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PAULA ZAHN NOW

Defense Secretary Nominee Robert Gates Faces Confirmation Hearings In Senate; 15 Years After Fall Of Communism Russia's New Super-Secret Spy Agency May Pose Threat; Hip-Hop Star Sounding Off About Queen Of Daytime TV; Search Continues For Missing Father In Oregon Wilderness; Dangerous Postpartum Psychosis

Aired December 5, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. Thank you all for joining us.
There's important news coming into CNN all of the time. And, tonight, we're choosing these top stories for a more in-depth look.

The "Top Story" in the Iraq war: the Pentagon's new man in the hot seat. He started the day by saying, we aren't winning the war. So, what's Robert Gates going to do about that?

The "Top Story" in crime: poisonous associations. The death of an ex-Russian spy exposed a world of fabulous wealth, dark secrets, and deadly grudges. But is Russia's government behind his murder?

And, then, the "Top Story" in entertainment: the rap on Oprah -- why another hip-hop star is sounding off about the queen of daytime TV.

Tonight's "Top Story" is in the war in Iraq and this evening's big surprise on Capitol Hill. Just hours ago, the Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously approved the nomination of Robert Gates for secretary of defense. The full Senate debates the nomination tomorrow.

Today's hearings before the Senate Armed Services Committee left no doubt that lawmakers expect Gates to spearhead a major course correction in the Bush administration's Iraq strategy. And Gates appears open to making some big changes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): This is the headline:

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Mr. Gates, do you believe that we are currently winning in Iraq?

ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: No, sir.

ZAHN: But it's an answer that Gates felt compelled to qualify just several hours later.

GATES: But I want to make clear that that pertains to the situation in Iraq as a whole. Our military forces win the battles that they fight. The situation in Iraq is clearly much more complex than just the military actions.

ZAHN: Gates told the committee that President Bush understands that the U.S. needs to change its approach in Iraq. The hearings were full of talk about taking a fresh look at the situation.

GATES: The president was very direct in saying, both privately to me, and then publicly, that he saw the need for fresh eyes on the problem.

ZAHN: But, while Gates says all options are on the table, he offered no quick fixes.

GATES: It's my impression that, frankly, there are no new ideas on Iraq. Everybody -- the list of tactics, the list of strategies, the list of approaches, is pretty much out there. And the question is: Is there a way to put pieces of those different proposals together in a way that provides a path forward?

ZAHN: Gates told the senators he would consider the recommendations being released tomorrow by James Baker's bipartisan Iraq Study Group, which is expected to call for a gradual withdrawal of U.S. forces.

Gates said, once he's confirmed, he would urgently confer with U.S. military commanders to come up with his own recommendations.

GATES: It seems to me that the United States is going to have to have some presence in Iraq for a long time. But it could be with a dramatically smaller number of U.S. forces than are there today.

ZAHN: Both Democrats and Republicans also asked Gates about the threat posed by Iran.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Do you believe the Iranians are trying to acquire nuclear weapons capability?

GATES: Yes, sir, I do.

GRAHAM: Do you believe the president of Iran is lying when he says he's not?

GATES: Yes, sir.

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Do you support an attack on Iran?

GATES: Senator Byrd, I think that military action against Iran would be an absolute last resort.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: They are not there under duress. They are not there under conscription.

ZAHN: Unlike past appearances before the committee by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, today's session was cordial, rather than confrontational. Gates seems headed for easy confirmation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we're going to get more on today's swift political events and the Gates hearing from three members of the best political team on TV, congressional correspondent Dana Bash, senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, and White House correspondent Ed Henry.

I am going to start with you, Jamie.

So, we heard Mr. Gates talk about the main problems in Iraq being the issue of political stabilization and other political developments that could affect that. But did he offer any of his own solutions to those problems?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, no.

He pretty -- he kept his cards pretty close to the vest. And he's raised expectations, because he basically promised Congress he would consult with them, promised that he would initiate a new strategy in Iraq, while not saying anything about what it would be, other than, as you noted, to say that he would urgently go meet with U.S. commanders.

Intriguingly, he said he thought maybe they would be more candid with him, if he was secretary of defense, than they were when he met with them as a member of the Iraq Study Group earlier this year.

ZAHN: And, Dana, going into this, we heard some members of Congress express reservations about him, particularly when they made reference to his involvement in the Iran-Contra crisis.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Mmm-hmm.

ZAHN: And, yet, we keep on hearing he is going to sail to a pretty easy confirmation. So, what is it we need to understand tonight?

BASH: Well, if you would have asked me that question before today's hearing, I would have said, it's simple, that everybody here in Congress wants change at the Defense Department. And, simply, he's not Donald Rumsfeld.

After today's hearing, I think what senators were saying is that they thought that he proved that he's not Donald Rumsfeld. Specifically, while maybe not he -- maybe he wasn't specific in tactics, as Jamie was just talking about, he was very different when it comes to his approach.

What members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats, complained for six-plus years about is the fact that they have not been heard, and that they have not thought that the Defense Department or the White House, for that matter, has taken them seriously, when it comes to consulting and listening to ideas.

And they felt that, at least in approach, at least in the way that Robert Gates was dealing with Congress, and the promises he was making, even to be bipartisan, that that was enough for them. And that was why even some of the Democrats, the most partisan Democrats, today said that they were simply thrilled with what they heard.

ZAHN: And the other thing, Ed, that struck me that seemed to be pretty disarming on both sides of the aisle was when Mr. Gates said: I don't owe anybody anything.

What does that reveal to us about how he might interact differently with this president than Secretary Rumsfeld?

ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It showed us immediately that maybe this war cabinet at the White House is going to finally have someone who is perceived to be an honest broker by both parties.

As Dana and Jamie have been talking about, Donald Rumsfeld's credibility was shredded on Capitol Hill long ago. And, with that one statement you used at the top of your piece, where he candidly admitted that he believes the U.S. is not winning in Iraq, and agreeing with the question from Democrat Levin, that instantly gave him credibility that Donald Rumsfeld did not have.

And -- and that's going to be critical, because Robert Gates is going to be the chief salesman for this White House in whatever new Iraq policy they create, coming out of the assessment by the Iraq Study Group, but also by the Pentagon. And maybe he will be the honest broker that can go to Capitol Hill, which, again, obviously will be run by Democrats in January, and say, give me three to six months to try to implement this new strategy.

ZAHN: So, Jamie, what -- when you talk to folks at the Pentagon, what are their expectations about how this man's leadership style will impact on the operations of all things military?

MCINTYRE: Well, you know, the general -- I mean, I guess the short answer is, they think it's going to be better, and perhaps more of the same.

He's seen as a very effective manager. He will still exert civilian control over the military. But any change is seen as an opportunity here at the Pentagon to try something different, to maybe, you know, get a handle on what is going on.

So, it's generally seen as a positive. But I would have to say that the people who think that Donald Rumsfeld was hated at the Pentagon, that's not true either. A lot of people had a lot of respect for him. They felt like he did the best he could. But they are looking forward to seeing Bob Gates.

ZAHN: Jamie, thanks so much -- Dana Bash, Ed Henry, too. Appreciate your input tonight.

Now on to someone who knows about the politics and pressures inside the Pentagon. Ken Adelman was assistant secretary of defense when Donald Rumsfeld headed the Pentagon under President Ford. And, since then, he's been critical of Rumsfeld's handling of the war in Iraq.

Welcome back. Always good to see you, sir.

KEN ADELMAN, FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. ARMS CONTROL & DISARMAMENT AGENCY: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: So, we just heard Jamie McIntyre say that the folks he has talked to at the Pentagon view Mr. Gates, if confirmed, as being a pretty positive thing to happen to them.

ADELMAN: Yes.

ZAHN: Do you agree? Is he...

ADELMAN: Yes.

ZAHN: ... going to do anything that differently than Rumsfeld did?

ADELMAN: Yes. He -- certainly, in style and approach and in policy, he will do something different, because he's a calmer person. There will be no pyrotechnics going on. He's very much a consultative person. I worked with him. And he was a delight to work with. He has his own views. And he's not encumbered by the past. So, he can look at things.

I think that, overall, when you think of the secretary of state, you think of the national security adviser, you even think of the president and vice president, they have had their ideas on Iraq. They haven't worked very well, I would have to say. And Gates is the one new factor that comes in here and says, OK, let's shake it up. Let's look at different things.

And he has an enormous credibility to do that right now.

ZAHN: In spite of everything you have just said, though, realistically, how long will it take for him to really put in place a shift in strategy?

ADELMAN: I think it will be less time than you expect, Paula.

ZAHN: Are you talking months?

ADELMAN: No, I would be talking a few weeks or a month.

And why is that? Because he will sit there and figure out what he needs to do. Then, he will just talk to Generals Abizaid and Casey and say, let's do it this way. Any questions about that?

So, he has -- he is the person who controls the forces in Iraq. That's where the rubber meets the road. That's the point of real power in this. And he can tell his commanders. And commanders are very good at telling -- at doing what the boss wants them to do.

ZAHN: Well...

ADELMAN: So, he can change things fast.

ZAHN: It's interesting when you say doing what the boss wants to do.

A lot of people are very troubled that you can't reconcile what he had to say today about the U.S. not winning this war with what the president has been telling us for months and months and months.

What signal is he sending here?

ADELMAN: I think he's sending a signal, Paula, that, the happy talk of the last months and months and months is over, that I think our nation can handle truthful talk, and, even if it's bad news, I think we owe it to the troops to really have straight talk with the American people. And this idea of happy talk that comes out of the administration, I think is insulting, almost, to us, and is something that is not very useful in order to win this war.

ZAHN: Tomorrow is the day we find out the fine details of what's coming out of this Iraq Study Group, which Mr. Gates was a part of. We hear varying accounts, most of them suggesting that the president isn't going to accept a lot of what is going to be suggested.

Can you give us any better sense of what we can expect along that front, and where Mr. Gates may end up standing?

ADELMAN: I think that Bob Gates is absolutely right.

There's kind of a menu out there, Paula, of approaches that you can do. And we have seen a lot of those. I think that idea will be that there has to be a wakeup call to the Iraqi government. They have to peer over and look into the abyss and wonder, is this really their future, the kind of violence, the kind of nauseating, just murder that is going on right now?

And, hopefully, there will be a realization that that is not for them. There will be more training. There will certainly a willingness, a desire to get the American troops out of going back bashing down doors and houses, and more to the periphery for emergency aid, and to see if the Iraqis can stand on their won.

We don't know that. And it may be too late to do that kind of thing, which would break all of our hearts, and certainly let down the troops.

ZAHN: Sure.

ADELMAN: But it may be that is -- what comes out of that. But the pieces...

ZAHN: All right.

ADELMAN: ... will be put together in such a way, under Bob Gates, that I think will be -- give us our best chance to win this thing.

ZAHN: Ken Adelman, we have got to leave it there. Always good to see you. Thank you...

ADELMAN: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: ... so much for spending some time with us tonight.

We are going to move on to tonight's "Top Story" in crime -- coming up next: from Russia with grudges, an inside look at a world of fabulous money, simmering hatreds, where a onetime Russian spy lived, and died from radioactive poison.

Plus: Fifteen years after the fall of communism, that is, how dangerous is Russia's new super-secret spy agency?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back.

Tonight, we have got some fresh developments in our "Top Story" in crime. British investigators are in Moscow, hoping to question a Russian businessman who met with the man you were just looking at there, former spy Alexander Litvinenko, just before his slow and painful death from radiation poisoning. But they have run in a Kremlin wall of opposition.

Let's find out why.

Let's turn to David Mattingly now, who joins us now from London with the very latest.

So, David, what have you learned?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, when detectives from London hit the ground in Moscow, they immediately found that, if they are going to get anything done, it's going to have to be the Russian way.

That means, if they want anyone questioned, a Russian prosecutor will have to do the questioning. If they want someone arrested, the Russians are going to have to do that. If they want someone to go to trial, if that ever happens, the Russians will have to try that person in a Russian court.

This is all because the Russians have something in their constitution that prohibits Russian citizens from being extradited for the purpose of prosecution. Well, while they are there, and what they hope to get done is talk to a number of people, including, first of all, would be Andrei Lugovoy. He is the person who had the meeting with Alexander Litvinenko the day he was apparently poisoned.

They also want to hear from Mikhail Trepashkin, but that could be even more problematic, because he's now in prison, and he will not be able to talk to investigators. That person is important to them, because they want to find out more information from him about a plot to murder his friend that he warned him of several years ago.

So, what we're looking at right now is that a lot of Russian people are here in London, watching every turn of event in this investigation. They are doing so from here, their home away from home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY (voice-over): Like so many Russian exiles in London, Alexander Litvinenko found freedom, in his case, to pursue his anti- corruption case against the Kremlin, without fear of reprisal.

ANDREI NEKRASOV, FRIEND OF ALEXANDER LITVINENKO: Alexander would say that he's a target for his ex-colleagues. But, physically, intuitively, I didn't think he felt himself in immediate danger. I think he -- he thought that he left all those dangers behind, and, here in Britain, he was safe.

MATTINGLY: He also found a large expatriate community that welcomed and supported him, all just a three-hour plane ride from Moscow.

His death has brought a sudden chill to that community, a realization that Cold War consequences could be just a simple sip of tea away.

OLEG KALUGIN, FORMER KGB MAJOR GENERAL: The threat is real. And Litvinenko, well, they found a way to, well, settle scores with him.

MATTINGLY (on camera): This case hits so close to home in London, because it's the destination of choice for so many Russian expatriates. The number of people speaking Russia in the U.K. soars, according to some estimates, to a quarter-of-a-million, most coming here for a better job, a better way of life, without a political agenda.

(voice-over): Others, however, are power players, with deep pockets and big-money interests to protect back on Russian soil.

(on camera): Where is this money coming from?

JULIAN GALLANT, DIRECTOR, PUSHKIN HOUSE: Where any big wealth comes from, there's always an element of mystery about it. There's no -- there's a lack of clarity about it. But it comes through business. It's come to London.

MATTINGLY: Whether that Russian money is from legitimate or criminal sources, it is having an impact on the upper echelons of the British economy. Luxury stores are hiring Russian-speaking salespeople. In real estate, brokers say one of every five houses sold for $12 million or more is bought by a Russian.

But Russians who live here comfortably are not out of reach. A new Russian law lets government security agents track down and liquidate so-called extremists all over the world.

NEKRASOV: Any vociferous critic of the regime is in danger, even if they are in London, even if they are anywhere.

MATTINGLY: Litvinenko and his associates are members of a small group of expatriates who left Russia with secrets many people back home don't want made public. Those expatriates believe they are at risk.

GLENMORE TRENEAR-HARVEY, SECURITY ANALYST: These people will not be so comfortable as they were before November the 1st.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: And, so, many members of the Russian expatriate community here wondering if this crime will ever be solved -- Paula.

ZAHN: It's a very good question we're all trying to figure out. David Mattingly, thanks so much, reporting from London for us tonight.

Now, because of this poisoning scandal, a lot of us are learning a new set of initials -- next in our "Top Story" coverage, Russia's new secret police and spy agency, and why the FSB scares some people just as much as the old KGB.

And then, a little bit later on, the "Top Story" in entertainment: the rapper who says "Get Rich or Die Tryin'" has some scathing criticism for Oprah Winfrey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back to our "Top Story" in crime: the mysterious assassination of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko.

He once worked for the Soviet Union's notorious KGB. Well, after the Cold War ended, it was replaced by a new police and spy agency called the FSB. But, tonight, there are signals that only the letters have changed, that the brutal culture of Russian espionage has not.

We asked Paula Newton to look into this organization that has astonishing power and authority to kill Russia's enemies.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FSB is a Russian blend of the FBI and the CIA. It is respected and feared -- one of its mottoes, any mission, any time, any place.

And a new Russian law now allows the FSB to make that motto even more ominous. In July, parliament passed a law allowing FSB agents to seek and assassinate terrorists or enemies of the state, even on foreign soil.

GLENMORE TRENEAR-HARVEY, SECURITY ANALYST: It's just like the Cold War has returned. Now they can pursue them anywhere and kill them. And this can be ordered by President Putin.

NEWTON: Vladimir Putin has denied he or his government had anything do with the poisoning death of Alexander Litvinenko. But with a sophisticated, rare and hard-to-get radioactive material like polonium 210 as the murder weapon, this former Russian secret agent says it has all the markings of an FSB hit, even if it wasn't ordered by Putin himself. OLEG GORDIEVSKY, FORMER KGB AGENT: Because nobody else can do it. There is only one department which train people how to deal with radioactive poison.

NEWTON (on camera): Russian intelligence services have been blamed for assassinations before. In 1978, there was the case of Georgi Markov, a Bulgarian defector stabbed with a ricin-tipped umbrella as he waited for a bus here on Waterloo Bridge.

(voice-over): Markov was killed by ricin with a dose no larger than the tip of a ballpoint pen -- the dose of polonium that killed Litvinenko, no larger than a grain of salt.

Mark Radice spent months poring over the Markov case for a documentary. Because of the rare poisons involved, he says the similarities to Litvinenko are hard to miss.

MARK RADICE, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: This begs the question, were there many, many more assassinations than we actually realized, because, if you are using such a subtle means, then, how are you going to know?

NEWTON: The Markov case was never solved. The assassin got way. But many suspected the KGB, predecessor to the FSB.

Fast-forward to 2004. Ukrainian presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko was poisoned with dioxin. He survived -- his face disfigured. That was blamed on the FSB.

Russian intelligence officials deny they had anything to do with any of this. But the hallmark of these cases remains. No one has ever been caught.

Paula Newton, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So, if forces inside Russian intelligence can assassinate their enemies anywhere at will, just how dangerous is Russia today?

Let's bring in our "Top Story" panel right now, Nikolas Gvosdev, editor of "The National Interest" and a senior fellow at the Nixon Center. Also joining us is Dill Dougherty -- Jill Dougherty, that is. She used to be our bureau chief in Moscow for many years now. Now she happens to be our U.S. affairs editor for CNN International.

Welcome to the two of you.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: So, Nikolas, we have just heard about this new law that allows the Russian government basically to authorize the killing of anybody perceived as Russia's enemies. How dangerous do you think the country is because of that?

NIKOLAS K. GVOSDEV, EDITOR, "THE NATIONAL INTEREST": Well, I -- one of the real questions is the command-and-control aspect, because all major intelligence services have some authorities to do this. Obviously, we have tried to kill Osama bin Laden on a number of occasions. The Mossad has carried out operations against Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists in Damascus and Jordan.

So, it's less the principle of being able to strike at terrorists overseas, and, more importantly, the question of who is exercising authority. And one of things...

ZAHN: So, who do you think is?

GVOSDEV: Well, this is the -- one of the murky aspects of the Litvinenko case. It's one of these areas where Russian secret service agents, where organized crime, where business interests all come together in a very murky world.

The more that the British investigate into the affair, the more they are turning up very puzzling -- and questioning what's been happening. Mr. Litvinenko, for example, there are allegations now, was he going to be blackmailing Russian businessmen? Did he have a falling out with Mr. Berezovsky? Was he targeted by a hit squad of former agents, who have taken it on themselves to eliminate enemies of the Russian state?

With so much rumor circulating around, I do think it is important to let the British continue with the investigation, to let -- let's get some more facts on table, because, within the last 48 hours, so many different theories have now begun to circulate in Britain, in Russia, in the United States, it makes it difficult to keep track.

And I think we do need...

ZAHN: All right.

GVOSDEV: ... to let some more facts get on the table, before we start jumping to conclusions.

ZAHN: So, Jill, are you confident that the Russians are going to give Scotland Yard and the various intelligence services in Great Britain the help they need in trying to figure out who killed Litvinenko?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN INTERNATIONAL U.S. AFFAIRS EDITOR: You know, it sounds as if they are pretty sensitive about having a police force from another country come in and do something in their country. And that's probably some of that Russian pride, and, also, as was pointed, their laws, you know? So, they will have to deal with that.

The question, I think, now is, is it possible to get to the bottom of this? Because, as Nikolas and everybody else has been pointing out, it's extremely complex. And where would you get this substance? And how would you get it to the person?

And, then the ultimate question: Why Litvinenko, and why now? There were a lot of people who obviously wanted to kill him. He had a lot of information. You know, back when he was a KGB officer, his specialty was corruption. He was looking into corruption. So, he probably had the goods on a number of people. And I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would want him dead.

ZAHN: Sure.

DOUGHERTY: So, it's -- you know, where do you go?

ZAHN: Well...

DOUGHERTY: There are a lot of people.

ZAHN: ... including reports, Nikolas, that would suggest that people wouldn't be surprised if Vladimir Putin wouldn't want him dead, after he went public with allegations that Mr. Putin was having sex with men.

GVOSDEV: Yes. I mean, that's certainly been put forward as -- as one of the theories.

Of course, one of the things that's ironic is that until this poisoning story came into the headlines, the Russian government was enjoying some very positive coverage about its likely ascension to the World Trade Organization.

I think the last thing President Putin wanted when he went to his summit meeting with European leaders was to be discussing this poisoning incident. So it does raise the question of did he have anything to do with this, or are we seeing other people who are acting without authorization?

And a very scary scenario, which is, is it possible to hire people to do freelance operations? And with these types of substances, I think that's something we really have to consider. And again I hope that the British investigation is allowed to go forward to try to get to the bottom of this.

But that's certainly something to be worried about, less about governance and more about the ability of operatives to gain access to substances and then to be able to be available for hire or to carry out missions on their own. I think that's not the kind of world we really would like to see.

ZAHN: All right, we're going to leave it there tonight. Nickolas Gvosdev, Jill Dougherty, thank you both.

Now on to tonight's top story in entertainment. It involves two of the most influential celebrities in world. Coming up, controversy as a rapper accuses Oprah Winfrey of selling out her roots.

And later, an amazing top story about a family trapped in the wilderness since Thanksgiving weekend. Two of them were rescued, by where is the father?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Onto our top story in entertainment tonight, Oprah under fire again by a rap star. In the new issue of "Elle" magazine, not exactly a hip-hop magazine, rapper 50 Cent challenges Oprah, essentially accusing Oprah of selling out to white America. What happens when the star of "Get Rich or Die Tryin'" takes on the star of the most successful TV talk show in history?

Here's entertainment correspondent Brooke Anderson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

50 CENT, RAPPER: I'll break it down for you now, baby, it's simple.

BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rapper 50 Cent is lashing out at TV powerhouse Oprah Winfrey, accusing her of pandering to white women and losing touch with the black audience.

In an interview with "Elle" magazine he takes aim. Quote, "She started out with black women's views, but has been catering to middle- aged while American women for so long that she's become one herself."

He also said "it's even more exciting to the demographic of white American women she's been aiming at to see that she has the exact same views that they have."

CNN reached out to 50 Cent for an interview and was told he has no comment on the matter. This isn't the first time a rapper has blasted Winfrey.

LUDACRIS, RAPPER: I feel like she doesn't respect my opinion. And therein lies the problem.

ANDERSON: Ludacris felt he was mistreated when he appeared on her talk show early this year with the cast of the film "Crash." Talk turned from the film to explicit rap lyrics. But Ludacris says his response to the criticism was edited out of the show.

OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST:: I said to Ludacris, a lot of people who listen to your music aren't as smart as you are.

ANDERSON: At the time, Winfrey discussed the Ludacris flap on a New York radio station.

WINFREY: I think there has to be responsibility with it just like I have to have some responsibility with what I do and say on my stage every day. My point is, you don't have to bitch and hold me down in order it make music.

ANDERSON: 50 Cent maintains Winfrey discriminates against hip hop artists by not booking them on her show, telling "Elle," most of the rap stars are quote, "black if not Latino and are writing from a perspective Oprah no longer identifies with."

BOW WOW, RAPPER: I definitely feel what the rappers are definitely feeling, and you know, it would be nice to see more rappers and more hip-hop guys on that show. ANDERSON: At the Billboard Music Awards, rapper Bow Wow identified with 50 Cent's sentiments. But other hip-hop stars, includes rapper Nas, disagrees.

NAS, RAPPER: I think it's a sad case of trying to be popular on 50's case. If you don't have to make a performer yourself in front of the whole country by trying to disrespect someone we hold so highly up there.

ANDERSON: Even Ludacris has softened since his own public spat with Winfrey.

LUDACRIS: I think people that respect one another can have disagreements and still respect one another at the end of the day. So it's all about reconcile.

ANDERSON: No reconciliation in sight for 50 Cent. Harpo Productions tells CNN Winfrey has no further comment. Brooke Anderson, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So the question is, do you have to choose sides? Oprah or rap? Joining me now, shock jock diva Wendy Williams, sometimes called the queen of urban radio. They should call you that all of the time. You are.

Radio talk show host and the author of "Speak Brother: A Black Man's View of America" and doctor -- or excuse me, Boyce Watkins, author of "What if George Bush Were a Black Man?" Good to see all three of you.

I guess the one thing we're going to disagree is how to pronounce 50 Cent's name. You say?

WENDY WILLIAMS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I say 50.

ZAHN: You say?

DR. BOYCE WATKINS, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: Fitty.

ZAHN: Fitty.

WATKINS: Completely ignorant.

ZAHN: He calls him something else. He's not going to say that on television. So, Wendy, does Oprah have an obligation to support black artists like Ludacris and 50 Cent?

WILLIAMS: An obligation? Well, there are other black artists...

ZAHN: ... Because part of the criticism is she's undercutting them in some way.

WILLIAMS: Well, she's had black artists from the rap genre on her show before. She has embraced R&B and urban music. What we're specifically talking about is 50 Cent and, first of all, he has the right to his opinion.

As ignorant as it might be to many people, including me. You know, I chatter about Oprah a lot on my radio show and it's not always good but there's one thing that you cannot take away from her, and that is her philanthropic ways, her commitment to the human race and who is 50 to say what black is? Oprah is a black woman last time I looked it, all day every day.

ZAHN: But he's basically saying that she has sold out and the more successful she's become, the whiter she's become.

WATKINS: No, I think that what 50 is referring to is actually a general perception amongst a lot of black males. When I talk to black males around the country, I get this feeling that they sort of feel disrespected, disregarded, dismissed by Oprah Winfrey.

And they're further dissed by the fact that she doesn't really want to address this issue. So you can say that Oprah's relationship -- she has had black men on her show, yes, but her relationship with black men is sort of like Hugh Hefner's relationship with women.

WILLIAMS: Dysfunctional.

WATKINS: Right but Hugh likes women if you fit a certain category of women that he can appreciate. Oprah is the same way.

ZAHN: All right, but why does she have to give play to songs where she finds the language misogynist, very critical of women, very degrading to women?

ROLAND MARTIN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Oh, that's not the issue. The issue is very simply they want Oprah to embrace them so they canceled sell more records.

ZAHN: Sure, everybody wants Oprah in their court.

MARTIN: But they are jealous of her platform. But also, there's even a broader issue. That is in black America, it is in many a negative aura when you say an Oreo or somebody is an Uncle Tom. And so, there's sort of this, are you an authentic African-American? And so whether you are Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell, Senator Barack Obama or Oprah Winfrey, you are constantly having to deal with, are you black enough?

But not just them. There are everyday people who are watching right now, who are doctors and lawyers, people are saying, are you black enough? Have you sold out? Have you left the hood? So there is a ghetto mentality that he emphasizes versus the model that she has.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: But wait, but you are saying it's a non issue or shouldn't be the issue that she has chosen not to put these people on her show because she says the language of these songs is terrible. WILLIAMS: Look at Oprah's relationship with men, period. We know she's gone through her molestation. She hasn't had the best run of luck with men. Also, Oprah is not of hip-hop. She is an older woman. She missed the boat with hip-hop. She didn't grow up snapping her neck to the Sugarhill Gang. Oprah, at that point, was a grown woman.

MARTIN: But also, why would she have them on? If they are going degrade women, if they're going to and disrespect women, why should this powerful sister have them on her show?

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: She doesn't have to...

(CROSSTALK)

WATKINS: And you must understand, remember, 50 Cent said I don't care if I'm on her show. I don't want her demographic. So give him credit for that.

MARTIN: You believe that?

(CROSSTALK)

WATKINS: Yes, I believe that. Ludacris, the way she treated him on that show was disrespectful. If you are going to disagree with someone, don't edit out their comments and their response to the things that you say. Hear them out. Someone did that to me on the show and I was upset about that.

So she has to at least give them a fair hearing. The fact is that whether she agrees with 50 or not, a lot of black men feel the way she does, and I think she needs to address that.

ZAHN: All right...

WILLIAMS: But she has. She has. We all now about her relationships with being raped, being -- you know, the married man she had the affair with, it never worked out. The one time she was pregnant, allegedly, and you know, lost the baby...

MARTIN: She can keep ignoring them. She can keep ignoring them. Ignore them, ignore them and hold them accountable. And so if they want to be on the show -- if not, 50, get your own show.

WATKINS: Remember, America ignores black men as a general rule, and I don't think Oprah should contribute to that, and addressing black men as rapists or addressing them as molesters is...

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: But Doc, who's done more for black America, someone who used to sell drugs, or Oprah Winfrey? When I'm looking at 50 Cent and Oprah, I'm saying 50, sit down, you can't represent black America.

(CROSSTALK)

WATKINS: She's got other guys who are doing what 50 is doing, so you can't...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: I've got to move on. Someone's got to pay for this segment.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: You should have worn a black and white striped outfit. You're a referee.

ZAHN: I know, that's what I needed tonight. Wendy Williams, Roland Martin, Dr. Boyce Watkins, thank you all.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, Paula.

MARTIN: Thank you.

WATKINS: Thank you for having us, Paula.

ZAHN: My pleasure.

A top story out west tonight is part survival story, part mystery. Coming up next, the desperate effort to reunite a family lost in the wilderness for nine days.

And tonight's top story in health is a warning that doctors need to pay a whole lot of attention to so we can all, as women, be better educated. It is a problem that many new mothers face all by themselves.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We've got some surprising new details that are unfolding in our top survival story tonight. A San Francisco family's life and death struggle in the wild. It began on the way back from a Thanksgiving trip to Seattle. Jim and Kati Kim and their two young children vanished in the snowy mountains of Oregon.

But yesterday, a miracle -- after nine days Kati Kim and both of her children were found alive. Their story is simply amazing. Tonight, we know how they survived but we don't know where Jim Kim is or if he's still alive.

Thelma Gutierrez has been following this search for the Kims and just filed this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the back of the chopper than rescued them, Kati Kim clutches her baby.

LT. GREGG HASTINGS, OREGON STATE POLICE: The helicopter saw her with the umbrella, waving frantically, saw the vehicle. It was the same color, put one and one together and realized that he had the right equation.

GUTIERREZ: It was a mother's desperate attempt to save her small children, stranded for nine days in their car on a desolate road in the freezing snow.

HASTINGS: I think everyone has been amazed at the fact that they were found alive.

GUTIERREZ: The family's ordeal began the Saturday after Thanksgiving. James and Kati Kim of San Francisco and their two daughters, 4-year-old Penelope and 7-month-old Sabine, were on their way to the Oregon coast on a back country road when their Saab station wagon became stuck in the snow.

To survive, James and Katie ate berries and drank melted snow. What little they had, rice crackers and baby food, they fed to the children. Kati told hospital staff she breast fed both of her kids to keep them alive. The Kims also burned car tires to signal for help and to fend off frostbite.

HASTINGS: Working as a group together to stay warm at night, conserving their fuel, having their engine run every now and then just so they can get the car warm.

GUTIERREZ: After a week out in the wilderness with no help in sight, James Kim set out to look for help. That was Saturday morning.

BRIAN ANDERSON, UNDERSHERIFF, JOSEPHINE COUNTY: We were able to find his footprints up the roadway and then they went into that drainage.

GUTIERREZ: The only thing search and rescue workers have found so far, a pair of pants laying on the ground that searchers believe belong to James Kim.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUTIERREZ: Now, authorities told us a short time ago that they are not exactly sure what the significance of that pair of pants might be. They did tell us that it happened to be an extra pair of pants that James Kim took out with him when left the car and they say he's a resourceful person.

They believe that he may have left them behind to let search and rescue teams know they are looking in the right area, and that's exactly what they are hoping for tonight -- Paula.

ZAHN: I think that's what we're all hoping for. Thelma Gutierrez, thanks.

"LARRY KING LIVE" coming up in a few minutes.

Hi, Larry, who is joining you tonight?

LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, Paula.

Coming up, the outrageously funny Kathy Griffin, queen of Hollywood's D-list. Her first TV interview since her near death experience high about Southern California last week. Anything funny in that?

And what dirt did she dig up backstage at last night's star- studded Billboard Music Awards? All ahead with Kathy Griffin at the top of the hour.

Paula, have you seen her work?

ZAHN: I have. I think she's hysterical. And I bet you that list is pretty long that she drew up last night.

KING: You're not kidding.

ZAHN: I hope she goes through it all for us tonight. Larry, have a good show.

KING: We'll run it down.

ZAHN: We wish her the best.

KING: Thanks, Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks, look for you at 9:00.

Tonight's top story in health is about a very dire warning. Coming up next, new research says that one in 1,000 new mothers is affected by something that is much more dangerous than postpartum depression.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Our top story in health tonight, a stark warning in a new study in the "Journal of the American Medical Association." For one out of 1,000 new moms, postpartum depression spirals out of control into dangerous psychosis. Actress Brooke Shields called it the darkest point in her life, when a mother's joy turns into crippling depression.

Medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen has just filed this report on this troubling new study.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROOKE SHIELDS, ACTRESS: I looked at this child and could not find any type of a bond.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By now, most people have heard of postpartum depression, suffered by Brooke Shields and so many other moms. But a new study says it can get worse, much worse.

TERESA TWOMEY, MOTHER: When I walked back into the bedroom, I saw my daughter on the bed, cut open, blood everywhere. And I thought I had killed her. Because I thought what I was seeing was real. And it's the worst thing I've ever felt in my life.

COHEN: Teresa Twomey actually took very good care of her daughter Arianna, but she kept hallucinating that she'd harmed her.

TWOMEY: I saw myself pick up the scissors and I saw myself cut her open from there down. There was that horrible feeling of just being a horrible mother for even having such a thought. I mean, how could any mother think of hurting her child?

COHEN: But Teresa wasn't a horrible mother. She later learned she was suffering from psychosis, postpartum psychosis.

DR. JULIE RAND DORNEY, PSYCHIATRIST: They developed illusions. They developed fears about their child. So potentially, it's very dangerous.

COHEN: The new study in "The Journal of the American Medical Association" says about one in 1,000 first-time mothers suffer psychosis. Andrea Yates is an extreme example. She said she heard voices and saw visions. She drowned her five children.

Doctors say there are many biological causes of postpartum mental disorders.

DORNEY: The abrupt change in hormones, the rapid decline in estrogen and progesterone, post-delivery, can lead to severe depression.

COHEN: Teresa, a lawyer and now a stay-at-home mom in Connecticut, had never had mental problems before, and her psychosis went away when her daughter was two months old. Her advice: Get help.

TWOMEY: All postpartum mood disorders are treatable, including psychosis.

COHEN: Doctors say medication and family support are key.

DORNEY: One of the things that we look at with women who have -- when they have postpartum depression is that for future pregnancies, they plan. They develop social supports around them. They plan for medication, if that's necessary.

COHEN: Teresa did fine with just family support and didn't suffer when she had twins two years later.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: She was pretty lucky the second time around. So, Elizabeth, help us better understand the difference between postpartum depression, which is very common, and this postpartum psychosis, which is a lot more common than any of us would think it would be?

COHEN: They really are quite different, Paula. Psychosis is when someone actually loses their grip on reality, to use layman's terms. For example, when someone is psychotic, they would see visions, they would hear things that are not really there, see things that are not really there.

Now, one interesting thing is that sometimes when people hear psychotic, they think of violent. Now, if someone is psychotic, they are not necessarily violent. Sometimes they get violent, like Andrea Yates, but not necessarily. They are not the same thing.

ZAHN: Well, I think a lot of people are delighted that Teresa would be so brave to share her really powerful story with us tonight. A lot of women can learn from that as well as their families. Elizabeth Cohen, thanks.

Right now, we're going to take a quick biz break. On Wall Street, the Dow gained 47 points to close just 11 points short of the all-time high. The NASDAQ finished up almost 4 points. The S&P ticked up 5 points.

A hopeful note on the slumping housing market -- the CEO of Toll Brothers, the luxury home builder, says the market may be about to hit bottom after more than a year of decline. Robert Toll sees signs that prices are stabilizing. Still, his company's profits fell more than 40 percent this quarter compared to a year ago.

Get this -- the "Breakfast at Tiffany's" gown just got a whole lot more expensive. The classic -- well, it's actually not a gown but the black -- I guess you can call it a gown -- Audrey Hepburn wore in that film sold at auction today at London, at Christie's. The price tag, $922,000. We don't know who the phone bidder was, but we do know the proceeds go to charity to help India's poor. It's one heck of a price for one dress.

We're just minutes away from LARRY KING LIVE. Larry's guest tonight, Kathy Griffin of the reality hit, "Life on the D-List." She's just survived a very real brush with death. She'll be talking about it tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll be back same time, same place tomorrow night. Have a great night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com

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