's new president to solve the illegal immigration problem.
But Felipe Calderon has his hands full at home. Take a look at these pictures, as he took the oath of office earlier today, in a chaotic ceremony that included fistfights in Mexico's congress. It was such a mess that Calderon had to slip in through a back door.
You might remember that Calderon was elected by a razor-thin margin, and his opponents have protested the results for weeks now. Well, tonight, Calderon is the focus of this week's "People You Should Know."
Here is Harris Whitbeck.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The new president of Mexico begins his six-year term after the same kind of dispute that delayed the election of George W. Bush in 2000.
Felipe Calderon won by less than 1 percentage point. His opponent claimed he had rigged the election, and demanded a recount. Mexico's electoral court found no signs of fraud. Now Calderon hopes to leave the controversy behind.
FELIPE CALDERON, MEXICAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We must be united in this nation, because only we can beat our true enemies, poverty, delinquency and crime. Divided, we will lose the strength.
WHITBECK: Calderon is a member of the conservative National Action Party. He was raised Catholic, and, like President Bush, opposes abortion and gay marriage.
(on camera): But the two leaders differ on the construction of a border fence that Calderon has compared to the Berlin Wall.
While immigration is a hot issue, Calderon hopes it will not overshadow other matters. CALDERON (through translator): I'm aware of the complexity of the relationship with the United States, of the need to defend the rights of migrants, and of the need to demand more joint responsibility from the Americans in terms of drug trafficking.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: .. welcome the president-elect.
WHITBECK: Presidents Bush and Calderon have met since the election. And Mr. Bush says he will make U.S.-Mexico relations a priority for the remainder of his term.
Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Mexico City.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And still to come tonight: A possible Democratic presidential candidate turned up in one of the last places you might expect today. That makes it a "Top Story" in politics tonight -- next, what Senator Barack Obama told a group of evangelicals while he was talking about AIDS.
That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Right now, we bring you a "Top Story" that we have been following all day, World AIDS Day, and the fight to stop that deadly disease.
Across the world, there were tributes to the 25 million people who have died since the first case was reported back in 1981, and appeals to help the 40 million people now living with the HIV virus.
It was in this spirit that Rick Warren, evangelical pastor of one of the largest churches in the country, invited Senator Barack Obama to speak at an AIDS summit. And despite all the controversy over that invitation, the pastor and the senator did come together today.
And Thelma Gutierrez was there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With an embrace from evangelical pastor Rick Warren, and an enthusiastic applause echoing through Saddleback Church...
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
GUTIERREZ: ... Senator Barack Obama took to the pulpit at one of the country's largest evangelical churches and faced down thousands of political opponents to deliver a message about HIV/AIDS. OBAMA: But if condoms and, potentially, things like microbicides can prevent millions of deaths, then, they should be made more widely available. That's my belief.
GUTIERREZ: The occasion, the Global Summit For AIDS in the Church for World AIDS Day, where the Democratic senator from Illinois stood before 2,000 people, many of them evangelical church leaders from across the country, adamantly opposed to Obama's political positions on abortion and embryonic stem cell research.
(on camera): The event here, which was made to call attention to the fight against AIDS, was nearly overshadowed by debate.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I do have a problem with is the sacred spot of the platform of a church to be taken over by someone who is not only hostile in his view towards God, but is hostile in everything that God stands for.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GUTIERREZ: Rick Warren took heat from some conservative Christians for inviting Obama to speak at the summit. Eighteen angry ministers sent Warren a letter, urging him to rescind the invitation.
But Warren wouldn't budge, saying he invited Obama and the Republican senator Sam Brownback of Kansas to talk about AIDS in the spirit of nonpartisanship.
OBAMA: We must do what we can to prevent people from catching HIV/AIDS in the first place.
GUTIERREZ: Rick Warren and both senators took AIDS tests.
RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE": You have seen the face of compassionate conservatism and the face of compassionate liberalism. And what we have in common is compassion.
GUTIERREZ: But it is this shot of Obama, at the pulpit, holding hands with notable evangelical leader Rick Warren, that worries some Christian conservatives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A photo is worth 1,000 words. And that's really all he needs for his presidential campaign.
GUTIERREZ: USC political analyst Kareem Crayton agrees.
KAREEM CRAYTON, POLITICAL ANALYST: It certainly plays into the very argument that got him on the public radar to begin with, that there is no red or blue America. They're the United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Love your neighbor as yourself.
GUTIERREZ: If Obama is able to reach across the political divide, and attract an evangelical following, analysts say he will have accomplished what few Democrats have so far been able to do.
Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, Lake Forest, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And we're going to move on now to our "Biz Break."
Stocks finished down today. The Dow dropped 28 points, the Nasdaq finishing with a loss of 18.5 points. The S&P lost four points, as you can see, almost, on our screen here.
Home Depot may be a takeover target. "The New York Post" is reporting that two powerful private equity firms may pay as much as $100 billion for the home retailer.
And a mixed bag of news for U.S. automakers -- industry leader GM posted a 6 percent sales gain in November, helped by a surge in light truck sales. But Ford sales plunged nearly 10 percent last month. Chrysler's car sales were up 3 percent.
Beyond the politics of AIDS, there are the facts about the deadly disease itself. Doctors are learning more all the time. Coming up in tonight's "Top Story" in health: Will there ever be a cure?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: We continue now with our top story, World AIDS Day. What is it like to live with the HIV virus that causes AIDS? And how close are we actually to finding a cure?
Joining me now to answer some of those questions, Regan Hofmann. She's one of the tens of millions of people who are infected with HIV. She told her story in "POZ" magazine when she became its editor in chief. And, in Atlanta, senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Glad to have both of you with us tonight.
REGAN HOFMANN, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "POZ": Thank you.
ZAHN: Regan, we should explain you contracted the HIV virus some 10 years ago through a boyfriend. He died.
HOFMANN: Yes. Yes.
ZAHN: Here you are. You have survived a lot longer than some people might have expected you to.
HOFMANN: Yes.
ZAHN: You're leading a healthy life.
HOFMANN: I am.
ZAHN: But what do you want people to understand about your daily struggle and what the last decade has been like for you? HOFMANN: Well, the reason I came forward this year to tell my story about HIV is that people don't believe that this disease can happen to them.
And we're seeing infections among groups of people who perceive themselves not to be at risk, young people, and women, people of color, and even people over the age of 50. I still encounter incredulity when I tell people that I am HIV-positive. They say, oh, but you look well.
I wanted to come forward to let people know that, if you have ever had unprotected sex with a condom -- without -- or, if you ever have had unprotected sex, you are at risk for contracting HIV.
And I also want people to understand that, though this is a manageable disease that can be treated, and, you know, you can -- you can live with it, it is still not something that you can live with easily. And we want to make people aware of this, so that they take precaution, and, you know, use the right measurements.
ZAHN: Give us an example of what it has taken to keep you alive? What kind of medication are we talking about that you have been subjected to?
HOFMANN: I take pills every day. I have taken more than 48,000 since 1996.
ZAHN: Forty-eight thousand.
HOFMANN: Mmm-hmm.
ZAHN: Wow.
HOFMANN: And, you know, compliance is really critical to the effectiveness of the medication. And, so, try doing anything every day, you know, let alone every day for 10 years. It is a challenge.
ZAHN: And one of your challenges, in deciding whether to come out with this publicly or not, is what impact it was going to have on you, because people still jump to conclusions about who you are, what you are. And you were very concerned about being put into a box.
HOFMANN: Absolutely.
There are still misperceptions. We have come a long way, in terms of people understanding that you cannot contract HIV through casual contact. But people still wonder: Oh, you know, was she a drug addict? Did she do something, you know, extreme?
And -- and all I did is something that many, many people do, which is have unprotected sex with someone that I knew and cared about.
ZAHN: And what is so powerful about Regan's story, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, is that we all used to think that at the beginning that this was just a disease of gay men. Put into perspective who all has to confront this...
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I think Regan makes...
ZAHN: ... statistically.
GUPTA: Well, yes. I mean, there are some alarming statistics.
I think Regan makes a really good point. In some ways, we have become the victims of our own success, and seen a resurgence of high- risk behavior in people, because -- because the drugs have worked so well.
But African-Americans in this country, Paula, are -- are the most vulnerable. While they make up about 12 percent to 13 percent of the population, they make up 50 percent of overall new HIV infections.
Also, African-American women are the fastest-growing demographic. Also, it is interesting. You know, it used to be considering an urban phenomenon. And now, in fact, in the South, you're starting to see some of the fastest-growing areas, as well. It's moving from the urban areas to rural areas as well. So, it is changing, for sure, Paula.
ZAHN: How do people treat you? Because the -- the stigma of AIDS is alive and well, isn't it, Regan?
HOFMANN: It is. But, when people get the right information, and when people can put -- can digest what this disease is, they can get their heads around it. And I think that they can be comfortable with it.
You know, it is an invisible disease. It is a virus. It is hard to imagine. And, because the treatment has done so well, people don't show visible signs often of having HIV. So, people know people who have HIV living all around them, but they don't know it.
So, the reaction has been great in my life. And I have to say that I'm really impressed with people's ability to educate themselves and be comfortable with HIV.
ZAHN: Have it limited you when it comes to your profession? Has it limited you socially? I mean, certainly, it has to be an issue every time someone is introduced into your life as a potential boyfriend.
HOFMANN: Yes. Yes.
I have a new boyfriend. And one of my biggest fears was telling his mother, you know? But because, you know, she's an educated person, who was aware of the facts of HIV, she has been very receptive and very comfortable. I think there is still this idea that, you know, people can get used to this idea and get used to the idea of HIV, and, you know, it just takes time, and knowing somebody with the disease.
I think what is important is for people with HIV to have their stories told, so that it is not this, you know, remote thing.
ZAHN: And there is some very important information, when they tell those stories.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, in closing tonight, what do you think is critical for all of us to know about AIDS and how it is spread?
GUPTA: Well, I think one of the most important things, and one of the things that startles me the most, is that a significant percentage of people who are watching your show right now might be HIV-positive, and not know it.
There is a large percentage of people in this country, around the world as well, who simply never get tested. And they simply never know. And they unwittingly pass that virus on to somebody else. The CDC has come out with recommendations, saying, every time you get a physical exam, you should get tested. You should get tested, even if you think there is no way you might have it. You still might.
And it is important for that to happen in order to bring these numbers down -- Paula.
ZAHN: Regan, very quickly, in closing, are you hopeful that there ultimately will be a vaccine that will prevent people from suffering the way you have?
HOFMANN: Of course. And, in the meantime, I hope that we can get the word out, and, you know, increase prevention efforts among people, and make them aware that it can happen to them, and that they should get tested.
ZAHN: Well, we wish you continued good luck.
HOFMANN: Thank you very much.
ZAHN: It took a lot of guts to go public, and -- and talk as openly as you have about AIDS.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, you always have kept us informed of this. Thank you...
GUPTA: Thank you.
ZAHN: ... for joining us tonight.
We are minutes away from the top of the hour and "LARRY KING LIVE." Larry's guest tonight is Lewis Black of "The Daily Show."
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. We really appreciate your stopping by.
We will be back, same time, same place, Monday night. We hope you will join us then.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a couple of seconds.
Have a great weekend. And, once again, please join us on Monday.
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