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CNN NEWSROOM

Military to Share Suggestions for Iraq; Serial Killer Targets Women in London; Families Hold Out Hope for Missing Hikers; FDA Weighs Extra Warnings for Anti-Depressants

Aired December 13, 2006 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kyra Phillips at the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Don Lemon.

Jack the Ripper returns? A serial killer prowling for prostitutes in eastern England. Working girls warned to take off the streets. The latest on the case, this hour.

PHILLIPS: They took the trail less traveled, and that may mean the difference between life and death for three missing climbers. Oregon rescuers vow to try again, as another major storm bears down on Mt. Hood.

LEMON: Suicide and anti-depressants. Young adults, listen up. The FDA has a warning for you. New research concerning labels and life-altering decisions. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

PHILLIPS: Top brass at the Pentagon getting down to brass tacks on Iraq. President Bush is on the latest leg of his listening tour. We're awaiting a statement on what he's heard and what he thinks about it.

Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, has more on what the president has been hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Following a secure video conference with top commanders, outgoing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld leaves the White House with Robert Gates, the man who, next week, officially inherits the Iraq problem.

That Gates needs more time to consider the options is one reason given by the White House for putting off a decision on a course correction until January.

President Bush is getting a lot of conflicting advice. One of the military commanders on the conference hookup from Iraq was Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli, who just before joining the call told reporters in Baghdad more military force is not the answer.

LT. GEN. PETER CHIARELLI, U.S. ARMY: I know everybody wants us to charge on out there and make everything OK. But you cannot if you don't get these other things moving. And I don't know why it's so hard to get people to understand that.

MCINTYRE: But some of the experts who met with the president just the day before suggested one last major show of U.S. force could possibly stop the violence long enough for a political settlement to take hold, even as they conceded, that was a long shot.

When Mr. Bush comes to the Pentagon, he'll likely get another list of pros and cons, not a clear cut recommendation. At least that's the sense of CNN's Don Shepperd, who was among a small group of military analysts who met privately with Rumsfeld and joint chiefs chairman General Peter Pace in advance of the powwow with the president.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think he's going to hear a whole bunch of options, no solutions, no big plan by the military to say "This is what we need to do."

MCINTYRE: As for the much discussed option of surging more troops into Baghdad as a stop-gap measure, few experts think that will work.

JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Even if you throw 20,000 troops in there and they temporarily put the violence down, what's going to happen is those guys are going to go to ground and as soon as the 20,000 troops leave, they'll just pop back up.

MCINTYRE (on camera): U.S. military commanders are fond of saying that failure is not an option in Iraq. But at least some of the independent experts advising President Bush say failure is the most likely outcome, no matter what the president eventually decides to do.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Two more car bomb attacks in Baghdad today. At least 15 Iraqis killed, dozens wounded in violence targeting, once again, poor laborers in search of a day's work.

Just yesterday, a huge truck bombing killed 71 Iraqis, mostly day laborers. Also today, two truck bombs killed seven Iraqi soldiers at their base near the northern city of Kirkuk.

PHILLIPS: Can Iraqi security forces really turn the tables and take the lead? We're getting word they want to try and soon.

Our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, has the latest now from Baghdad -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, national security adviser here in Iraq has said that the prime minister of Iraq, Nuri al-Maliki, when he met with President Bush two weeks ago, gave the president a new plan for the security of Baghdad. It envisions Iraqi security forces taking over the lead of security in Baghdad, relying on U.S. military for backup and support. It's essentially asking the U.S. military to pull back from the center of the city, pull back towards the suburbs and let the Iraqis take the lead.

I was out with Iraqi army today in the west of the city. Essentially in the small sector they control they've already done that. There were only a handful of U.S. military trainers in that area. But other parts of the city are very volatile.

A military spokesman at the Ministry of Defense here yesterday said that the temperatures reaching boiling point in some of the mixed sectarian neighborhoods. And he said the army is too stretched to tackle it.

I asked the military commander today if the army could go into the 2.5 million-strong Sadr City and disarm a militia there. He said no, that the army isn't strong enough to do that.

So while the politicians on one hand here are laying out a security plan to essentially pull back U.S. troops in the city and for Iraqis to take control, there are others, including many in the army who think that may be a stretch too far right now, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, now some senators are in Baghdad. Can you tell me more about who they are and why they're there?

ROBERTSON: Well, senators McCain, Lieberman, Collins, Kirk, all met with the U.S. ambassador here today, Zalmay Khalilzad.

They also met with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, and the prime minister laid out to him his plans at the moment for ending the sectarian violence. He's planning a national reconciliation conference on Saturday. And he discussed that with them, that it would involve trying to broaden the political base here in Iraq, to bring on disenfranchised Sunnis, to try and bring in the elements that might be able to end the insurgencies.

He said that he was committed to disarming the militias, something President Bush asked him to do two weeks, and he said he wanted to help reconstruct Iraq, as well. So laying out quite a broad-based agenda, but he does face some political opposition, and he does face some very tough challenges in meeting those expectations.

There's by no means expected that this conference to be held next weekend on national reconciliation will be successful, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right. Nic Robertson, live from Baghdad.

LEMON: Sunni versus Shia, a sectarian battle line in the but a divide line through much of Middle East and now potentially a flash point. Saudi Arabia is said to be warning Washington it might take sides in Iraq if American troops pull out before the crisis is fully resolved.

Reportedly, in a worst case scenario, the Saudis would, quote, "intervene aggressively on behalf of Iraqi Sunnis to prevent their being massacred by an Iraq Shiite majority."

A source tells CNN Saudi King Abdullah said as much to Vice President Cheney two weeks ago when Cheney made a sudden visit to Riyadh.

A closer look now at Iraq's neighbors and how they split along sectarian lines. Most Muslims in Iran are Shiite -- Shiites. But Sunnis are in the majority in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Jordan.

So what's the difference between those schools of Islam and why all the bad blood? Well, here's a CNN fact check.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About one in every five people on the planet consider themselves Muslim. That's about 1.2 billion. But there are many divisions in the Muslim community, the largest division between Shiites and Sunnis.

The majority of the world's Muslim population follows the Sunni branch. Only about 15 percent follow the Shiite branch. But in some countries, the concentration of Shiites is larger. These nations are Bahrain, Lebanon, Azerbaijan, Iran and Iraq.

Shiites historically believe that religious authority has been handed down from Prophet Muhammad through bloodlines. When you hear the terms imam and ayatollah, these refer to Shiite religious leaders. Sunnis attach much less importance to their leaders and much more importance on Muslim traditions.

There can be extremists in both branches of Islam. But Sunni extremists like Osama bin Laden have focused predominantly on the corruption of the religion and, specifically, the negative influence of western culture.

In Iraq, both Shiite and Sunni insurgent groups have carried out attacks against coalition forces. But most Shiite groups have dropped violent opposition to pursue political activism.

As the majority, Shiites have been successful in dominating the leadership of Iraq's new government. Needless to say, many Sunni insurgent groups have not been satisfied by the results of these democratic elections.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIPS: Five bodies in 10 days. Three families are mourning. Two others are fearing the worse. And police in eastern London are on the hunt for a possible serial killer.

CNN's Adrian Finighan joins me now from Ipswitch with the latest -- Adrian.

ADRIAN FINIGHAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, very little in the way of new information to pass on to you right now. What is new is that one of the two bodies that police found at about this time yesterday has now been removed to a local hospital for further forensic examination. The other body will remain at the scene of the crime until at least tomorrow morning.

So as you said, five bodies in 10 days. The women's naked bodies found dumped in the countryside. We have a community in shock and a small country police force reeling under the weight of the size of this investigation.

It's a drama, an unfolding drama, that's capturing the public's attention here in Britain. This kind of thing just doesn't happen here. It's receiving a lot of media coverage.

One Sunday newspaper has offered $500,000 for information leading to the capture or arrest of this murderer.

Tony Blair, the prime minister, was even asked about the murder investigation today at prime minister's questions in the House of Commons. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We support the police fully in dealing with the horror of this situation. And also with the entirely understandable fear there is in the community.

I'm sure the whole House of Commons would want to send its sympathy to the people of Ipswitch, to the people of the county of Suffolk, and most particularly, of course, to the family and friends of the victims.

And I can assure my honorable friend we will do everything we can to support the police in the difficult and challenging work that they do, and I have every confidence that they will perform their task well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FINIGHAN: So three known prostitutes are dead. Two others are missing. And of course we have those two bodies found a little over 24 hours ago near Ipswich. The police say that they're now losing hope as far as finding those two missing women alive.

Here's what the man in charge of this murder investigation, Detective Chief Superintendent Stewart Gull, had to say to me about those two missing women a little over 20 minutes ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DET. CHIEF SUPT. STEWART GULL, SUFFOLK POLICE: As I indicated yesterday, I fear for the worst. Annette and Paula are still outstanding. They haven't made contact with us. And in all probability, the two girls that we found at Levington are Annette and Paula, but still identification to be confirmed.

(END VIDEO CLIP) FINIGHAN: So five bodies in 10 days. The people of Ipswich are stunned that something like this, with a serial killer on the loose in their community, could be happening right here, right now -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: You know, Adrian, here in the states, everybody's talking about the comparison to Jack the Ripper. Is that the talk there?

FINIGHAN: It is, yes, and another more recent serial killer who also attacks prostitutes, Peter Sutcliffe, know as the Yorkshire Ripper, who was active between 1975 and 1980, he killed 13 women. Not all of them were prostitutes. But he killed, as I said, over a five- year period.

The unprecedented thing about this murder spree is that whoever is responsible has now killed five women in five days. That, highly unusual. And sent shockwaves through this community.

Ipswich, the most ordinary of English town, famous in the past for perhaps -- for punching well above its weight as far as European football is concerned. Now it's become infamous right around the world for this gruesome series of murders and the fact that police here are hunting for a serial killer, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Adrian Finighan, we'll stay in touch.

LEMON: Renewed hope and holding strong. The families of three climbers stranded since Sunday on Mt. Hood say, despite the treacherous weather, they're encouraged.

Fresh rescue teams have joined the search. An unmanned surveillance team is helping scan the blustery slopes. Rescuers believe two of the climbers are somewhere around 7,000 feet up. The other, Kelly James -- the other, who is Kelly James, was last heard from holed up in a snow cave.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK JAMES, BROTHER OF KELLY JAMES: Kelly is experienced. It's my understanding that even on this -- on Mt. Hood back in the '80s, there were other situations along these lines where individuals survived in a snow cave for seven or eight days. And so that, for us, is very much encouraging.

Kelly is a professional in that sense. He knows what he's doing. He did exactly the right thing to do. And I'm sure -- I feel reasonably sure that Brian and Nikko have done the same thing, probably hunkered down in a snow cave until the weather passes over. So I think their experience will serve them well in these very difficult...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And that press conference held just about an hour ago. Reporter Scott Burton with CNN affiliate KGW is following the desperate search. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCOTT BURTON, KGW CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Defeated and depleted, rescuers returned to base Tuesday night, clearly beaten by Mt. Hood's power.

LINDSAY CLUNES, CORVALLIS MOUNTAIN RESCUE: At times if you picked your foot up it would just blow it away. So if you put your foot down too soon, it was gone. You'd fall down.

BURTON: This was supposed to be their big break. Some of the area's best packed out on Sno-Cat in the morning. An Oregon National Guard helicopter finally got airborne by afternoon.

But by day's end, the chopper never crossed 7,000 feet, and blistering winds prevented rescuers from climbing much higher.

SHERIFF JOE WAMPLER, HOOD RIVER COUNTY, OREGON: We had consistent 85 mile an hour winds. Above the 8,000 foot level.

BURTON: As a result, still missing are three veteran climber, Jerry Cooke of New York, Brian Hall and Kelly James of Dallas, Texas. Rescue crews believe James is bunkered in a snow cave near the mountain's 11,000 foot summit. He called his family Sunday from a cell phone.

JAMES: He expressed to them that he was in a snow cave. That -- he didn't say anything about injury. He said the other two climbers had gone on ahead. We are sort of putting things together, assume that there was perhaps some injury. They'd gone to seek help.

BURTON: Rescuers are using James cell phone as a honing beacon. They pinned his location down to a quarter mile, but they can't reach him and they don't know where his climbing companions are now.

JAMES: These are three very experienced climbers. My brother has been climbing for 25 years. And so they would know what to do in a difficult situation.

BURTON: But the situation is growing worse by the minute. And reality is sitting in. More snow is forecast. Reaching these climbers may be impossible by week's end.

CLUNES: No it would be very difficult to do. I'm sorry, but it would be very difficult to do.

BURTON: In Mt. Hood, Oregon, I'm Scott Burton for CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And at the bottom of the hour, one of the lead rescuers will update us on the search for the stranded climbers. Steve Rowlands also will share survival tips, in case you ever find yourself in a similar situation. That's right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

PHILLIPS: They're supposed to ease depression, but some people say they increase the risk of suicide. Today, the FDA is taking a critical look at popular anti-depressant drugs. We're checking it out, ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It is an emotional, often painful debate. The question, should there be expanded warning labels on anti-depressant drugs? Warnings that advise patients about an increased risk of suicide? It is the topic of a day-long hearing going on in Washington.

Let's bring in our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen.

Should there be one? That's the question.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's the question. That's the question that the FDA is hearing about right now. These hearings are going on in Washington.

And the question is, these anti-depressants, do they save lives or do they take lives? The FDA is hearing from two sides.

One side says that some of the most popular anti-depressants -- we're talking big names like Prozac and Paxil and Zoloft -- actually make people suicidal, people who weren't suicidal before that, they make people suicidal.

The FDA heard from one woman named Suzanne Gonzales, whose 48- year-old husband took four Paxil tablets and shot himself in the head. Here's what she had to say to the FDA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZANNE GONZALES, WITNESS: How crazy did you make him that morning that he would get up, not think, and do this to himself? You've ruined my life, my daughter's life, my son's life. How in the hell do I tell a kid that his father committed suicide? Damn him (ph)!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, people like Suzanne Gonzales are calling for what's called a black box warning. That is a big bold warning at the top of the label that says that these drugs could be linked to suicide, that anyone who takes them might be at a higher risk for suicide.

But there's another side. And those are doctors and patients who say, look, these drugs, like the ones you see here, that they save lives. And that if there were that kind of big, bold warning, that people would be afraid to take them and wouldn't get the help that they need.

Here's what one patient had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERI WALTON, WITNESS: To the outside world, I had a successful career, an active social life and lots of friends. But I was moody, sad and quick-tempered, and true happiness always seemed to elude me.

Like all chronic diseases left untreated, depression is progressive. As my life progressed, my depression progressed until it took over my life and, unfortunately, my husband's life and my children's lives.

Anti-depressant medication saved me. Along with therapy, medication gave me back my life. It gave their children back their mother. It gave my husband back his wife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now the FDA did say at this hearing that studies show that these anti-depressants do seem to increase suicidal thoughts and actions for people who were 25 and younger but actually seemed to decrease suicidal actions for older adults.

LEMON: Yes. And remind the viewers, we were looking at live pictures from that hearing that's going on right now.

A lot of folks -- and there it is right there, very emotional hearing. A lot of folks are on these drugs. We call it SSRI, right? Very common. So what if you or someone in your family is on these things? What should they be looking for? What should they look out for?

COHEN: Right, millions of people do take these drugs. And we should note that most people do take them, obviously, quite safely, without killing themselves.

But there are some things the doctors say you really need to look for when someone starts these drugs or when a dosage goes up, that those are the two most vulnerable times. But you should be vigilant all the time. But those are the two big times to really pay attention.

What you want to look for is don't go off the medications without consulting your doctor. Monitor changes in mood when starting a new medication or switching dosage. Look for worsening depression or increased suicidal thinking.

Also, just look for any kind of change in behavior. Was the person maybe just mildly depressed when they went on the drugs but became more depressed? Did they become very agitated? Some people complain physically that they can't stop moving, that they're agitated. Look for any kind of signs of any big change.

LEMON: I think the most important thing, though, is don't go on and off the drug without a doctor.

COHEN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

LEMON: Because you need to monitor that. Is it possible -- this is going to sound weird -- that both sides are right? Is there a happy medium? COHEN: You know, it's not weird. And that's what many people say probably is the case, that maybe both sides are right. These drugs are certainly godsends for many a people who -- many people who say that they were terribly depressed and that the drugs helped them.

But maybe there is a small percentage of people, for whatever reason, something about their brain wiring or brain chemistry, that taking these drugs sent them over the edge. And it's not clear why someone would fall in one group versus the other.

LEMON: Very good advice. Thank you so much, medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

COHEN: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: A window of relatively milder winter is about to slam shut in Oregon, and the search for three missing climbers takes on added urgency as another major winter storm bears down on Mt. Hood. We'll have an update coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

PHILLIPS: Want to remind you once again. We went to Susan quickly there for that update, Jeffrey Skilling, former Enron CEO, has reported to prison this hour. We'll hear more about that, of course with Susan in our next business headlines.

LEMON: The president still listening. And today, Defense Department honchos are doing the talking about a way forward in Iraq. We're expecting to hear from Mr. Bush and military -- on military options straight ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: He's listening, but he might not like what he's hearing. We're expecting to hear from President Bush in about 45 minutes as he adds another Iraq strategy session to a very long list. Let's get to the White House and our Elaine Quijano -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon to you, Kyra.

That's right, president Bush continuing on with his consultations here in Washington, meeting just a short distance from here over at the Pentagon, as you noted, with his top military advisers and the president's -- members of the president's national security team, as well, including his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, Vice President Cheney, of course, and the outgoing and incoming defense secretaries, Donald Rumsfeld and Dr. Robert Gates, respectively.

Now, as the president mulls over various options for what to do next in Iraq, a reminder today about the intense political pressure the president is facing to change course in Iraq. Just a short time ago, Democrat Senator Carl Levin reiterated his argument for why he wants to see the U.S. begin a phased withdrawal of troops from Iraq. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: This is not an open- ended commitment and it is not in the hands of the Iraqis how long are troops stay. It is in our hands how long our troops stay. That message would reverberate in a very, very important way to the Iraqi leaders.

TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECY.: The Iraqis have plenty of incentive to take full governance of their country and also to fight terror. I'm not going to get into a debate with Senator Levin, but we're taking -- we've taken a work at every option, including the options that have been suggested by members of Congress. The president has tried to be as wide ranging in the review.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: And that was White House Press Secretary Tony Snow just a short time ago in the daily White House press briefing. Snow was also asked about what role the United States has in the internal politics of Iraq, namely, the forming of a moderate group of Sunni, Shia and Kurdish leaders who can help guide that country in the future. And Snow was very clear, saying that it should be made known the U.S. is not, in a sense, assembling this moderate coalition. We saw President Bush meeting with top Iraqi leaders yesterday. Of course, it was a Sunni Iraqi vice president, but Snow is being very careful to say that in fact these are consultations and that it is the Iraqis themselves who are trying to work together to build the future for their country -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: What about this meeting between King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and Vice President Dick Cheney and this conversation about Saudi Arabia backing the Iraqi insurgency, the Sunni insurgency, if U.S. troops leave?

QUIJANO: Yes, well, you know, Tony Snow was asked about that just a short time ago in the briefing. He said, first and foremost, important to note they do not believe it is the Saudi government's policy. They said it's not the Saudi government's policy to back the Sunni insurgents in Iraq. But, of course, privately, there have been, of course, concerns about what impact, if any, it would have if the United States were to leave Iraq precipitously.

In fact, this morning, a senior administration official pointing to a "Washington Post" opinion piece written by a security adviser, a consultant to the Saudi government, basically saying if, in fact, the United States were to pull out of Iraq, you can be sure the Saudi government would be forced to step in essentially and help their fellow Sunnis.

Saudi Arabia, of course, a majority Sunni nation. Really, Kyra, what this does, the report of this, underscores just how complex a picture it is, as President Bush tries to weigh these various options. Of course, not just looking inside Iraq itself, but also having to be very mindful of the situation involving Iraq's neighbors -- Kyra. PHILLIPS: Elaine Quijano at the White House, thanks so much. Coming up next hour, we are going to talk to the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Robert Jordan.

LEMON: Conditions are treacherous and getting worse. But that's not stopping rescuers at Mt. Hood who have been scouring the slopes the past three days for three stranded climbers. Fresh teams have joined the search, and two camps are being set up.

One of the missing men was in a snow cave the last time anyone heard from him. He said the other two had left to get help. Rescuers know they can only search so high.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS BERNARD, CAPT. 304th RESCUE SQUADRON: We realize we have a ceiling at about 7,000 feet with weather and conditions that just -- man and machine are at their limits there. So that -- that's the rescue that we want to do.

That's the -- you know what we've been attempting now is trying to get through up there, get to that known point where we had that cell phone call. We can't get there, so what we're doing is we're going to focus on the search and we're going to look for the other two missing climbers. And our resources are going to go to lower elevations and search what we can and put mass effort into that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And relatives of all three climbers are at the base camp, thanking rescuers and trying to keep their spirits up. Steven Rollins is president of the Portland Mountain Rescue. He knows what rescuers are up against. He led one of the searches earlier this week.

And I understand, Mr. Rollins, you came down the same day that this group went up. Tell us about the conditions there right now.

STEVEN ROLLINS, PRES. PORTLAND MOUNTAIN RESCUE: Well, conditions are really challenging. We have very high avalanche danger. The weather has been, as you know, very difficult. Mother Nature is really tying our hands.

LEMON: Take us inside of one of those searches. What did you do first? And tell us the procedures. What happened while you were doing the searches?

ROLLINS: Well, we led a team trying to go up looking for any sign that the climbers may have come down the southside route. We were looking at a very common area. It's easy for climbers to get lost on the south side of Mt. Hood. If you go downhill it actually takes you away from Timberland Lodge.

LEMON: These are very, as we said, treacherous conditions that you are working in, so I imagine that you had to be careful. I want you to talk about some of the things that people should take in case, or in situations like this. You have some things there you want to show us?

ROLLINS: Yes, I brought some survival gear. This would be from a climber's perspective, so if you are doing a climb on the mountain -- one of the things you obviously want is extra food and fuel. The body is very much like a campfire. It's -- it needs oxygen and it needs fuel to stay warm and if you don't keep the fuel going, the fire eventually goes out.

LEMON: OK.

ROLLINS: One of the other things we like to carry is a plastic bag. And just a trash bag. These don't breathe so when you sweat, the moisture doesn't get out of it and if you do ...

LEMON: That's what I was going to talk about. It's unusual that -- most people would not think that you would recommend a plastic, good old-fashioned kitchen garbage bag, but why is that?

ROLLINS: Well, it's interesting. One of the ways the body loses heat is through evaporation. So, if you get wet through rain or you just perspire and sweat, the energy lost through turning that sweat into steam makes you cold. If you create a jacket out of a trash bag like this, you'll actually prevent that evaporative heat loss and you'll be warmer.

LEMON: OK, what's next?

ROLLINS: Well, we always carry some type of insulation so that would be either a sleeping bag, a down sleeping bag, or we also carry down parkas. This is very lightweight, but it's a good insulating tool. Not real good if you're down in the rain, but high on the mountain in a snowy environment, down works as a very good lightweight insulator.

Next you need to insulate yourself from the snow because if you sit out in the snow, obviously you're going to get cold. So you can certainly sit on a packback. So if you've got a backpack, climbing backpack, you can sit on it. Some backpacks now actually come with a removable foam pad that actually folds out and you can actually lay on this for survival.

LEMON: Now I see you have a plastic bag there. What's inside of that clear plastic bag you have to your left?

ROLLINS: To my left, this is just my extra food and fuel. This is actually the food and fuel that I brought on the mission up on the mountain Monday. So I've got carbohydrate gels. This is actually designed for marathon athletes. It's very quickly digested sugars that gives you energy about ten minutes after taking one, you're full of energy.

LEMON: And just real quick I want to ask you. How much does all this stuff weigh? It's like carrying a big bag of sugar up a mountain?

ROLLINS: Yes, it is -- you do have to plan your weight accordingly when you're climbing. And there are hazards on the mountain such as falling rock and ice that you just can't deal with. The only thing you can do to be safe is minimize your exposure.

So it's a balance between bringing survival gear in case something happens but not bringing too much survival gear such as you're really show, you prolong yourself to those hazards.

LEMON: All right Steven, let's get back to the search because as I said, you led one of the searches earlier this week. But there was a press conference held just a short time ago. And also speaking at that press conference was a brother of one of the people who they're searching for today. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK JAMES, BROTHER OF MISSING CLIMBER: It's my understanding even on Mt. Hood back in the '80s there were other situations along these lines where individuals survived in the snow cave for seven or eight days. And so that for us is very much encouraging.

Well Kelly is a professional in that sense. He knows what he is doing. He did exactly the right thing to do. And I'm sure -- I feel reasonably sure that Brian and Nicco have done the same thing, probably hunkered down in a snow cave until the weather passes over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Very optimistic, especially about the experience that they have. What are rescuers thinking? What's going through your minds right now?

ROLLINS: Well, I mean, we try to remain optimistic. But obviously, as time goes on, our concern increases. There is a finite amount of time that somebody can live with limited resources in a snow cave or in a shelter. So the more time goes on, the more we're certainly concerned for these individuals.

LEMON: Yes, we're certainly concerned and we hope you guys find them soon and all the rescuers because as we understand, some pretty strong winds are going to come through there soon. So, time is of the essence.

ROLLINS: It really is.

LEMON: All right. Thank you very much. Steve Rollins, someone who led one of the searches earlier this week. We wish you luck.

ROLLINS: Thank you.

LEMON: Thanks for joining us.

PHILLIPS: There's spacewalking and we're spacetalking. Miles O'Brien, what's going on at the international space station?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, they're trying to pull the shades, but right now, they ran into a little jam. We'll explain in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: There's a lot going on in our next story. But it's over your head. About 220 miles over your head. A couple of astronauts from space shuttle Discovery have been tooling around outside the international space station. That brings us to Miles O'Brien, of course, our go-to guy for all things NASA.

Miles, tell us what they're doing today.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, of course, it's not over your head, Kyra, we know that.

PHILLIPS: Because you taught me well, that is why.

O'BRIEN: That's right, that's right. You did listen for all those years and I thought you weren't.

PHILLIPS: Every now and then.

O'BRIEN: Let's go right to space, shall we, and we'll show you what's up. They're trying to fold up -- it's like tantamount to having a map that's unfolded for six years and now it's time to fold it up. And look what's happening -- it's not going so well.

Take a look at these kind of crinkly lines here. This is a solar array. It extends out about 110 feet. They're trying to retract it in. These things are doing just fine so far as they bring it in. But as they -- they were a little bit worried about this. As they've been trying to pull it back in, it's getting all messed up like the shade I have in my bedroom. And it's not -- it could be...

PHILLIPS: What's so tricky about this, Miles?

O'BRIEN: Well, what happens is, as they sat out there in the sun for six years -- and these arrays were not supposed to be out here for six years and then retracted. They were supposed to be up temporarily for a short period of time and then moved, and not baking in the sun for six years in space.

This is the big picture here. Retract these arrays because look, these arrays are conflicting with those, right? So these are the new ones that are about to go online when they rewire the station. Now they have got to take these, that are providing temporary power, retract them.

Eventually they'll go down back over here. So it's kind of a little bit of a shuffle. But right now, today, what they're trying to do is this simple procedure. But because it's been out there six years-plus, they're not cooperating so well.

PHILLIPS: And the purpose of them spacewise, sciencewise, researchwise?

O'BRIEN: It's all about the juice. PHILLIPS: All about the juice.

O'BRIEN: Yes, those two arrays up there provide enough power to fuel -- well, give power to, say, about 25 homes. When they finally get all four of them out there, they'll have upwards of 55 to 60 homes worth of juice.

But you can see right now, they're having some difficulty retracting it. If things go really bad, they have some spacewalkers that will be out there anyway, and one of their tasks will be to manually pull these shades. They'll be looking for the cord, I guess. Actually -- go ahead.

PHILLIPS: Well, I was going to say, you say looking for the cord. I was wondering what happened to the lost piece of tool you were talking about.

O'BRIEN: Oh, yes, yes. Well, this spacewalk yesterday, things went pretty well. They were able to attach an important piece of the girder-like structure, the spine of the International Space Station.

Let's go to that last piece of tape if we can, to that moment when Christer Fugelsang -- how did I do today? Fugelsang.

PHILLIPS: Fugelsang, you got it perfect.

O'BRIEN: Yes, this is the pistol grip tool. That's a $15,000 Makita there.

PHILLIPS: Wow.

O'BRIEN: And he's trying to put on the extension that you would on a ratchet set. He's got it tethered. You can see right there, it's tethered. OK, he's supposed to, before he pulls the tether off, pull on it. He didn't. Watch what happens now as he moves. He's looking somewhere else right now -- off it goes into the darkness.

PHILLIPS: Oh, boy.

O'BRIEN: That thing weighs about a pound, as you saw, it's a couple -- three inches.

PHILLIPS: How much does it cost?

O'BRIEN: Well you know, I dropped tools all the time, but they drop. And in space they become satellites.

PHILLIPS: They float away.

O'BRIEN: They become satellites, yes.

PHILLIPS: Wow. All right, we're going to talk more about this coming up in the next hour. Right?

O'BRIEN: Yes, we'll see you.

PHILLIPS: OK, see you then.

LEMON: The Saudis weigh in on the future of Iraq, and more on the White House. They'll be on the Sunni side of the street if U.S. troops pull out. We'll check it out ahead in the NEWSROOM.

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LEMON: He studied to be a monk and when that didn't work out, he asked his buddy John Lennon to be his best man at his wedding. Two facts I'll bet you didn't know about Peter Boyle. Boyle died last night at a New York hospital of cancer and heart disease. This just a year after he wrapped up a hugely successful 10-year run on the CBS series "Everybody Loves Raymond."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your father's unbelievable!

PETER BOYLE, ACTOR: Give me my tools!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. You broke my stove.

BOYLE: You asked me to work on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I didn't tell you to hit it with a hammer!

BOYLE: That stove has been asking for it for 35 years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know where to eat now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Boyle once described Frank Barone as "obnoxious in a nice way." He cut his teeth on characters who were obnoxious in obnoxious ways. But then came a role in 1974 that brought his career to life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOYLE: Stand on your feet. You can do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: As the monster in Mel Brooks' "Young Frankenstein" -- sorry, I should say Frankenstein -- Boyle could not only stand and walk, he could dance, and a star was born. Peter Boyle leaves a wife, two daughters and generations of fans and friends. He was 71 years old.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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