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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Carnage in Iraq; President Bush Holds Iraq Strategy Talks With National Security Team; Battle for Somalia
Aired December 28, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, HOST: Tonight, a deadly month for our forces on the ground in Iraq. One hundred U.S. troops killed so far in December.
And two Border Patrol agents convicted of shooting a Mexican drug smuggler will start serving their sentences in January. Supporters say those agents were simply doing their jobs, and members of Congress continue to push for a presidential pardon.
We'll have those stories and a great deal more straight ahead.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, news, debate and opinion for Thursday, December 28th.
Live in New York, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Christine Romans.
ROMANS: Good evening.
No letup today in the deadly violence in Iraq. December, with 100 American troops killed, is the second deadliest month this year for U.S. forces, as President Bush says he's making good progress plotting the administration's new strategy on Iraq.
Ryan Chilcote reports on the circle of violence and death in Iraq as Iraqis await the execution of Saddam Hussein.
Elaine Quijano reports on the president's meeting with his top advisers to plan his new Iraq policy.
And Barbara Starr reports on the high level of U.S. military interest in the Somali war against radical Islamist forces.
We'll also have a report from that region.
But first we turn to Ryan Chilcote in Baghdad -- Ryan.
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Christine, the government isn't saying when the execution will happen, but Iraq's prime minister has said he would like to see Saddam executed before the end of the year. Saddam is clearly getting ready for the execution. He met reportedly today with two half-brothers also in U.S. custody and passed on letters to his family.
One thing is clear. Saddam's execution is unlikely to lead to a peaceful Iraq. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHILCOTE (voice over): As Iraq awaits the execution of Saddam Hussein, the violence continues. In just 24 hours in the Iraqi capital, a double bombing at a secondhand clothes market kills at least seven and sends dozens more to the hospital. Another roadside bomb at a gas station kills at least 10 and wounds at least two dozen.
A mortar attack on a mostly Shiite neighborhood in the Iraqi capital killing and wounding more innocent bystanders. Among them, a child.
And attacks on American troops continue. December has been the second deadliest month this year for U.S. forces. The fifth deadliest since the beginning of the war.
(on camera): Will executing Saddam lead to a more peaceful Iraq? The government hopes it will by demoralizing his supporters into giving up their fight.
(voice over): Musab al-Zabai (ph) is a Ba'athist from Saddam's party. He asked that we not show his face for his own protection. He predicts the violence will increase and it will only get worse for the Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They will not be able to walk the streets anymore. Just like the first Falluja battle, it will happen again. Saddam is a great man. They will lose, we will lose, the whole world will lose if Saddam dies.
CHILCOTE: Many loyalists say that the fight has been going on without Saddam since he was captured more than three years ago and will continue after his death. But Saddam's supporters only make up one part of the insurgency.
In Baquba, some extremists who want to build an Islamic state in Iraq took to the streets in a show of force. For them, Saddam never mattered. The chaos will continue, and only a complete American withdrawal will do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHILCOTE: Meanwhile, Saddam's chief attorney tells CNN two members of Saddam's legal team met with the former dictator today in prison to officially notify him of the court's decision to execute him -- Christine.
ROMANS: Ryan Chilcote reporting.
Eight more of our troops have been killed in separate incidents in Iraq. One hundred of our troops have been killed or died in Iraq so far this month.
2,989 of our troops can be killed or died in Iraq since the war began. 22,565 of our troops have been wounded, 10,107 of them so seriously they could not return to duty within three days. President Bush said today that he is making good progress in planning his new Iraq strategy. The president spoke after meeting with his senior national security advisers at his home in Crawford, Texas.
Elaine Quijano reports -- Elaine.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Christine, a senior Bush administration official says that the meeting today focused largely on the security situation in Iraq. As for where the White House stands in crafting that new Iraq policy, this official says the plan is "taking shape."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO (voice over): After a three-hour meeting with his war cabinet at his ranch, President Bush said he was making progress towards a retooled plan for Iraq. But he made clear he's not ready to announce changes just yet.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've got more consultation to do until I talk to the country about the plan.
QUIJANO: The president signaled those consultations include discussions with the Iraqi government, as well as talks with members of the soon to be Democratically-led Congress.
BUSH: Well, I fully understand it's important to have both Republicans and Democrats understanding the importance of this mission.
QUIJANO: A senior administration official says the president and his national security team are driving toward what the official called conclusions and final decisions.
Among those attending today's meeting, Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and General Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Their meeting took place against the backdrop of a new element in the Iraq debate, news that the late former president Gerald Ford disagreed with Bush administration's Iraq policy.
GERALD FORD, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think if I had been president, on the basis of the facts as I saw them publicly, I don't think I would have ordered the Iraqi war.
QUIJANO: Those remarks came in a 2004 interview with "Washington Post" reporter Bob Woodward, who agreed not the release them until after Ford's death.
Ford also criticized his former aides, Vice President Dick Cheney and former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, for putting the emphasis to go to war on weapons of mass destruction.
Bush aides responded to the disclosure by saying the administration and the president are focused on grieving and on keeping Gerald Ford's family in their prayers. But the revelation came one day after President Bush paid tribute to Ford as a man who led with "common sense," and at a time when the president is already facing intense political pressure to change course on Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: As for those consultations with lawmakers, a senior Bush administration official says after the tributes to Gerald Ford are over and Congress convenes once again, President Bush will reach out to lawmakers for additional discussions on Iraq -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Elaine Quijano.
Thank you, Elaine.
Ethiopian and Somali government forces entered the Somali capital of Mogadishu today. The forces met no resistance, but looting and violence in the streets was widespread. Radical Islamist militants who held the capital abandoned the city as those government troops approached.
Frederik Pleitgen reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Looting and gunfire in the streets of Somalia's capital, Mogadishu. Islamist fighters retreated from the city as troops of Somalia's interim government moved in. But order has yet to be restored.
"Security was tight before but violence started again today. And I don't know where the Islamic Courts militia and officials have gone," this Mogadishu residents says.
Somalia's transitional government fears the situation could get out of hand. It is calling on local warlords and clansmen to help curb the looting and violence.
The Islamists had vowed to stay in Mogadishu. Now, some vow to fight on. But others concede defeat.
"The Islamic Courts Council will accept and let the Somali people choose whatever administration they want. And we are ready to give up power," says the vice chairman of the Islamic Courts Council.
The tide turned against the Islamist fighters when Somalia's neighbor Ethiopia entered the conflict with its superior forces. It says about 2,000 Islamist fighters have died, another 5,000 wounded.
MELES ZENAWI, ETHIOPIAN PRIME MINISTER: Well, I believe something like 75 percent of our mission is complete. But we still have things to do. First of all, there are still are remnants of the extremist elements.
PLEITGEN: Ethiopia says it intends to continue tracking down what it calls hard-line jihadists in southern Somalia. (on camera): Ethiopia promises its troops will stay in Somalia for several days, maybe weeks, but not any longer. Those troops have not entered Mogadishu yet, but Prime Minister Meles Zenawi says that while his country does not want to offend Somalis, he will not let Mogadishu burn.
Frederik Pleitgen, CNN, Addas, Ababa.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Seventeen refugees drowned today while fleeing the violence in Somalia. Two boats carrying refugees capsized in the Gulf of Aden when they were chased by Yemeni patrol boats. One hundred forty people are missing. Yemeni authorities are now searching for survivors.
The United States has given tacit approval for Ethiopia joining with Somali forces to fight radical Islamist militants. Those radical Islamists controlled the capital, Mogadishu, for the past six months.
CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr has our report.
Barbara, why is there such a high U.S. interest in this regional conflict?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Christine, this is an area that many Americans may remember from 1993 from that "Black Hawk Down" incident, and it's an area that the U.S. military pulled out of rather suddenly. So that's what Americans may know about Mogadishu and may know about Somalia. But what they may not realize is this is an area that the U.S. military and U.S. intelligence has kept an eye on for years.
There is a very strong belief that that is Islamic militia that has been in control of so much of the country, while it has brought a measure of stability, it has also been a militia that shelters al Qaeda. The U.S. military believes that the militia has specifically sheltered al Qaeda militants that were responsible for some of the attacks in East Africa against the U.S. embassies in 1998 and against other attacks against U.S. and Western targets in the region.
So the concern is that Somalia remains a safe haven for al Qaeda, that it has been largely ungoverned. It has been ruled by militias. There is violence that is still, even now, rampant throughout the country. So it is an area of great concern -- Christine.
ROMANS: Recently you were in the Horn of Africa on a reporting trip spending time with the U.S. command. Do American military officials have confidence in Ethiopia's ability to contain the Islamic militants?
STARR: Well, what they really want to see is peace brought to Somalia. They want to see the new government in Somalia in power and see the Ethiopians withdraw.
But as you say, there are actually 1,800 U.S. troops in the Horn of Africa. They are mainly doing humanitarian relief missions, working with refugees throughout the region.
They are also training African militaries, including the Ethiopians. You see some of the footage we shot here in Ethiopia. They are training them in anti-terrorism capabilities.
So there is a very significant effort under way to try and get friendly nations in the region trained up so al Qaeda cannot move in -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.
Thank you, Barbara.
Still ahead, the manhunt for an illegal alien suspected in the shooting of two California police officers is over. We'll have a report.
The Democrats promise they'll pursue a new trade agenda, but will that stop American jobs from heading overseas? We'll have a special report.
And communist China says it plans to build up its navy to protect its national interests. We'll have a report on the impact China could have as a major naval power.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Just a few hours ago, the Long Beach coroner identified the illegal alien who was shot and killed by police at a Santa Ana strip mall parking lot. The man critically wounded two police officers in a gun battle a few days ago. And police say he had a long criminal history and had been deported not just once, but three times.
Casey Wian has the latest developments from Long Beach, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Illegal alien Oscar Gabriel Gallegos was the subject of a statewide manhunt after he opened fire on two Long Beach, California, police officers last Friday during a traffic stop. Gallegos had been deported three times, the last time in 1996, but returned to the United States and compiled a long criminal rap sheet. Now he's dead after a second shootout with police.
STEVE COOLEY, L.A. COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Lest there be any doubt, the evidence gathered from the investigation to date proves conclusively that Oscar Gallegos shot those two officers. And we're very, very pleased that this matter's been resolved.
WIAN: Gallegos faced attempted murder charges for shooting Long Beach police veteran (INAUDIBLE) and his rookie partner, Roy Wade (ph), who both remain hospitalized in critical condition. Wednesday, detectives in nearby Santa Ana, California, spotted a man they thought was Gallegos entering this strip mall. They called in backup. CHIEF PAUL WALTERS, SANTA ANA POLICE DEPT.: At that time, the suspect opened with a .40 caliber Glock pistol on our officers, opened fire. Our officers returned fire. Our officers are very fortunate that they were not killed or seriously injured.
WIAN: The shooting took place just as Long Beach's police chief, Anthony Batts, was announcing a $75,000 reward for information leading to Gallegos' arrest. Here a police official whispers the news to Chief Batts.
Several U.S. cities have struck deals with Immigration and Customs Enforcement to train officers to identify and apprehend illegal aliens. Long Beach has no such deal, and Chief Batts would not address the issue.
CHIEF ANTHONY BATTS, LONG BEACH POLICE DEPT.: I don't think the purpose of this news conference is to get involved in the political issues of immigration. I'm just sincerely happy that my officers are alive. I'm sincerely happy that we were able to bring him to justice.
WIAN: Batts praised the work of ICE despite Gallegos' history of repeat deportations and criminal offenses.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The two officers remain hospitalized and are facing a long recovery, but police officials who have spoken with the men say they are doing remarkably well, considering -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Casey Wian in Long Beach.
Thank you very much, Casey.
More evidence tonight that our border with Mexico is wide open to people from all over the world. Immigration officials now report a steady stream of Iraqis crossing the southern border illegally and then requesting asylum. Most of them are members of the Chaldean Christian minority in Iraq. An attorney for the Iraqis says smugglers are helping his clients cross the border.
This country's free trade agenda is one of the main factors in the war against the middle class. Free trade agreements have cost millions of Americans their job and lowered their wages. Now Democrats want to scrap the old free trade agenda and replace it with a new one.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): When Congress returns next week, a new team will be in charge. Democrats like Rhode Island's Sheldon Whitehouse and Sherrod Brown from Ohio are promising a new era on trade -- free trade being replaced with fair trade.
DAN GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: I think the Democratic control of Congress means that President Bush's trade agenda is going to come to a standstill.
SYLVESTER: Since President Bush took office, the Republican- controlled Congress approved free trade agreements with five Central American countries, Bahrain, Singapore, Chile, Morocco and Malaysia, just to name a few. Business groups say the free trade agenda has meant lower prices and more choices for Americans.
Labor unions and small businesses say these agreements have cost jobs, eroded the U.S. manufacturing base, and lowered wages for middle class families.
JIM SCHOLLAERT, AMERICAN MANUF. TRADE ACTION COALITION: Unfortunately, the free trade agreements entered into by both Democrat and Republican administrations for the last 20 years have not been mutually beneficial. And that evidence is coming home to roost.
SYLVESTER: First up on the Democrats' trade agenda? Fast Track Trade Promotion authority. This authority has allowed the White House to negotiate trade agreements with other countries with lightning speed and little congressional input. Fast Track is up for renewal June of next year.
THEA LEE, AFL-CIO: The extension of Fast Track Authority will be very controversial. I don't think it is likely to be extended in its current form. So I think the real question is whether the Fast Track Authority simply expires or whether there is a concerted effort to reform and rewrite that bill and whether that can be done in a way that really meets everybody's concerns.
SYLVESTER: Since 2000, when President Bush took office, the United States has signed more than a dozen free trade agreements. During that same period, more than 2.5 million manufacturing jobs have been lost.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Even with Democrats taking over an Capitol Hill, the Bush administration and the business community are still hoping to squeak through a few more trade agreements. South Korea, Peru and Colombia are in the pipeline -- Christine.
ROMANS: And how likely is it that Congress will sign off on the new agreements when lawmakers return?
SYLVESTER: It is somewhat doubtful. But as we all know, corporate America and their lobbying money certainly has a way of making lawmakers change their minds. But it will admittedly be a big fight ahead. What they're planning on doing, or trying to do, at least, is to get something through in the first six months before Fast Track Authority expires -- Christine.
ROMANS: All right. Lisa Sylvester.
Thank you very much, Lisa, from Washington.
Still ahead tonight, a red storm rising in the East. China's ambitions extend far beyond its shores. We'll tell you way its naval build-up may be a threat to U.S. interests.
Plus, outrage in the nation's capital over two Border Patrol agents who are convicted in the shooting of a Mexican drug smuggler. The agents are just days away from going to prison.
And for the second time in a week, people out West are preparing to dig out from under a massive winter storm.
We'll have a live report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Confirmation tonight that communist China is increasing its naval power. In a speech to military officers at a communist party meeting, Chinese president Hu Jintao called on naval commanders to be prepared to protect China's interest "at any time."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice over): Hu Jintao trumping his country's military ambitions. "We should strive to build a powerful navy that adapts to the needs of our military's historical mission in this new century and at this new stage."
Communist China building a blue water navy to defend what it sees as its sovereign territory. That includes the Taiwan Strait, where China is positioning itself to counter U.S. interests in the region.
Critics fear a showdown with China over democratic Taiwan and say the U.S. is essentially financing China's buildup with Washington's giveaway trade policies.
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "THE COMING COLLAPSE OF CHINA": China's prosperity has permitted Beijing to spend for its military. It's probably two and a half to three times as much. It could be even four or five times as much. And clearly, the Chinese are developing their military with one purpose in mind, and that's to defeating the United States.
ROMANS: Where many see aggression, others see Hu Jintao consolidating power over the military and justifying a costly military buildup.
SIJIN CHENG, EURASIA GROUP: Hu Jintao is very much trying to picture himself as a very righteous official, but also a nationalist. He will be someone who can protect the national interests of China that, if push comes to shove, China could really defend itself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: The United States and China have begun carefully rebuilding military ties after the deep freeze caused by a Chinese fighter jet collision with a U.S. spy plane back in 2001. Twenty-four Americans were held captive by the Chinese for nearly two weeks in that incident.
And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll.
Do you believe China's naval buildup is a direct threat to the United States? Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast.
Time now for some of your thoughts.
Bob in Texas, "Thanks to our growing trade imbalance, it may be comforting to know that one potential area of conflict in Asia will probably be solved peacefully. China will probably not need to take Taiwan by force. She can simply buy it."
Valerie in Ohio, "Will our politicians keep their heads in the sand, ignoring China's economic warfare until after the United States economic cataclysm can't be avoided? We are living in a financial house of cards, inviting China to knock us down."
Janet in Florida, "Who gave the ACLU the right not to disclose who the plaintiffs are in the case against Hazleton, Pennsylvania? This is America, and we have the right to know. They need to take the 'A' out of the ACLU because they are not representing Americans."
Actually, it was a judge who said they didn't need to know, the town of Hazleton, who was suing them.
E-mail us at loudobbs.com. We'll have more of your thoughts later on in the broadcast.
Each of you whose e-mail is read here will receive a copy of Lou's best-selling new book, "War on the Middle Class."
An unruly passenger is facing charges of interfering with a flight crew after hitting the wrong person on a US Airways flight to Florida. After a flight attendant refused to serve him more alcohol, the passenger became angry and allegedly hit a fellow passenger on the back of the head. The aggressive passenger was promptly detained. The recipient of the slap turned out to be the air marshal assigned to that flight.
Next, Republicans in Washington outraged over the refusal to grant presidential pardons to two Border Patrol agents convicted in the shooting of a Mexican drug smuggler.
President Bush today claims good progress on a plan for Iraq. General David Grange joins me with his assessment of the administration's handling of the situation there.
And another winter storm slams Denver. We'll have a live report next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Another dangerous winter storm slams into Colorado. The last one ruined Christmas for many travelers across the country. Now people are wondering if round two will ruin New Years as well.
This new storm is expected to be a major snowmaker all along Colorado's front range, and it may come with a one-two punch.
Reynolds Wolf joins us from Denver with the latest -- Reynolds.
REYNOLDS WOLF, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hi there.
We are experiencing just a tremendous change over the last six hours or so. Just a few flurries to begin with, then of course the temperatures began to drop. More and more snow has been coming in.
It's been falling steadily, I'd say, for at least the last two or three hours. Easily maybe three inches of snow on the ground in spots. And we're going to see more develop overnight. Here is how the forecast is shaping up. As it stands now, we're looking at anywhere from 10 to 20 inches of snowfall through the evening and into early tomorrow morning with the strongest part of the storm coming through right into the midnight hour.
Again, anywhere from 10 to 20 is what we are looking at as a possibility. We should get a little break in the action as we make our way into much of Friday. But here's the kicker, as we go back into Saturday and Sunday, there's a chance for yet another blast of snow, another 10 to 20 inches.
With that being said, there is the possibility of anywhere from 20 to 40 inches of snowfall in the Denver metropolitan area between now and into early Monday morning.
Already, people are doing the best that they possibly can to drive through it. I don't know if you can see behind me, but you can just make out a few cars on the roadways. I know we've been showing you some video of that.
In fact, take a look at a live traffic cam that we have. This live traffic cam is right along i-70. It doesn't really matter what the cross section is, the crossroad is, because it's basically the same view you're going to get anywhere up and down the i-70 corridor through the Denver metropolitan area -- snow, snow, snow and more snow.
What the city of Denver is doing is they're trying to keep up with the snow as it hits. They're trying to get it off the roadways, they've got the snowplows out there, the salt trucks. They're doing everything that they can.
People have been zipping along the roads with not too many issues. We have no major closures to report. However they are telling people that if you don't have to get on the roads, by all means stay at home. Stay at home and enjoy yourself there.
In terms of other types of travel, mainly at the airport, we've already had many, many cancellations. What the airport is advising you do, if you are a traveler, they want you to go online to your prospective airline and check out your flight status there. If you don't have to opportunity, go to the 1-800 number of that airline and try to get the information there as well.
Now if you need to rebook a flight, same thing. Use those two venues, either go online our or use the phone. The very last thing they want you to do, the very last thing they want you do to is go to the airport and stand in long, long lines with very angry people. That's basically what we have here from Denver.
What's interesting is although where we're dealing with the icy mess from the snow, as the storm system ejects from the Rockies into the central plains into the southeastern United States, it's going to affect millions of people because we're going to see heavy rain, strong storms, possibly damaging winds and hail and there's even the potential for some tornadoes in other parts of the country, namely the southern plains and the southeastern United States over the next 48 to 72 hours.
ROMANS: All right. Reynolds Wolf. Thank you very much, Reynolds.
The farewell to the godfather of soul is drawing crowds in Harlem. Thousands lined the streets of New York today as the horsedrawn carriage carrying the body of James Brown to the Apollo Theater where he made his stage debut in 1956. Brown died Christmas morning of heart failure at the age of 73.
Just moments ago, a long-time friend eulogized him from the stage at a tribute from the stage of the Apollo Theater.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: He became a super star on his own terms and he made you respect us. That's why we respect him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: A private ceremony for family and friends of James Brown will be held at a church near Augusta, Georgia tomorrow. The funeral service Saturday afternoon in Augusta is open to the public.
British officials say they've now confirmed that at least ten people were exposed to polonium 210, the radioactive element that killed a former Russian spy. Seven of the ten people worked at London's Millennium hotel, one of Alexander Litvinenko's stop it is day he fell ill. Health officials say those effected have not ingested enough polonium to put their health at risk.
Here at home, the FDA declared today that cloned food is safe to eat, bringing it one step closer to your dinner table. But some consumer and religious groups are strongly opposed to the idea. Among their complaints, cloned food has not been tested on humans. Many cloned animals are born sick or with deformities. And products from clones are unlikely to be labeled.
The FDA, though, dismisses these complaints. Officials say after six to 18 months, cloned animals are virtually indistinguishable from normal animals. And food regulators say labels is only needed only if a food is significantly altered by how it is produced.
Former vice presidential candidate John Edwards made it official, he's making another run for the White House. The formal announcement came today in New Orleans devastated by Hurricane Katrina. Edwards says the country needs a new spirit of activism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN EDWARDS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we actually want to change this country and we want to move America the way it needs to move, we're going to have to do it all of us together. Instead of staying home and complaining, we're asking people to help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Edwards himself pitched in to help in with the Katrina recovery effort this week, but he says the biggest responsibility for the next U.S. president will be to restore America's leadership role in the world starting with Iraq.
Returning to our top story tonight, it's been an extremely violent month for American forces in Iraq as the president works on his plan for our next step there. Joining me now to discuss the latest developments is General David Grange. Welcome to the program, sir.
GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.
ROMANS: You've got the president with his top advisers talking about the Iraq strategy, talking about their next move. Any changes in troop levels, any kind of fallout you expect from these most recent meetings?
GRANGE: Well, there's not too many good options left for Iraq because a lot of the mistakes were made in the past. Because that's water under the bridge what to do now.
I think what's really important is that the American G.I. gave the Iraqis a chance for freedom, and to do something with that freedom. It's up to the Iraqis. So I think whatever comes out of this puts a lot of pressure on the Iraqi government even if it's behind closed doors. And I think what you're going to see is the increase in the advisers to the Iraqi military and police. You're going to see an increase in some forces for no other reason than to show resolve and to be a rapid reaction force in case things get worse than they are today.
But in Iraq, whatever Americans decide to do, whatever we end up doing with the direction from the administration, is in the Middle East it's nice to be liked, but more importantly with the adversary, you have to be feared.
ROMANS: After the meeting, the president made these comments, we're going to listen to them, about the situation in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we were to not succeed in Iraq, the enemy, the extremists, the radicals, would have safe haven from which to launch further attacks. They would be emboldened, they would be in a position to threaten the United States of America. This is an important part of the war on terror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Your reaction, general?
GRANGE: Well, I believe that Iraq is now part of the conflict that started in the embassy seizure, American embassy in Tehran in 1979 and whether we went into Iraq or not, if we didn't go to Iraq it may not be a continuation. But we did so now it is. And we are, in fact, in conflict with extremist Islamists in Iraq. And already they control a good part of the Anbar province, through the Iranian influence, the extremists from Iran are controlling a good part of Baghdad. And so I believe that's correct. If we leave now, that will, in fact, be a center of gravity, a center of force, a networking for terrorists.
ROMANS: Saddam Hussein's death sentence could be carried out at any time. And the Ba'athist party loyalists, people loyal to Saddam Hussein have said that it will carry grave consequences. What do you think could happen at the execution of Saddam Hussein? What kind of reactions in the region and in the country?
GRANGE: I think the reaction will come from the insurgents, the Ba'athist insurgents. Not too many others in Iraq. I think many will be rejoiced but they'll be fighting between each other from counter reaction, reaction et cetera. I don't think much will happen in the region with the death of Hussein.
ROMANS: What about the Iranian influence in the situation in Iraq? As we've reported on this broadcast, the U.S. military has detained a couple of Iranian officials. There are grave concerns about links between the Iranians and the insurgency or at least in supplying the insurgency. How extensive is this influence?
GRANGE: I believe it's very extensive. And I'm surprised we don't talk about it more than we do. This just proves that it's there. The revolutionary guards, the intelligence services of Iran is, in fact, influencing the militias. What we should be concerned about more than anything else, most American GI's die from I.E.D.s, improvised explosive devices, in Iraq and the biggest supplier of those sophisticated devices comes from Iran. And so it's time to draw a red line with Iran to knock it off because it's a near term threat, more so, I think, right now than the nuclear issue because American GI's are dying every day because of it.
ROMANS: All right. General David Grange, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
ROMANS: Still ahead, time is running out for two border patrol agents soon to report to prison. A U.S. Congressman will join us with the latest on the efforts to secure them a presidential pardon.
And a presidential historian will be here to share her unique perspective on the legacy of former president Gerald Ford. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Twenty days from now, two Border Patrol agents are scheduled to report to prison for shooting and wounding a Mexican drug smuggler along the Texas border with Mexico. Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean were sentenced to 11 to 12 years in prison for failing to report the shooting.
Supporters of the two agents say the case deserves special attention and asked for presidential pardons for the two agents. Among those leading the charge to have Agents Compean and Ramos pardoned is California Republican representative Dana Rohrabacher.
Congressman Rohrabacher joins me now from Irvine, California.
Welcome to the program, sir.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER, (D) CALIFORNIA: Well, thank you very much.
ROMANS: So the year, basically, almost done. These guys going -- reporting to prison on the 17th. No presidential pardon. That concerns you. You think these two gentlemen should be pardoned and that not doing so sends a terrible message to our law enforcement?
ROHRABACHER: It sends a terrible message to our law enforcement. Our Border Patrol agents -- these men spent ten years of their life -- one of them was a five-year veteran, the other a ten-year veteran -- defending us at the border.
Now the president basically is saying, if anybody down at the border makes any mistake, even if it's a procedural mistake, they're going to throw the book at them and call them felons while siding and giving the benefit of doubt to the drug dealers and the criminals that are crossing our border.
That's the only message that this is going to send and that means criminals all over the world are going to say, "Hey, there's their Achilles heel right there. We'll cross the southern border and the Border Patrol agents can't even use their guns to stop us".
This is ridiculous.
ROMANS: ... and you've had -- many of your colleagues have signed is, some fifty at least. I want to read a part of that letter that you sent to the president and get you to sort of flesh out some of your concerns.
"The episode sends the wrong message to those who defend America at our border, to the American people and especially to the criminals who operate at our southern border. How can anyone believe we are serious about border security when the lives of two agents sworn to protect those very borders are torn apart but a vicious drug smuggler is given medical care and allowed to walk free?"
I guess you could argue maybe we're not serious about border security.
ROHRABACHER: Well, I don't think the president is serious about border security. And now we -- by letting these two Border Patrol agents go to prison, where they will probably be in great danger, and having their families destroyed -- their families have no health insurance anymore, they're losing their homes -- this president shows he's not on the side of those people who defend us, whether at the border or wherever.
You know, he postures himself with policemen all the time. Whose side is he on? He lets the drug dealers go, gives them immunity and throws the book at our guys for a procedural mistake.
This is outrageous and the American people -- I don't think the president is going to get back the trust that he had before this if he allows these two men, these brave heroes who are willing to take bullets for us, allows them to be sent away to prison.
ROMANS: Many people say it's just symptomatic of everything that's wrong with the entire border security and immigration system in this country. It's just completely broken.
ROHRABACHER: Oh, it's bizarre. I mean, the president's policy on the border is bizarre and that puts -- and insane, it's unworkable -- and that puts the Border Patrol agents in a horrible situation.
According to the president's position, the Border Patrol agents can't use their weapons. Well, who is going to stop when the Border Patrol says, "Stop"?
Thus, the president's policy is, there will be no control of the border.
ROMANS: We know that it's a dangerous, chaotic place along the border in many places. I mean, that's -- we've documented that many, many times. And it's interesting...
ROHRABACHER: And it's easing -- by the way, let me just note here...
ROMANS: Sure.
ROHRABACHER: It's not just the border. The border is where it all happens when it starts. All of that chaos and the bloodshed is coming right into our cities. We had two Long Beach police officers who were shot just two days ago by an illegal immigrant. The people -- I'm holding up right now a petition, it's 156,000 signatures asking the president -- this is -- these are petitions asking the president to give a pardon to these people. It was collected by who? The family of David Marsh (ph), a sheriff who was murdered by an illegal immigrant. People are losing their lives, our Border Patrol agents, our police officers, and our own citizens are being raped and murdered because we're not doing what's right down at the border. And the president has to assume a great deal of responsibility for that.
ROMANS: There's also a Democratically controlled Congress now and there's talk of a new bipartisan push to change or to weaken some of the requirements for a pathway of citizenship for the people who are already in this country illegally. There's also talk simply not funding that border fence that the president signed -- the bill the president signed.
Do you think that you're going to see immigration reform this year that's going to have some serious weaknesses compared with what you would like to see?
ROHRABACHER: Well, what's happened is the American people have been fooled again. They took illegal immigration, the media in general, took illegal immigration off the front burner. Remember, in about August and September, it was a big issue because the House of Representatives passed a very strong illegal immigration bill.
Well, all of a sudden, it wasn't being considered any more after September. And thus, what we ended up with is electing a Congress controlled by Democrats -- and the Democrats, of course, always vote wrong on illegal immigration, half the Republicans vote wrong, but the Democrats almost always -- so now we have a president who wants to weaken -- basically weaken our immigration controls by giving amnesty. He won't call it amnesty. But he wants to legalize the status of those who are here illegally. And now he's got a Democrat Congress to work with. So he'll be able to accomplish that and what will that mean?
People all over the world, millions of them will see and say, "Hey, if we can go there illegally and out wait the Americans, they'll give in and give us all the benefits of American citizens."
It's terrible.
ROMANS: We do know if that if you've been waiting legally anywhere in the world to come here, you've been waiting for maybe 20 years. And during that time, you could have come here illegally and would have already had U.S. citizenship. So we've already sort of given by our policies over the years, sort of given rewards for the illegal entry and have penalized people who are trying to come here legally.
And it's, you know, something that...
ROHRABACHER: And we wonder why people come here. And we also -- with the president saying a Border Patrol agent can't use his weapon unless he's being shot at at that moment, we wonder why the criminals are heading to the southern part of the border of the United States.
ROMANS: We have to leave it there.
Thank you so much, Congressman. I really appreciate it.
ROHRABACHER: Let's hope he pardons Ramos and Compean. Please, call the White House. But make your voice heard.
Pardon these two heroes.
ROMANS: Thank you so much, sir.
We have to move on. Just ahead, President Ford left behind some sharp criticism of the current president's Iraq policy. We'll have a presidential scholar. We'll ask here how she foresees the legacy of George W. Bush.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Tomorrow begins the six-day long state funeral for Gerald R. Ford. Presidential historian Joan Hoff joins me now to look at the 38th president's legacy and the legacy of the current president, who's trying to work on security measures in an increasingly chaotic Iraq. Welcome to the program.
JOAN HOFF, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thank you for having me.
ROMANS: We've been hearing so much about the legacy of Gerald R. Ford described as a heroic man, decent, honest, courageous. What about that legacy as it pertains to foreign policy?
HOFF: Well, that's the problem. I think because it's true, he was a decent, good man -- we all know that good guys sometimes come in last. And he didn't get credit for the positive aspects of his foreign policy. And at the same time, he inherited a number of things from Nixon and from Kissinger, which gave him a negative reputation.
But let's look at what I think are the positive things for which he didn't get credit. Helsinki, the signing of the Helsinki Accords. The amnesty he gave to those who were protesting the war out of the country. The early negotiations with Panama, to give the Suez Canal back to Panama. And even the entrance of Vietnamese refugees were all positive things, which were criticized enormously at the time by conservatives in all the parties.
And then he inherited from Nixon, of course, the fact that we had a very humiliating way to get out of Saigon, and we inherited from Nixon policies toward Latin America the coop in Argentina, which we basically supported. The Pinochet regime we were supporting.
And then the whole thing having to do with the Mayaguez affair, that ship, the merchant ship where 40 Americans were captured by Cambodians.
And this was all Kissinger's advice. By the time Kissinger said let's take that island where they thought the crew was, they weren't there any longer.
ROMANS: Thirty-nine crew members eventually...
HOFF: Yes. ROMANS: ... saved, but 41 rescuers were killed.
HOFF: Forty-one rescuers were killed, and untold numbers of Cambodians. And so, I -- it's sad for me to see that happen to Ford, because he did make some very courageous political and moral decisions, and yet he was hamstrung, or really just overburdened, by the negative aspects, which I really blame on the foreign policy -- on Kissinger, because Kissinger was the one who was promoting some of the more negative aspects of his foreign policy.
ROMANS: In July 2004, President Ford did an interview with Bob Woodward. He spoke out about President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORD: I don't think if I had been president, on the basis of the facts as I saw them publicly, I don't think I would have ordered the Iraqi war.
I would have maximized our effort through sanctions, through restrictions, whatever, to find another answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Yesterday, President Bush sort of heralded this man's common sense, and then today we learn that he was someone who questioned Bush's decision.
HOFF: Yes, and you have to remember that Ford was a classic moderate Republican. That meant he was non-interventionist even as president. And I think he remained non-interventionist after the presidency. And he was a fiscal conservative.
He was everything the radical wing of the Republican Party no longer is.
And so his statement there, I think, was perfectly in keeping with his moderate Republican position.
He, if he had been elected in '76, or if Nixon hadn't resigned, I think moderate Republicans would have continued to control the Republican Party, and we wouldn't have had the Reagan presidency...
ROMANS: So his defeat set the stage, really, for a rise of neoconservativism?
HOFF: Yes. And you had neoconservatives opposing him in the primaries in 1976. He didn't lose that election because of the pardon, although it was unpopular at the time. He lost the election because Reagan supporters sat on their hands during that election.
If you look at the primaries, wherever Reagan won the primaries, those states did not come out 100 percent for Ford in the election.
ROMANS: We have to turn to the legacy of George W. Bush. You say that legacies are based more on perception than reality. What is now, I guess is the perception of the legacy of George Bush?
HOFF: Oh, that's it. If a legacy is 90 percent perception when the president goes out of office and 10 percent reality or facts, George Bush is the worst of all possible worlds, because reality and perception are 100 percent. One hundred percent is the perception that Iraq has failed, and 100 percent is the reality that Iraq has failed, so he's in the worst of all possible situations.
And he's frantic about this legacy. And he's getting advice at the moment from two different groups. The neocons now want him to go for broke, probably increase the troops, get a quick, clean victory if possible. And also possibly bomb the nuclear facilities in Iran.
And what I'm calling the retreads, those people from his father's administration and of that generation, the Iraqi Study Group people, they are -- what are they preaching? They want a Vietnamization of Iraq, an Iraqization of that war. And if you look back to Nixon, that war continued for three years after Iraq -- after Vietnamization, and it's probably going to continue with the recommendations of that group.
ROMANS: We have to leave it there. Fascinating issues to dig into. It's hard to talk legacy when you're in the middle of it sometimes.
Joan Hoff, presidential historian, thank you so much for joining us, Joan.
HOFF: Thank you.
ROMANS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll, and more of your thoughts. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Now the results of tonight's poll: 83 percent of you believe China's naval buildup is a direct threat to the United States.
Time now for more of your thoughts.
Ron in Utah -- "President Ford left a legacy behind that will be remembered for generations, and he will undoubtedly go down as one of the finer presidents this nation has ever seen."
Nancy in Tennessee -- "We remember President Ford for having the insight and integrity to pardon President Nixon. Why can't President Bush pardon Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean?"
Karen in Arizona -- "Why is anyone surprised about former members of Congress working as lobbyists for corporations? Haven't they been working for them all along?"
And Martin in Texas -- "I would like to see legislation passed that would phase out lobbying. It only serves the interests of the privileged few, who are able to buy their way into the halls of Congress." Thanks for being with us tonight. For all of us here, good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" starts right now with Ed Henry and Suzanne Malveaux -- Ed, Suzanne.
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