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Nancy Grace

Three Mt. Hood Climbers Still Not Found

Aired December 14, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Three American men stranded on Oregon`s Mt. Hood, day eight, last known alive inside a cave hollowed out of ice and snow. Did they send out urgent SOS`s by cell within the last 72 hours? Wind, sleet, snow now at 100 MPH. Can they be saved? And what are the legal implications to the rescue?
And tonight: She drove her BMW to take her dog shopping in one of the most expensive and exclusive malls in the world. But ruh-roh! She forgot one thing -- to take her baby in with her, leaving the toddler with the valet. And then, whoops! She got tied up in gift wrap. Can you say felony neglect?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today we are facing harsh weather conditions, but we have hope that despite the odds, Kelly, Brian and Nikko will hold on and will endure. The families are overwhelmed with the news that Kelly James is coherent enough to try to reach out for a lifeline by turning on his cell phone on Tuesday evening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mt. Hood is surrounded by 10 or 12 glaciers. And they`d been on numerous world class mountains, and they wanted the worst conditions, and unfortunately, they got it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know their locations, but rescuers can`t get that high right now. They`re still going to have to survive until the storm settles down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re praying that Brian and Nikko are close by to Kelly, hunkered down in another snow cave. And we believe in our hearts that despite the forces of Mother Nature, these men will persevere and walk off this mountain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Three American men trapped on Mt. Hood, Oregon. Within the last 72 hours, we learned that SOS signals done by turning the cell phone on and off at various intervals came off Mt. Hood within the last few hours.

Let`s go straight out to Dan Simon there in Parkdale. What`s the latest?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, you`re right. There was a ping generated from the cell phone Tuesday morning. And what that tells the authorities is that either Kelly James had that cell phone on, or perhaps he was turning it on and off. But for the family, certainly, a positive sign.

But right now, the main story, Nancy, is the weather. It is just so powerful, so unrelenting up there on the mountain that rescuers basically had to sit on their heels today and just basically wait out the weather, wait until it somehow clears up, perhaps this weekend. It`s so bad that the sheriff actually removed us from the foot of the mountain, fearing our safety. So we`re basically at a ranger station, just waiting this out, hoping that the weather clears up. And we`re told that perhaps by this weekend, it will be better, Nancy.

GRACE: So bottom line, Dan Simon, could the searchers do anything today?

SIMON: No, they really didn`t do a whole lot, other than search the low levels of the mountain. The base camp is right at about 6,000 feet. Where Kelly James is, he`s at 10,000 feet. They don`t know where the other two climbers are. But the goal is to get up somewhere around 10,000, maybe 11,000 feet, near the summit, and they couldn`t do that today because the wind is just so fierce.

GRACE: Out to Steve Rollins, president and rescue leader with the Portland Mountain Rescue. Once the weather abates, Steve, how long will it take the rescuers to get up to 10,000?

STEVE ROLLINS, PRES. AND RESCUE LEADER, PORTLAND MOUNTAIN RESCUE: Well, it depends on how we`re transported up to 10,000 feet. That would be if we got a helicopter ride, you know, that`s a pretty short trip. If we have to climb up there, it could be anywhere from -- if we got a snow cat a ways up, it could be three hours. If it`s no snow cat, maybe five hours.

GRACE: When you said it would be a relatively short trip, how would it be a short trip?

ROLLINS: Well, it depends on how we get up there. Normally, it would take somewhere between three and five hours to get to the summit on the south side. However, even if the weather is clear, we`re still going to have deal with high avalanche danger, so it may be that we have to use helicopters to get up to that level.

GRACE: We all recall the tragic crash of 2002 during another rescue attempt in very similar weather. Is there any chance that you would try to go up via helicopter?

ROLLINS: Well, I was underneath that helicopter when it crashed in 2002, and so I`m very cautious about rides on them. But yes, we are looking at any option, and we still do use helicopters on the mountain. It`s just another risk that we have to take.

GRACE: Here`s the video of that ill-fated 2002 rescue attempt. What do you mean, you were under the helicopter?

ROLLINS: I was the rescue leader for that particular rescue, so -- it was an exciting day on the mountain, as well, but...

GRACE: We are taking a look at the helicopter rolling over and over and over down the side of the mountain. I don`t know that I would have had described it as exciting. But tell me, what went wrong with that 2002 helicopter attempt?

ROLLINS: Well, those helicopters, particularly that specific helicopter model, it`s really at the limits of its capabilities to fly at that altitude. And they really miscalculated the load, as the report came out. And the wind shifted. It lost its lift, and the only place to go was down. So we were all very lucky that day.

GRACE: What`s the appropriate altitude for a helicopter?

ROLLINS: Well, it depends on the helicopter. That was a Pave Hawk, and that was really about 10,500 feet during that weather condition, that was about it and the weight it had. It all depends on the weather. It depends on how much weight`s on board. It depends on the model.

GRACE: Out to Rob Marciano joining us, meteorologist and CNN field producer. Rob, thank you for being with us again tonight. My concern now is, as soon as the weather does abate, we get a little sunshine, that brings in the whole new threat of avalanche.

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, yes. You`re right about that. The avalanche threat is there now. It`s going to continue to be there right on through the weekend, even when we do get a break in the weather.

Let`s go to the mountain and we`ll show you just exactly where we think the greatest threat of avalanche is going to be. Basically, the whole mountain is under avalanche -- high avalanche risk, especially above 6,000 feet, which is about that line right there. It goes sliding around to the area where these guys were thought to have climbed and maybe tried to descend on the northeast side. These are the slopes that are most prone to avalanche because of how steep they are. We`re talking about a 50, 60- degree pitch in spots. So areas where you`ll start to see slides are in through here, off of Cooper Spur or even right down at Eliot Glacier. Places where we think might be -- we think Mr. James may be somewhere up in through this area.

So it`s a high avalanche danger right now. And while piling up snow, we`ve a snow level that is about 7,000, 8,000 feet. It`s going to drop down about 2,000, 3,000 feet. So you have rain that is creating kind of a hard pack ice sheet, and now we`re going to get a foot, maybe two feet of snow on top of that fairly unstable layer. So we`re going to have a high avalanche risk with or without the sun, Nancy. So once the winds abate -- and they won`t abate until Saturday morning -- we`re going to have still some problems on our hands. This is a dangerous time of year for (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Rob, what brings on an avalanche?

MARCIANO: Unstable snow. And what brings on unstable snow are different layers of moisture, the density, the water content. And especially in the Pacific Northwest and the Sierra Nevada, you have probably the highest risk for avalanche because you have, one, so much precipitation -- they expect one to two feet of snow tonight -- and then you have this varying degree of water content, or how cold it gets. The freezing point drops from 8,000 feet down to 1,000 feet in a matter of 12 hours, and that creates all sorts of problems as far as instability of the snow.

GRACE: Out to Frank James. This is Kelly James`s brother joining us tonight. There are indications that your brother not only tried to make a phone call earlier in the week with his cell, but is sending some sort of a SOS signal via phone. Explain.

FRANK JAMES, BROTHER OF MISSING CLIMBER: Well, we hope that`s what it is. We do -- I got confirmation today from the sheriff`s office, working with T-mobile, that on Tuesday at 7:20 -- excuse me, Monday at 7:20, he did make a phone call. He did attempt to make a call. And on Tuesday, early Tuesday morning, we think there was some kind of turning on or turning off of the cell phone.

For us, that is a great encouragement. That tells us that Kelly is alive, and it gives us hope that he`s there. And the second thing I think that`s important is that it tells us that he has his wits about him. And I think that`s very important for us and gives us, as I say, a great deal of hope.

GRACE: Why do you say that, Frank?

JAMES: Well, it means that he had the wherewithal and the presence of mind to turn it on, to send out a signal to let people know that he was still there and alive. So that`s very helpful.

GRACE: From Parkdale, Oregon, also joining us, CNN correspondent Dan Simon. Dan, we`re hearing a lot about Mr. James. What about the other two hikers?

SIMON: Well, that`s the real mystery. We know that Mr. James called on Sunday to say that there was some sort of trouble and that he was holed up in the snow cave, and the other two went somewhere presumably to get some help. At this point, we really have no idea where they are. Unlike Mr. James, there`s no cell phone communication coming from those two. And again, authorities are searching the lower levels of the mountain, hoping that perhaps they may have gone there. But truly, they say, had he gone to the lower levels of the mountain, they think they would have surfaced by now, Nancy.

GRACE: Back to Dan Simon. Do they believe that the cell phone is being turned on and off to conserve the battery but yet still emit signals?

SIMON: Well, what the sheriff`s department told us is that they really have no way of knowing that. The hope is, is that he`s conserving the battery by turning it on or off, but there`s really no way to confirm it because if he`s moving around -- you know, Nancy, the way these cell phones work. Sometimes you get a signal, sometimes you don`t. So he may have just gone to a place where he was somehow able to get a signal and they got that ping. But as you heard his brother say, the hope is, is that he had the right frame of mind to do that -- Nancy.

GRACE: And back to Frank James, Kelly James`s brother, Kelly James trapped somewhere on Mt. Hood. Frank, what leads you to believe he`s turning it on and off? What exactly did they tell you?

JAMES: Well, they couldn`t confirm anything, that he was actually turning on it on or turning it off. They just said that there was some kind of activity up there. T-mobile has worked, again, with them, and they don`t have a lot of detailed information about that. They said -- we asked them very specifically, could it mean that he was turning on the phone and turning it off, and their response was, Yes, it could mean that. It might also mean that he was receiving a text message of some kind.

So again, there`s some measure of ambiguity in all of this. And we take every little bit of information in a positive light because it gives us hope, and we really do hope that Kelly is, in fact, sending out that signal to us.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Joining us tonight from the New York jurisdiction, Mickey Sherman. Also joining us tonight, Midwin Charles. First to you, Mickey Sherman. In order to -- and this is a 911 emergency we`ve got going on here with these three Americans stranded on Mt. Hood. But they had to get a court order to allow the phone companies to release the information as to whether or not a phone call had been made, whether one had been attempted. Explain why.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. You know, sometimes we`re a little bit too concerned about this...

GRACE: Did I hear you say you don`t know? Do you need me to give you a little a refresher?

SHERMAN: No. I just -- when I say I don`t know, I`m saying I can`t believe that we are stuck up on the legal technicalities when peoples` lives are at stake. I mean, we`re not exactly trampling the rights of the citizens here.

GRACE: I`ll be happy to loan you my pocketbook Constitution. I`ve got it right here.

SHERMAN: Yes, but all they`re trying to do is make sure these people are alive and trying to save their lives. I mean, I would not running to courts with petitions about it. You know.

GRACE: This is the first I`ve heard you say -- you know what? Forget it. Midwin, help him out.

(LAUGHTER)

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with him. I mean, it`s absolutely ridiculous that they had to actually go to court to get permission to have access to those phone records.

GRACE: When it`s one of your doper clients, you`re all over it. If they don`t dot every I, cross every T, you`re screaming on the courthouse steps!

SHERMAN: Nancy, these are exigent circumstances.

(CROSSTALK)

CHARLES: Lives are at stake here.

GRACE: I`ll tell the viewers, since both of you are dancing circles all around this. In order -- look, I don`t want anyone breaking in on my cell phone calls and hear me talking about the show, what the defense attorneys did the night before.

CHARLES: But that`s not the case here. There are three people`s lives are hanging at the balance.

SHERMAN: I don`t mind if my rights are violated...

GRACE: You know what?

SHERMAN: ... if it`s to save my life, Nancy.

GRACE: Bottom line, you listen to someone`s cell messages, when you record them, when you trace them in any way, there has to be a court order. I was simply asking not your personal feeling about your own cell phone calls but to explain to the viewers how you go about this process. It takes five minutes.

SHERMAN: Well, if you can make a pitch to a judge that there`s exigent circumstances that require it, then it happens. But I`m just saying I wouldn`t even bother with that. They`re stuck on a mountain. You just get to them, no matter which way you can.

GRACE: OK. You know, next time, I`m going to say, Your honor, the doper is going to sell heroin to a school kid.

SHERMAN: If he`s selling...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I don`t have time to get a warrant.

SHERMAN: If he gets stuck selling it to a school kid in a mountain cave, I got no problem with that.

GRACE: Midwin, before I take it upon myself to explain the process, would you like to try?

CHARLES: I mean, that`s exactly right. You show up to court and you tell the judge, Look, there are exigent circumstances here, and we need to have access to the records. And that`s how it goes.

GRACE: And frankly, it doesn`t even have to be exigent circumstances, although you are correct, exigent circumstances would qualify. You have to go to the judge and say, I need to listen on these phone calls because there`s an emergency, as Mickey Sherman accurately pointed out, or, I think they`re dealing dope or I think they`re planning a murder or I think they`re a terrorist. This is why I think that. Can I tap the phone? It`s a short procedure, typically, with someone under oath. It`s to protect your personal liberties.

Also, do you have to get a warrant to triangulate, Mickey?

SHERMAN: I don`t think so. I can`t imagine...

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) either.

SHERMAN: No, I think that`s just the technology, and I think it`s getting better and better as we go along. I just don`t -- again, I don`t even think we should have to take the step to go into the court.

GRACE: You know, Elizabeth...

SHERMAN: When somebody`s life is at stake...

GRACE: ... please roll tape on this because the next time...

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: ... one of his clients are tapped, I`m going to play this back.

Let`s go out to the lines. Connie in Texas. Hi, Connie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I had a question about the climber that stayed behind. Did he say exactly how far ahead the other two had gone, or is there a possibility they could have turned back and they are in the snow cave with him?

GRACE: Frank James, is there any possibility of that? Could they be together?

JAMES: You know, I don`t have the specific answer to that. But speaking just theoretically, I do think there`s a possibility. You know, I think it`s possible that they would have turned back when they got in trouble and tried to get back to the snow cave.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family wants you to know that we have renewed hope today as the search effort is receiving help from two companies offering their services free of charge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do know we`re going to have two climbing teams on north and the south side that are going to be in a stand-by ready mode, should we get a break in the weather and should they be able to get to that elevation, approximately around 10,000 feet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The families have remained strong. They are supporting each other and looking forward to welcoming Kelly, Brian and Nikko home again very, very soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Have intermittent cell signals been SOS`s from one of the three men trapped on Mt. Hood? Three American men trapped there now day eight.

Out to Steve Rollins with Portland Mountain Rescue. Steve, if you were trying to send a signal with your cell, how would you do it?

ROLLINS: I`m sorry. Can you repeat that?

GRACE: If you were trying to send a signal with your cell, how would you do it?

ROLLINS: Well, just turning on the cell phone is going to make connection with the cell tower, and you know, you could text message, you could place a call out. You know, I would really try anything I could to get a message out, if I was in a situation like that.

GRACE: Out to Greg Davenport, survival expert, adventure traveler. Greg, thank you for being with us again tonight. As this search goes on, it is now day eight. They`ve been there since last Thursday, I believe. What are their chances of survival now?

GREG DAVENPORT, SURVIVAL EXPERT, ADVENTURE TRAVELER: We`re at the point where their will to survive is going to play a real big role in how well they do. I mean, it`s already apparent that they`re taking care of their exposure issue, that they`re taking care of their water need, and they`re even trying to signal. Now the will to survive is going to be that key ingredient to how well they come out of this. And I believe they have a will to survive because they instinctually have that inside them. And you know, I think there`s good odds they`re going to come out of this, provided they can make it through this weather that`s coming through.

GRACE: How much can a snow cave protect them from this weather? It`s up to 100 MPH now.

DAVENPORT: You know, a snow cave provides tremendous protection. Think about the fact that they`re basically in a home. And you`ve been in your house where the wind`s blowing outside and the rain`s coming down and it`s snowing, and you`re comfortable in that environment. That snow cave is going to allow them to be in 30-degree temperature. They don`t want to get it above 32 degrees because then it becomes a wet environment, and that`s really a bad thing. But at 30 degrees, they can be pretty comfortable, provided they have the proper clothing.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Leslie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Leslie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. First, a quick prayer to the families and rescuers. Second of all, I know with the hypothermia, I was just wondering, even though they`re experienced hikers, the extreme altitude -- will that affect them with the lack of oxygen?

GRACE: What about it, Steve Rollins?

ROLLINS: You know, lack of oxygen is probably not a big factor up there on Mt. Hood. More it`s their ability to stay dry, and as Greg said, their will to live and improvise with the clothing and resources they have.

GRACE: Do you agree, Greg?

DAVENPORT: Oh, I agree 100 percent. I mean, the will to survive right now is everything, and the ability to improvise, ie, making do with what they have to meet the needs is going to be a key ingredient.

GRACE: We`ll all be right back. But quickly, to "Case Alert" for tonight. The Salvation Army sending out a very different kind of bell ringer this holiday season, parolees. And they`re waiting outside of stores to take your donations. But wait a minute. Due to a shortage of bell ringers this year, the Salvation Army has turned to parolees (INAUDIBLE) Parolees are nonviolent offenders, and they are ringing Christmas bells to collect cash and finish up on their own community service sentences.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband proposed to me on Mt. Rainier, and we`re planning our 50th wedding anniversary there, so I know he`s coming off this mountain. They all love God so much, and we know that God is with them, god is watching over them and that he is going to watch over them in this -- the most difficult times of our lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Three Americans trapped somewhere on Mt. Hood, Oregon.

Out to the lines. James in Indiana. Hi, James.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. My question is, why would they have to go to court to get a court order when James`s wife could say it`s OK to go ahead?

GRACE: Really interesting. If it`s your personal cell phone or it`s in your name, your wife or your child cannot give consent for that.

Very quickly, to Kevin Allen with KXL radio. What`s the latest from your point of view?

KEVIN ALLEN, KXL RADIO: Well, Nancy, obviously, the weather is the biggest factor right now. Everybody is hoping that the weather will break after the storm that`s going to roll in tonight. It`s actually here right now. It`s even causing high winds down in the valley. But of course, it`s extremely high winds up on the mountain.

And the search crews, the search and rescue climbers, are still standing by. You heard the optimism from the family earlier in the show. That optimism is reflected also in the searchers. They really want to get up on that mountain, and they`re willing to go at a moment`s notice as soon as there`s any break in the weather. They`re hoping it may happen as early as tomorrow, but Saturday right now looks like their best bet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fashion Square Mall yesterday afternoon, a woman walks into Neiman-Marcus with her dog, asked valets to watch her BMW and her 2-year-old son. The valets wouldn`t talk about it today, but the police report shows she asked one of them, "Do you think it`s wrong?" Then says, "I`ll be right back. Don`t tell anybody."

And when 39-year-old Gardenia Johansson came back to her car carrying her dog, officers were waiting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She should be in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! She drove her BMW to take her dog shopping in one of the most exclusive and expensive malls in the world, but, ruh-roh, she forgot something: her baby. That`s right. She wanted the valet to take care of the baby.

Out to reporter with "The Arizona Republic," Michael Faresi (ph). Hi, Michael. What happened? Michael, are you with me?

MICHAEL FARESI (ph), "THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC": Correct. Yes. I`m with you.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

FARESI: This was actually an incident Monday. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: Go ahead.

FARESI: This was an incident from Monday at Scottsdale Fashion Square in downtown Scottsdale, where, according to police, this woman, Gardenia -- and I`ve probably mispronounced the name, Gardenia Johansson -- was arrested on suspicion of child endangerment for leaving her 2-year-old boy in a BMW while she went shopping inside.

GRACE: Yes?

FARESI: And she faces one charge of misdemeanor...

GRACE: OK, let me ask you a couple of questions. Where did it happen?

FARESI: At Scottsdale Fashion Square in Scottsdale, Arizona.

GRACE: And what was the store?

FARESI: This was an incident from Monday, not yesterday.

GRACE: Right. Yes, we heard you. Out to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, what store was it, and what did she say to police?

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: It was Needless Markup, Nancy. That`s what we affectionately call Neiman-Marcus.

Here`s the story: She pulls into the garage. She parks her own car, OK? We need to get that straight. She walks by the valets and says, "Will you watch my car?" She doesn`t say, "Will you watch my baby?" "Will you watch my car?"

And according to -- I have right in my hand, the police statements -- one of the valets says that she seemed to mumble something about a child being in it, almost as if it were an afterthought. And, by the way, she has one of those uber-trendy little teacup dogs that you can put in your purse that she had with her.

She said, like your reporter said, that, you know, "Well, is that wrong?" But she said, "Don`t worry. I`ll be real quick. Don`t tell anybody." She goes into the store, finds out that, you know, there`s gift- wrapping issues, and she`s got to stop at the makeup counter and get some eye makeup remover, and then runs into a girlfriend. And, you know, she argued -- oh, and get this. This is so sweet.

One of the valets got so worried, he said to another valet, "What should I do?" They called his mom, and his mom said, "You need to tell authorities." And that`s how the cops showed up. And they show up, and she resists the arrest. They actually have to, like, yank her into the car. She`s indignant. She doesn`t understand.

Her sister came to get the baby. And, by the way, she promised she was going to tip the valet very well for taking care of the child.

GRACE: Now, to Pat Lalama, was the child -- the child was asleep, correct?

LALAMA: Yes, yes. And imagine, Nancy, if the child woke up and, you know, probably in confusion, "Where`s my mommy?" Oh, here`s what I like, Nancy. She said that she didn`t want to bring in the child, because she didn`t want the child to see the gift that she was purchasing for him for the holidays.

GRACE: Out to Trenny Stovall, child custody advocate joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Trenny, how many times have children died of heat stroke in a car, been kidnapped from a car, the car`s been carjacked, then they turn around, and the kid`s in the backseat of the car? It`s amazing to me.

TRENNY STOVALL, CHILD CUSTODY ADVOCATE: It happens all the time. And for her to take those chances -- her comments that, "Don`t tell anybody, I`m going to tip you very well, do you think that`s wrong," that says she knew very well exactly what she was doing, and she knew that it was wrong. It happens every day. The children are harmed being left alone in vehicles.

And I can`t believe that, after all this time, this woman who obviously has resources and is probably educated took a chance like that with her son`s life.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman walks into Neiman-Marcus with her dog, asked valets to watch her BMW and her 2-year-old son. She asked one of them, "Do you think it`s wrong?" Then says, "I`ll be right back. Don`t tell anybody."

Not knowing what to do, the valet called his mom for advice. She said to call police. And when 39-year-old Gardenia Johansson came back to her car carrying her dog, officers were waiting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Mickey Sherman and Midwin Charles, felony child neglect?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m going to play the role here and get hollered at by everybody, OK?

GRACE: OK.

SHERMAN: No big deal. Come on. She made a mistake in judgment. She didn`t exactly hide the child in the back. It wasn`t 150 degrees. How many times do we have to mention it`s a BMW? Why we`re not saying which series BMW it is? OK, I`m more pissed off at her because she`s driving a nice car and she`s going to Neiman-Marcus as opposed to K-Mart in a Ford Escort. I mean, this is...

GRACE: No, I would be pissed off no matter what she was driving.

SHERMAN: But nobody was hurt here.

GRACE: Let me give you a scenario, Mickey Sherman. Imagine, for instance, a fundraiser the other night for a battered women`s center.

SHERMAN: Yep.

GRACE: And a well-known defense attorney sitting there with his wife, who in the middle of Michael Bolton, who`s three feet away singing his guts out, announces she`s going home to take care of the kids. Now, that ringing a bell, Sherman?

SHERMAN: Absolutely.

GRACE: Would it have been your wife?

SHERMAN: No, she wouldn`t have done that.

GRACE: Yes, she did. I saw her do it, as she had a fleet of nannies and babysitters at home, but, oh, yes, it was 9:00 and she was leaving. She didn`t care what Michael Bolton or anybody else thought about it. Now, you tell me that this lady was in the right again? Why is that?

SHERMAN: I`m not saying she`s in the right, but she didn`t commit the crime of the century. It wasn`t 100 degrees out there. And you know what`s so ironic here, Nancy? I don`t know if anybody`s going to admit it. But we would be more ticked off, the viewers, the public would be more ticked off if she left the dog and took the kid. I`m telling you: The animal rights people would be more pissed off that she left the dog in the car.

GRACE: Midwin Charles, what kind of case is she looking at?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I have to say that I agree with Mickey here. I mean, it`s an overcharge, if you ask me. Did she exercise poor judgment here? Of course. But she`s looking at six months here, and the fine, I believe, is about $2,500. And I think it`s an overcharge. I do think it`s a big deal; it`s a little bit extreme. And everyone seems to be outraged that the fact that she was driving a BMW and that she took the dog.

GRACE: I don`t care about her car. It`s just you two are the ones upset about that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But for the grace of God, you know? Elizabeth, let`s take a look at children that have died in cars, children that have been carjacked from cars, that have died of heat stroke, that have been kidnapped out of cars. There`s Cameron Gulbransen (ph). You may not know his name, but he died 2 years old in a car. Tiffany Quick (ph), she was 2 years old, died while left in a car. Take a look at this girl, Annabelle Bryant (ph), just 2 years old, as well. All of these toddlers. Romeo Chavez, 2 years old, died left in a car. Look at him, Bryan Puckett. This little baby, only 1 year old. Michael Kaiwarschauer (ph). There are so many more, Liz. I think we`ve made our point.

So, Mickey, what were you saying?

SHERMAN: I`m saying it`s no big deal. There`s as many times a thousand that didn`t die in the cars.

GRACE: No big deal.

SHERMAN: But as silly as it sounds, as silly as it sounds, she asked the valet guy to watch her, OK?

GRACE: Yes, you`re right. It does sound silly.

SHERMAN: Yes, but she still has a human being watching the child.

GRACE: Let`s go to the shrink. OK, let`s think out of the legal arena. I think she deserves a felony. "Mommy, why are you in handcuffs?"

Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A., thoughts?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, as a comment to Mickey, I mean, four children die every day as a result of child abuse. Neglect is the most common form of child abuse, and 40 percent of children are abused by their mothers acting alone.

But I`m interested in this whole dog thing. You know, dogs give you unconditional love, and 2-year-olds don`t always. They say, no, they get cranky, and so what did the mother choose? She chose the dog over the child.

And I also was thinking about pathological narcissism, where the person think that they`re above reproach, they don`t have to play by the normal rules of society. They lack empathy. They have disregard for the rights of others. And it seems that that really characterizes this mother, who -- Gardenia is no wilting flower, because I read one report that said she sent the police back in to get the gift.

GRACE: Let`s take a look exactly, Liz, at what was said between her and the valet and the police, if you could put that transcript up. She says, "Please watch my son in the car." "You just said you had a baby in the car?" "Yes, do you think that`s wrong?" "Yes, I think it`s wrong." "Well, I`ll be quick. Don`t tell anyone."

It`s Trial 101: a confession versus simply an incriminating statement. And in this case, although she didn`t outright make a confession, that incriminating statement will be used in court as if it were a confession.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She should be in jail almost. I mean, that`s the way I look at it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have four kids. We wouldn`t put our pets (INAUDIBLE) over our kids.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn`t leave my kid in the car, no matter what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. A mom takes her BMW to one of the nicest malls in the country and forgets one thing: Her baby`s in the car. It`s my understanding -- back out to Michael Faresi with the "Arizona Republic," she actually argued with the police about it?

FARESI: Allegedly she argued that she didn`t do anything wrong, and that she was wondering why she was arrested.

GRACE: Wondering what -- "Gardenia did ask me if I could go into the store and pick up the Christmas gifts for her. I told her no and escorted her over to my police vehicle." All right.

Bethany Marshall, is she in another world? While the cops cuffing her, she goes, "Oh, could you go pick up that thing I left in gift wrap?"

MARSHALL: Well, I was talking about disregard for the rights of others. I mean, in a sense, not only is the world her oyster, but everyone is there to serve her. I mean, the valet has turned into a nanny. The policeman has turned into a personal assistant to go into Neiman-Marcus. And I really think that what we`re seeing is a tremendously selfish woman who does not have cause and effect thinking and does not assess the ramifications of her actions.

GRACE: Guess what? Guess what, people? She`s a teacher, right, Ellie? Doesn`t she teach at a Montessori school?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At a Montessori school, yes.

GRACE: And, oh, her excuse, I can`t wait to talk about this with the defense lawyers. Here`s her defense at trial: I was planning to tip him really well.

Out to a special guest joining us, Dr. George Shapiro, internist at Columbia University. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Leaving a child in the car even 45 minutes, how dangerous is that?

DR. GEORGE SHAPIRO, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Actually, you know, I think the general public has a big misconception. One minute is actually too long. The normal car temperature`s about 70 degrees. And if you`re in the car for more than 10 minutes, that temperature rises 20 degrees.

If the baby`s in the car for 30 minutes, you have at least a 30 degree rise in temperature. So you`re talking about 100 degrees. And at 104 degrees, you start to see heat stroke. And at 107 degrees, you have a fatal event.

So this is a serious problem that keeps happening over and over again. And, you know, the attorneys were speaking before. I just -- you know, this is a serious problem. Most people just don`t understand. I think everyone is just ignorant about this. This is a dangerous situation.

No children should be left in the car at all, even one minute, especially even -- if it`s 80 degrees, the same thing can happen. It doesn`t have to be a hot day.

GRACE: Why do you say it doesn`t have to be a hot day? Because clearly it`s not hot. Of course, there, in Arizona, a different story.

SHAPIRO: A car basically is like an oven, and the sun keeps baking in the car. And the baby`s going to be cooked. And that`s basically what`s going to happen. And it`s happened before. And it was a case several years ago when a father brought a child to work, he got caught up at work and forgot about the baby. I think you showed the picture before, and the baby died.

GRACE: Yes, actually, we covered that at Court TV. In this case, it was 64 degrees outside.

SHAPIRO: I mean, yes, it`s just common. I mean, you know, usually what we`d like to do is basically never let this happen. I think one minute is too long. I think it`s a serious problem, and I think a lot of...

GRACE: Well, another issue, Dr. George Shapiro, is how good are 2- year-old`s motor skills?

SHAPIRO: A big problem with children is they`re very good. They can actually get out of the car seat. They can open the door. They can get some loose objects. They can choke. They can wake up. I think it`s a total dangerous situation.

GRACE: And another issue, out to Janette Fennel -- she is the president and founder of KidsinCars.org. You know, Janette, it`s a real pleasure and honor to speak to you. Thank you for being with us tonight. I really mean that.

In this particular case, say the child, as Dr. Shapiro has pointed out, did manage to get out. Where is he? He`s at the valet. What`s going on around him? Cars whizzing by.

JANETTE FENNEL, KIDSINCARS.ORG: Well, there`s, yes, the list goes on and on as far as why children should not be left alone in vehicles. Everyone for some reason wants to focus on just the heat issue. But that child, like we said, could get out of the car seat. He could play with the power windows. He could be strangled to death. He could lose a finger. He could knock the vehicle into gear. He could be abducted from that vehicle. He could get out, get caught in the parking lot traffic. I mean, the list goes on and on. He could find a lighter and start the car on fire.

GRACE: You know, another issue is -- I`m getting reports and calls in, as we speak, the high there today was 70 degrees. And as our expert Dr. Shapiro is saying, the car becomes like an oven.

Back to Janette Fennel, president and founder of KidsandCars.org, so many dangers of leaving kids in cars, not to include carjack, the car getting put out of gear and actually moving, the child getting out of the car, the child being kidnapped. What is your message tonight, Janette?

FENNEL: Well, the message tonight and every night is: You never leave children alone in a vehicle, not even for a minute, because all of these types of things, not only could happen, have happened. And we really need to learn from the things that have happened and be warned that it`s the most dangerous thing you could ever do or put your child in that position.

GRACE: Out to Mark Clark, the public information officer with the Scottsdale Police Department. Officer, thank you for being with us. What exactly happened here with this mom? I can`t believe she asked one of your guys or women to go in and pick up a gift at gift wrap.

MARK CLARK, SCOTTSDALE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes, she did. The report`s pretty accurate, as far as what happened. And, you know, she definitely did not feel as though she should be arrested. And, you know, we hope that she learns something from this whole experience when it goes down and through the court and it gets argued in front of a judge.

GRACE: Now, Officer Clark, let me get this straight: She took the little yap dog in with her, right?

CLARK: Yes, she did have the dog in her arms when she walked by the valet stand, and she came out with the dog in her arms.

GRACE: Out to Opal in Indiana, hi, Opal. Do I have Opal with me?

How about Cathy in Florida? Hi, Cathy.

Hey, Liz, let me know when you get those lines straight. I`m going to go back to Officer Clark.

Officer, I know child protective services is involved. What is the next step?

CLARK: Well, there`s really two things that are going on now. The case that the Scottsdale police officers started is going to go before the Scottsdale city magistrate to have that adjudicated. At the same time, child protective services is going to look at the long-term dangers, if there are any. They`re going to look at the home and see if there`s more there, and so they`ll make sure that the child`s safe beyond just this one incident.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only hint that we`ve got is that she says that she wants to go in and pick up his present. And I don`t know whether she was trying to keep that secret from him or, you know, how that works.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A mom goes to Neiman-Marcus and takes in her little yap dog in the pocketbook and leaves the kid in the car, asking the valet to, "Shh, don`t tell anybody." Hey, Liz. Do we have Opal in Indiana? OK, let`s try that again. Opal, are you there?

CALLER: Yes.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

CALLER: Hello. First off, I wanted to let you know we watch you a lot.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: Second off, I have a 2-year-old myself and a 4-year-old. I don`t understand, especially with her being a teacher, why she would leave a child in the car. With them giving her a light sentence, that`s showing other mothers that they can do that, and that`s dangerous.

GRACE: You`re absolutely correct. And a quick question, Elizabeth, is one of your children about 2?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he is.

GRACE: And, Opal, can your 2-year-old -- do you think it could get in and out of car?

CALLER: Oh, yes. My 2-year-old is very intelligent, and so is my 4- year-old.

GRACE: So back out to Trenny Stovall, what`s the appropriate sentence? I`m not even going to bother asking Mickey Sherman and Midwin Charles, OK? They`ll just...

(CROSSTALK)

STOVALL: Well, the appropriate sentence is the maximum sentence, because I don`t have any sympathy at all. The fact is: She left this child unattended.

The comments that I understood from the valet were, "Do you think this is wrong?" The answer was, "Yes." That means the valet did not consent to watch her child. Her child was left alone and unattended. And for the defense attorneys, what has to happen? One of those many, many options of how a child could have been harmed being left alone have to occur before then it is that serious? Because it`s that serious.

GRACE: Trenny Stovall joining us out of Atlanta, child custody advocate.

Let`s stop our legal argument for a moment to remember Army Private First Class Jang Ho Kim, 20, Orange County. His first tour of duty, he put Fullerton College on hold to enlist. He never wanted his family to worry. When they would ask, he would never admit he was actually in war-torn Baghdad. Jang Ho Kim leaves behind a grieving father and mother. Jang Ho Kim, American hero.

Thank you for inviting us into your homes tonight. And tonight, happy birthday to the show`s biggest fan, my mom, Elizabeth.

NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night, sharp 8:00. Until then, good night, friend.

END