Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Missing Couple`s Bodies Found in Car in North Carolina Swamp

Aired December 11, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, I`ll be home for Christmas, heartbreaking words for one family. A South Carolina mom and dad vanish on winding roads from South Carolina to New York, all to be home with their own kids at Christmas. Fifty-five-year-old Diane, fifty-seven-year-old husband Wayne disappear into thin air, the children devastated but leading that search. Tragedy at Christmas, just in. A sighting in the swampy North Carolina woods confirmed. It is the car and bodies of Diane and Wayne.
Tonight, to Florida. The massive search for this baby kidnapped at knifepoint takes a whole new direction. Did human smugglers steal the 1- month-old from his own mother`s arms?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Diane Guay and her husband, Wayne, left their home in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, for a 12-hour drive to see their granddaughter in Ridgewood, Queens. After three days, they vanished without a trace.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We thought maybe they got stuck in traffic, so we kind of just waited until about 9:00 o`clock, and then we realized that something was really, really wrong because she knows my daughter would go to bed at, like, 8:00 o`clock and she was waiting to see her before she went to bed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight. I`ll be home for Christmas -- truly heart-breaking for this family. Just in, a sighting in a swampy wooded area of North Carolina has just been confirmed. It is the car of Diane and Wayne Guay.

Straight out to our reporter tonight, Steve Porter with WRNN radio. He is also a columnist. What can you tell us?

STEVE PORTER, WRNN RADIO: Well, Nancy, all I can say is, first of all, the shock has just hit here because this is what everybody did not want in our neighborhood. And this was a wonderful couple, well thought- of, and we know their children are devastated by this.

I think the thing that -- the only -- the only, well, positive aspect of this is that at least we know what happened. Now, we don`t know how it happened. We know when they left here. They left early in the morning on Thursday. We don`t know what time the accident might have occurred.

I might mention to you that Rocky Mount, North Carolina, which is where the car was found in a swampy area, is just exactly one third of the way to their destination, New York, and it is a favorite stopping place for motorists making that route. It`s many service stations there, many hotels, motels, restaurants and things. Whether something might have happened there that would have caused this to happen, we don`t know.

The way it`s been described by both the police in North Carolina and the reports we`ve been getting from the media, the car ran off the road. And so therefore, you know, that kind of rules out any kind of criminal aspect of this thing. But all I can tell you at this point is that there`s a lot of shock here, but at least the mystery appears to be mostly solved.

GRACE: Unless they were run off the road. Joining me tonight, Steve Porter. He is a host on WRNN radio and also a columnist with "The Myrtle Beach Herald." Just in, a sighting of a car has been confirmed to be that of Diane and Wayne, their bodies found inside the car. Very interesting. They made it that far before mysteriously veering off of the road.

And Steve, is it true that there it were skid marks, that there were markings on the road to suggest they had been -- they had skidded off the road?

PORTER: Well, all I have -- I`ve got a statement here from the highway patrol in North Carolina that comes through the media there, from WRAL, said the vehicle did run off the road into the creek. Now, that`s about as straight as -- it doesn`t say anything about tracks. But you would -- I would presume there`s going to be some evidence of that.

Now, the helicopter people who searched for this vehicle probably even had the very first indication of what happened. It was a helicopter that had been hired by the family to look, and that helicopter had been doing what are called grid searches, back and forth from Myrtle Beach up to that point. And it was in that search that they spotted the car down in the swampy area.

This kind of accident is not unusual in the Carolinas, or in Georgia or Florida, for that matter, because as you may know, alongside many, many roads and highways here there are what we might call gulches or swamps to drain the highway, and cars often run off into such things and the occupants are often drowned. So this very well could have been a not unusual accident.

As far as the car being run off the road, well, Nancy, I don`t know. That kind of brings back memories of the story we had in Florida not long ago, where that family was, as you know, pulled over or shot or something like that. You know, that came to mind, I`m sure, right away. But the initial indications are nothing like that. We`ll just have to wait and see.

GRACE: With me, Steve Porter with WRNN radio and with "The Myrtle Beach Herald."

Also with us tonight, a very special guest, Deputy Chief David Beaty. He is with the Horry County Police Department. Chief, thank you for being with us. I was on the phone late last night with the daughter, and she told me her younger brother had actually had to call the ambulance last night with chest pains over the search for the parents, they were so, so distraught. Tell me about the discovery of the car, Chief.

DEP. CHIEF DAVID BEATY, HORRY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, first I knew of it, we got a call from the state law enforcement division about 5:00 o`clock this afternoon. They`d been contacted by the North Carolina authorities, pretty much describing what you just went over with Mr. Porter.

GRACE: And tell me, was the car underwater?

BEATY: It`s my understanding that it was. We first got the call, they were still trying to recover the car from the body of water.

GRACE: Now, I understand that the overhead helicopters were being paid for privately?

BEATY: Yes, ma`am. That`s my understanding, as well.

GRACE: Now, let me ask you this, sir. Why is it -- and this is true across the country, not just in the North Carolina, but -- and South Carolina, but across the country, very often, when adults go missing, as opposed to children, you don`t have, like, an Amber Alert that we talk about a lot on our show looking for missing children. Those typically are not used for adults. When adults go missing, it`s a very different procedure in searching for them. Explain.

BEATY: I don`t know that I have an explanation for you on that. That`s just the way the -- the Amber system has some very rigid guidelines for utilizing that system. And as far as why there`s not a protocol in place for adults, I don`t know that I can answer that for you.

GRACE: You know what? I don`t know that there is a good answer, Chief. With us, Deputy Chief David Beaty of the Horry County Police Department, telling us the car was, in fact, submerged under water, that car discovered just in the last two hours by privately rented helicopters. The helicopters observed the car from overhead, authorities immediately called. We have confirmed that it does hold the bodies of Diane and Wayne Guay.

Straight out to the lines. Molly in Wisconsin. Hi, Molly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I think you`re wonderful.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. My question is, I read earlier that some valuables were missing from the home. Have you heard anything about that? And also, is this something -- foul play that could have started in the home?

GRACE: Very interesting. I have heard that rumor. Let`s go out to Steve Porter, host of WRNN radio and with "The Myrtle Beach Herald." Steve, have you heard anything about missing items?

PORTER: That`s the one thing that the initial report indicated did not happen. We know that he was a coin collector. That is, the -- Wayne was the -- he was coin collector in the family, apparently, and that he had recently sold about $35,000 worth of coins.

GRACE: Whew!

PORTER: And one of the family members -- it might have been Megan (ph) -- I guess let loose to the press somewhere along the line that they were carrying quite a bit of cash with them, but also some rather expensive gifts. Apparently, these were old friends of theirs. And then there was a family member involved that they were going to see. So that -- that`s one of the original questions that we asked was, Is there foul play, you think, that could have started clear back at the beginning of the trip...

GRACE: Interesting.

PORTER: ... that someone knew that they were carrying something extra with them, but that couldn`t be confirmed. Now, the two children did go back to the house after they decided that something wrong had happened. And they checked the house very thoroughly and came back and said it did not appear there was anything out of the ordinary. But of course, they had no way of actually knowing what was in the car with them.

GRACE: Take a look at this couple, ages 55 and 57 -- 55-year-old Diane, 57-year-old husband Wayne. They set out in the early morning hours last Thursday. Their daughter told me on the phone late last night that they were set to leave around 4:00 AM on Thursday. Why? To make their way back to New York in time to be with their family for dinner on Thursday. We are hearing now that they did not make it. A car has been confirmed to have been found in a swampy, wooded area in North Carolina containing the bodies of Diane and Wayne.

Out to Lisa Edge, reporter with WBTW-TV. Lisa, thank you for being with us. Lisa, what can you tell us about the discovery of this car?

LISA EDGE, WBTW-TV: We know that it was found in a swampy area off I- 95. That`s in North Carolina, in the Rocky Mount area, between mile marker 139 and 140. We also heard that there was a North Carolina Department of Transportation engineer that may have spotted the car. It looked like it may have left the road. We know it was pulled from a swampy area, and it`s confirmed it is Diane and Wayne Guay.

GRACE: Lisa, a lot has made of the reports that they were carrying a lot of expensive gifts, that there had been this $35,000 sale of coins. He was a coin collector. What can you tell me -- I find it very unusual -- had they just left a very popular rest stop or rest area?

EDGE: At this point, we don`t know that. You know, the family has told us the last time they spoke with them was Wednesday night. They were supposed to leave Thursday morning at 4:00 AM. The daughter, Megan, told us that when she was -- around lunchtime, around noon, she hadn`t heard from her mother, she started being -- thought that things were suspicious. She wasn`t sure what was going on. This wasn`t the normal routine. They were a very close family. They spoke with each other all the time. And when she called her mother`s cell phone, it went straight to voice mail. So we`re exactly still, at this point, not sure what happened from the time they left their house until the time of this accident, or this possible accident.

GRACE: Megan Guay, the daughter -- now Megan Guay Leandro (ph), she is a newlywed -- set to be with us tonight. to discuss the search for her mom and dad. Last night, when I spoke to her late in the evening, Lisa, she was in tears. And during our conversation, Lisa Edge, an ambulance came up to the home. Megan had flown down to be with her younger brother. I believe he`s about 21 years old. The brother was suddenly having heart problems, chest pains, in the search for the parents -- the whole family completely distraught. This was to be the beginning of their Christmas celebration. And they never made it Thursday night, and the search has been on ever since then.

I`m very interested to hear their cause of death, Lisa Edge. Did they die of drowning, or do we have any idea that there was some other method of death?

EDGE: At this point, again, we don`t know. The fact they were found in a swampy area looks like, from this engineer`s sighting, that it may have gone off the road. That`s probably likely. But again, we don`t have that confirmed at this point.

GRACE: Back out to Chief David Beaty with the Horry County Police Department. Chief, could you tell me how close this was to a rest stop or to a restaurant area?

BEATY: No, ma`am. I don`t have any information on that at all.

GRACE: You know what? Right, right. You know what? You`re right because you`re joining me from South Carolina.

To Steve Porter. Any idea how close they were to this popular stop area?

PORTER: I wish could I answer that, except that both the police and the media in that area who`ve been out there saying it was close to Rocky Mount and between exits 139 and 140. And to be honest with you, I cannot from memory recall exactly where that Rocky Mount exit is. I know how popular it is. It is precisely four hours from Myrtle Beach, which if they did leave here at about 8:00 AM in the morning, the sun presumably would be up by that time. That would be almost certain.

GRACE: Well, the daughter told me that -- and friends of the family told me that they were supposed to have left at 4:00 AM.

PORTER: Right.

GRACE: And the daughter and the friends of the family weren`t terribly sure if they actually made it off at 4 AM. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do know they were traveling with a lot of the presents. And they travel with cash. You know, they don`t use credit cards, ATM cards, debit cards, things of that nature. You know, we do know that my dad is an avid coin collector, so he does sometimes, you know, make different transactions, so he might have extra money or even coins on him. You don`t know if anyone knew this, you know, if this is even an issue. But at this point, we really don`t know what to think.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No answers. Nobody`s assigned. Nobody`s assigned. Nobody`s assigned yet. (INAUDIBLE) somebody`s assigned. Was it the weekend? Well, he`s not in because it`s the weekend. He`ll be back on Monday. And these are the answers that we`re getting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, if it was their parents laying there, I`m sure that they would have been a lot quicker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The earliest we tried to reach her on Thursday was noon, and we already couldn`t get through to her. It already went straight to voice mail. I just said to my mom, Have a safe trip. You know, actually, I said it twice to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As you can see, the family home decorated for Christmas. This was to have been the beginning of their family Christmas celebration, 55- year-old Diane, 57-year-old husband, Wayne, making the trek from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, all the way up to New York to see their family, to be with their own kids at Christmastime.

Out to the lines. Catrina in California. Hi, Catrina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First I want to say how sorry I am to hear about the couple here.

GRACE: Thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- I`m wondering about that area, if there was a lot of rain that night, and if that`s a very foggy area, because I`m wondering, if it was really foggy, maybe they just went off the road.

GRACE: I`m wondering that, too. Mike Brooks is with us, former D.C. cop and former fed with the FBI. Mike, bring us up to date.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, I don`t know what the exact weather conditions were, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, it`s around a swamp. Of course it`s going to be foggy.

BROOKS: Yes, it is. But I`ve been through that area both in a car and on my motorcycle, going back and forth from D.C., and there are some rural areas along there.

But what the North Carolina highway patrol will do, they will go back and they will -- when there`s any kind of death involved along (INAUDIBLE) along 95, they do an accident reconstruction. They will look in to see whether there was any animal involved, maybe an animal ran in front of the car, whether or not the driver might have fallen asleep, whether there was any kind of medical condition, that will be found out during the autopsy. They`ll also go back to see if this person had stopped at any other rest stops. There are some large truck stops in that Rocky Mount area.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, I would rather walk on one leg than pull over late at night on the interstate on one of these rest stops. Have you looked at the crime rate at rest stops?

BROOKS: There are some crime at rest stops, Nancy, but...

GRACE: Yes.

BROOKS: ... at this time, if they were -- if they had left there at 4:00 -- and it sounds like these people -- he was a department of sanitation worker, used to getting up fairly early, most likely. And this sounds like they`ve been doing this trip for five-and-a-half years. So they probably had their routine. And they`ll take a look and find out exactly what they did.

GRACE: Fifty-seven and fifty-five is young, Mike Brooks.

BROOKS: Yes, it is.

GRACE: The suggestion that they`re traveling with a lot of expensive stuff in the car, there`s $35,000 sale of coins, allegedly having some of that in the car -- I`m very suspicious. I want to find out about the cause of death.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

GRACE: And with us when we come back, medical examiner Dr. Jonathan Arden.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." One year ago today, the greatest Christmas gift ever. Eric Guzman, just 1-month-old last December when a deadly high-rise apartment fire nearly claimed the baby`s life. It was all during a raging Bronx apartment blaze. Eric`s mother, desperate, tossed her son from their third story to save his life, right into the arms of a Christmastime hero, Felix Vazquez, Vazquez a hard-working man who rushed to the scene when mom screamed for help. Tonight, we honor Christmas hero Felix Vazquez. Merry Christmas!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just said to my mom, Have a safe trip. And actually, I said it twice to her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was Wednesday night. It was the last time Jessica (ph) Guay, knew her parents, Diane and Wayne Guay, were safe. The couple left their Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, home around 4:00 AM Thursday morning to begin the long drive up I-95 to Queens. They were supposed to be here for an early Christmas celebration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Fifty-five-year-old Diane, fifty-seven-year-old husband, Wayne, disappeared into thin air. Just confirmed, a vehicle found in a swampy North Carolina area does contain their bodies.

Out to Lisa Edge. Lisa, what is this about a 911 call on Thursday?

EDGE: Right. We just got an e-mail, Nancy -- an e-mail from North Carolina officials saying on Thursday at 7:29, there was a call made to 911 in Nash (ph) County, saying there was a traffic collision in that same area. EMS and fire officials got out to that scene, but they weren`t able to find anything. So there is a possibility that this could have been a tragic accident.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we called my mother`s cell phone, it goes directly to her voice mail. My mother always leaves her voice -- her cell phone on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is like a nightmare I`m going through! I just want to wake up from it!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: They had planned to be home for Christmas. They didn`t make it. Fifty-five-year-old Diane, fifty-seven-year-old husband, Wayne, seemingly disappeared into thin air. Tonight, confirmation their car and bodies have been found. I want to know that cause of death.

To you, Lisa Edge, reporter with WBTW. That didn`t even make sense! A collision? A collision means a smash-up, a bang-up. With who? What, where, when, why? In the same area as their car is found? Well, what happened to the other person?

EDGE: I`m not sure, Nancy. We just got the information there was a 911 call saying there was some kind of car accident. When emergency officials got onto the scene, they were unable to locate their car or anything else in that area. So at this point, we`re not sure if the two are linked, but we do know now that a 911 call was made for a traffic collision in that same area.

GRACE: Don`t like it, Marc Klaas!

MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: No, I don`t like it, either. My condolence to the family. I can tell you that Megan was very anxious this morning when I spoke to her, not only about the fact that her parents hadn`t been found but about the fact that law enforcement had seemingly ignored all of their pleas to get involved in this case. There had been no interviews done. There apparently had been no investigation done. In fact, it was even the family`s helicopter, for the second time in a week, that had to locate the victims.

And one has to wonder, Nancy, at what point do we start questioning why we`re paying taxes, if our agencies that are the recipients of these taxes are not able to serve the public.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Relatives in South Carolina posted flyers this weekend amid fears the couple may have been carjacked. They left home in this white four-door Mazda. Wayne is a retired New York City sanitation worker, Dianne a former teacher`s aide. Adding to the mystery, the fact that their credit cards and debit cards have not been used, and Dianne`s cellphone was apparently switched off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, if they were more than an hour late, she would have definitely called. If they`re late three days -- we`ve called every hospital we can think of along the way. Nobody`s heard from them. You know, just having people drive up and down random roads looking for a car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And we are expecting a live presser at any moment; we plan to take you there live. This is the mike setup outside the home. As soon as that starts, we`ll take you there.

The bodies of 55-year-old Dianne and her husband, Wayne, now confirmed in a North Carolina swampy and wooded area. Out to Jonathan Arden, medical examiner.

Dr. Arden, a lot of things are not fitting together, such as we`ve just learned from Lisa Edge, joining us from WBTW-TV, that there was a 911 call regarding a car collision in the same area around the same time. This couple would have been there.

We also know that there had been concerns by their family from the amount of money and valuables they were carrying. And now suddenly they turn up dead? How can we determine cause of death if they`ve been submerged in water?

JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think you`re looking at two major possibilities and cause of death here. You have the circumstance of the car going off the highway into the swampy area and apparently being submerged. So the first thing comes to mind is: Are there any blunt impact injuries from the collision?

And you`d want to look at the injuries to the body. Even if they`ve been submerged, the broken bones, the bleeding will still be things that the medical examiner can detect and interpret.

You also want to correlate that with the vehicle itself. There may be damage to the car. There may be airbag deployment, anything like that. The other thing you have to worry about, of course, is drowning. They`re underwater.

GRACE: We also know that the dad is a diabetic. How does that play in, Doctor?

ARDEN: I don`t think that will actually play any major role in this. From what I`ve learned, he was apparently taking oral medications, which is the adult onset or Type II type of diabetes, probably not enough time here in terms of the crash and the time that they were either submerged or missing or that this would have any effect on him.

GRACE: With us, Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner.

Now joining us by phone, Shane Duffy, the chief pilot with Executive Helicopters, privately retained to lead the search. He spotted the Guays` car.

Mr. Duffy, thank you for being with us. What happened?

SHANE DUFFY, CHIEF PILOT, EXECUTIVE HELICOPTERS: You`re welcome. We were contacted by the Guays yesterday evening, and they asked if we could possibly do them the favor of doing a search for them. And we immediately got into action trying to, you know, help as best we could. Obviously, it`s a grave situation.

GRACE: How did you spot the car?

DUFFY: I`m not sure that we can actually take full credit for spotting the car. At the same time that we arrived searching the area, a state trooper also pulled up, obviously probably seeing the skid marks leading off the side of the road.

GRACE: So there were skid marks?

DUFFY: There weren`t any black marks on the asphalt, but from the air it was visible, tire tracks leaving the road surface going into the swampy area, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And what did you see?

DUFFY: It was hard to make out at first. We orbited around the area, and we could just see the top of what looked like a white vehicle in the water. Obviously, you know, we have a hard time seeing that. It`s really dark water, and we were about 700 feet off the ground at the time.

GRACE: So it wasn`t totally submerged?

DUFFY: It was totally submerged, but it was just deep enough that you wouldn`t have been able to see it from the road, but looking directly down on it, we could actually see what looked like the roof of a car, with a sunroof, which is what we were mainly looking for, a white car with a sunroof.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Candace in Georgia. Hi, Candace.

CALLER: Hey, Nancy. You rock, girl. My question is -- it was kind of answered -- how deep the water was.

GRACE: Actually, I didn`t get that. To Shane Duffy, the chief pilot with Executive Helicopters, how deep was that swampy area?

DUFFY: Without going down and looking at it, I`m just going to have to take a guess. And I would think that it wasn`t more than probably five feet deep. Like I said, the top of the car was probably no more than a foot underwater.

GRACE: And they had a sunroof?

DUFFY: Yes, ma`am. That was one of the things that led us to believe that we were would be able to help with this, was that it was a white car and that it had a sunroof.

GRACE: Back out to Marc Klaas, president of Beyond Missing. What do you make of it, Marc? You know, you`ve got the 911 call, somebody calling in, a collision they said around the same time, same area. When cops got there, nothing to be seen.

MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER OF BEYOND MISSING: Well, I believe -- I mean, this is certainly my speculation on this -- is that there probably was not any foul play involved, that it probably did not have anything to do with valuables or money, given the fact that it would have been quite a deal to surveil a home where people were leaving at 4:00 in the morning.

What I can tell you -- and this came from my organization -- is that you can -- they have surveillance cameras on the entrances and exits of all Highway 95 entrances in South Carolina. And law enforcement certainly could have gone in there to determine if that car had entered I-95 at some point during the weekend.

But they completely ignored this family. This whole thing is about the advocacy of Megan and her brother. And they have every right to be very, very angry at Horry P.D. for ignoring their missing mother and father throughout the weekend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re doing everything we can to bring the safe return of baby Bryan back to the family who`s -- you know, it`s evident that they`re going through severe suffering due to the absence of their baby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I keep looking outside my window to see if my baby is going to arrive. I keep looking at all the cars that drive by.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 1-month-old boy kidnapped at knifepoint, literally taken from his mother`s arms. Tonight, Florida police going in a new direction: Was he taken as part of a human-smuggling scheme? Believe it or not, that`s the theory they are working.

Out to Jacob Ogles with "Fort Myers News Press," what can you tell us, Jacob?

JACOB OGLES, REPORTER, "FORT MYERS NEWS PRESS": Well, this newest news came to us Saturday, and that was the first mention that we`ve had that the baby may have been taken as retribution by human smugglers whom the parents owed money to for smuggling them illegally into the country out of Brazil.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police have to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We now know that this is a smuggling operation; It is a human trafficking operation. The parents of baby Bryan were smuggled to the United States from Brazil. During the smuggling operation, they had to pay x amount of dollars to the smugglers.

Over the course of the last couple of months, they have not been able to pay the smugglers the rest of the money that they owe them, so the smugglers came into Fort Myers and kidnapped baby Bryan. And they are trying to force the parents to pay the rest of the money that is owed to the smugglers.

We believe that baby Bryan is still being taken care of well. We have no reason to believe different. We have no change in the person that we`re looking for. We still believe that we`re looking for a Hispanic female with the same description that we gave in the forensic drawing. We also are looking for a black SUV with tinted windows.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: According to the Florida Coalition Against Human Trafficking - - there`s a sketch we heard about last week of the alleged kidnapper -- there`s a big difference between smuggling and trafficking of humans. With human trafficking, people and children are brought to this country for illegal activity. For human smuggling, they are brought here to live here.

Back out to Jacob Ogles with the "Fort Myers News Press," what more can you tell me regarding this sketch? What do we know about the alleged kidnapper, the female?

OGLES: Well, we still have the description that was given early on in this investigation. The child was taken December 1st. A police sketch was released sometime last week.

It`s a Hispanic woman aged 28 to 30. She has dark hair. She was last seen with it partially in a bun. She was last seen in a black or blue two- door SUV.

Now, initially, police thought that this was probably a woman who was looking for a baby to claim as her own, perhaps a desperate mother who had recently lost a baby. But then, on Saturday, they revealed they think she`s part of a larger human smuggling ring. And now they`re looking, not just for her, but for a large group, but they still say the description is the same. They`re still looking for this woman, as the only suspect anyone has seen.

GRACE: Out to former fed Mike Brooks, formerly with the FBI, Mike, huge change in direction as of last week when the baby was kidnapped. Police thought that he was kidnapped by a woman who desperately wanted her own child.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: You know, big change, Nancy, and the whole focus of the investigation is changed. You know, we said last week - - Ray Giudice and I both said last week that something smelled rotten.

GRACE: "Giudice." "Giudice." Not like is the cheese.

BROOKS: Ray and I both said -- and, you know, a lot of people disagreed with us, but I can tell you that it`s changed direction right now. We`re dealing with an organized...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Let`s take a look at Brooks and Giudice. What you said exactly was you thought the mom was involved. Police aren`t saying anything about the mother of the baby being at fault at all. That`s what you said, both of you.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t know how much longer you want to waste going down the wrong train tracks looking for this baby. This law enforcement made a tragic mistake, and it has wasted over a week looking for some woman who may have had a miscarriage, when this baby`s in the hands of probably international drug smugglers who are at the same level as drug cartels.

This baby may be out of the country; it may be in a safe house. Because no one wanted to offend the mother and no one wanted to ask her any hard questions and polygraph her, they`ve wasted a lot of time, precious time.

GRACE: Ray-Ray...

BROOKS: Nancy, this is an organized criminal group with -- it can be very violent. Who`s to say this may not be in danger right now? I`m just saying time was wasted, just as Ray was saying. And we`re dealing with a group of coyotes here, Nancy.

The focus has shifted. You`ve got now Fort Myers police. You`re going to have the FBI, Border Patrol, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement now involved in this, bringing the federal assets in, try to get into these groups to find out exactly who`s involved in this.

GRACE: Right, right, wrap it up.

BROOKS: Is there any undercover operation in this, assets?

GRACE: Liz, please pull up what these two had to say last week.

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: It`s a totally different direction than we were talking about last week.

GIUDICE: Nancy, if the mother doesn`t tell the truth, she`s involved.

GRACE: Yes, what both of you were saying...

GIUDICE: The mother didn`t tell the truth.

GRACE: If I could finish?

GIUDICE: She`s involved.

GRACE: Ray, what both of you were saying was nothing about a human trafficker or a human smuggler.

BROOKS: All we were saying, Nancy, was something stunk.

GRACE: No, no, no, I`d like to finish. I`d like to finish.

BROOKS: And it did.

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: Don`t make me cut your mike, OK? What both of you are saying -- and, Liz, let me know when you`ve got their words ready for them -- was to blame the mom. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIUDICE: Yes, Nancy, I mean, there`s something wrong here.

GRACE: Yes, she`s a kidnapper.

GIUDICE: Well, that`s number one. But I`m going to tell you something: I am somewhat concerned about the actions of the victims. Of course, we`re all concerned about the infant.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

GIUDICE: But hold on for a second now. This is not behavior that mothers of infants would do, to get into a stranger`s vehicle that they see is kind of trailing them. And I`m going to tell you something, Nancy: My wife would eat that knife before she`d give up her child, and I know I speak for every mother that`s out there. There was no struggle.

GRACE: Really? Well, you don`t speak for this lady, do you?

GIUDICE: She sat in that car...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: Call me a cynic. But as investigator with 27 years` law enforcement experience, there`s something that just doesn`t add up here. She was with that woman an hour, and all she could do was give a basic 28 to 30 years old, 5`4", straight black hair. Was there any kind of language barrier there? She speaks Portuguese. What did the other woman speak? Did she also speak Portuguese?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: She spoke Spanish.

BROOKS: OK, so was there a language problem there? Yes, if somebody was there with you an hour...

GRACE: If they were all in it together, then why the phony phone call to the business...

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: Not necessarily. OK, it might be stupidity.

GRACE: Yes, you know, that didn`t take me long to crack you on that one, Mike Brooks.

BROOKS: I`m not going to get in a car with anybody I don`t know, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, so we`ve got -- you know, somehow everybody`s bass- ackwards on this tonight. I don`t appreciate -- you can laugh all you want to...

BROOKS: I will.

GRACE: ... calling this mom stupid when she`s trying to help another lady. The point tonight is not all of your judgments on this mother right here. The point tonight is...

BROOKS: Would you get in the car if you had a 28-day-old baby?

GRACE: No, no, I wouldn`t.

BROOKS: OK, there you go.

GRACE: But that`s not the question tonight, Mike Brooks. The question is: Where`s the baby?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Tom Hanson, columnist with the "Naples Daily News," welcome, Tom. Has there been any suggestion by police that the mother is somehow implicated with a group of international coyotes?

TOM HANSON, COLUMNIST, "NAPLES DAILY NEWS": No, none that the mother is. And they almost even came out with information that the -- they didn`t even talk to the family to get this lead. They got this from another source. A human trafficking expert here in town went to the police on Friday to give them these new developments.

GRACE: Out to Renee Rockwell, defense attorney. Renee, what the police are saying, according to Tom Hanson and Jacob Ogles, is that the mother and dad were smuggled into this country to work and live here. OK, we may not like it, but that`s the fact, and that they didn`t finish paying the smugglers.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, and you know this smuggling operation earns about $10 billion a year? People coming from Brazil, I happen to know a little bit about this, you can pay $10,000 to $12,000. This is how it works, Nancy. Half is paid up front when you`re in Brazil; the other half is paid when you get back to the United States.

And they want their money. And you`re dealing with a bunch of rats, too. They don`t care about this baby. I`d be interested to know if this baby is still here. This baby could have been sold on the black market. They`ll be lucky to get the baby back.

GRACE: And to Robi Ludwig, because the parents may not have paid off the debt, you know they`ve got to be blaming themselves.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, my god. I mean, there must be tremendous debt. Probably they put themselves on the line, first of all, to get into this country, to have a better life for both themselves and their future children and child, and then something like this happens. I`m sure they are just devastated, because the worst possible scenario is a possibility here

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. Could the kidnap of a 1-month-old baby boy at knifepoint be part of a human smuggling scam? Out to Ray Giudice and Mike Brooks. Still want to implicate the mom? The police have said it`s human smugglers. You two know better.

BROOKS: Why didn`t they cooperate from the very beginning with law enforcement?

GRACE: They don`t speak English!

BROOKS: And it sounds like they`re still not cooperating, Nancy. So and the other woman, the other woman who was in the van...

GRACE: You just don`t give up, do you?

BROOKS: The other woman who was in the SUV, she got out of the van an hour. What did she do for that hour, walk around? Why didn`t she call 911?

GRACE: OK, OK, OK.

GIUDICE: Nancy, you`re missing the point. The point is not...

GRACE: I`m missing the point?

GIUDICE: ... whether the mother is solved in a crime.

GRACE: But that`s the point you made.

GIUDICE: The point is that the mother did not tell the truth and therefore not cooperating has led to delay in the solving of this problem.

BROOKS: Exactly. And who`s to say that that composite is the real deal?

GRACE: Do you have any knowledge that she knew the kidnapper?

GIUDICE: Nancy, they knew they were brought here by human smugglers. They knew they were illegal. They knew they owed money.

GRACE: OK, fine, fine, fine.

GIUDICE: And they may have known the woman that they got in the vehicle with.

BROOKS: Exactly.

GRACE: OK, guys, when you decide to eat a dirt sandwich and admit the mom does not know this band of human smugglers from overseas...

BROOKS: Well, what about dad?

GRACE: ... see you later. Oh, now we`re on dad.

BROOKS: What about dad?

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines.

BROOKS: What about mom or dad?

GRACE: Gene in Michigan. Hi, Gene.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is...

GRACE: You called at just the right moment. Go ahead.

CALLER: ... has the mother informed the authorities of the smugglers that brought her over here, and is she naming them so they can possibly find that?

GRACE: Excellent question.

CALLER: They very well could be in cahoots.

GRACE: To Tom Hanson, do we have any information on that? Didn`t they admit they were smuggled over?

HANSON: No, they`re admitting they were smuggled over, but I don`t think they`re cooperating with police right now. And I think Ray and Mike are close. I think the father -- I think my theory is the father had the bill, was paying off the debt, and didn`t tell the mother. So the father`s been emotionless the whole time, and I think that`s the...

GRACE: Well, you know what, Tom? Maybe I`ll be the one to eat the dirt sandwich in the end, but we`ll see about that.

Let`s switch gears. I want to remember U.S. Pilot Major Troy Gilbert, 34, Litchfield Park, Arizona, killed, Iraq, awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with honor. He married his college sweetheart, Ginger, after graduating with a B.S. in economics. The father of five, including brand new twin girls, Major Troy Gilbert, an American hero.

Thank you to our guests. And good night from special guests here in the studio, Julie, Ian, Kathy, Lacy, Jennifer, Vincenza and Christian. NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

END