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Nancy Grace

Another Teacher-Student Sex Scandal; Defense Attorney Accused of Masturbating Inside Philadelphia Criminal Justice Center

Aired January 17, 2007 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Tonight: Yet another female teacher sex scandal, this time in Salt Lake City, Utah. A 30-year-old married, church-going mother of two admits having sex with an underage boy, one of her students. But she gets of with a sweetheart plea deal. Is this another case of the double standard of justice, when the sexual predators are female?
And tonight, a defense lawyer, yes, a defense lawyer out of Philadelphia facing multiple charges of sex assault on an underage girl, this well-known veteran attorney busted completely naked as a young girl in tears huddles in a corner, the crime scene, believe it or not, a courthouse! And it`s the same halls of justice where this attorney has tried cases. Can you say disbarment?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there`s definitely a double standard. In the cases that I`ve seen, when it involves a male, there`s definitely a certain amount of jail time involved, a minimum of three years, and typically far greater than that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, it`s a part of our sexist part of society, in that, typically, a lot of times, young males are looked upon as not being able to be victims, that it is a matter of conquest instead of victimization. And in the social services field and the law enforcement field, that`s just not the way it is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Teachers are very special, and we place great trust in them to do what is both morally and ethically right. We may not require perfection, but we certainly do not intend teachers, or any other adult, to be having sexual relations with our 14-year-old children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. She was a married, church-attending wife and mother of two young daughters, and a teacher to boot. But prosecutors say the Utah woman proceeded to entice and have sex with a 16-year-old boy, a student in her class. Prosecutors say the sex occurred in her home and in his car.

So after breaking the law, and violating her responsibilities as an educator, what was her punishment? How about 90 days behind bars. Tonight, we here at the NANCY GRACE show are holding that judge in contempt! And our panel of experts will dissect America`s ever-escalating female teacher/male student sex epidemic. What the heck is going on here?

For the very latest on the Utah case, let`s go straight out to my colleague and friend, investigative reporter Pat Lalama -- Pat.

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Hey, Janie, something in the water in Utah, it seems. And this teacher, Melinda Lee DeLuca, was an American sign language teacher. That body language must have been something because about October, November of 2005, she, according to the courts and authorities, enticed the 16-year-old to have sex with her on at least, as you mentioned, two occasions.

Well, it finally came to light. She was originally charged with two felony counts, two second-degree felony accounts. But she plea-bargained. It was reduced to one third-degree felony count. She could have gotten five years from the get-go, but she`s getting 90 days. And I guess some consolation would be that the judge gave her 30 more days than what the prosecutor had asked for.

The defense attorney said, Hey, look, she`s got no record. She`s really sorry. Everybody seemed to buy that. She does have a whole host of things she has to do besides being on probation. She has to get help. She has to pay for his counseling. All kinds of things she`s got to go through.

But some still say, Hey, you know, this is not right. Defense attorney says she started the strange behavior after she started taking an Topamax (ph), an antidepressant. It`s also an anti-seizure medication. He said she`s not blaming her behavior on that but thinks it could be contributed. She was also drinking and smoking pot at the time. But everyone seems to agree that she is sincerely remorseful, and a lot of people say that`s why she got 90 days.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, there is a double standard, and there is a case out of Tennessee that brings this whole trend home, and that is the case of Pamela Rogers. This teacher had sex with a then 13-year-old student. She did a very short time in jail. And the only thing they asked -- well, the main thing they asked when she got out on probation is, Don`t contact the boy.

Look at this videotape! This is the videotape that she created and sent to the boy while out on probation. This is stripper stuff! This woman is wearing a stripper pantyhose. And look at that glove! What in God`s name is going on here? And when people look at this kind of video through their adult eyes, they say, especially if they`re men, Well, she`s doing him a favor. The kid got lucky.

Nonsense, say the experts. They say that a minor male is just as traumatized as a minor female when they have sex with an adult, especially a teacher, a person in a position of authority. It is really a shocker.

We are very honored and delighted tonight to have with us via phone the mother of the victim in the Utah case. She wishes to remain anonymous, for obvious reasons, to protect the identity of her son. Thank you for joining us, ma`am. We appreciate your having the courage to step forward so we, as a nation, can better understand this crazy epidemic.

You know, a lot of people do take it lightly when it`s a male victim, but your son, I understand from what you told the court, has suffered tremendously. Tell us about how he has suffered.

MOTHER OF VICTIM: Well, he`s suffered quite a bit since the beginning of this, probably prior to even when we found out about it. One thing I would like to clear up is a lot of people think that it was my son that went to the police, and you know, wanted to nail her and get her in trouble and that kind of thing. And I`ve heard a lot of that even since the sentencing. And that wasn`t the case at all. I mean, he felt a need to protect her and not tell on her and cover for her and that kind of thing. And it wasn`t him that went to the police, it was the police that came to us, and then he was subpoenaed. And so...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How has your son been affected psychologically? Because I`ve heard reports that it`s affected his schoolwork, it`s affected his relationship with his friends, sports, et cetera.

MOTHER OF VICTIM: It has. My son has been an athlete ever since he could walk. His sports of choice were basketball and football. He loved them. This was his motivation to do a lot of things, including schoolwork and getting good grades. And he had a lot of friendships since he was very young because of his involvement with sports. And in turn, you know, we developed, as his parents, friendships with a lot of parents and people that we attended these events with.

And you know, everyone in the community has seemed to turn their back on him. And, quote, unquote, I think what they consider him now is a "bad kid" that they don`t want their children to be involved with because of fear that he might influence them in a negative way.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s outrageous!

MOTHER OF VICTIM: What`s that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s outrageous! He`s the victim. That`s outrageous. He`s the victim.

MOTHER OF VICTIM: Yes, he`s the victim. But they -- for some reason, they see him as just as responsible for it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, Gloria Allred, who is an attorney and a child advocate, has covered many of these types of cases. Gloria, also the author of "Fight Back and Win," you just heard what the mother of the victim said. In this case, her son has been ostracized, and some of the kids are blaming him. Imagine not only having to go through this trauma, and then the guilt of this woman gets in trouble and he experiences conflicting emotions, but then people blame him. What`s going on with that? It seems so irrational to me.

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: It is. But on the other hand, he`s 16 years old and people are not understanding that even though he is 16, he`s still a child. And it is just absolutely wrong and an abuse of power for an adult, particularly an adult in a position of special trust, like a teacher, to take advantage of that position of power and trust, and betray it with a child. So no, they shouldn`t blame the victim.

And even if the victim had gone to the police, that would be nothing to apologize for because that should not be a kept a secret. It should never have happened in the first place, and she should be prosecuted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ninety days, Gloria. What do you make of that? Ninety days behind bars. And I`d like to mention the name of the judge who passed that sentence, Judge Stephen Roth, third district. He is the one who was appointed in January of 2002 by the governor, who issued that ruling.

ALLRED: He may very well have decided that he wanted to give her a sentence longer than the prosecutor asked for. Apparently, he did ask -- give her a longer sentence. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who think that it should be even longer than three months, that it should be, you know, substantially longer, to teach her a lesson, to send a message to the community that this is absolutely wrong.

She is on probation. If she violates that probation, she is going to go back into the slammer. That`s exactly what happened to Mary Kay Letourneau when she was given a chance after abusing a child. She violated probation, and she ended up having to serve the whole term, which was I think seven years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the lines are lighting up on this. This is a highly controversial issue. Bill from Canada, your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I love your show. We watch it every night. I can`t believe I`m on the line. But I just wanted to say, I don`t know what the laws are in the States, but if this was a male teacher having sex with a female student, that guy would be listed as a rapist, a pedophile, whatever. He`d get 10 to 15 years. Now, what do we have to do to put harsher sentences against these women that are doing this to these students? I just think it`s unfair, and I just wanted to hear your comment on it. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mike Brooks, former D.C. police officer who served with the FBI terrorism task force, the obvious common theme here is double standard, double standard. Women, especially attractive women, just don`t get the kind of jail time that a male teacher would get for having sex with a female minor.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Not at all, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why?

BROOKS: I have to agree with our caller, Bill, from Canada. That`s just -- there`s a double standard. Something has to be done about this. Now, if this was a police officer, a DARE officer who was in the high school teaching 16-year-old females about anti-drugs and he did something with her, they would have buried him under the jail! This is unbelievable. And he would have been a registered sex offender, everything else. Is she? Probably not.

And I also fault the prosecutor, Jane, because the police officers that go out there, they investigate the crime, they put the case together, they give it to the prosecutor. This prosecutor plea bargained it down, and then he was going to give -- he wanted to give this girl a lesser sentence than the judge gave him? He ought to be held in contempt also.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right. The prosecution didn`t fight for a very long jail term, either.

We would like to go to Owen Lafave, the ex-husband of Debra Lafave, who became quite infamous for having sex with an underage student. In fact, Owen, you wrote a book about it, which I just finished reading -- very well done -- "Gorgeous Disaster." In the book, you outline how Debra suffered from bipolar. And of course, this woman in this Utah case says she was taking anti-seizure medication that had potent side effects that affected her psychologically, and that she ended up drinking and smoking pot. Are these excuses, or are they valid explanations for this kind of bizarre behavior?

OWEN LAFAVE, DEBRA LAFAVE`S EX-HUSBAND: Well, the most outrageous thing is they said it wasn`t excuses. Well, if it`s not an excuse, why mention it at all? And where does it say somewhere that someone that`s bipolar or who takes medication all of a sudden becomes a child molester? That`s something that is deep within them and they`re acting out, and they`re using these as excuses. They`re not excuses. They`re not reasons for their behavior.

They need to be thrown in jail. We need to send a message that if you`re out there and you`re having sex with children, we`re going to find you, we`re going to hunt you down and we`re going to put you in jail and we`re going to send a message that we can`t tolerate this anymore. Children are our most precious commodity. We need to protect them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I know your wife did not do jail time, although you wanted to see her do jail time. In your book, you also talk, though, about the traumas that she experienced early in her life. You know, I just finished writing a book about secrets and crime and how they intertwine. It seemed that you were saying that she had experienced some traumas in her childhood. She was raped. Her older sister died in a terrible car accident. She had a same-sex relationship, you said, in high school that was abruptly terminated, after which she attempted to take her own life.

Are all these things true, to your knowledge? And did they affect her mental state? Because that`s a lot of trauma to put on one person.

LAFAVE: No, you`re absolutely right, Jane. And again, it`s not an excuse. I think they`re all contributing factors. And as you may very well know from some of the research that you`ve done, you know, this seems to be a pattern. Offenders later in life were typically victimized or had traumatic events happen to them earlier in life. But again, they`re not excuses. There`s reasons we can possibly explain why it happens, but we all have choices as individuals to say, Look, this happened to me, and I`m not going to let it happen to someone else.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Paul Henderson, San Francisco deputy DA, very briefly, how do we get the balance here between being understanding to a person who`s experienced a lot of trauma and making them accountable for really, really outlandish behavior, and dangerous behavior?

PAUL HENDERSON, SAN FRANCISCO DEPUTY DA: Here`s how you do it. You keep the accountability on the defendant and focus on the victims. I think in cases like this, society tends to marginalize the seriousness of it by looking at the kids and looking at the boys and saying, Well, they engaged in a sexual relationship with an older woman, and so it`s less severe than other types of crime because people like to feel that the child may have had the physical maturity to engage in sexual conduct.

But what they don`t focus on is the victim in this case not having the emotional maturity to make a decision to engage in a sexual relationship with an adult. That`s why this behavior is a crime, a crime that needs to focus on the victim.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re basically correct.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: To tonight`s "Case Alert." A 41-year-old pizza shop manager accused of kidnapping two Missouri boys, Ben Ownby and Shawn Hornbeck, facing new charges of armed kidnapping. According to a probable cause affidavit, Michael Devlin used a gun in the abduction of Shawn Hornbeck four years ago. Devlin is also the focus now of the 1991 abduction of Charles Arlin Henderson. Henderson, 11 at the time, vanished while riding his bike in eastern Missouri. Fifteen-year-old Shawn Hornbeck also disappeared riding his bike. Devlin set to be arraigned on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecuting attorney for Washington County has charged the defendant with two counts. Count number one, kidnapping, which is a class B felony. The second count that we have filed is that the defendant committed the unclassed felony of armed criminal action, and the defendant committed that felony of kidnapping by, with and through the use, assistance and aid of a deadly weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. Female teacher/male students sex abuse scandals continue to plague the nation. While some make light of cases involving teenage boys, experts say the fallout for these young male victims can be intensely traumatic and actually last a lifetime.

Let`s go to our clinical psychologist, Caryn Stark. I`ve talked to experts, Caryn, who say that at this age, minor males, this is way too emotionally intense for them, and that it has fallout for the rest of their lives because at this stage, they are creating ideals, they are looking for role models, and this presents a corrupt ideal and a corrupt role model, and they end up following that pattern in life.

CARYN STARK, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s absolutely correct, Jane. Think about it. Here`s somebody who`s in a position of power and a position of trust. How will this boy, this victim, ever trust another adult, really believe that somebody is there to protect him? It is not a safe situation. And my heart goes out to anyone who`s in a situation like that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Again, the lines lighting up. Let`s go to Debbie in Georgia. Your question, Debbie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My question is, Is there a profile of women who perpetrate these acts against teenage boys? And the second thing I would say real quick is that I remember this happening in the 1970s, when I was in the 7th grade. So I don`t think it`s a new phenomenon, I think it`s continued and more reported.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go to Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, who has observed so many of these cases. Is there a profile? We`ve all talked about how so many of them are attractive, but we don`t really know if that`s statistically accurate.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, this is a situation where I think that it sounds like a young boy is with an attractive teacher, so there`s your profile. And you see all these beautiful teachers. You don`t usually see an unattractive teacher raping a child, but this is what this is.

But let me just come to the defense of the judge in this case and applaud the defense attorney because the way I understand this whole plea was actually finalized was the victim`s mother and the victim`s family met with the defendant and was OK with the deal because I think, very intelligently, she factored in the stress that the victim would have to go through in the trial. He`s already getting teased right now just for coming forth maybe.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The mother`s right here. Let`s ask the mother of this boy, very briefly, did you approve of this plea deal?

MOTHER OF VICTIM: You know, through all the suffering that we`ve gone through, as a family we decided prior to the sentencing that we were not going to let her sentencing affect our ability to heal as a family. And so in terms of what we wanted in her sentencing, we did not -- we didn`t say what we wanted. We didn`t give any advice, you know, recommending what we felt would be appropriate. We just -- we didn`t want to be put in the place to make that decision. That`s what the judges are for, and we left that in his hands.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I understand...

MOTHER OF VICTIM: We`re going to be OK as a family, regardless of (INAUDIBLE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is wonderful. I understand you`ve forgiven this woman, too, which is truly admirable in light of everything.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." A teenage love triangle allegedly the motive behind a videotaped beating of a 13-year-old girl that made its way onto the Internet. The victim thought she was meeting another student at school to resolve a dispute, but she was attacked instead. The video shows three teenage girls punched, kicked and violently pulled the victim`s hair, as a group of young boys stand around and watch. The girls have been suspended and charged with assault as juveniles.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we`re just sending the wrong message to our teachers, that you know, it`s OK to have sex with someone that`s underage, and in fact, the law might be wrong. You know, it`s not so bad that they`d have to go to jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, filling in for Nancy Grace. We are talking about the other victims in the teacher/student sex epidemic. What about the husbands of the suspects? In the Utah case, reports are the husband had to sell his house and move to another part of town.

Now, Owen Lafave, we are looking at video of your ex-wife, Debra Lafave. How did the case impact you? Because you, in your book, describe being taunted by radio deejays, people violating your privacy. Tell us about some of the things that you suffered.

LAFAVE: Jane, it was probably one of the most difficult experiences I had to live through in my life, extremely painful, extremely humiliating. I really had no sense of privacy. I was hounded by media on a regular basis. And you know, I really chose to look into the overall topic and try to figure out why it`s happening.

I wrote the book. I`ve talked to a number of experts. I truly believe that these boys are victims. And you know, I`m actually working on a documentary right now and planning to go to Washington to start an initiative to propose that, you know, teachers and students are educated in our school system, as well as propose that there be a minimum jail sentence for people who commit sexual crimes on children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I felt really sorry for you, reading the passages where you said you would wake up in the morning and turn on the radio and listening to local radio deejays making fun of you and taunting you and questioning your abilities as a husband. That`s got to really hurt.

LAFAVE: Oh, yes. I mean, it hit home. I really did not want to leave the house and felt compelled not to turn on the television. I didn`t want to read a paper. I didn`t want to turn on the radio. I mean, I really felt that I had nowhere to go without someone talking or giggling behind my back.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So sad.

Well, still to come: A veteran defense attorney caught naked in a courthouse with an underage girl. He is facing multiple sex assault charges.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Another teacher behind bars. After numerous warnings by the judge, Pam Rogers just will not leave the 13-year-old victim alone. Now, back to jail for sending the child sexy videos on her cell phone herself, and the lady won`t stop.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here we go again. A 32-year-old Colorado teacher, Darcy Ethin (ph), has been arrested on the charge of sexual assault.

GRACE: Another teacher accused of child molestation. I`m talking full-blown rape, this time a female offender, including one alleged incident on the high school football field.

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Here we go again. Yet another teacher-student sex scandal. Carrie McCanley (ph) accused of having sexual conduct with a 17-year-old male student.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On and on it goes. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. More and more and more cases of female teachers having sex with their underage male students.

Now, while the stats from Utah show more male teachers are still investigated for alleged sexual activity with students than are female teachers, sometimes, you know, this is because the female teachers are very, very attractive, as in the case of Debra LaFave.

We`re looking at this entire issue, because this is a societal double standard. You know, the courts are just a reflection at the end of the day of society`s outlook. I`d like to go back to the mother of the victim in the Utah case. And she is not giving her name in order to protect the identity of her son.

You know, for so many people, this is not serious, unfortunately. Even in your son`s case, there were published media reports kind of making light of it, that the kid got lucky, and yet your son has suffered horribly. To bring the point home, tell us how your son has suffered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know, I think the biggest thing that I`m most outraged about is the fact that my son has been robbed of his high school education. He basically has a 10th-grade education. This occurred during the first semester of his junior year. And as soon as it became breaking news, he left the school and hasn`t been back since.

And he gets work that -- he`ll receive a diploma, because work is sent home to him to do, but he then turns it into the teacher, and the teacher turns it into his other teachers. And he does about a half an hour of schoolwork a day at the most.

And beyond that, I`m just angry with the way the school has handled my son. I would think that the teachers would be outraged with the behavior of their co-worker, and the opposite has happened. It seems more like they`re harassing my son and attacking him. And it`s unfortunate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re saying some of the teachers have harassed your son?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son has been called a little f-er, by a teacher. My son has been given failing grades that we were told were computer glitches, and suddenly were turned into A`s, which is what he earned.

He also was an athlete on the high school basketball and football team. And we were told that, due to parents complaining about his ability to, I guess, influence the other kids, they didn`t want him on the team, because, again, he`s a, quote, unquote, "bad kid."

But unfortunately, I think it was more about them not wanting that competition for their children, because he was, you know, the captain of the basketball team and one of the star players.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, he`s considered a distraction. And that is such a tragedy.

Gloria Allred, you have represented many secondary victims in cases, people who suddenly find themselves in the middle of a media storm not of their own making. Does this surprise you? Because I remember, even in the Mary Kay Letourneau case, that a lot of the teachers in that school found their lives horribly disrupted. They were barraged by the media. All their lives changed, so they became, some of them, resentful, as well. So it t really has a ripple effect throughout the entire society.

ALLRED: It does. I`ve represented child abuse victims, but in addition, I formerly was a teacher before becoming a lawyer. And let me just say that 99.9 percent of all teachers, most of whom are women, I might add, understand and respect the boundaries that exist between adults and children and would never in a million years do anything like this.

But let`s call this what it is, Jane. This is not about having sex with a student; this is about predatory behavior. This is about being a sexual predator by the person in power preying on someone who is vulnerable, who is not in power, and taking advantage of that. That is what is wrong with this situation.

And it is a shame that the victim can`t get more support, because the victim does need support, needs it badly, needs counseling, needs the continued love and support of their family, which in this case it sounds like they`re getting. And that`s a good thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go to the phone lines. Sonya in Massachusetts, what`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, I love your show. You know...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll pass that on to Nancy.

CALLER: It`s hard for me to believe that all these teachers are crazy. Do you think that maybe some of them see all the media coverage of teachers in the past, and they just want attention and this is their way to get attention?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, defense attorney Joe Lawless, we see a lot of kooky behavior with people who are seeking attention and using the court system to get it. And the caller makes a very valid point. There could be a copycat effect.

I mean, this has been going on for years now. We know that this is a crime. It`s not something to be taken lightly. Yet you would think that these women, these teachers, would get the message that this is not acceptable behavior, but they don`t.

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But then, on the other side, you have Mary Kay Letourneau, who becomes a TV movie. I believe it was Debra LaFave who was interviewed on one of the morning talk shows and followed around by the host like a puppy dog. Some of them are treated like celebrities.

And Gloria is right: This isn`t about sex; it`s about power. And these young men are as much victims, but there`s a whole different social dynamic involved with a guy versus a girl, and it`s just approached differently. And as a result, the victims are going untreated and are left to lie fallow there while the defendants are treated like celebrities. It`s really unfortunate, and it`s completely inappropriate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re absolutely right. One person noted that every time Debra LaFave came into the court, she was treated like a runway model, every eye on her. She is a beautiful woman physically. But they get the kind of attention that is normally reserved for somebody who won an Oscar, or a Golden Globe, and she has not done so. What she`s done is committed a crime. Stacey, Arkansas, your question.

CALLER: Yes, I was trying to find out if they require psychological testing to get your teaching certificate?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I would believe that some kind of psychological testing would are required, but let`s go to the expert, Caryn Stark, clinical psychologist. Can anybody become a teacher?

STARK: No, you do have to have testing. But you don`t necessarily have to have psychological testing. You need to have an advanced degree and you pass an exam. It seems to me that psychological testing would be a wonderful thing to institute in this particular instance.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, maybe we need to have some kind of more stringent psychological testing that can catch the tendency of somebody to do something like this. But how could you ever catch the tendency of somebody to commit a crime before they`ve committed it when they have no previous criminal record, Paul Henderson, San Francisco deputy D.A.? That`s like pre-crime. That`s like that movie with Tom Cruise where they had a crystal ball and they could see who was going to commit crimes before they did it.

HENDERSON: It is. The better focus would be to look at some of these people when they re-offend. Because it`s not uncommon for people that have these psychological disorders to re-offend again and again and again. And the repercussions need to be tightened up so that, when these people are on parole, when these people are on probation, they don`t keep committing the same crimes again and again and again and victimizing our vulnerable members of society.

Because when they do, the sentences escalate such that, every time they offend, they should face more and more time and more severe punishments so it doesn`t keep happening. That`s the real focus.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what I think of when I look at this case? I also feel very, very sorry for the two children of the suspect. This Utah teacher is a mother of a 3-year-old girl and a 5-year-old girl. And she had to go back home and tell her two little girls, Mommy`s not going to see you for 90 days because she`s going to be in the clinker.

And this is going to haunt her little girls for the rest of their life, as well. So there are so many victims in this case, it`s almost unimaginable.

When we come back, a criminal defense attorney busted inside a Philadelphia courthouse. He is caught naked, naked with a child, and is now facing sex assault charges. The really shocking details, coming right up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. A story so shocking, it actually sounds made up. But Philadelphia police say it`s all too real in the city of brotherly love. A prominent defense attorney is accused of -- get this -- stripping naked in front of a 14- year-old girl and then masturbating in front of her.

And if that`s not horrifying enough, all of this allegedly happened inside the city`s criminal justice center. For the very latest on this outrageous case, let`s go straight out to David Gambacorta, a crime reporter for the "Philadelphia Daily News."

David, before you say anything else, take us, through step by step, what police say this 49-year-old defense attorney did in this girl`s presence.

DAVID GAMBACORTA, CRIME REPORTER: Hi, Jane. According to police records, on Monday, Mr. Charles and a 14-year-old girl walked into the criminal justice center when it was closed for the Martin Luther King holiday. They took an elevator to the third floor, where they entered into a conference room.

And according to police records, Mr. Charles wedged a chair against the door. According to the police, he asked the young girl if she would like to have sex with him. When she said no, he took his clothes off and began masturbating in front of her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And apparently they eventually became suspicious and barged in, and found him naked?

GAMBACORTA: Yes, that`s correct. Several deputy sheriffs began searching the building for Mr. Charles, because, again, it was closed for holiday, and they thought it was suspicious that he was there, especially with a young girl. And they did eventually break into the room and found him standing there, again, according to police, naked.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So investigative reporter Pat Lalama, they may well be the real heroes here, because they were alert. They noticed something suspicious. It didn`t add up. And instead of just saying, Well, that`s odd, they actually went proactively to seek out this man.

LALAMA: Well, what`s amazing, Jane, you`re so right, is their instincts. I mean, they did perfect police work and saying, "Well, wait a minute, it`s Martin Luther King Day. The courts aren`t open for official, you know, in-court business with judges, but lawyers will come and go, and some work was being done, emergencies were being handled."

And what`s interesting is that this -- he referred to the teenager as his god-daughter. It has since been discovered that, yes, he is a friend of the family, or he does have a relationship with the family. We`re not sure exactly what.

But now the mother of the teen is apparently concerned, because she`s worried that two other female members of the family could have been assaulted. And also, this guy has an interesting background, in that he`s been arrested over the years on numerous occasions of assault. How about indecent exposure? He was never convicted of those.

However, in 1991, I believe he was convicted, because he lied to the government and claimed he was doing some work with some juvenile defendants, and helping them in ways that allowed him to bill the state, but he really didn`t do the work. And so he did get a conviction and had to be on probation for that. He`s had a little shady record.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s got quite a history, let`s put it that way.

LALAMA: Yes, he does have quite a history. But, you know, on the more violent cases, or, you know, assault cases, it`s all been let go, from what I`ve been able to see.

Now, since then, he`s represented some big-time people, like Ol` Dirty Bastard, who was a famous rapper, and I believe Meldrick Taylor, who is a boxing champion, and has had quite the, you know, highlighted career in that regard.

But I have a feeling that, once the prosecution gets done with him, the state bar is going to go after him and he may not be doing too much law outside, or let`s say in the courtroom, maybe behind bars, though.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody deserves a presumption of innocence.

LALAMA: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Even this gentleman. He has only been arrested. He has not been convicted of anything at this point. We do have his attorney, Angelo Cameron, with us tonight, speaking exclusively to the NANCY GRACE show.

Got to hit you with the big question. The deputies say they found him naked inside this conference room, in the courthouse, with a 14-year-old girl huddled in the corner. How could there possibly be any innocent explanation for that?

ANGELO CAMERON, LARRY CHARLES DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, one, under the Constitution, obviously you`re innocent until proven guilty. And even in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, you know, there`s a strong presumption of innocence.

Nobody -- I was not there. You weren`t there. I haven`t been given any formal discovery, obviously, because it`s only been 48 hours since he was arrested. I haven`t done my own official investigation. Anybody can have allegations and charges against them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. But what about his criminal past, as well, in the sense that he was reportedly disbarred, although his license was reinstated back in 1996, after he pleaded guilty to tampering with public records and a criminal conspiracy in this case that involved phantom work for a youth program? And then there were previous incidents, back from 1979 and 1988, that were later dismissed or withdrawn. But, still, it`s not like he has an absolutely clean record here.

CAMERON: Well, all that says is that, one, whatever the board, our licensing disciplinary board, determines, that`s their determination. And they are the regulator of our profession here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

As far as the person who said the quote, they were just let go, a judge made a determination that some -- the evidence obviously was not there. There was not enough evidence to meet the elements of the crimes. Therefore, the charges were not processed or discharged or dismissed. So they weren`t just willy-nilly...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Defense attorney, well, we`re going to go to fellow Philadelphia Joe Lawless, a defense attorney, who is in Philadelphia. I understand that you have a newspaper headline to show us, to give you a sense of what this has created, in terms of a scandal in Philly.

LAWLESS: Yes. And, Jane, this is kind of what`s unfortunate, because I agree that Larry Charles should be presumed innocent. And this is no reflection on Dave. His article was completely factually accurate.

But this is the headline. This is what the tabloids are running with here. And that does fly in the face of the presumption of innocence. And I do want to correct one thing that I think Jane might have said.

Larry Charles wasn`t disbarred; he was suspended from the practice of law for 18 months, and it involved the theft of the munificent sum of $98. So to start giving this guy a lynch party on a background that`s not quite as bad as it`s being painted is a little premature. There`s some explaining that may have to be done here, but let`s be accurate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The sheriff`s deputies say they found him naked inside the court building with a 14-year-old girl. You`re a defense attorney. I mean, this is a defense attorney in the courthouse naked.

LAWLESS: Jane, the only thing I can say to you is, that`s what we know from having read the papers. And, again, as much as I respect my friend Dave, you`ve got to wait until it`s all over before you see what the story is. I`ll say two words that should ring a bell: Mike Nifong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s an interesting point. Mike Brooks, former D.C. police officer who served on the FBI terrorism task force, you know, there is that old he said-she said, but that doesn`t apply here because the sheriff`s deputies can get up and testify, "Hey, we walked in there and we saw him naked."

But I have to say that it`s also a great argument for cameras in the courthouse. We`ve heard so many arguments about cameras in the courthouse because of shootings and other things. This is a perfect example. This would be a completely open-and-shut case if there were cameras in that room.

BROOKS: Well, Jane, you know, I find it`s ironic, they were closed for Dr. King`s birthday. And that in and of itself is disgusting to me that this would happen on his birthday.

Secondly, they were closed, except for, ironically, protection from abuse orders and arraignments. And these deputies, they didn`t just go look for him, because they didn`t know where he was. They said, "Wait a minute, he said that she was there to post bond for somebody." What is a defense of finding him naked in that room when they had to force their way into that room? I would like to hear that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace.

We are talking about the allegedly naked defense attorney in Philadelphia with a 14-year-old girl. He allegedly masturbated in front of her, according to authorities.

Defense attorney Renee Rockwell, this lawyer has a very impressive biography. Temple University, Temple Law, masters degree in social work. And yet he is a defense attorney. No offense, but that means hanging out with some sleazy people, namely the people you represent. Does it rub off?

ROCKWELL: Well, I was talking to one of your producers, and I actually spend more time with police officers and prosecutors than I do with criminal defendants. So, I mean, we won`t talk about who we spend most of our time with.

But, again, this individual does have the presumption of innocence. And with his attorney by his side, sometimes the word of the day is "damage control." Don`t forget the state has to prove every element of this offense.

And you have to have a victim. You just have the officers coming in and seeing a naked man. The victim has to provide the rest. It`ll be interesting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it`s going to be very interesting. But it`s not just a he said-she said. These sheriff`s deputies say they went into that room, and that 14-year-old girl was huddled in a corner while that man was stark naked. We shall see. He has not been convicted yet, only charged.

Tonight, we remember Army Sergeant Jason Denfrund, just 24 from Cattaraugus, New York, killed in Iraq. A high school football star before joining the Army, Denfrund received multiple medals, including the Purple Heart. Denfrund had an infectious smile, his favorite song, Elton John`s "Tiny Dancer." A newlywed, he leaves behind a grieving widow, Melissa, a 6-year-old stepdaughter, Chloe, and Jayden, and his 7-month-old son. He is an American hero.

We want to thank all our guests tonight for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking these cases with us. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. See you right here tomorrow night 8:00 eastern. Have a safe evening.

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