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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Rumsfeld Memo Reveals his Changing Views on Iraq; John Bolton Resigns as U.S. Ambassador to U.N.
Aired December 04, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, 14 of our troops have been killed in Iraq over the past three days. President Bush appeals to an Iranian- backed Iraqi leader for help to end the violence.
We'll have live reports from the White House and the Pentagon.
And should public schools consider race as a factor in admissions? The Supreme Court hears arguments in a case that could affect millions of our students.
We'll examine the legal and constitutional issues.
All of that and a great deal more straight ahead here tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Monday, December 4th.
Live in New York, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening, everybody.
The number of our troops being killed in Iraq is rising sharply. Fourteen of our soldiers and Marines killed since Friday. The increase in the number of casualties comes at the beginning of what could be a pivotal week for U.S. strategy and policy in Iraq.
President Bush today met with one of Iraq's most powerful Shiite politicians, the leader of the biggest group in the Iraqi parliament. Two days from now, the Iraq Study Group publishes his recommendation for future strategy in Iraqi.
Ed Henry tonight reports from the White House on the president's meeting with an Iraqi politician who has close ties with Iran.
Barbara Starr reports from Baghdad on the latest evidence that Iran's revolutionary guards are trying to destabilize Iraq.
And Jamie McIntyre reporting tonight from the Pentagon on new questions about Donald Rumsfeld's leadership at the Pentagon and the real state of this war in Iraq.
We turn first to Ed Henry at the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the president did meet with that key Iraqi powerbroker today. At the White House on Thursday he'll host British prime minister Tony Blair. All signs that the president realizes the heat is on.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (on camera): Pressure building on President Bush to change course, with judgment from the Iraq Study Group coming Wednesday. So the president is trying to crank up the diplomacy, meeting with key Shiite leader Abdul Aziz al-Hakim to help stabilize Iraqi prime minister Nouri al-Maliki.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We talked about the need to give the government of Iraq more capability as quickly as possible so that the elected government of Iraq can do that which the Iraqi people want, which is to secure their country from the extremists and murderers.
HENRY: More importantly, the president was trying to send a message to the American people: I get it. There needs to be a new direction in Iraq.
BUSH: I told him that we're not satisfied with the pace of progress in Iraq and that we want to continue to work with the sovereign government of Iraq to accomplish our mutual objectives, which is a free country that can govern itself, sustain itself and defend itself.
HENRY: The president realizes the Iraq Study Group's report may be blistering in its assessment of the war. And while sources say the panel will not have a timetable for withdrawal, it may push for a significant number of combat troops to start coming home.
White House spokesman Tony Snow is noncommittal about whether the president will embrace some or any of the report, noting the president is also waiting for Pentagon and White House reviews of Iraq policy. But Snow bristled at a suggestion the president ordered these separate reviews in order to have the political cover to cherry-pick which recommendations to follow.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: You don't understand the president. The president doesn't look for cover. What he looks for is information to help formulate the best judgments about how to move forward.
HENRY: The White House knows that all of the options, from withdrawal to adding more troops, carry risk.
KENNETH POLLACK, SABAN CENTER: At this point in time the situation has deteriorated so much that there probably just aren't any solutions to the problem of Iraq. There are simply choices to be made among these different bad options.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now, al-Hakim did today say that he does not want a regional effort to help Iraq, a suggestion perhaps he does not want Iran involved. That could help the president push back against the Baker-Hamilton commission. One key recommendation expected to be calling for direct U.S.-Iranian talks -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much.
Ed Henry, from the White House.
Al-Hakim is one of the most powerful leaders in Iraq. Al-Hakim leads the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. That is a Shia organization with very close ties to Iran.
The organization also runs the so-called Badr Brigade. It is a militia that has been accused of carrying out sectarian murders. Al- Hakim's movement controls the Iraqi Interior Ministry as well. That ministry, of course, responsible for Iraq's entire police force.
As we reported, 14 of our troops have now been killed in Iraq in the first three days of this month. 2,904 of our troops have been killed since the beginning of the war, 21,921 troops wounded. Of those, 9,847 so seriously wounded they could not return to duty within three days.
Critics of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tonight are raising new questions about whether or not Rumsfeld has been telling the truth about the war in Iraq. Those questions follow the leak of a classified memo that Secretary Rumsfeld sent to the White House just before he resigned.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As Iraq was sliding further into chaos just before the November election, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld dropped one of his famous snowflakes on the White House, a terse to-the-point memo calling for, in his words, a major adjustment in U.S. strategy. In fact, Rumsfeld quoted from his secret missive later that week, right after he'd been asked to step down.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It is clear that in phase two of this, it has not been going well enough or fast enough.
MCINTYRE: In the memo, Rumsfeld ruminated about but stopped short of recommending some radical ideas which he called illustrative options, such as having U.S. troops only patrol where they are welcome and withholding aid from violent areas of Iraq. The kind of tough- love approach advocated by some of Rumsfeld's political adversaries.
In fact, one suggestion seemed like a line right out of a press release from Democrat and vocal critic John Murtha.
"Begin modest withdrawals (taking our hand off the bicycle seat"), Rumsfeld called it, "so Iraqis have to pull up their socks, step up."
This was not the glass half full Rumsfeld that people were used to seeing opening the Pentagon briefing with broad sides against overly negative press coverage. And it has critics fuming that Rumsfeld was either in denial or deliberately disingenuous.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKING INSTITUTION: It basically says the primary architect of the war now knows we're losing and headed for defeat unless things change radically.
MCINTYRE: But to his supporters, Rumsfeld's memo, perhaps his last snowflake, was classic Rumsfeld, always questioning and looking for fresh ideas.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: I always thought the idea that Secretary Rumsfeld did not listen to others or did not welcome different people's ideas a bad rap.
MCINTYRE: Advocates of a major change in Iraq strategy take heart in the idea that if Rumsfeld had an epiphany, then maybe President Bush will too. But they wonder why it took Rumsfeld so long to react to the reality that Iraq was getting worse, not better.
MICHELE FLOURNOY, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: One possibility is that he doesn't want -- didn't want to go down in the history books as someone who never got it, someone who really didn't understand what was happening.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: As for what effect Rumsfeld's lame-duck advice will have on the next moves in Iraq, well, some of his aides are quieting suggesting that perhaps Rumsfeld had a bit of influence when he talked to the Iraq Study Group and say that some of the suggestions that Rumsfeld wrote in his memo may well show up as recommendations from that independent panel -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, there is one reference that whether a critic or a supporter of Rumsfeld, one has to question much of what has been said by this administration. When the defense secretary talks about reducing troops, that puts to the lie the administration's position that they would only make those decisions based on the decision of the generals in theater.
MCINTYRE: Well, Rumsfeld put those out as -- again, he didn't endorse any of those proposals. He...
DOBBS: No, but he did raise it as a possibility.
MCINTYRE: He did, in fact. But he also has said repeatedly that this is not a strategy that they're stuck to, that the key in the military strategy is to adjust to those conditions. And he argues in this memo that that's the adjustment that needs to be made.
DOBBS: But not an adjustment being recommended by his generals?
MCINTYRE: Well, I'm not sure exactly if this is a consensus with the commanders on the ground. They may have opinions that are changing as well.
DOBBS: It seems to be a time of shifting opinions. Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
The president's nominee to succeed Donald Rumsfeld, Robert Gates, today met with leading senators on Capitol Hill. Those meetings come one day before the beginning of confirmation hearings for Gates.
The Senate could vote to confirm Gates by the end of this week, we're told. Not a single senator has spoken publicly against the nomination of Gates, though some say they will reserve judgment pending the outcome of these hearings.
The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, has unexpectedly resigned. Ambassador Bolton decided to quit after failing to win confirmation from the Senate. President Bush today met with Bolton at the White House. President Bush said he was deeply disappointed that a handful of senators had obstructed the confirmation of John Bolton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I received the resignation of Ambassador John Bolton. I accept it, I'm not happy about it.
I think he -- I think he deserved to be confirmed. And the reason why I think he deserved to be confirmed is because I know he did a fabulous job for the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And there is no yet, of course, on who would be chosen to succeed Bolton at the United Nations.
Outgoing United Nations secretary-general Kofi Annan today said Iraq is now worse off than when Saddam Hussein was in power. The outgoing secretary-general told the BBC the Iraqi government has failed to end the violence and Iraq is facing a civil war.
Annan, of course, is a longstanding critic of U.S. policy in Iraq. He said the U.S. invasion of Iraq was illegal.
The commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, General John Abizaid, today publicly accused Iran of driving the insurgency. It is one of the clearest U.S. statements so far that links Iran with the rising violence.
Barbara Starr has this exclusive report from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT, CNN NEWSROOM (voice over): As the Shia and Sunni killings across Baghdad reach new levels, General John Abizaid, the top commander for U.S. military forces in the Middle East, says Iraqi Shia militias are being directly trained and financed by the government of Iran, something the Iranian government has denied.
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: It's clear that money is coming in through their intelligence services, training is probably being conducted inside Iran, through various surrogates and proxies. Iranian equipment is finding its way into the hands of Shia extremist groups. It's hard to believe that that's not a matter of policy from the Iranian government.
STARR: CNN has been the only network traveling with Abizaid. In this exclusive interview, he leaves no doubt about the involvement of Iran in the Iraqi militias that U.S. troops are fighting.
ABIZAID: It's also clear to me that Iranian Revolutionary Guard Quds Force personnel are operating within the country, and operating in a way that does not support stability or the current legitimately elected government of Iraq.
STARR: For Abizaid, this trip into the combat zone comes at a time when the Washington political wars dominate the news, but he is determined to stay out of that fray. This trip has focused on talking to commanders, trying to get a sense of whether they think Iraqi forces will remain loyal to the new government. There is continuing concern about police units in Baghdad.
ABIZAID: As you heard today, in some of the conversations with our various commanders, some of them are very concerned about certain police locations being badly infiltrated, and certain units within the national police not doing their job the way that they should be.
STARR: Abizaid avoids using the words "civil war" but his meaning is clear.
ABIZAID: Yes, I think the concerns about it spinning into a broader conflict are still there.
STARR (on camera): Military commanders here believe Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki will be able to maintain control of the Iraqi army and security forces, which is critical to avoiding all-out civil war. But commanders also say this country is in a period of crucial instability and any reduction in U.S. combat forces still could be months away.
Barbara Starr, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up here, are Democrats putting the illegal alien lobby ahead of the country's border security? We'll have a special report on the Democrats' new push for illegal alien amnesty. Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico joins us.
And Hugo Chavez wins another six years in power in Venezuela, and immediately insults to the United States and our president.
We'll have that story. And was a US Airways pilot justified in ordering six Muslim clerics off his airliner after they acted suspiciously? Muslim leaders say no. Law enforcement officials, we'll tell you what they have to say in our special report up next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A truck driver today was convicted of the deaths of 19 illegal aliens who died while packed in the trailer of his truck. A federal jury in Houston convicted Tyrone Williams on 58 counts relating to the May 2003 smuggling and deaths. Jurors will decide whether he should be sentenced to death.
Williams is the only one of 14 people charged in this case who faces the death penalty. Prosecutors said Williams was responsible for those deaths because he did not free victims or turn on the trailer's air-conditioning.
It looks certain now to be high on the new democratically- controlled Senate's agenda, amnesty. The Democrats will likely try to push through a bill granting a pathway to citizenship for millions of illegal aliens regardless of what the American public wants or says.
Lisa Sylvester has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): With a new party heading up Capitol Hill, immigration will be an early focus next year.
Senator Patrick Leahy, the incoming chair of the powerful Senate Judiciary Committee, in a statement said, "Years of dawdling have worsened our border security and made it harder to fix this broken system. We should not let partisan politics and intolerance continue to delay and derail effective reform."
Translation? Democrats will try again to push through an amnesty bill that would legalize millions of illegal aliens and create a guest worker program.
JACK MARTIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: It's very likely that the Senate would -- would act first because of the fact that they already had legislation passed that had a Democratic majority in support of it.
SYLVESTER: Senator Harry Reid, the next Senate majority leader, suggests the Senate will take action sooner rather than later.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER-DESIGNATE: I have the opportunity as the majority leader to come forward with 10 bills at the beginning of the session. One of those is going to be an immigration bill, one of the 10.
SYLVESTER: But the so-called comprehensive reform could come to a screeching halt in the House of Representatives. Even though the House leadership is now stacked with amnesty proponents, the political landscape has changed. There are now more conservative Democrats in the House.
ROY BECK, NUMBERSUSA: I think you can count on probably at least 50 Democrats voting against any kind of comprehensive amnesty program. And I think you can count on 80 to 90 percent of the Republicans to hold against their president, his amnesty plan.
SYLVESTER: Last year, amnesty provisions passed the Senate and failed in the House. Next year could look a lot like a rerun of this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The vast majority of Americans are adamantly opposed to anything that resembles amnesty. Several political observers say that if Democrats hope to retain the majority in 2008, they may have to reconsider their position on this issue -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester from our nation's capital.
Tonight, 15 members of Congress are asking for an investigation of the case of two U.S. Border Patrol agents convicted of shooting a fleeing Mexican drug smuggler. It is a case we've reported extensively here, a case that has generated outrage over most of the country.
Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean were convicted and sentenced to prison for 11 and 12 years. The strongly- worded letter to House Judiciary Committee chairman James Sensenbrenner said the integrity of the main witness, the drug smuggler, must be called into question.
They also wrote -- and we quote -- "By denying congressional hearings to Ramos and Compean, we are effectively turning our backs on the Border Patrol and the duty we entrust to them to secure our borders."
Agents Ramos and Compean are now free on bond. They are scheduled to surrender themselves to authorities on January 17th to begin serving their sentences.
The wife of a Georgia state senator who went into hiding when she was ordered to be deported will turn herself into immigration officials, according to her attorney. Sascha Herrera, the wife of Georgia legislator Curt Thompson, a Democrat, disappeared last week after federal agents tried to send her back to Colombia.
Her husband, a strong supporter of illegal alien rights, says a mix-up with the mail caused the problem. Her case is being appealed.
Later here, Senator Chuck Grassley joins us. He'll tell us about the shocking loss of over 100,000 U.S. immigration files, a loss that gave tens of thousands of people U.S. citizenship without a proper background check. At least one person with ties to Hezbollah.
And Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico joins me to discuss the case of the illegal alien who took refuge at a Chicago church and sent her 7-year-old son to Mexico to lobby for amnesty before the U.S. -- before the Mexican congress.
Up next here, election victory for the man who called President Bush "the devil." Venezuela's leftist president, Hugo Chavez, pushes his new anti-American agenda and a new socialist future for his country.
We'll have that special report.
And six American-Muslim clerics removed from a flight. Some passengers say the six were acting suspiciously. The religious leaders say they were behaving normally. They're the victims, they say, of racial profiling.
Who's telling the truth? Well have that report.
And a landmark case for the Supreme Court. Should race determine where children go to school?
We'll have that report and a great deal more, straight ahead.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, as expected, easily won another presidential term yesterday, assuring him of six more years to spread his socialist revolution in Venezuela and to try to undermine U.S. influence in the Western Hemisphere.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez celebrating his election victory by insulting President Bush.
HUGO CHAVEZ, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): This is another defeat against (ph) a dangerous empire, for the devil who tries to dominate the world.
ROMANS: The State Department, though, says it looks forward to working more with the radical leader, despite the rhetoric.
SEAN MCCORMACK, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: That might make things a little bit more -- more difficult in terms of the relationship. But that doesn't preclude our being able to work together. At least from our perspective.
ROMANS: Chavez says the U.S. is going to invade Venezuela and George Bush is trying to kill him. And he vows to counter U.S. influence, sending billions to spread what he calls a socialist revolution among his supporters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I would like to send to all our friends in Cuba a revolutionary greeting. Long live Chavez, Fidel and the revolution.
ROMANS: Chavez building friendships with ideological allies Cuba and China, and with strategic partner, Iran. Iranian news agencies today applauding South America's "dislike for the arrogant policies of the United States."
But this election may not be a mandate on Chavez's foreign policy.
DAN ERIKSON, INTER-AMERICAN DIALOGUE: This is mainly about money that's flowing into the neighborhoods. I think a lot of Venezuelans are actually skeptical of Chavez's ambitions to pick fights with the United States.
ROMANS: Chavez spending billions on free health care and education and tightening his grip on power. Chavez widely expected to amend the constitution to allow him to rule indefinitely.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: So how is the United States responding? Well, the State Department vows to work with the democratically-elected government of Venezuela and holds up drug interdiction as an example of successful cooperation. Yet, just three days ago, the director of National Intelligence, John Negroponte, publicly accused Chavez of a "permissive attitude on drug smuggling" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Strong words. What a -- what a robust administration. They've really got their finger on the pulse here.
If you take out so-called free trade for Latin America, I don't know anyone who can even discuss with any detail what U.S. policy is in this hemisphere.
ROMANS: If it's a democratically-elected government, we're going to -- we're going to negotiate with them and try to negotiate with them. They don't seem to want to be drawn into the taunts. He calls the president "the devil." The State Department says, we'll work with Hugo Chavez.
DOBBS: Excellent. Excellent. A mature and reasoned posture.
Thank you, Christine Romans.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Jerry in Mississippi said, "All Americans must understand that illegals are not here to support America 100 percent. They're sending money they earn back to Mexico for Mexico's economy. If they expect to ever be Americans, they must be for America."
We'll see. And Peter in New Hampshire, "Suggestion for automatic telephone receptionist for business: 'For English, press one. For one-way trip back to Mexico, press two.'"
And Heather in Florida, "When are you going to stop hating immigrants? Would you do all the jobs that they do?"
No, ma'am, I wouldn't. I've done quite a few of them.
And I don't hate immigrants. I don't even hate illegal immigrants. But I do believe illegal immigration has to be stopped, and I do believe the only way to stop it is to first secure our borders.
Burt in Arizona, "Lou, 40 years ago if someone gave trade secrets to a foreign country it was called treason. Today it's called outsourcing."
Send us your thoughts to loudobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts here later.
Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "War on the Middle Class."
Coming up next, some of this country's Muslim leaders pulled off on aircraft. Legitimate security concern or discrimination?
We'll have that special report.
And the Supreme Court will decide whether race can decide where your child goes to school.
And hundreds of homes and businesses tonight threatened by fires tearing through southern California.
We'll have all of that, a great deal more, all the latest here tonight.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our top stories tonight: 14 more of our troops have been killed in Iraq. Four of them were killed when their helicopter made an emergency landing in al Anbar province. 2,904 of our troops have now been killed in this war.
President Bush today met with one of Iraq's most powerful Shia leaders, a leader with close ties to Iran. President Bush said the United States is not satisfied with the progress of efforts and the violence in Iraq. That meeting came today as -- before the Iraq Study Group releases its recommendation for few -- future U.S. strategy in Iraq.
Democrats appear determined to push their illegal alien amnesty agenda through the new Congress next year. Many Democrats apparently saying the illegal alien lobby and corporate interests are to them more important than the country's security at the border.
In other important news tonight, 19 people are dead, hundreds of thousands still waiting to have power restored following a vicious ice storm in the Midwest. That storm spread ice and deep snow from Texas to Michigan. Utility crews say their work is being hampered by cold temperatures, ice and brittle trees.
California's Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has declared a state of emergency in Ventura County, where a wildfire is burning at least 10,000 acres. The fire in Moorpark is about 50 miles northwest of Los Angeles.
Yesterday, wind gusts were clocked at up to 75 miles an hour. Nearly 20 homes and structures have been damaged or destroyed. That fire is said to be about 35 percent contained tonight. Full containment is expected sometime tomorrow.
The winds also a problem in Fontana (ph), east of Los Angeles, where 650 acres burned before fire crews could control the blaze.
British investigators in Moscow tonight. And Russian officials, we are told, are cooperating with the British investigators as they look into the death of Alexander Litvinenko. The former Russian spy died in a London hospital after been poisoned with polonium 210.
The detectives intend to interview three Russian men who met Litvinenko the day he fell ill. Radiation experts also plan to test for the radioactive material at the British Embassy in Moscow.
Meanwhile, back in London, officials are checking two more locations, including another hotel, for traces of the radioactive polonium 210 that killed the former spy.
An incident on a U.S. Airways flight in Minneapolis is fueling the debate over when suspicious passengers can be removed from an aircraft. The passengers in this case: Muslims. They say it was religious profiling. The airline has a very different story.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six Muslim men on a U.S. Airways flight in Minneapolis prayed ostentatiously to Allah at the gate. In overheard conversations, spoke of Saddam Hussein. And again before takeoff, began praying loudly. Passengers became alarmed and the pilot had them removed by local law enforcement officers. All that is in the police report.
The Muslim American Society called the incident racial and religious profiling. Friday, they held a public prayer rally in Phoenix across from the U.S. Airways corporate headquarters.
IBRAHIM RAMEY, MUSLIM AMERICAN SOCIETY: We are here simply to declare to you and just declare to the nation that prayer and religious identity are not sufficient grounds for removing individuals from aircraft.
PILGRIM: In a press release, Imam Mahdi Bray (ph) states, "American Muslims will not take a back seat to protecting their liberties."
The Transportation Safety Administration today said the pilot had every legal right as commander of the aircraft to request their removal adding, "The TSA supports the pilot's decision and we helped re-screen the passengers at the pilot's request. TSA officers undergo annual trading of screening individuals of different cultures. We are committed to screening all passengers regardless of religious affiliation with dignity."
U.S. Airways said they do not have a statement. They refer to the police report, a 16-page description of the incident that includes details of odd behavior, such as some requested seat belt extensions, even though they were not overweight. They were reported to be chanting "Allah, Allah" before takeoff.
Some of those details are now being disputed by the Muslim American Society.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (on camera): A local Muslim community is demanding a prayer area for the Muslims at the airport. But the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport says there are areas inside the security area for prayer or meditation already -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right, Kitty. Thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
The Supreme Court today considering what role race should play when deciding where children go to school. The case may offer insight into how the newest Bush appointees to the high court will view the issue of race-based admissions.
Joining me tonight is our senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin.
Jeff, this case -- does it look as though we have any indication which way the court is going to?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: We do. You know, elections have consequences. That was something that was...
DOBBS: I've heard that somewhere.
TOOBIN: ... around this time of the Supreme Court nominations. And I think this case is going to be a classic illustration. There did seem to be, today in court, five justices who wanted to strike down the use of race in grammar school and high school admissions. And that would be a big change for a lot of people.
DOBBS: The idea of using race for any aspect in this society sets off all sorts of alarm bells, all ends (ph) and places on the political spectrum. What is the issue here? I mean, we're talking about redistributing people who are actually in school across -- in the case of Seattle, certainly, and Louisville as well. How can the court judge this any differently than it would the Michigan case, which it affirmed, what, three years ago?
TOOBIN: Just three years ago.
DOBBS: Give us some sense of that.
TOOBIN: Well, what happened here was -- particularly in Louisville. Those schools has been segregated by law for years and years up until the '50s at the time of Brown v. Board of Education. There was a long court case and then after the court case was over, the local community got together and said, look, if we have schools just on the basis of neighborhoods, our neighborhoods are segregated. We'll have totally segregated schools. So what they did is they set a rule that schools had to be more than 15 percent black but not more than 50 percent black. And that was a desire for diversity that they wanted.
DOBBS: But that's all been rolled back now.
TOOBIN: Well, it hasn't. I mean, that's what this case is about, which -- John Roberts said today in questioning, he says, wait a second, you're saying to kids, there are certain schools you can or can't go to simply because of their race.
And the lawyers for the defense had to say yes. And that's something that's going to be hard, I think, for a majority of the court to stomach.
DOBBS: You know, for all of us who are laymen, give us the -- as succinctly as you possibly can, what is the difference between racial profiling, affirmative action and corporate so-called diversity programs?
TOOBIN: They're all very similar. They are basically saying that the government approves giving out certain benefits, advantages on the basis of race because it means that we want diversity and that if you had a completely even playing field where you didn't consider race, you'd have an unacceptable result.
DOBBS: But how does that square up with the Constitution under equal protection?
TOOBIN: Well, that's what the Court held three years ago. Three years ago, Justice O'Connor -- the now-gone Justice O'Connor held for the Court that the University of Michigan Law School could have an affirmative action plan because it's so important that the core of lawyers in the world be diverse, that it's OK if race is one factor taken into consideration in admissions. But that decision may not be long for this world.
DOBBS: All right. Jeffrey Toobin, as always, thanks for the education, the illumination. Jeffrey Toobin. That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe racial profiling, affirmative action and corporate diversity programs are Constitutionally permissible? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results here later.
Up next, Senator Charles Grassley joins me to address a citizenship scandal -- federal citizenship scandal that allowed tens of thousands of people to become American citizens without proper investigation of their backgrounds or clearance.
And the governor of New Mexico joins me. He favors amnesty for illegal aliens. And she's been in Chicago -- in a Chicago church for months to avoid deportation. Governor Richardson wants to change all of that. He joins me to talk about that case as well.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: More now on that outrageous story we reported last week about the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Agency losing track of 111,000 files. As many as many as 30,000 of those people were granted U.S. citizenship besides missing documents and investigations of their background. Senator Chuck Grassley, one of the two senators who requested the investigation that brought the case to light. And Senator Grassley joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. Good to have you here.
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: I'm glad to always be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: This is -- on the issue of illegal immigration, the absurdities never cease to amaze any of us. But this is inside the legal immigration system and it's completely a mess. Why is this going on?
GRASSLEY: Well, could I say one reason why it really points out as being a mess? In 2002, we had a person who was a threat to the United States that got citizenship and the file wasn't even reviewed.
So when a terrorist can have that happen, we know it's really bad. How can this happen? I think that's your question. Basic incompetence of paperwork or the fact that even paperwork exists as opposed to having this stuff on computer where it can be saved.
My general -- we requested the Government Accountability Office to investigate this. And their report that I have with me, if you want to see it, would be -- would say that 30,000 people in this country became citizen citizens without their file even being reviewed. And in 14 offices that the Government Accountability Office went to, they found 111,000 cases of files being lost.
DOBBS: I have the General Accountability Office report here with me, senator. The idea that we have a federal agency, the Citizenship and Immigration Service trying to push through a backlog of, what, six million what are called alien files. They are aliens, people don't like to deal with that sometimes in the pro-illegal immigration lobbying and activist groups. But that's what they are. How in the world did we get in this situation and are they really doing this carefully because they seem to be just wanting to drive this through the CIS?
GRASSLEY: Well, first of all, people maybe are seen as doing a good job, the more people they rubber-stamped to become citizens of this country get here illegally in the first place.
Secondly, the fact that they lose these files and terrorists can become citizens and get into this country, you know there only has to be one mistake. A terrorist has to be right once. We have to be right every time.
And here we've got 111,000 files and 30,000 people becoming citizens that we didn't even get their case reviewed. You can see why it's a threat to our country.
And also getting back to your point, it shows if they can't handle legal immigration, how are they going to give amnesty to six million people that are -- 12 million people that are here illegally if we were to pass such a bill, which I'm opposed to amnesty, by the way.
DOBBS: You're opposed to it. I have to say Senator Leahy today, the incoming chairman of the Senate Judiciary saying "years of dawdling have worsened our border security and made it harder to fix this broken system. We should not let partisan politics and intolerance," Senator Grassley, "intolerance continue to delay and derail effective reform."
Do you believe that the senator has any concept of how he can control immigration that he wants to reform if he can't assure us all that we're controlling our borders and ports?
GRASSLEY: I think a test to that will come next year when we have a debate on an amendment that there can't be any guest worker programs or even any consideration of legalizing illegality if we don't control the borders in the first place. In other words, control the borders in the first place and then look at all these other issues as a next step.
DOBBS: Senator Chuck Grassley, good to have you here. Thank you, sir.
GRASSLEY: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in our poll. Do you believe racial profiling, affirmative action, corporate diversity programs are constitutionally permissible? Please cast your vote, yes or no, at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up here in just a few minutes.
And a programming note, please join us Thursday evening for a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, a town hall meeting, 7 p.m. Eastern. We'll be reporting Thursday night from Buffalo, New York, a city on the frontlines of the war on this country's middle class. That's Thursday, that town hall meeting special at 7 p.m. Eastern from Buffalo, New York.
Up next, this anchor baby paraded around in an attempt to keep the U.S. government from deporting its illegal alien mother. She's hiding -- well, she's not really hiding, she's taken refuge in a Chicago methodist church. Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico has been following the case and is now pleading her case. We'll be talking about that and illegal immigration and perhaps 2008 when he joins us here next. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Up next here on CNN, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Lou. The private and public divide, has the Bush administration been telling us one thing about Iraq while saying something very different in private? A closer look at some leaked memos.
Also, Afghanistan deteriorating. We're going to take you to the frontlines for a fire fight with the Taliban.
Also, murder and politics. We'll find out why the death of a spy in London is leading investigators straight to Russia.
And Jeb Bush in his brother's shadow. But does he have his own plans to come here to Washington?
All that, Lou, coming up in the SITUATION ROOM.
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf.
We've reported extensively here on the case of Elvira Arellano, the illegal alien who took refuge in a Chicago church some three months ago to avoid deportation.
A few weeks ago, she sent her seven year-old son, born in the United States, an American citizen, on a mission to Mexico to win support for her case there. One of those won over apparently is Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico.
The governor joins us from Santa Fe tonight.
Governor Richardson, good to have you here.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON, (D) NEW MEXICO: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Your letter to the president reads in part, "I request you to consider granting Elvira Arellano parole to remain in the United States so that her son may continue to be raised as the great American he has already proved to be."
That's a stout statement for a seven year-old. But I take your point. And why did you believe it's necessary to seek a pardon for her?
RICHARDSON: Well, under our system, you can request a pardon or parole.
DOBBS: Right.
RICHARDSON: And I -- the law is also very clear, Lou. That young man -- anybody born in America is an American. What I didn't want to see was a cleaning lady, you know, one of the -- in a job that is probably very difficult. I didn't want to see this young man not grow up without his family, without his mother. And so I felt that our immigration laws are so out of whack, they're so out of step, that here you have a case where a child is a citizen, yet you're sending their parents away, who may have violated the law. And it makes no sense.
I think what we need to do is fix our immigration laws, tighten the border, but also recognize that there are 11 million of these individuals in the United States. Seventy percent of them have kids, three million kids that are citizens. And if you deport them automatically, Lou, as some want to do, these kids are going to grow up in America without families. It makes no sense.
DOBBS: Yes, I take your point.
Let me ask you this. First, we don't know how many illegal aliens there are. You may have better sources than I do. But the best we can get, somewhere between 11, 12 million, as many as 20 million. When you say 70 percent of them have children, I mean, I can't even imagine how you come up with that statistic because we don't even know how many there are.
But that...
RICHARDSON: Maybe it could be more, Lou. It could be more kids.
DOBBS: It could be more. I'm not sure it's even material as to whether it's more.
But when you talk about dealing with immigration reform, and, as you know, this Democratically led Senate and House is already making it very clear they're going to push for so-called comprehensive immigration reform.
You and I have talked about this. You've declared a state of emergency on your border in New Mexico. You're the first to do so. Why in the world is it inappropriate, bad policy for the United States and for the American people to express, as they have in survey after survey, that they want that border secured, which is necessary to controlling immigration, which is necessary to reforming immigration law?
RICHARDSON: Well, Lou, I think it's very impractical, whether it's 11 million or, as you said, possibly 20, to deport every one of these individuals. So what we need to do, I believe, is continue to tighten the borders, continue to get more Border Patrol. But what we also need, I believe, is a sensible legalization plan. Not amnesty, not automatic citizenship. But, for instance, let this cleaning woman work her way. Let's check her record. Does she pass a background check? Does she embrace American values? Has she learned English? Is she paying taxes? Is her employer credible? And then...
DOBBS: The McCain-Kennedy bill.
RICHARDSON: Yes. Something like that. Maybe it can be perfected. Maybe it can make more sense. But don't let that woman get at the head of the line. Let those that are trying to get here legally go before her.
My only point in writing that letter is I read about this kid. And there's millions of these kids that are U.S. citizens. And if you deport all of their family members, the 11 million or 20 million, they're going to grow up in America as orphans. That's make sense.
So what I would like to do is have a comprehensive act that addresses your concern, border security, that looks at those that satisfy and qualify under our law and then make sense out of a policy that is broken and is -- needs fixing. And this is the way that we need to deal with it, by a comprehensive effort.
DOBBS: Two quick questions: would you support asking President Bush for a pardon for Agents Compean and Ramos, convicted of shooting a fleeing drug smuggler, crossing the border back into Mexico?
RICHARDSON: Well, I don't have all the facts on that. But, you know, I just believe our law enforcement people deserve support. They deserve a day in court. I don't have all the facts, Lou. But it strikes me that if they're enforcing American law, that should be taken into account.
DOBBS: Well, Governor, let me ask you this, because we're curious about 2008. It's getting a little late now. Are you ready to announce you're running straight ahead for president of the United States?
RICHARDSON: Well, I've always said I'm going to decide in January. And I feel, Lou, I had a good year. I got a big re-election margin, 70 percent. We elected a bunch of new Democratic governors. You know, I feel I have something to offer. But I haven't decided yet.
But I know there are a lot of people getting in there and that's fine with me. I think in a Democratic primary, we need a lot of people in there, you know, Senator Clinton, Obama, Kerry, Edwards, let them all get in. Let us all get in, if I decide to do it, and debate the heart and soul of the future of the Democratic Party. I don't see a problem with that.
DOBBS: Not even -- I don't see a problem. As a matter of fact, it sounds like a pretty good way to go about the business of who will lead this nation in 2008. Are you ready to announce? One more chance.
RICHARDSON: Well, no. No, I haven't decided yet, Lou. I've got -- I'm getting my program ready for New Mexico, which includes, by the way, more funds for border security because we're still waiting for all the Border Patrol agents we were promised.
DOBBS: Well, Governor, we thank you for being here, and we appreciate hearing from you as always.
Governor Bill Richardson.
Still ahead, we'll have the results of our poll tonight and a few more of your thoughts. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 69 percent of you say racial profiling, affirmative action and corporate diversity are not Constitutionally permissible.
Time now for more of your thoughts. Many of you are writing in on the citizenship test that's been made tougher.
John in New Jersey saying, "Hey Lou, since our government has made it so easy to break into this country, the least they can do is make the test to stay harder."
And W.B. in California: "You ask if the new U.S. citizenship test should be made easier or harder -- let me ask you, how could it be made easier than strolling across the border and being granted amnesty by the Bush administration and the Democratic Congress?"
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com.
For all of us here, we thank you for watching.
Good night from New York.
The SITUATION ROOM begins now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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